Diplomacy dies on live TV as Trump and Vance gang up to bully Ukraine leader
Diplomacy dies on live TV as Trump and Vance gang up to bully Ukraine leader
US president said his horrific blow-up would make ‘great television’ – the White House has never seen anything like it
Summary
Trump just presided over one of the greatest diplomatic disasters in modern history, with flared tempers, raised voices, and shredded protocol.
Never before has a U.S. president bullied and berated an adversary, never mind an ally, in such a public way.
During a tense Oval Office meeting, Trump and JD Vance attacked Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, demanding he accept a peace deal with Russia or lose U.S. support.
The conversation devolved into shouting, with Trump accusing Zelenskyy of being ungrateful and “gambling with World War III.”
The meeting ended in chaos, with no agreement reached.
Finally a fucking accurate headline. All of this "argument between zelensky and trump" horseshit was so immediate and widespread. Trump couldn't even handle his own unjustified attack. They needed vance to to start with verbal diarrhea and buzz words so dementia donny dipshit had things to free associate with. They ganged up and bullied to try to force him to break, and he held.
Trump's unreasonable nature is so obvious in the full video that I don't see how anyone with two braincells can be on his side. Some highlights I want to share:
Reporter asks at 37:39 "… and who would protect those minerals … ?" Trump: "They'll be protected. The agreement will protect them. The agreement, yeah we're signing an agreement." Reporter: "Right but what if Russia tries to invade or there's russian agression in those spots." Trump: "I just don't think that's going to happen." He then deflects by trying to discredit the reporter since he couldn't answer the question. So instead of giving Ukraine any guarantees or acknowledging Russia's previous deceit, he hand waves it away.
At 33:45 "… what did [Putin] tell you that he wanted peace?". Trump: "My whole life is deals … I've known him for a long time, he had to suffer through the Russia hoax, you know Russia Russia Russia it was a hoax. It was all Biden it was nothing to do with him … I think that he wants to make a deal and he would like to see it end." What an absolute nothing answer. He's asked why he believes this is viable and after a short attempt at making Russia the victim he just says, rephrased, "because, lol".
At 39:50 Vance goes on a truly incoherent ramble about how Biden tried "thumping [his] chest and pretending that the president of the United States words mattered more than the President of the United States's actions" and thus "the path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe in engaging in diplomacy". Ah, diplomacy, the path that is famously known for it's lack of words... sending money to Ukraine or providing military aid? Those aren't actions, they're just words. Zelensky goes on to ELI5 to Vance how Putin broke diplomacy before the clips everyone is posting begins.
And just for fun, at 30:15 Trump delivers a line so stupid it almost breaks Zelensky's poker face: "I've stopped wars, I've stopped many wars. My people will tell you, I've stopped wars that nobody ever heard about. I stopped wars before they ever started. … I could give you a lot of nations that would tell you right now they were probably going to war — I could tell you right now there is a nation thinking about going to war on something that nobody in this room has ever even heard about."
This is ignoring all the times they try and blame Biden for Russia invading Ukraine which just ???
Their first, still very polite disagreement that evening was when Trump said that the US has given a lot more aid than Europe did, to which Zelensky very politely replies 'they gave a lot', clearly avoiding the obvious 'they gave more', to which Trump then replies 'they gave a lot, but much less than we did', to which Zelensky replies with a clear 'no.' and then they laugh. You could argue that Zelensky does not need to do that, but he gives credit where credit is due to the Europeans, and he doesn't let a blatant lie about an ally slide. It's the type of moment that's beautiful and horrendous at the same time. Source: https://youtu.be/CSe0ntgfpq4?t=726
The stupid part is that Trump / Vance made themselves look like assholes. Zelensky was over to sign a deal and they threw him out for disagreeing with their dumb talking points. And far from making America "great", I expect that Canada, Europe, UK, Australia, Japan, South Korea etc has collectively decided that they need to reduce their dependence on America while these malignant narcissists are in charge.
I can't wait for Trump to die
@[email protected] said
I can't wait for Trump to die
DANGER Will Robinson! we can't threaten people here, not even oompaloompas.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not a great shot, but at 130m firing from a prone position I would have made that shot 9 times out of 10. Heck, I had my family on the range firing a diemaco c7 (the colt Canada ar15) as part of a family appreciation day in my home guard company. They hadn't shot more than an air rifle before, and after about three rounds each they shot killing shots at a silhuet at 200m.
How that guy could miss is beyond me. Almost like it was intentional.
Almost like it was intentional.
Yeah. Funny thing, that.
Adrenaline makes your hands shaky and the target was moving.
small razor blade to cut the ear and it became a near miss.
Oh shit. I just got here. I see Lemmy is dangerously woke too. Wishing someone to die is rather nasty. I do agree putting that on tv was stupid, world leaders should do all their negotiating (bickering) behind closed doors.
Not addressing the rest of the comment, but ”world leaders should discuss everything behind closed doors” is a dangerously shortsighted take. You do realize their job is to represent you, right? How do you think you can verify they are doing that if you are not allowed to see and hear what’s being said?
May the door hit your Nazi ass on the way out, scum
Watching that made my stomach hurt. I'm so embarrassed. Not that I wasn't before, but Jesus Christ. Every time he opens his mouth, every time I see a new article about the horrendous shit he's doing, that rage from the election results comes back again. I feel like I have to watch it all, but this is so fucking painful.
Zelenskyy is a goddamn hero
fuck trump fuck vance fuck musk fuck putin
And his most heroic act was not punching the old fart in the teeth
I imagine it would be quite cathartic
He’s not a hero lol
Zelenskyy is a goddamn hero
He's far from being a hero. Zelenskyy just happens to be the president of a country being invaded, if trump was in his place you would be here calling him a hero. Zelenskyy is the president of an authoritarian government who turned to martial law and is drafting people by force while not allowing any male between 18-60 to leave the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization_in_Ukraine#2024
"In 2023, harsher methods of mobilization began to be used, such as road blocks, business raids, and pulling people from the streets. In the latter half of 2023, videos surfaced online showing Ukrainian men violently dragged into vans and driven to the military recruiting centers"
Zelenskyy is the president of an authoritarian government who turned to martial law
Active invasion of their country from Belarus and Russia. What a brain dead take.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization_in_Russia
Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics
The mobilization was accompanied by mass raids on men of military age. In the enterprises of the region, up to 80% of employees were called up, which led to shutdown of mines and public transport, as well as the paralysis of cities and public services. To avoid mobilization, residents hid or tried to illegally leave the republics.[21]
Recruitment of prisoners
Implementation
It was reported that Russian authorities were targeting poor, homeless and people from poorer regions of Russia for conscription.[79][80] Russian authorities drafted detained protestors with no previous military experience, including a 17-year-old boy who was arrested at an anti-war demonstration in Moscow.[81]
On 14 April 2023, Putin signed into law a bill that would allow authorities to issue electronic summons to draftees.[92][93] The law blocks anyone eligible for military service who has received a digital summons from leaving the country.[94] Russian lawyer Valeria Vetoshkina called it a "hidden mobilization." According to Russian economist Konstantin Sonin, "Now, any person, regardless of whether he took a summons or not, [or] has an account with Gosuslugi or not, can be arrested and convicted for not going to war."[95] Russian lawyer and human rights activist Ivan Pavlov said that the "only option is to leave the country as soon as possible, but there is very little time for that."[96]
Why would any nation that does not have nukes not start making nukes right now?
The USA has shown over and over, it's the only thing we take seriously. We don't give a fuck until you have nukes. We don't care about treaties, alliances, deals. We only care if you can start the nuke wars. Anything else is just "how can we take advantage of you?"
Also .. World, I understand you're not reading this, but for the three of ya that do, boycott us. Tariff the shit out of us. You got this, and thanks for all the fish.
Unfortunately Ukraine was part of the Budapest Memorandum. With this they gave up their nuclear armament in an agreement that "prohibited Russia, the United States, the United Kingdom and France from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, "except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."
So they gave up their nukes with the agreement that they would be safe from these 4 groups. However that didn't do shit for them, thus a huge reason why any SeasFire(Ceasefire, my bad) would have to have some big security backing. As Russia has ignored all prior agreements.
As an American,
It's too hard. Yeah, we understand the required specs, but the precision machines and rare ores are internationally monitored. Tom Clancy's The Sum of All Fears was eye opening as to what the terrorists had to go through to make a single bomb. And it fizzled into a "normal" atom bomb.
And I'm not even talking about the experts involved, a physics degree ain't gonna get it. The precision machining for the tooling alone is mind blowing, then you gotta fab the actual parts. Again, you're not getting people like that in a room with a LinkedIn ad, and it would be noticed, very noticed, if you tried.
Now if you want to skip 3-stage hydrogen bombs and just roll an atom bomb, still tough, but much more doable.
tl;dr: The nuclear powers would come down on you like a ton of bricks if a country even tried starting a program. See: Iran.
See Pakistan.
Shit can work out. Russia has plenty of peeps looking for seedy revenue streams
I really need to check out Sum of All Fears again.
That truly is mind blowing to think about, the level of expertise you mentioned and the tooling. Imagine, just think about it, if it were put to use for something other than the potential to obliterate millions in an instant...
Makes a man shed a tear, a bit.
I checked a few parts for a few minutes. It was too painful to watch.
Troomp and JD couch showed the worst traits leaders could have. The obvious ones are the American superiority complexes and the toxic need to escalate and talk down upon others.
In all of the bits I saw when skipping trough it, Zelenksy deescalated the situation multiple times while Trump and especially Vance escalated and started talking like some pretentious teenager bullies that gotten themselves a country.
Fuck the USA.
The only thing missing was Trump shouting "hold me back bro!" and pretending Vance was holding him back.
As an American, fuck the USA.
As a Canadian, fuck the US eh
One of my issues with the video is that Trump is "aligned" with everyone and keeps saying that Ukraine has to make concessions while he never says Russia will. In the last press meeting he even hinted that it will be difficult to have Putin give back occupied territories. I forget the exact words, but it was after the Elon part.
Most of the time Trump makes his little hand vagina.
He looks depressed. Probably because he doesn't have a third hand with which to grab his own pussy.
I know my meme game has died and ascended into Boomerdoom, for I've seen this about 12 times and IDK what's up
And then to top off his hissy fit, he kicked Zelenskyy out. Like the diaper wearing toddler he is.
America is an enemy to freedom, democracy, and peace to the world; Americans just haven't felt it yet.
They will soon when the dictatorship turns violent, after all checks and balances are removed.
As an American, We felt it the first time he was in office. And Bush, and so many other times before. This time is different. It’s unhinged and there’s no end in sight. And the scary part is that a large portion of people here apparently WANTED this. Some of them are silent now, some are attempting to amp it up further and no one I know that voted for this feels any thing is wrong.
There are changes being made on a whim with an axe that will take decades or longer to be rectified and lots that never could be. I’ve never felt as disappointed and ashamed of the country I live in as I do now and I know it will get worse… much worse. Buckle up folks, it’s going to be a bump ride and Disney didn’t write this tale so there’s no happily ever after.
And I’m reminding everyone to GO VOTE!
There are those of us that feel it. We have felt it. We pleaded for people to vote for Harris. We tried to tell people how serious the situation was. It didn't matter.
Krasnov performed exactly as his master, Putin, instructed. The Russians have landed - in the White House.
There can be absolutely zero doubt that Trump is a Russian stooge
The world understands now that he will Parrott the ideas of whoever spoke to him last. Starmer and Macron tried to right the ship and they did for 24 hours. Unfortunately, Putin has people on the inside. Tulsi Gabbard chief among them, feeding Trump a steady diet of Bullshit the Russian bots would embarrassed to type.
As usual, Trump is projecting. Someone is "gambling with WWIII," but it sure ain't Zelenskyy.
+100
Anyone who thought this would work out differently was simply not paying attention or was being willfully ignorant.
US provided a deal Zelinsky simply could not sign and they knew it. Chump set Zelinsky up for this shit show cause, in his world, Chump either gets the deal he wants or he gets to act/look tough.
And how masculine/tough to have Couchie there backing him up cause Chump isn't brave enough to do it all on his own.
And, of course, all concludes with disastrous results all around.
🤦♀️ 🖕 🖕 🤡
Trump wants zelenaky to take peace at any cost.... Zelenaky won't take that offer and wants assurances. Trump insults him as a war monger who wants ww3??
God what an example of political double speak. Trump is a lying idiot and he's the one gambling with ww3
Someone is “gambling with WWIII,
Could it be the deranged wanna-be dictator/mobster, and associates, who want to seize Canada, Greenland and Panama?
Honestly fuck it we know appeasment doesn't work, I'd rather have WW3 now when Ruzzia is still just a middle power with a ton of second hand equipment than let them take half of eastern europe and build up some serious strength before finally having WW3 anyway.
Any government who spend billions on wars is gambling with WWIII
I’m glad we get to see this shameful display. I wouldn’t talk to a dog like that, much less the democratically elected leader of another sovereign nation that’s an ally. The US used to be a beacon of freedom and diplomacy, but clearly we shouldn’t expect that from the current regime.
Europe will keep supporting Ukraine regardless, but it really is in the US’ interests to stay involved in this conflict. It’s disconcerting that Trump can’t seem to grasp that basic fact.
It's also just so weak.
Not that macho'ism should be a major point or even desirable trait for a world leader IMO, but so many people like Trump because he's allegedly strong. Yet when I watch the above clip I just keep thinking "he's so weak and soft and overly sensitive to essentially everything." Like how can you want a tough leader, then watch that exchange and think "Trump is tough." What?
I hope that the rest of the world is taking notes and realizing that they cannot rely on the current US government to uphold its side of any prior agreements (or even the basic tenets of etiquette in civil discourse).
I hope that every country that does most of its trade with the US is quietly looking for new markets.
I hope that Republican isolationism actually comes to pass so that the entire population of the US can feel exactly how painful it will be to cut themselves off from the rest of the world. And then in two years, I hope enough people will get off their asses and vote against the people who let it happen.
The rest of the world certainly is watching.
There's been pretty much universal condemnation and acknowledgement that the US is no longer the leader of the free world.
It also feels like it was all planned. From his time on TV Trump knows a lot about creating drama. First we have "he's a dictator", everyone expects Trump to be against Ukraine. Then in episode 2 there's a twist - France and Britain show up and Trump is very amenable to give people hope again, and finally it all blows up in a dramatic clash. Trump even tells us "that's why I let it go on so long... its going to make great television".
The whole thing was about telling the story that Trump is the strong peace seeking negotiator and it all fell through because zelensky won't be reasonable and is trying to take advantage of the US who he doesn't respect.
Yeah I actually listened through (almost) the entire 50 minute thing during breakfast - and all things considered the atmosphere was mostly okay up until the last moments. Things were starting to wrap up, journalists asking questions, and then Vance jumped in with an entirely different attitude - and after that Trump completely changed his tone also.
So tragic to see how Z was doing his utmost to be friendly or at least respectful even when T made clearly incorrect statements or when some of the journalists asked insulting questions. He literally thanked him (and the american people) multiple times during the press conference, and then V jumps in, runs him over and turns the entire thing upside down.
Finally a f**king actual headline. That was a disaster and a disgrace for all Americans. I can’t take these meek be “explosive White House meeting, where maybe Trump was possibly speaking angrily, but please Mr. Trump don’t sue us, if you disagree!”
Word
"Democracy dies on live TV" - wow that headline hits hard.
It says Diplomacy, but both are fitting actually
Ah cheers, misread that!
Nah, this wasn't democracy dying on live tv. They are saving that for 2026.
First time i read it I thought it says "Democracy dies on live TV"... not far from it i guess...
"US chances at..."
Need to be added to the start. As if other countries aren't somehow capable is such an USamericanism.
Democracy is just one word and a set of ideas connected to it.
Other than democracy there are meekness, dignity, wisdom and rationality, by the way, none of these contradicts any other, and a few even more important - faith and bravery and choice.
So, I see nothing wrong with democracy dying in any kind of public setting when the 7 things I've listed stop being even tolerated.
CIA used to kill presidents for less. Sometimes American ones too.
AFAIK, it's not clear if the CIA ever killed a president.
They surely gave guns and taught other people how to do it. But I don't think they ever did it themselves.
They generally just overthrew the government and called it a day.
Brings up memories of the South Park episode of the CIA or FBI where the boys found out the organization was trying to project themselves to be more powerful than they actually are, and intentionally wanting people to believe scary rumors about them.
My take on it is if that's what we can find out about these clandestine orgs then the truth is almost certainly at least slightly more incriminating. I dont trust them to tell or record the truth when they can't even pass an audit.
They really need to step in here, before Putin moves into the white house permanently
The CIA is in the business of installing despots, not removing them.
I feel like no one who could have a sway (aside from the mass who is not organized and still devided at the moment) would benefit from trump not being in power. That's a lot of negatives, let me rephrase: I feel that no one with the power to influence—aside from the masses, who, if organized, could have significant sway—has much incentive to act, as they benefit from Trump being in power.
This is what happens when Trump doesn't get his way and he throws his toys out of the pram.
Shows his worst self
His honest self
which is just the worst.
There is no other self. This is what he is.
His only self, even.
I don't know exactly how to put this, but I feel personally embarrassed by this.
I think this is going to shift world order more than expected. Every country now must be nuclear. Trump is going to try to install himself as a dictator. I think violence will have to be the answer. Man it's depressing.
I'm pissed. There was always a simple answer. Freeze the front line and make it clear to Putin that Ukraine is now their version of Taiwan. They could keep trying to attack but the Ukrainians are now backed by the full might of the American military. They can keep what they already have but anything else is a step too far.
Yeah it's possible Zelensky doesn't go for that deal but damn, they didn't even try for the simplest option that stops the fighting, gets the payments Trump so desperately wants and guarantees Ukraine's security. They literally just presented an extortion scheme as the only option, with "trust me bro" as the guarantee.
https://sign.moveon.org/petitions/to-president-zelenskyy-from-embarrassed-americans
Here's an apology letter you can sign if you want
Shame the cloudflare VPN wall doesnt let me sign it. It just loops a captcha at me that insta-fails.
Every country now must be nuclear.
Unless you want a nuclear war NO country needs to be nuclear
I think "tried to bully Zelensky" would have been a little more accurate. Of course Trump and Vance failed at that too. All they're good at is manipulating the most stupid people on the planet. If I was morally depraved, I bet I could do it pretty easily too.
Imagine calling a world leader, who's kinda busy leading his nation through a brutal war against his nation, halfway across the planet, just to yell at him on camera like they're on some Fox News shouting-heads hitpiece, for not selling out his country and giving in to the butchers.
Seriously, even for the world's stupidest people, where is the "Okay, wow, you just don't do that, sir." Line?
When does "Defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC." come into play? Seriously, someone please tell me, what do these chodes gotta do to get treated as the terrorists they are?
When do the sworn-in armed forces say "Alright, that's it." and draw down on this gang of heinous criminals and execute them for treason to prevent the world from slipping any further into chaos?
Do we gotta hope for (a successful) Op: Valkyrie 2025??
I just can't understand why Vance would interpret Zelenskyy as being disrespectful for politely, calmly, and carefully articulating his point of view on how diplomacy has failed him and his country. Vance seems like the type of person I would basically laugh at and walk away from if I were in a situation to have to hear him be "alpha and in-charge".
It was like watching a scene from an episode of a reality TV show from the early 2000s.
Because they went in wanting to find a way to make Zelenskyy seem unreasonable. They have no intention of helping Ukraine at all and now it's going to be because he didn't immediately kiss Trumps feet.
I just wonder what type of people saw that and thought Zelenskyy was the unreasonable one? It's rhetorical, I know what type of people think that... sadly.
It was like watching a scene from an episode of a reality TV show from the early 2000s.
That's not a coincidence.
I mean, the "president" is the guy from The Apprentice. 🤮
He didn't, he was just saying that it was disrespectful cause he wanted to show what a good little bitch he is.
Love how the guy who said "I'll make up whatever stories I need to" told Zelenskyy, after being asked if he's seen what Ukraine is going through: "Oh I haven't personally been there but I've seen stories."
Stories from where, vice couch-humper? RT News?
It actually sounded like he was about to say he had actually been there, then realized he was about to lie about that to a guy who would immediately recognize and likely call him out for lying, so he then course corrected with a seriously lame response.
If the Europe had any sense of self respect the US embassies would be closing everywhere right now just like the russian ones.
Trump sucks, I hope Ukraine wins,and I hope Putin is judged by history for his aggression and the general incompetence of his government.
But very few Russian embassies were ever closed, and rightly so. Some were downsized and suspected spies were given the boot. If Europe wants to do that with Americans, yeah smart.
Outright closing embassies would be a massive misstep, completely (edit: unwarranted, I mean) warranted, and miss the entire point of diplomacy.
Very simple way to send a message: cancel F35 contracts.
"Peace deal" means surrender now, don't join NATO, and get invaded again in a few years.
TBH idk how Zelenskyy thought things would go any differently.
I doubt he thought it would go differently. But he did an amazing job showing the world how utterly depraved Trump and Vance are. There can be no question now that they are Putin stooges. The United States lost the cold war, Putin won without firing a single bullet. It is out in the open.
He probably fired quite a few bullets, but I get you.
The US won the cold war actually.
It's just that they now somehow manage to loose after having already won.
So word is that the more the US mistreats Z, the more the European people like him, and want to support him. So this was probably a great outcome fir them. The deal offered was very one sided. Had Z just not taken it, people would blame him. But now, everyone knows who to blame.
That was painful to watch. Trump and Vence were pathetic and the end rambling about Biden, laptop, wtf was that? If Kamala did then same they would have taken her by force to a mental institution.
Real Art of The Deal shit.
Absolute fucking masterclass in statesman-like diplomacy.
Genuinely a moment for all Americans to be proud of. Truly, exceptional.
Coming from YouTube, all the comments were saying Trump put Zelenksy in his place.. are people actually that stupid, or is the whole internet edgy rightwing bots?
Yes
A good chunk of the comments will be straight up Russian propaganda. Another good chunk will be Americans who have bought into that propaganda wholeheartedly.
It's an embarrassing time to be an American.
Trump got elected twice, so I fear it might just be people.
I showed a clip of the meeting to someone I know and that is pretty much what they said.
We are so fucked.
Don't forget the ungodly amount of bots out there.
god maga folk are the most unamerican beyond belief. The whole greatest generation is rolling over in their graves.
They voted in a Russian agent as the president. They are beyond evil. They are traitors.
Good job America! Proud of y’all for once again standing up for your values of oppression and greed.
So true.
The democrats would rather have trump than Bernie.
Yeah, even in this very comments section we have arse-lickers still blaming the plebes for not having supported a DNC Royalty who didn't even tried to listen to or represent them.
These people have spent the last decades unwaveringly supporting the hard right within the Democratic Party, who couldn't give a rat's arse about anybody not in their social circle, and now, to avoid accepting the blame for having supported those who corrupted their party from the inside, are blaming the poor sods on the outside who between two parties entirely dominated by the wealthy elites, never had a real choice.
I'm ready to protest this shit. Tell me when and where to show up, my local big city or state capital. This is some bullshit. Trump and Vance are egotistical dickheads. Ukraine are our allies! Imagine George Washington doing this with Marquis de Lafayette, or FDR with Churchill!! Unspeakable!
Just show up, invite others, everyone is waiting for someone else to do something (present company included).
Cringe.
Congrats Never Genocide people posing as Progressives. We fucking warned you that exactly this was going to happen. Trump and his cult would side with Russia and throw Ukraine under the bus.
Great fucking job.
And great fucking job, Mods, for protecting those fucks in the name of civility.
We are the baddies now. And we got here because you'd rather protect Nazis from being punched in the mouth for their words and actions in the name of civility.
Thank fucking God we didn't vote for Harris because she wouldn't outright condemn Israel. Totally worth everything happening now (that any remotely educated and reasonable person warned about).
Doing God's work in excusing the DNC's unwillingness to do what it took to defeat Trump (just like, right now, they're not doing what it takes to stop him).
For the instinctive ass-kisser it's never the Royalty who is to blame, always the plebes.
With an "opposition" that doesn't actually oppose and is ever less representative of the population, Project 2025 was always going to happen, sooner or later, since the trend of the last 2 decades has been ever more of far right populism, propped up by the Democrats' ever more Rightwing policies and ever less trying to represent the broader population (and repeatedly using "we're not them" as their entire electoral strategy).
You know what might've worked? Not having licked the boots of the Democrat Leadership during the last decade or two.
Now, you're getting to enjoy the bed you made for yourself.
Also congrats to the Dems for not being against genocide in the first place. And losing to this orange buffoon twice.
We are the baddies now
We were the baddies before.
If you don't think arming a genocide made us baddies already then I'm not on the same side as you and you cannot expect my vote
Jesus fucking Christ, I wished they had all voted Democrat just to shut you up. Trump is bad enough but hearing you guys complain about this over and over is just too much.
Let it go, for fuck sakes. Deal with it.
Congrats Never Genocide people posing as Progressives
Centrists do think that "never genocide" is a bad position.
We fucking warned you that exactly this was going to happen.
No. You screamed abuse at anyone to your left and only your left because opposition to genocide is opposition to your wing of the party. Progressives tried to warn you what would happen if you didn't ditch Netanyahu. We could read the writing on the wall. You had all the warning in the fucking world that if you kept pissing off people you needed to win, they wouldn't vote for you. You loved genocide so dearly that you kept going.
We are the baddies now.
You always have been. I reluctantly voted for Harris and I may one day stop resenting being manipulated into voting for genocide.
I kinda feel like the 'never genocide' people were always secretly embarrassed trumpsuckers.
But I don't have a problem with mods giving them the same protections as the rest of us. I think those people are a bunch of wankers but I don't want Lemmy turning into more of an echo chamber than it already is.
I kinda feel like the ‘never genocide’ people were always secretly embarrassed trumpsuckers.
Yes, that was the accusation leveled at anyone to the left of netanyahu after the mods made it clear that screaming "russian" was against the civility rules.
I know the main thing here is Vance and Trump backstabbing and bullying Zelenskyy, but I just want to point out that Trump repeatedly talked about "raw earth" instead of "rare earths". We're truly fucked.
Trump is America's Boris Johnson turned up 100. The act of stupidity is intentionally, to provide a thin veneer of plausible deniability in case the rule of law comes back swinging it's prejudice cock to only smack either Vance in the face as he Pardons Trump and Musk.
If Trump's stupidity is an act then boy is he committed to the bit - because he's been dumb as a bag of rocks since grade school, through high school, college, and in every encounter with people close to him. Doesn't even turn it off for the wives or friends behind closed doors. Truly the greatest method actor of our times.
I disagree. Trump is neurodiverse and has dementia. He’s also an absolute monster of a human being, one of the worst that ever rose to power. So don’t think I’m making excuses for him here, but the guy legit has brainrot.
BoJo is a smart man hiding behind his bumbling facade. It’s very obvious when you hear him talk for example in a court of law instead of in front of a camera. With Trump you don’t have that distinction. He is always the same.
This really is the end of the US era. Nobody will count on them for things like this from now on. War was the one thing the US was good at, now they have nothing of value left for the rest of the world.
War was the one thing the US was good at, now they have nothing of value left for the rest of the world.
Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.
US is good at pumping infinite money into the military. But they definitely aren't "good" at war.
They were good at creating and maintaining wars. Just not good at winning or ending them.
I don't know what it can be, but every ounce of me hates both of these men. I don't even want to call them men. I can't think of a possible way that they could suffer and feel the emotion of helplessness and sorrow. Whatever would happen, I don't think they'd care. They literally wouldn't care - because they have the mindset that they are invincible and can have whatever they want.
It's been a while since I've gone through a whole day being proud of my US citizenship. Today was one of the most shameful.
Honestly. I've never been more ashamed. I wish I could help end this shit, ya know?
Same. What an awful day to be a sane American.
This is disgraceful and would've never happen in the old days. On the other hand, I even appreciate the public show of arguing before plainly betraying an ally. Like what we did with Gaddafi or Hussein. That was some cold -blooded bully shit.
No he is showing us exactly who we know him to be a piece of human shit.
Hey man, I dropped a log this morning that was 12" long and 1.5 inches thick.
That motherfucker was a majestic bastard.
I wouldn't even put Trump in the same league as the skidmark that was left behind by this veritable ring-buster.
As much as this makes me hate Donald Trump more than I already did, which was already more than I hate almost anyone, the really horrific thing is that a decent fraction of Americans will look at this and think Trump made the right decision, or at least a brave, or reasonable, decision.
True, but I don't think it matters any more what they think. They are a cult, and we cannot salvage this situation by swaying them. We have to act accordingly. They just need to be mowed down if they get in the way.
Wrote up a summary months ago (with reputable sources!) about this stuff, and was permabanned from Lemmy news and politics for it.
Idk man, you can tell people stuff, but it’s so hard for them to access what’s real right now. There’s a concerted online effort to suppress factual info.
hey! I remember you! I saved your whole comment.
your comment made me think something worse was on the way and made me start to prepare.
thanks!
Good, that is the point, I want people to be safe, stay alive, have food to eat and homes to live in. Take care!
The trouble is that this was probably intentional, you can see the vp is literally an attack dog in this case, but I still think it's likely that if zelensky stroked trumps ego it wouldn't have ended that way. It's like trump is pro Russia but also narcissistic and they are sometimes at odds.
That sucks and permabans really shouldn't be a thing except in extreme causes of threatening to like harm/dox some one and stuff like that. Not seeing where you did anything to get banned at all, but especially not permabanned.
If Lemmy just ends up being another reddit that's going to suck so bad.
We need a government social media that allows us to sue mods for freedom of speech violations, and allows us to host and have a centralized area for town halls and city concerns, eg like local FB or Reddit groups.
Until then, whatever, I won't shut up and they will have to keep banning me. I'm only on these "big" socials to let people know this stuff, otherwise I stick to niche independent forums that focus on 1 special interest. The difference between posters there, who are real and human and there to discuss the interest instead of psyop, and the posters on big socials, is night and day. The little indie forums don't really need to ban people because they aren't the focus of psyops, and so you get to see a wide variety of opinions and less of an echo chamber. Idk, I miss the old internet
Does that link lead to a "Server error" for anyone else?
What a shit show...
This is the weakness of modern democracies... You, as Putin, can just wait for 4 years and there will maybe be an idiot in power, who.ruins everything done before.
It's the whole paradox of tolerance, on a slightly different level.
A democratic society cannot allow non-democractic elements such as Trump to use the democratic process. By it's very nature. People will then say "but it's democracy, I should be able to choose whatever I want", yes, except choosing against democracy. Which is by definition not a choice that can be available.
Yes democracy is too easily undermined, it needs constant protection. The people need to always be educated and it can not be that such pathetic Populism makes you the leader of the most powerful country
Thanks, gonna say that to people now
Biden is at fault here too though. He was way too timid in his support for Ukraine, slow rolling aid and self-imposing all kinds of imaginary red lines. For more than two years he acted as if he was going to be president forever, with vapid statements like "we will support Ukraine for as long as it takes", and didn't take into account that there was a good chance that the next president would again be a buffoon who would try everything to undo previous policies.
Stop thinking of the two parties as opposites. They are next to each other.
Better chance than maybe when you can use social media to influence the outcome
I just saw an ad for G20, a fiction where some terrorists kidnap all the leaders of the G20 at the meeting. But don't worry, the US president frees herself, and she's going full Liam Neeson to free everyone and get revenge.
LOL completely unbelievable
What would instead happen with the US president that is in charge now: if you free me I will help you with all your requests and I will personally execute the hostages
I've heard shows like Madam Secretary and The West Wing be considered, akin to Star Trek, "competence porn."
The idea, the fantasy, that the people making the critical decisions that affect so many people are consulting experts, weighing heavy costs, consulting the law, and are kept up at night because they care so deeply for making the best call they can so they don't let down all those who depend on them. These characters have been role models for leadership for generations at this point.
And here we are, in a complete fever dream of a failed state: With a convicted felon and failed reality show TV personality, his foreign billionaire handler, and a weak spineless, loud little dweeb we all forgot was even vice... burning the last vestiges of peace and goodwill all around themselves, handing us and our allies over in a competition with other fascists to be the world's worst enemies, screaming at world leaders, destroying the environment out of spite, and heck, shilling beans from the oval office. Because why not.
Who's close enough to this to do something about it? Where are the competent ones who will regain control of the bridge from these terrorists? Yeah, where's our "G20 president"?
Well, I just remembered, we need to support people like Governor Janet Mills of Maine , and empower anyone any everyone who will stand up against this bullying.
It's one of those look for the helpers kinda times. And then go to work with them.
I really like The West Wing. I’m currently going through it again.
It was always a hopeful show, but these days even the ‘bad guys’ in it start to look pretty appealing compared to what’s actually in the White House. At least the ones on the West Wing had fairly mundane motives and could be worked with to some extent.
If they made a current show inspired the actual White House, it would look more like Idiocracy than competency porn…
Trump is such a piece of shit, zelensky showed so much restraint. I think I would have slapped that traitor into the next dimension
remember you guys. peace day 1! trump never lies
They did this exactly why they staged this - so they can point a finger and say "Zelensky is not ready for peace" which btw is literally a real quote trump said just now
How he was able to raise his voice with Putins needle dick pushed up against his tonsils is quite impressive.
This is genuinely one of the stupidest things I've seen. We all are used the the bar getting lower and lower but lordy it just accelerated.
Trump accusing Zelenskyy of being ungrateful and “gambling with World War III.”
Unlike
KrasnovTrump, who is responsibly destroying the US Government and undermining the USA's alliances and foreign influence while doing everything he can to hand Ukraine and Europe to Russia. That's just responsible statesmanship.Remind me what Trump's Russian asset code name is?
Ah yes, President Krasnov.
King Krasnov
FTFY
He reminds me of the president of Belarus too. That’s not good for the future of America.
Yeah, accuse someone who just wants his country to survive a constant and ongoing aggression of "gambling with World War III", and kiss the ass of the aggressor despot who constantly threatens to nuke the world if someone looks at him wrong.
That was harder to watch than Isis beheadings
I appreciate the comparison but, no.
totally not a russian dog
I love how he thought he was pulling a power move and then EVERYONE is like “don’s a bitch-ass pussy”. Fucking outstanding.
His supporters still think he's a superhero. They are morons.
I’m sure he got an email from Daddy telling him what a big strong man he was today. That’s all that matters.
He's not the boss even in his home
Lol imagine being a Russian and seeing the "Evil West" siding with your leader. Must be a confusing time... 🤣
They love Trump, because their oligarchs and their puppets have regularly praised him on Russian state TV since 2016. So no, no confusion. They know Trump works for them.
https://www.newsweek.com/russian-tv-praises-trump-putin-1740156
https://www.newsweek.com/russian-state-tv-trump-putin-hegseth-2030562
https://www.npr.org/2016/09/09/493289326/donald-trumps-long-embrace-of-vladimir-putin
For people curious, here's a complete video. I skimmed through it and it looks like it starts to really devolve a bit after 40 minutes.
Has a VP ever sat with the president while meeting with a foreign president like this? Maybe Biden in Obama's first term? Cheney and Bush the 2nd behind closed doors but never in front of the cameras
I really wish Zelenskyy had said something to Trump like "Why are you letting him speak for you? Are you not the one in charge?"
Anything Zelenskyy did would have been an excuse. There was no winning this exchange, short of Putin dying in the middle of it.
The strength to not knee this fatfuck retards head in while sitting so close to him must be immense.
Here's the full video:
What horrifying asses Trump and JD are.
Right? You can see how full of themselves they are. And how JD Vance is just a Trump enabler and ass kisser. Fucking sycophant.
The way Trump acts and the way he talks, how he's so condescending to a man who's fighting for the lives and freedom of his country. Then goes off to talk about the previous leader as being stupid and not smart. Disgusting. Absolutely vile.
Meanwhile Zelenskyy is trying to call them out on their lies and their bullshit and they get in his face. Outrageous.
I don't know how Zelenskyy was able to keep calm and not rip Donald's head off, honestly.
What an embarrassing way to behave. 🤦♂️
They can't even look him in the eye. They know he's telling the truth and they're full of shit.
That was crazy
(Should be obv, but this excludes Zelenskyy)
Edit: wtf why is it so hard to insert gifs
(something something invasions of North America, invasion of Mexico, Occupation of the Philippines, ... )
Trump showed what a jackass he was.
The strength to not knee that retarded tub of lard in the face...
Fuck these fuckheads.
That thumbnail reminded me of this
I'm already seeing the memes about Trump and Vance dominating zelenski or flat out turning this event into a joke rather than keeping it as the shit show it is. They move fast
"Diplomacy dies"
What diplomacy has there been for the past 3 years of war?
Any links to the moment or moments? Or did they bury this already? I was busy when it happened and then several of my engineering and science friends came into my lab and they were all talking about it.
It's all on YouTube, pick your poison as far as channels go. Best bit is at the end where Trump says at the end "this will make great TV."
Oh man I watched it. It was terrible! Like on a personal level Trump is such an asshole! Otherwise it would be hilarious and once done you could flush Trump down the toilet. Unfortunately there he is, an asshole at the whitehouse. Just spewing shit.
I'm gonna say it out loud: you are all getting fooled like a bunch of idiots by trump and US government.
USA government wants more war. Here you are praising war and that diplomacy has failed, you are playing government game.
Zelenskyj had every right to question Vance the way he did, but it wasn't the right time to do so if he wanted their respect.
It was disrespectful. It hurts me to concede this point. I didn't want it to be true but I had to see the cause for the fight breaking out, and I hate to admit that it was Zelenskyj who put Vance on the spot in front of everyone like he was on trial, and put him to shame. That's not something you want to do when you're trying to make a deal for your people.
Zelenskyj has too much of a backbone, unfortunately. Respect to him, for standing up against bullshit, but it was definitely a case of picking your battles.
Wtf? Are you that cooked you just can't swallow your US pride even when your leaders are this foul? Uncanny. Where is the line for you? What do you need before you are willing to write off something USA?
😆👌
Not sure if you fully comprehended what I said.
- I said Zelenskyj is in the right. He is fully in the right to question Vance with valid questions. But I'm also saying that if you want to negotiate with monsters, you might not want to embarrass and anger them in front of their own people, live on TV. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ Feels like politics 101.
- I'm not American... Not even on the same continent. 😆 Nice assumption.
So what should’ve been the answer to Vance’s proposal of “diplomacy”, in your opinion? Do you think he shouldn’t have questioned the validity of it, in spite of the precedents? Wouldn’t that just mean accepting the deal without any guarantee of protection like it happened before?
If Zelenskyj really had the ambition of accepting a deal here, he should've just let it slide. Diplomacy is always a good thing if it's fair and just. But we all know Vance is full of shit in this case. You have to have the right to defend your land, obviously. We know this.
But starting to question someone and putting someone in the spot on live TV that you're trying to make a deal with, and making them lose face in front of their own people in their home court, that's a deal breaker. You could tell because Vance had nothing to retort with other than say Zelenskyj was being disrespectful.
I mean, this is just facts. I don't like it more than anyone else. This was a shit situation. He needs the deal, but had to swallow a lot of shit if he were to get it, but he chose not to. Respect to him for that, but now it is what it is.
If he felt he didn't really need the deal, then he chose the right thing to do by not taking bullshit. So good on him.
I don't think people in this thread realize I'm on Zelenskyj's side in this. Everyone is just down voting every thing I post because Zelenskyj can do no wrong (❤️) and Trump is a monster (which he is), but negotiations are more nuanced than black and white sometimes lol. There's psychology at play here. Oh well.
OTOH, it's possible he's consciously splitting with the US in hopes of getting the EU with him. Long term, could be smart.
“On live TV”
literally no video shown or linked
Its a political stech in a newspaper, not a link to a video. You can either go to the guardian's front page to see the it or type anything even slightly relatred to it into a search engine to see the video.
Supposedly it’s live, so it would’ve been over. Also, TVs famously have no links
This happened 12 hours ago.
It is not our place to fund their war and their country any longer. Americans need help and those hundreds of billions could be helping our people. If Ukraine wants to continue fighting then do it without US support.
we had the same "we could use that money for our people!" with Brexit. Guess what? spoiler; the money doesn't go to "the people".
Yes it is because keeping Ukraine out of Putin's hands is essential to Western prosperity. Do you understand Ukraine's role in global wheat production? Do you understand the value of naval ports in the Black Sea? Do you understand the danger of having a Russian border even further in Europe and NATO? Plus, do you think you're going to see any of the savings? The maybe 1.5% of the federal budget that went to Ukraine...so if you miraculously got those $20 of your federal income tax back, they are gonna turn your life around?
Do you support Ukraine joining NATO?
I understand now why tankies were so obsessed with not voting for Genocide Joe.
People should have the right to vote outside the two party system without a spoiler effect. Its a inalienable right actually.
There are more representative electoral systems that can accomplish this. Are you working to pass electoral reform in your state so those that are unrepresented by First-past-the-post voting can participate in democracy?
"Why are women so obsessed with suffrage" - you, if you lived during the early 20th century
Videos on Electoral Reform
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
Yes, you are very smart. Congratulations on having the most convoluted, psychopathic president in the world. You've clearly taught that genocide Joe a lesson.
I agree with everything you're saying here. So tell me, how does this have any bearing on the outcome of an election with FPTP voting?
I'm not on the side of anyone doing genocide, that includes trump, biden, and harris. If you want me on your side, get a candidate who doesn't support genocide, really shouldn't be that hard
Too bad that in the US there’s three sides, two that support genocide and a third one which supports whoever gets the most votes out of the other two.
You literally can’t avoid “supporting genocide” in a FPTP system, refusing to choose just means letting others choose for you. And you can’t tell me in good faith that both outcomes were the same.
