Microsoft's draconian Windows 11 restrictions will send an estimated 240 million PCs to the landfill when Windows 10 hits end of life in 2025
Microsoft's draconian Windows 11 restrictions will send an estimated 240 million PCs to the landfill when Windows 10 hits end of life in 2025
But the progress must go on, right?
Microsoft, doing it's part to make the world a better place.
No it won't.
240 million grandmas, cheapskate businesses, and cash-strapped public schools will continue to use whatever operating system their computers already have, forever, until they break, security implications be damned.
This is a huge business opportunity for someone with the know-how. They should offer a consulting service that does the following:
- Catalogs the software your company is using.
- Identifies which ones have native Linux versions, which ones work well under WINE, and which ones will need to be replaced with either a different native application or an online equivalent.
- Installs and configures Linux with a Windows-like UI on your old systems, and gets them set up with the replacement software.
Offer a support contract that severely undercuts anything Microsoft is
gougingselling. Offer basic training, too.Anyone who does that can make bank.
Would also need to get a burner phone number w/ answering machine to take calls from 240 million grandmas, cheapskate businesses and cash-strapped public schools for any & all tech support questions until the end of time, because if there was an issue with system stability in any way whatsoever, or if the router went down or the printer stopped working, they'd assume it was the fault of 'the guy who changed everything'.
Linux is great & everything, but this sounds like a recipe for utter disaster, not a way to make an easy buck.
Anyone who does that can make bank.
See, the key flaw in your plan is expecting companies to shell out to upgrade their systems. Putting aside organizations who's infrastructure can't realistically transfer to a new system without scrapping it entirely, pretty much every business will run their systems until they have literally no other choice (ie it is functionally unusable/affecting sales) instead of "losing money" upgrading. MS stopping updates won't push them over that line, at least not for a while.
Thatās actually a decent idea if people are using boilerplate windows software. Unfortunately institutional software is unlikely to cross over, and even if similar software can be found to replace private usersā needs, there is going to be resistance to change. This doesnāt even touch anyone using specialized software. The resistance will be commensurate with the differences in workflow and usage between the windows and Linux software.
I mean, the whole point is people donāt want to change. The only way youād win people over easily is directly cloning their windows setup.
Companies won't pay. Even SMB.
There's way too much stuff that only runs on windows, their users are used to windows.
You're telling them to spend a lot of money to transition, and take on a lot of risk.
It just ain't gonna happen.
Look at the current VMware issue to see what companies will do.
I feel the issue is if you're successful with this idea and get on radar of Microsoft, they will make sure to snatch away all deals from you by bidding even lower. They have money to lose. Small firms generally don't.
ROFL, and for a half of that cost and none of the risk, companies will just drop in new windows computers and keep the status quo...
yeah, other than the obvious "haha-ing in Linux" (which.. I also use Linux) - the REAL answer is people will just keep using the outdated Windows until THAT computer dies it's natural death.
When that time comes, would that create a period of insane amounts of scams?
Yes.
Also third world countries where people can't afford to spend their yearly salary on a mouse.
I wish you were right. Instead what we will likely see is an increase in year to year E-waste until the majority is phased out into land fills.
I dunno, computers aren't like phones where your provider is offering you incentives to chuck your old one every 2 years. There'll be an increase of waste from businesses for sure, but I think most people don't really pay attention to their security updates and will just keep using their pcs until they need a newer one for personal reasons (playing newer games, old one bricked, etc)
0patch offers microcode patching for EOL windows systems, I have a subscription for my Win7 gaming box and will be getting one for my win10 daily driver, because FUCK win11.
It's a good company, they've won several bounties from Microsoft for 0-day fixes and have had their code published in official microsoft updates.
And tech-savvy windows users(those who need it) switch to windows 10 LTSC iot edition
I'm seriously thinking of trying Linux when Windows 11 is forced. My computer has the specs to run it, but I'm just tired of Windows and Microsoft.
Unless you run some really niche software or are a heavy gamer, you'll likely have no problems and enjoy it. Most software that you need for daily use has a FOSS equivalent that's equal or better. Usually those are also available straight from the package manager (if not there, then most likely Flatpak).
Just stick with a well supported distro like Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, or PopOS, and it'll be super easy.
I'm actually looking forward to the perfectly good Linux boxes that are bound to be popping up at yard sales or on ebay once that happens.
a heavy gamer
Why I am still hesitant to make the leap. Not just do I mostly use my PC for gaming but I have a tendency to jump into a new game for like 3 weeks and then off to the next like the horrid ADHD having fuck that I am. I don't want to possibly have to work to make a game work each and every time. I know its gotten a lot better about that but still. Convivence has me trapped yo.
Even heavy gamers are getting a much better experience on Linux these days (yay Proton!). There are a couple of anti-cheat systems that are still trouble some, but honestly if the developers don't want to to put in the much smaller amount of effort to make it work on Linux, I don't want to give them my money.
Sadly I have niche software and I'm a heavy gamer. But now it's becoming as much of a headache to deal with Windows threatening dumb upgrades that I might as well switch and fight with compatibility.
The more we do it, the more companies will be incentivised to make Linux work.
I'm kind of a power user.
Gaming. Multimedia (Video, Image, Audio). Application development. Web development. Getting into cybersecurity, so using a lot of VMs. Watching videos.
I've been making a Linux transition. So far, the stuff I still need to iron out:
-Adobe. Make it work somehow or replace. Can use it on a windows VM š¤·āāļø. Happy to replace because fuck em. Working through options.
-VST managers for digital audio workstation. Most aren't on Linux (spitfire audio, iZotope, IK multimedia, iLok). Haven't begun trying to make them work. I e heard most can be configured in WINE.
-old MIDI program not working. No audio for MIDI. One program works, another doesn't š¤
That's it. Everything else is working. Big challenges Ive had:
-bluetooth gaming controller took a lot of effort. Works great now.
-Epic games through heroic... Through steam on Linux... Through remote play on my phone... That was difficult. But it works!!
-remote desktop troubleshooting. Works fine now.
Oh and I can't get windows subsystem for Linux to work in my windows VM on my Linux machine. š¤·āāļø
My Win10 machine is an audio workstation (DAW) so I am curious how the migration to Linux will work out. Reaper has a Linux port so that should be OK. Hopefully all the VSTs will still work and Iāll have to check on my Focusrite Scarlett. I am not buying a new machine just to run this stuff as itās just a hobby.
Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, or PopOS
What about Arch? I was told:
mint is garbage. The only thing easier about mint or any of those "noob friendly" distros is the initial install
any time you want to do anything outside of its strict little ecosystem it becomes a massive headache
arch's wiki is unparalleled
Hahaha, right, right.
Most users would get lost on a Linux box, even with the truly great user-friendly distros today. I use a few for testing and things like LXC, and it's still frustrating at times - and I started with UNIX 35 years ago.
You're seriously over estimating the capability of most users.
People can't find controls in Windows when I guide them.
Iām seriously thinking of trying Linux when Windows 11 is forced.
Sorry for the uncalled advice, but if you're considering it, you might as well try it now. Specially in ways that don't limit your access to Windows, such as live USB and dual boot (Windows and Linux in the same machine, at the same time). So if you do decide "I'm ditching Windows", in the future, you'll have an easier time doing so.
Yup. Donāt wait until the W11 upgrade is imminent. Start it now, so you have a year of experience under your belt and can help your friends switch too when theyāre forced to upgrade.
Pretty much all computers have the specs to run linux. Of some flavor.
The only thing stopping me from switching over to Mint is procrastination.
The hardest thing about Linux Mint is installing all of your software. It's daunting even for very established users.
I moved from Ubuntu to LM a few months ago and I've enjoyed it.
Do yourself a favor and do it now. Maybe then you'll be able to help others move to Linux who haven't done so before.
I have switched a dell laptop that windows 10 didn't support to pop os. (It was 7 years old) My whole family has used it for a few years to do everything without any issues. Ironically I have had problems with the Pop OS install on my newer more powerful machine.
Yeah I'm not as much of a fan of PopOS as I thought I'd be. I have it on my daily driver laptop, and every system update seems to introduce some wacky bug/glitch or another. Nothing major, just random small annoyances that usually get fixed in the next update.
It dual boots Pop and Debian, and Debian performs flawlessly. It's a Thinkpad, so Linux support has always been fantastic. I'm thinking of just dropping the PopOS partition and going back to my original love, Debian.
Then don't hesitate! You could easily install both side by side, in case you need some Windows exclusive software.
... Linux can run on a potato.
There are multiple distros with live-cd (or usb drive) where you can boot to a desktop environment without installing anything if you want to try them.
Start trying Linux now using WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux). It's a great way to dip your toe in the water, and your computer can run it today.
Or you could try Tiny11, which is basically Windows 11 but much less Microsofty š
Yes, because normal people always throw PCs away when they stop getting security updates.
When Chrome/Firefox stop getting updates and websites stop working they will
So 5-10 years after Windows EOL
So at least 3 more years, plus however long it takes for website makers to use features exclusive to the very latest versions.
The only stuff that I know no longer works and is in common use is TLS. That's the only reason some of our customers updated from XP.
But that will only happen when the user base falls, so enough people will have had to move on organically, for popular tools like web browsers to give up.
Firefox didn't end windows 7 support until July of last year. 3 years after eol for 7 and when 7's market share among windows was around 3 percent.
And just eol'ing Firefox doesn't immediately break it, you will have at least a couple years before the browser becomes functionally useless.
Slack is already warning of eol on 10
Companies probably will.
Some of the biggest businesses in the world still run legacy systems somewhere in their organization. I work for one of the top 5 retail data processors in the world and we have a handful of ancient legacy apps that can't run on anything more modern than Server 2012.
And almost none of them take the proper precautions for vulnerable systems.
I mean for fuck's sake, Office Depot's Southeastern regional headquarters's HVAC system is (well as of 2019 when I last checked) is controlled by a truly decrepit Windows 2000 box THAT IS NETWORK CONNECTED!
Hack the planet?! Finally.
My guess is that Microsoft will notify the users often enough, that's something we don't know in the smartphone space, we'll see what happens
Routers put paid to a lot of that. Early modems were like sticking your dick directly into the internet. I remember when Blaster came out and suddenly we all had to learn what a firewall was.
Hard to believe we just sat there with every port open to the net like that.
it's not even that retarded an argument! If you don't think about it, it could appear to make perfect sense instead of being bullshitese for a problem that isn't real but taps into moral outrage about how wasteful every day is under capitalism.
As I've been noticing it more across lemmy, what word did you type that got changed to "removed"?
The one I've seen is a swear but most others aren't censored, and it seems to be an automated thing.
Edit: I suspect I figured it out so that's at least 2 words, one a debatable slur and one an obvious swear but with no socio-political implications otherwise.
Thatās a lot of new Linux computers.
I want to believe.
lol no, there's several very valid and pressing reasons linux's desktop marketshare is terrible.
No Nvidia for me.
Once upon a time, updating your hardware every couple of years was essential. Your new hardware was a lot faster for normal use, and everyone benefitted.
Over time, however, people could wait longer between updates, as new hardware didn't impact daily use all that much.
The powers that were grew displeased, and then decided to force people to update more often. Newer hardware had shorter lifespans, software forced newer hardware, software as a service became king.
The End?
You forgot the part where we all return to poverty so the rich can stay rich in the face of climate change.
That story isn't written... yet. The future can be changed, if enough people drive that change (valve is working wonders here).
Well you see, they learned their lesson from Windows 7 and having to support it for years longer than they intended to.
They know the same thing will happen for 10, because they are literally forcing a bunch of hardware out, even though all of it can technically run Windows 11 and just don't have a TPM 2.0 chip. They made this choice, this was a business decision and they know it's coming.
So what did they learn? To not give it away for free. Now they're rolling out a program to charge consumers for access to extended updates for Windows 10.[^1]
Back in the Windows 7 days, they only did that for corporations, extended updates with a cost attached. Now you, the consumer, get the joy of paying for these updates as well.
Not only are they purposefully creating trash, they're also squeezing people for money in the process.
They're doing exactly what they did with Windows 7, this time they just plan to charge you for the convenience.
Stay classy, Microsoft.
[^1]: "Individuals or organizations who elect to continue using Windows 10 after support ends on October 14, 2025, will have the option of enrolling their PCs into a paid ESU subscription."
You forgot the "best" part, which is that requiring TPM 2.0 is purely self-serving for Microsoft in that it serves no purpose but to make it more difficult to run non-Windows OSs on the hardware in the future.
Nobody needs a TPM except for the copyright cartel trying to destroy computer owners' property rights.
Oh I mean, I thought that was implied, but yeah, go off about it, it fucking sucks!
EDIT: In response to your edit. ACKSHUALLY the TPM requirement is a big deal for corporations, because it does help increase corporate security. The thing is, the average user doesn't actually need that extra security so much and will likely never use it so making it a requirement for the consumer-level Windows is abject bullshit.
I don't know why, but your post made me question if TPM 2.0 expansions outside the processor are a thing. Turns out they are as long as your board supports them. I was just able to get one for mine for $25.
Yep, before I upgraded recently, my motherboard had a port for TPM, but it was only able to support TPM 1.0, so it was still SOL.
Old box is now running Linux and a handful of network services.
I honestly don't have an issue paying for updates of EOL software. But I also grew up in a time when that was normal. I remember paying for iOS 3.
It says it'll be free for Window 365 users. Ie. 70 bucks and that includes office.
Obviously it's not great, but it's better than adobe.
Windows 95 cost two hundred 30 years ago.
Consumers can also pay for extended Windows 7 updates, of course. I also don't see why just that (consumers can also pay) part is bad and much worse than a stupid requirement to force users to pay.
I installed linux. I only use browser and vlc and it works great. I am not buying a new machine when old one works just fine.
me too. 90% of what I need to do at home I can achieve on Linux, and the other 10% I just do on my work PC. And I'm learning Linux scripting which is expanding my computational abilities. I should have made this switch a decade ago.
This is the problem the PC market is truly wrestling with. The processor capabilities and memory needs of modern personal computing has basically maxed itself out. Any and all upgrades to data processing are fairly minute and therefore older PCs are remaining completely acceptable for far longer than they were just 15 years ago.
I don't think most people would be throwing their PCs out at all. Computers are a big expensive purchase, and people don't know that they shouldn't be running an out-of-date system. So neither Linux nor Windows 11 is happening, people would just happily go on with Windows 10 unless MS outright bricks their devices. Same for small companies. I would only be concerned about this for large corporations.
Again, Install Linux, get rid of Microsoft shit.
Yeah, because Linux runs everything!
Except... No, it doesn't. I love Linux for specific uses, but let's be real: it's not a valid replacement for windows yet. Not for ALL types of users.
When it is, then I'll be out on every street corner with you with a sign. But until then, can we not gaslight all of Lemmy?
No.
Linux runs just-about-everything. Indeed, that does not cover 100% of windows users, but it damn well includes 95% of windows users who use windows for email and word processing and gaming, all of which runs perfectly fine or better on Linux.
Once those are on Linux, I'll shut up indeed but until then, here I am. I'm sick and tired of people happily giving money to a scam company who got where they are by lying and cheating, and then these same people asking me to help them out with their windows shit.
How is he 'gaslighting' people, exactly? What's your understanding of that word?
If you can't/ won't upgrade to Linux, at least upgrade to Tiny10. TinyXP is still getting updates. The "Tiny" versions of Windows rip out all the extemporaneous crap that Microsoft put into Windows that makes it a bad OS
AFAIK, there won't ever be a Tiny11 distro, there's just too much shit to rip out of the registry to make that possible
AFAIK, there won't ever be a Tiny11
For us Linux users it's just a fire sale. Diet cheap PCs incoming.
None of these PCs need to go to landfill. Linux
Tell that companies who would have to convert their software and / or re-train their employees.
Companies can get support for much longer though. They won't be affected by this issue as much as people think.
Eventually when Microsoft will go too far, this is what will happen. Companies already have to do all this training, and given the right OS and IT support there's plenty of Windows like solutions that would be immediately intuitive for people who just browse and use a few specific programs
Ebay is going to be great for a few years though
You're right, none need to go.....
....but most people are too tech illiterate to even know there's an option outside windows. Hell, I dated a girl who though windows was the operating system on apple devices (she used the term windows and operating system interchangeably)
Most of those PC are business. People will continue using windows 10 past that date.
Sounds to me like an opportunity for Linux and Linux derivatives.
I'll tell you hwat!
Windows 11 can suck my stinky cock. Windows will successfully force my LAZY ass to Linux. I am already testing the waters with my laptop.
Take a bath. And get a job.
(but yeah, eleven is awful)
Lol Vista and povety is what made me switch
What's wrong with Windows 11? I use it on my gaming machine and my work laptop and it seems fine. Good, even.
It is straight up incompatible with older hardware.
And that's before accounting for the bloat and telemetry that they have in it, and the shitty changes to the UI, etc.
Hello, it's me, a landfill
Those systems are going to be dirt cheap Linux boxes in the very near future
Or at least a couple will be for me
Cool, a prime opportunity to scalp even more old machines by the end of the decade once they become valuable.
There's a limit to how many selfhosted servers you can need in your home.
Nonsense. You can always use more seedboxes.
I'm looking forward to the large availability of cheap old machines.
I've been saying for years I was going to move back over to Linux. This will be the push I need. Sadly my Dad is bad at computers and will need Windows 11 when using 10 becomes a problem. I'm throwing this at my brother since I was the one who got our Dad a Windows 10 computer. FU Microsoft, you peaked at XP.
I was in your place when Win7 died (Win 7 was the true peak, fite me :p) and made the switch myself, then.
Also linux is easy, probably easier, for parents to use. They don't game or do anything complicated, all they gotta do 99.999999% of the time is just load the web browser to do whatever they are doing. I have several astonishingly stupid family members running linux, with less issues than when they had windows.. So maybe you can swap out your dads OS without much issue. Just use a distro that has a more windows-y interface with a start button and the bar across the bottom.
I could see the argument that 7 was peak, but I think it was XP. My Dad pretty much downloads pictures from his phone and browser the web. One issue is some of the sites he uses are set up weird. That why he finally allowed me to upgrade him from 7 to 10. He complained about certain sites, which I really didn't pay attention to which, would give warning about browser being out of date, then the sites refused to even load. That is when he allowed me to upgrade. They probably would work but I don't want to risk issues with any sites having problems with Linux.
Maybe a ChromeOS machine? It doesn't get more simple to use than that.
I got a Chromebook years ago to have to write when out, but now they won't update it and to install Linux I have to flip a physical switch on the other side of the motherboard.
My Dad gets upset and let's me know when Yahoo changes their homepage. (Yes, he still uses yahoo mail.) He has a flip phone and still struggling with it.
Linux doesn't require you to be good at computers.
I don't know about that. I recently switched from Mac OS to Linux Mint. I'm savvy enough to understand what I'm doing for the most part, but I have not had to use the terminal so much in ages just to get things working the way I need them to. The average person using a CLI all the time? I don't see it happening.
Even the install was not an easy task. I had to go into the BIOS, change a setting, install it, go back into the BIOS, change the setting back, then it worked.
I know everyone here wants people to switch over to Linux, but there is still a higher level of experience needed than the average person who just wants to watch Netflix is capable of or interested in learning.
my Dad is bad at computers
Have you looked at Endless OS? It depends on what your father uses his computer for, but if it's mostly web browsing, it could be nice for him.
I liked 7. 10 is OK.
Linux about to pop off
Hope not
I mean, I don't agree, but I can see negative knock-on effects of Linux getting more popular... like more viruses and malware being developed for Linux and Linux noobs getting widely infected because Linux kind of requires you to know enough about your own system to secure it yourself while Microsoft does a lot of the security for you out of the box.
In my experience, UFW isn't enabled out-of-the-box. Windows has a default Firewall enabled out of the box.
So yeah, unless Linux is quickly made a lot more user-friendly in terms of security, the growth in Linux can be seen as a bad thing.
The only people that will really suffer from this is businesses. They will have to buy W11, and they will need to get supported hardware. However, businesses usually have rolling upgrades in place in the IT and have probably rolled out many already.
As for home users, with each newer generation, they become more tech savy. I can tell you now, this won't affect as many people as you imagine.
- 1: W11 is free to download from M$. You can choose whether or not to buy a licence. W11 cracks already exist, M$ is still using key management services, so something like KMSpico still work. There are also tons of activator scripts on github (lol, since M$ owns this!).
- 2: Grab a copy of RUFUS. Use it to take the W11 image and remove all restrictions, and dump it to USB.
- 3: ???
- 4: Profit.
As for home users, with each newer generation, they become more tech savy
Pretty sure the opposite is true at this point.
I think it feels like this because we have so many more users now than 10 or 20 years before. So the percentage of tech literate users has declined while the amount tech savy people increases. with the pool of users being satiiated i think we will have an increase in the percent of tech savy users again (as old users die).
Or, you know, finally just start switching to Linux, get rid of the Microsoft shit, finally. It'll take you a while, but in the long run it'll be cheaper and more reliable.
W11 can run unlicensed indefinitely with the only downside being inability to customise the desktop background and a nag at the bottom right corner. They prefer to have the users rather than not. Though not sure re limitations in joining domains and the like.
I had no idea this existed, thanks! My hardware is right at the cutoff for Windows 11 support but still runs strong. Iāll have to play around with this but it should allow me to squeeze a few more years out of it. The windows 10 expiration is definitely making me want to try Linux though.
A fraction of those "old" computers will use Linux. Perhaps we'll reach 5% desktop market share soon thanks to Microsoft.
Linux hit 3% market share in June of 2023 and just recently passed 4%. It'll likely hit 5% months before Win10's EOL.
It's not microsuck's fault that linux desktop share is so abysmal
No linuxbro is willing to accept that linux will never be for the average user.
You had your chance in the late 00s but instead of focusing the Open Source community on a handful of user friendly use-case specific distros everyone just split off to work on 50million distros all of questionable difference, installation methods, update procedures, making searching forums for a solution outside of a narrow band of updates per specific distro absolutely useless.
And don't even get me fucking started on linux community elitism because you really don't want to hear what I have to say about that and I have PARAGRAPHS to say about that.
Get your shit together, make a single LTS distro that doesn't rely on repositories that arbitrarily depreciate core packages, and can install on 95% of retail hardware first try, INCLUDING laptops, then maybe we'll revisit this.
Until then, linux doesn't deserve a desktop share outside of hobbyists.
I mean, a lot of people encourage others to use linux online because we like linux and think it is good but... Many of us do not really care if it goes mainstream or not, it really isn't important. There are enough people in the ecosystem to keep it alive as it is.
For me, I activelly do not want Linux to be big, we will lose many of the advantages, especially in the security and privacy area, if Linux gains more traction.
No "linuxbro" is willing to accept it will never be for the average user? Many of us more than accept and don't want Linux to be that ;)
Get your shit together, make a single LTS distro that doesnāt rely on repositories that arbitrarily depreciate core packages, and can install on 95% of retail hardware first try, INCLUDING laptops, then maybe weāll revisit this.
Linux distros are not a monolith. It's not made by one single entity, but instead assembled from various projects runs by different people and companies. All the distros do are assembling them into a single system and add their own special sauces on top. How are you going to propose to unify all those diversities? Rallying everyone behind a single company like Red Hat? We all know what would happen when one company get to control the whole ecosystem.
In my opinion, having multiple distros competing on features is the best things that can happen to us. When one popular distro lost their way and start to alienate their users, there will be other distros those users can choose from. Imagine what would happen if there is only one distro and it starts to get shitty like what windows is doing right now.
yay i can finally get a good laptop on ebay in 2025! š¹
"Windows 7 appears to still be running on at least 100 million machines, despite Microsoft ending support for the operating system a year ago"
--Tom Warren. Jan 6, 2021.
https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/6/22217052/microsoft-windows-7-109-million-pcs-usage-stats-analytics
Maybe the landfill won't be overstuffed as quickly as expected.
See also
"Monthly market share held by Windows operating system for desktop PCs worldwide from January 2017 to November 2023, by version" https://www.statista.com/statistics/993868/worldwide-windows-operating-system-market-share/
It's a dwindling effect, not just instant abandonment.
Fun fact whenever I go back to my parents place I still see their old Windows 7 desktop alive and well for over 10 years and they don't care it just works
More people will switch to Linux once and for all.
Techies? Probably. Your average user? They will keep using windows 10. Just like theyāve been using XP, Vista, and 8(.1) wayyyyy past EoL.
Yeah, this is the more likely scenario.
It's not just consumers, a large proportion of the CNC machine industry still runs it's machine operating system on windows XP for what they claim to be "reliability". But I call bullshit, they just don't want to spend more money on software development.
Unfortunately they wont.People will rather use an unsecure Windows version than try something new.
Most people actually don't even know you can change what OS came with the computer. They think Windows is part of the computer. So they happily accept the idea that Windows 11 needs a new computer. They will probably use windows 10 wayyyyyy past EOL until the hardware itself fails, and/or just buy a new computer with windows 11. Most don't know Linux exists or that they can install it. They think they need a "linux computer". And then searching "download linux" on google or going "linux.com" (like I've seen many people do) doesn't help people very much to be honest...
More people will switch to Linux once and for all.
lol, so 2025 will truly once and for all be the year of the linux desktop? do you like...ever learn history? should try.
I doubt it, but some will.
The great LINUX uprising of 2025!!!
Not quite 2025, but: https://lemmy.nz/post/7859245
Keep me posted.
And thanks for the link to the images!
Not enough apple PCs in those.
Meanwhile Apple does this every few years and nobody cares.
Technically, they do this every year.
Just thought an old MacBook to put Linux on. Thing is almost 10yrs old and still has OS support from Apple Thatās not too bad imo.
Chromebooks are the really fucking villain. 3-4 yrs and itās off to the landfill. What the fuck?
how? my macbook pro is seven years old, and the latest macOS i could get is two major versions behind. I've tried installing linux and apparently it is a generation that is particularly troubled, with an endless list of broken things curated on github. eventually bad Bluetooth- and no internal audio-support was a showstopper to keep using it
Perhaps because their expensive computers are nowhere near as widespread as Windows ones.
What are you talking about? Apple devices maintain their resale value for years.
I'm getting super tired of Microsofts OS as a service. There is absolutely no reason to make operating systems obsolete.
I built a new PC last year and bought a copy of Windows 11. Holy moly the login process required so much bullshit that I skipped through. It also every few days tries to get me to go through it again. After learning about all the Spyware and other bullshit I decided to just take the plunge back into using Linux as a main OS.
A couple of years ago I was trying to reinstall Windows 10 without Internet. I hadn't bought a switch for that room yet so ended up having to unplug another computer so Windows "Special Snowflake" 10 would let me a little easlier set up the admin and user.
This isn't a problem if you're still using Windows 7! ;-)
There are a hell lot of other problems.
I don't think eol is your worst concern on windows 7
Reject Windows, emabrace Linux and FOSS Software
Why would you send 240 million PCs to the landfill when you can install Linux on all of them?
Sadly most users don't know Linux even exists, or don't know how to install it or don't even think about trying to. Many people legit don't even know they can change what OS came with the computer. They think its "part of the computer" like an iPhone or iPad. They just accept their fate and buy a new PC. Or ignore the warnings and keep using windows 10 until the hardware itself fails.
Sadly, you are spittin' facts! I just wish people were more into understanding stuff they are using. Like... I know people don't choose what interests them, but imagine how cool it would be if everyone looked into Linux and shit and at least knew it existed and that they can put it on their old computers.
Fuck microsoft, on the bright side thing of all the cheap 2nd hand hardware
This really isn't anything noteworthy, and the headline would be roughly true each time Windows has had a major OS upgrade/release. Every new Windows release has higher base requirements than the last one.
The W10 requirements were almost identical to the W7 requirements. There might've been some edge cases but in general, anything that ran 7 could run 10.
Wine + proton/valve has made it very easy to run most anything windows related nowadays. I would expect this to help make Linux gain market share.
I'm still on the fence if gaining market share is a good thing ultimately, but I'm hoping to see it play out.
Yeah Helldivers 2 is an example of a game that is mindblowing to me that it runs at all. If this were 2021 the process would be something like:
Download Doitsu-jin's DXVK from Github...
Download some scripts Joshua Ashton painstakingly created from Github šø to get GameGuard to work...
Get one very specific version of Glorious Eggroll's Wine "fork" with patches.
Try 5 different launch options, Winetricks, and cross fingers that you get more than just the sound.
Every update would need to get a new version of the script fork or introduce a new workaround. Those that use Lutris/PlayOnLinux would hopefully have their scripts updated within 2 days if lucky.
Fast forward to now: Click Play and everything is set up. Hot damn.
I've thrown older games at proton and wine and have made them work. Meantime the same game will work on Windows 10 with heavy modifications and does not work in 11.
Also at work, we are dealing with a legacy app that runs... everything? Or at least just about. It works in Windows 10 but has some bugs in 11. I'm tempted to see if wine can fix the issue lol.
Microsoft doing its* part
I feel like MS could avoid everyoneās gripes by simply not charging for their security update program. 7 to 13+ years is going to more than cover when most people wouldāve upgraded anyway.
Thatās not how software works. Maintaining an OS until the end of time is a real problem.
Should they be maintaining the beloved windows xp still?
For real. I would expect this separate to have a marginally better understanding of software development than your average Joe but I've been quite disappointed in this thread.
Maintaining software is extremely expensive when it's as expansive as this. We're talking hundreds of millions per month for something like Windows just in salaries. Long term support has to be financed, that's the dirty reality, people have to be paid to do the work.
Agreed. Iām just looking at the machines that were purchased at the launch of Win 11, but might not have had the proper hardware to transition off 10. I would assume that computers on a that cusp will mostly support 11, but if the extended updates were free, it would ensure those machines would have had 7 years of security updates - which seems like a reasonable lifespan for a computer these days.
Making those updates free would also mean computers that were 13+ years old were also getting security updates, so maybe my recommendation is overkill.
At some point you just need to move on and stop taking customer service calls from people with old hardware.
The whole point of charging for it is to incentivise people to install Win11, imo. They want to avoid what happened with XP/7, where people clung to it for years.
"Windows 10 is unsupported and you will probably get scary viruses, but don't worry, you can pay our security subscription or you can download Windows 11 for FREE right now!"
Basically, yeah. I know they got caught with their pants down in regards to windows 7 and its extended updates, but considering everything about the Windows 11 cutoff is totally arbitrary, it feels pretty shitty to also have to pay for upgrades after being arbitrarily fucked out of using the next operating system.
Let's not mention the extended update service that people can buy for three years and that will make the oldest incompatible CPU 10 years old at that point...
Or the fact that people don't even realize or care that they don't get updates anymore...
Let's not mention the extended update service that people can buy for three years and that will make the oldest incompatible CPU 10 years old at that point...
What a weird way to say that the OS they bought will stop being supported on their 7 year old CPU unless they pay a subscription.
On a bit more serious way, it's a bit of a slap in the face that, you could buy W10, in theory as a single payment, with no announced EOL, and now they say that even though they are going to keep working on security updates, you have to pay extra for it.
I would have respected more of there was no extended period. This way they are encouraged to have higher W11 requirements, so that they can earn more with OEM licenses and subscriptions. And given the nature of the OS and telemetry, they are extremely informed about the install base, so it is a very calculated decision.
Gotta get my finances in order by then so I can buy all the "obsolete" computers I want
By looking at data from statcounter, both windows 7 and xp had dropped support when they were at around 3% and 0,5% of global usage, respectively. This time, Microsoft plans to drop support for windows 10 next year, but it's still on 67% of usage. Either I'm missing something here, or they're going a very weird route...
Go ahead. Drop support for Windows 10. I stopped your mandatory updates months ago.
You cannot hurt me any longer.
I still have a box running 7. People around here act like it's the end of the world.
"Oh no, security, updates, blah blah!"
I've had 1000x more problems cause by updates than being hacked. And I've been using this stuff since DOS 4.x, Windows 1.0, etc.
I know people tire of the "just use Linux" suggestion, but c'mon man...
You're using a 15 year old OS that reached EoL over 4 years ago because the company that made it completely enshittified the next 3 major releases of the OS (and counting). You know Microsoft isn't going to reverse course and make a good OS again. You're just creating an even worse problem for yourself by running outdated, insecure code while the rest of the world moves forward.
Installing and learning how to use Linux is arguably the saner option, but if that's not something you're willing to face, at least plan on buying a Mac as your next computer instead of permanently committing yourself to deprecated software, or forcing yourself to accept enshittification because that's the only upgrade path you're familar with...
FWIW W10 Enterprise LTSC is good until 2032
Good thing there a myriad of other Linux distros that run everything 90% of home users need.
just use linux instead.
why are people allergic to
windowslinux?Gaming is the primary driver behind my PC choices by a humongous margin. I'm not really concerned about imvasive anti-cheat software, I don't want to tinker with settings, I want to turn on my computer and play video games. That means I use Windows.
As someone who just installed Linux Mint as a test and uses their machine mostly for gaming:
Linux is perfectly fine for that, too. I had one minor issue that was fixed by plugging a cord into a different plug on my machine and have otherwise had 0 issues getting things to run on the Linux partition of my system.
I actually have seen mostly better performance in the realm of about 10fps better per game than the Win 10 install on the same hardware
Spent less time tinkering with the settings (done via GUI that makes more sense than windoes' 15 different settings menus) than I never have in any version of Windows, synched my firefox over, boom.
Not gonna say Linux is perfect for everything but it does seem a lot of people think it's harder/worse than it is by a mile
That doesn't compute here. Like I have literally 0 problems with Windows. That's certainly not been my experience with Linux. Oh bought a new drawing tablet, nah that won't work. Oh need to update for firmware on a device, yeah better have windows. Oh you bought a recent printer, better not use Linux.
Same I dual boot, Linux for most things windows for games and a few other things which I find easier on windows.
I don't think allergic is the word you were looking for.
I get the joke, but lots of people, me included, start to understand why people pay so much for a Mac. It's not the hardware, it's not having to deal with Windows.
Hmm, I dunno maybe because of the elitist community, or the massively fractured distro ecosystem where everyone suggests a different entry point with zero meaningful consensus, or the sporadic driver availability that makes using a laptop GPU an exercise in suffering?
Or all of the above? Probably that last one.
I'm an IT professional with 3 decades of experience, including admin work on linux and unix boxes, and I've been repeatedly trying to go Linux as my daily driver for 15 years and so far every time I have tried it has stalled out in screaming bloody frustration.
And EVERY time I make a post like this, some yahoo comes along and says something like 'Well acktshually GPU support is so much better now why don't you just code your own driver oh you haven't spent 5 years memorizing these 2000 tech references well I can't help you if you don't want to learn'
Hm, also an IT professional with over 2 decades of experience. Most of your points were true except GPU shit is easy now. I've been daily driving arch for the past 9 years, and gaming on it. It's not perfect but it works well. Even some games work better in it. There are certain software categories that will be problematic, such as CAD, but you can do most anything else easily enough. For 80% of the population that needs it's for some games and just a web browser it works fucking great. It's been an awesome web browser OS since forever too. Most people just use what comes with their computer and don't want to figure out how to install something. Most people are used to a thing and they don't like change.
My father in law has Windows 7 machines that he uses for scientific work that he refuses to update. His solution is to prevent them from connecting to the internet. Unfortunately not willing to try modern Linux.
That's a valid use case though. At my work we had machines running XP up until a couple years ago because they were purpose built and weren't connected to the internet. There was no reason to upgrade until the entire tool was upgraded.
Yes. But to be fair they would have ended up there anyway.
I'd guess that's sooner than needed and that means more waste
I don't know if you noticed but a major part of our capitalistic hellhole is forced obsolescence.
To us more waste means the planet dies quicker, to the execs, more waste means more churnover profit.
And guess who makes the rules for corporate behavior? Not us for certain.
I've got a computer with a copy of XP on it that still runs. Not connected to the Internet anymore, but it still functions as a computer otherwise.
My PC isn't Windows 11 ready. That's why I bought a raspberry pi, and am running android now. If I feel like resurrecting the old machine, I'll run LMDE or something.
So far, I haven't detected any negative consequences.
So does anyone have a good strategy for transferring non giant things? Like I have a ton of unorganized pictures, documents, videos dating back to my 2009 1TB HDD that still works.
I think I want to run Debian mostly because I don't know any other build well. Well RHEL, but I want to keep it similar to the Steam Deck as I can
Dump it into a NAS. Synology makes a decent 2-drive NAS that is easy to maintain. They have a decently long lifecycle and even upgrading hardware is usually just moving the drives to the new unit and powering it on.
1TB is easy, a sata to usb 3.0 adapter is like $10 and will transfer all that data in a few hours. If you are more patient just setup the drive as shared in windows and transfer it over the network. I just copied about 7TB a few weeks ago to a new NAS over the network and I had it done over the weekend.
Keep it on the old 1TB hdd and buy a sata to usb cable or usb conversion kit?
If you want to play games, then Debian isn't that good of a choice because of the outdated packages. I'd suggest getting a new SSD though. Your HDD is already pretty old and slow and could potentially fail soon, so you might as well get some fresh storage. Makes it easy to test distros too until you found something satisfactory, at which point you can transfer over your old data and eventually format your old HDD into some sort of backup drive I guess.
At least it'll do wonders for the used market, hopefully.
Ah, the WIntel cartel is at it again. Planned obsolescence.
The incompatible hardware is more than seven years old at this point.
The problem is that that hardware, and older, is still perfectly capable of preforming modern desktop tasks. I have a 12 year old Athlon FX 8320 with 32GB RAM that works great, not the most efficient processor in terms of energy but runs everything well, yet it's not supported. Honestly I don't give a shit about Winblows, I work with Linux (system administrator) and I only use Win10 for some gaming. That said, I have a newer Ryzen 9 5950X with 128GB RAM to work with virtualization, and it will stay on Win10 till no longer being sustainable.
This is why I switched over to Mac back in 2022. I knew that I didn't want to move forward with Windows but had to get a new computer anyways. I already have an iPhone and a Mac Mini M1 was only $700. Thanks Microsoft for forcing a Windows user of 30 years away from your OS.
From the frying pan into the fire.
"This is fine." intensifies.
Mac don't stop supporting hardware on their prior OS's?
Indeed, Intel khm khhhm hhmk
You might enjoy Asahi Linux
If I had an android phone I would prob use Linux without a doubt. But having the iPhone and Mac ecosystem integration is important. At least I know Apple will wonāt force updates on my computer and makes updates that makes sense. Tired of Microsoft throwing shit at the wall in terms of user experience
I see a lot of people deny articles about "e-waste" calling them clickbait headlines and such. While I do agree there is a clickbait problem, I have to take it into consideration when I'm witnessing the company I work for right now tossing all the office computers in a pile to smash the hard drive. They just got all new computers a year and a half ago, and these are pretty good for an office workhorse. I thought it might be because of some weird HP contract or something, so I asked. But no, turns out some of them can't upgrade to 11, and they must all go in the dumpster. "HP won't take them back and it's easier to just get all new ones." I've heard similar reports from other companies in the area.
Again I do agree there is a clickbait problem, but I think we need to realize that Microsoft and companies like HP know exactly what they are doing to keep the money flowing in.
I installed Tiny11 on my ancient potato of a laptop to extend its life without having to do without the easy compatibility of Windows OR deal with the bloat and other bullshit Microsoft forces on you.
So far it's accomplished all of that admirably while being as lightweight and stable as Lubuntu, the Linux distro I had it running before!
Btw, this might be relevant to your interests as well and though it might sound like it, none of the things mentioned and linked in this comment are in any way illegal š
Isn't this the same company that toyed with Xbox One power settings to "help offset carbon emissions"?
This seems like a non-event. I believe the only real difference is a TPM, but it looks like Microsoft has been requiring that since 2016. So by Windows 10 EOL, PCs without that will be 9 years old. Sure, they still have some use as Linux servers, like a Raspberry Pi does, but come on: 9 years?
since July 2016 Microsoft has actually required TPM 2.0 support on all new PCs that run any version of Windows 10 for desktop (Home, Pro, Enterprise, or Education)
I'm not defending Microsoft here but, the problem in this case isn't Microsoft, there's no reason a person can't educate themselves enough to move away from Windows. If you have access to a PC, you more than likely have access to the internet and there's no shortage of information online.
Yes what Microsoft is doing is negligent. But the consumer can't be completely blameless.
Iām not defending Microsoft here but, the problem in this case isnāt Microsoft
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I am not defending scammers but grandma and grandpa do have access to the internet. There are tons of resources to educate yourself on how avoid being scammed.
What scammers are doing is illegal but grandma and grandpa are not blameless.
What Microsoft is doing isn't illegal lmao
"I'm not defending rapists but there's no reason women can't educate themselves on how to make it so they're less likely to be raped.
Yes what rapists are doing is bad. But the person being raped canāt be completely blameless."
Iām not defending rapists but thereās no reason women canāt educate themselves on how to make it so theyāre less likely to be raped.
Yes what rapists are doing is bad. But the person being raped canāt be completely blameless.
thanks for comparing requiring a tpm chip to rape. adds flavor.
I don't know how men being trash is relevant here. It not hard to learn I don't understand what everyones problem is. If I know a product is bad and I keep using It, that's my fault.
While it is true all information is available, it is not feasible for a person to educate themselves on all aspects of life to the point that would, in case of OSes, make them see Linux as an alternative and render them able to operate Linux without any issues.
We know the value of this knowledge, and we focused on that front. Someone else is great at stitching and can create great sustainable clothes, avoiding the trap modern industry gets us into. Someone else is a hacky mechanic, and can fix even modern cars themselves, and knows which ones to avoid etc. etc.
Are we to blame for not knowing everything?
We have to come from the current situation, and, as things stand, most people are not aware of Linux as real desktop alternative as opposed to "hacky server thingy". Heck, for many Windows is the way PC's work, a weird magical word to describe whatever computer software they see. That's just the mainstream narrative, one we heavily rely on in other ways.
That's not taking into account professional software and other factors holding people on Windows. A lot of it doesn't run well in the VM (even QEMU with passthrough), and dualboot is not the most comfortable way to manage different requirements.
Realistically, how many consumers still use PCs? All my friends and coworkers seem to use their phones and tablets for everything now. They all still have laptops but they hardly ever use them. I got by for about a month after I moved by just using my phone.
Basically every single company? And every single "power user" (I guess that's everyone who needs more than browsing the web nowadays...)?
So many. Plus my own industry lives and dies on computers because a tablet just ain't gonna cut it.
phones and tablets are fine for consuming media. they are noticeably worse at creating it.
i couldn't imagine typing out long responses, sometimes with links, with a phone or tablet.
as for how many consumers still use PCs, hard to say. i know i don't go a single day without using mine. whether it's to play a game, type up a guide for someone to do something, or whatever else. on the flip of that, i also own a ultrabook that i use when i'm away from home. it's capable of doing many things, but it's no where near as capable as my desktop setup.
What's a computer?
I think they were women?
The system requirements are like any system from the last 6 years. Are people really using computers this old? I hear a bunch of people commenting about businesses but at least at the companies I worked at we never had machines older than 4 years old. Seems kind of overblown.
Oh yea and bring on the down votes. I understand this is Lemmy and anything that challenges the hatred of Windows is met with extreme disagreement.
These downvotes are not hatred of Windows, it's the weird statement of "Are people really using computers this old?". Like yes, a lot of people don't need a computer, don't want a new computer, or don't have the money for a new computer. 6 years ago isn't to long even, I built my PC around when Ryzen released(2017), it still works great.
Are people really using computers this old?
Given people still use legacy systems from the 80s and 90s: yes
the companies I worked at we never had machines older than 4 years old
Well good for you, that's not the norm at all in my experience across multiple fields.
Oh yea and bring on the down votes.
Well when you assume that all the other people commenting their experience are lying about it for some reason it's no surprise people aren't gonna like what you said.
Dude...I was at a grain terminal last month and they're still using Windows 3.1. Computers haven't been "new" technology in so long rednecks keep old systems going.
Yes I am using as my daily driver an old box with an i7-3770. Truthfully want to upgrade, however it just hasn't missed a beat and does everything I need. Wouldn't mind some USB c ports though.....
I believe lots of small businesses are not that concern with security so just run with old boxes for a long long time
My desktop computer is from 2011 and it plays eSports games like DotA 2 and StarCraft just fine. I replaced the GPU with an RX 580 a few years ago, and if I wanted more GPU power I could definitely replace it with something even faster.
A 4770K can run almost anything at 60 FPS, so for gaming it's not a big issue, especially since that system has a 60 FPS monitor.
You 'murican?
In the past I had to upgrade my PC every 4 years (my first PC run on Windows 3.1), but my last one just works and even the GPU only fell out of minimum requirements of the newest and graphical shiny games end of last year (it even managed to run Starfield although it looked bad and lagged in cities terribly), but my backlog is huge, so I don't care and if I care I can use Geforce Now or Game Pass for PC and stream that one game I can not play on my rig directly anymore.
Our planet is on fire and consuming less is the only actual solution to that. Everything got more expensive. I literally don't want to spent a lot of money on a PC that I do not need, because the one I have plays the games I want to play just fine (currently Dave the Diver) and on top throw a perfectly fine machine away, add to CO2 production and need to cut back on other needs I have because everything is so expensive.
My machine is an i7-6700K 4GHz with a GTX 970 and 16 GB DDR 4. And the only reason this is not working with Windows 11 is the CPU and upgrading that would need a new board and at that point I need a new PC. Oh and I tested it at the beginning when Windows 11 came out, I can circumvent the restriction and install Windows 11 anyway, it's just not guaranteed it will stay working and getting upgrades can be a hassle, but at least for the time I tried it I did get automated updates.
I do not hate Windows, I tried to get Windows 11, I just don't want to accept that a security feature for businesses makes my consumer PC invalid for it. I am a gamer and I would like to stay with Windows, but I am not buying a new PC unless a vital part of my old one breaks. I rather stay with an unpatched system and do anything that needs security on my phone/tablet on android. And no, I am 58 y.o. and I am not learning Linux, maybe if I were interested in the Steam handheld it would make sense, but I am not.
Remind me again about how awful it is that Bitcoin uses so much energy? Is it because one form of waste makes shit tons of money for shareholders and the other makes money for regular people?
Mining hasn't been profitable for any "regular" person for like a decade
97% of wallets being in profit isn't profitable? Man, you should tell these people! What if they never find out!!
Lol after this comment Bitcoin surpassed Silver to become the 8th most valuable asset by market cap on the planet. More than Coca Cola and Pepsi combined. Even 10 million million down votes can't change the truth
Two things can be awful at once, shockingly enough.
no
