Everyone needs a lesson in how tarrifs work. Tarrifs are a tax on thing that US companies buy. They are intended to make foreign products more expensive to protect domestic producers. So, the American company pays the tariff. They then pass that tariff on to their customer, either another company or an American consumer. Then, the country that the tariff had been applied to applies offsetting tarrifs on American goods.
When the product that the tariff is applied to can't be produced in the US, think advanced microchips or Canadian softwood lumber, Americans pay more but still have to buy the foreign product. With the softwood lumber tarrifs the cost of building a home with Canadian softwood lumber went up by tens of thousands of dollars and Canadian companies laughed all the way to the bank. American consumers paid more and Canadian companies made record profits because the US can't produce enough softwood lumber to meet its needs.
So, the price to American companies and consumers goes up and the cost of American goods overseas goes up. Americans pay the tarrifs and American companies sell less goods overseas.
America loses.
What I love... what I really love... is that this happened during the administration of Trump's favorite president (other than himself), Andrew Jackson:
Hadn't heard of this one, thanks. Americans are pros at not learning from history.
I thought this part was particularly funny/familiar:
It was a bill designed to fail in Congress because it was seen by free trade supporters as hurting both industry and farming, but it passed anyway.
Edit: That article lead me to this one, which gave me a good chuckle. How quaint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petticoat_affair
these women, dubbed the "Petticoats", socially ostracized Secretary of War John Eaton and his wife, Peggy Eaton, over disapproval of the circumstances surrounding the Eatons' marriage and what they deemed her failure to meet the "moral standards of a Cabinet Wife".
After further reading about Peggy Eaton's childhood, kind of a bummer. Also, John Eaton pulled a King David/Bethsheba on her first husband, quite literally... That's wild.
Once Timberlake told Eaton of his financial troubles, Eaton unsuccessfully attempted to have the Senate pass legislation that would authorize payment of the debts Timberlake had accrued during his Naval service. Eventually, Eaton paid Timberlake's debts and procured him a lucrative posting to the U.S. Navy's Mediterranean Squadron; many rumormongers asserted that Eaton aided Timberlake as a means to remove him from Washington, in order for Eaton to socialize with Peggy.
What a shithead. Literally sent him to fight pirates so he could bang the dude's wife hahah
So in your example, I guess the tariffs don’t apply to Canada? Because the proceeds of tariffs go to the government of the country charging them.
I'm not sure what you're asking. If you're referring to softwood lumber the profits of Canadian lumber companies were at record levels because the US needs Canadian softwood lumber with or without tarrifs. The tarrifs didn't affect sales at all so with the increased demand despite the tarrifs Canadian companies didn't suffer at all. US consumers spent more and the money went to the US government which presumably gave some of the money to uncompetitive US softwood lumber companies to subsides their unprofitable operations. It's a tax on US consumers.
Canadian softwood lumber companies pay a stumpage fee to sustainably harvest softwood on public land. US softwood lumber companies pay much higher prices to harvest lumber mostly on private land. It's all about extracting the highest profit for the most wealthy people. Canada has a better system and the US is salty about it. The US has lost at the WTO every time but refuses to accept the result so it ignores its treaty obligations and just forges ahead with the illegal tarrifs which hurt US consumers.
Good. I hope he does it. Don't let any of his yes-men or cronies tell him what a horrible idea it is. Let the whole fucking country burn.
Where so you think American farmers buy their fertilizer? Where they sell most of their soy and corn sell to? Maaaaany companies are either buying or selling to/from China. Many will go bankrupt, bany will struggle.
China is strengthening ties with Russia to replace u.s trade, and it shows that Putin is laughing his ass off at how he played a whole country, other than his I mean
TIL, lots of Trumps voters don’t even know how tariffs work and thought the foreign companies are the one who paid those instead of the domestic buyers themselves.
Even if, did they think prices would just stay the same? Tariffs only work if production is moved back home, which for many industries won't happen, which means costs will be passed on to consumers.
Also, the costs would still be passed on to consumers even if the production was moved back home, because it will cost more in general. And gotta keep those profit margins up.
Doesn't matter who the tax is levied against. All costs will be passed on to the buyer. They should be familiar with this idea. It's the Republican's key talking point against business taxes.
Rich get richer, poor people suffer. Americans are so f dumb i cant take it
Fuck.
It hasn't even started yet and I know that I have 4 more years of this stupidity news ever single day
Oh wait
Since Trump will install himself as a dictator, then die, we have a few decades of couche fucker Vance to look forward to, yeeeiii
I'm not convinced we'll go even a single decade of this regime without total socioeconomic collapse.
Isn't this exactly what Trump said Harris was gonna do and that he was gonna not do?
Vincent
yooooo name twinsies!
As someone who works for a large US-based company, we are locking in large contracts ASAP for compute power to hopefully keep us sated and avoid these from being an extinction event. We were already discussing some vendors not offering supply contracts already because they see the writing on the wall for their own profit margins
So we're going to put tariffs on things where there aren't even domestically-sourced options? WTF?
That's the point of tariffs...to give domestic supply a shot.
It's stupid and short-sighted in a modern economy. It's not worth it for any manufacturer to shut down existing mega factories and build new ones here. They won't find enough people to do the jobs (especially if we deport/denaturalize a ton of people) and the costs and re-investments are huge.
Plus the only places that are left to build giant factories are distant from population centers. And I doubt there will be mass transit into them. So more pollution from personal transportation. And more pollution from local factories. Ripping the EPA to shreds will help with that, and that's a part of agenda 47.
And you just know the ones that choose to come and build here are gonna get really nice tax breaks to do so, so there won't be any real return for the community for a long time, if ever.
The end result is either they pass the costs into consumers, or they cut costs by laying off their expensive state-side employees and moving their positions abroad. American middle-class loses bigly either way.
The natural destination of the US is a giant for-profit prison that leases convicts to businesses.
Plus the only places that are left to build giant factories are distant from population centers.
You're forgetting about eminent domain. Clearly, giant factory on American soil is a public good, even if it's privately owned. Hence, the government will seize the homes and give the land to the corp. The prices of the houses will fall first, because who wants to buy a house that's going to get bulldozed, reducing the compensation the government has to pay to the homeowners, potentially causing them to be upside down on their mortgages. This will leave them with nothing, or potentially even debt, when their homes get sized.
- Not true at all. Vile lies spread by the Democrats.
- Okay, maybe it is true, but it's actually a good thing.
- Okay, maybe the results are catastrophic, but it's actually the Democrats' fault. The solution is higher tariffs.
Isn't thwre a single one RISC-V capable production line in the US? Imagine if Apple starts their own chip production.
There's a reason TSMC does most of the world's chip fabrication.
It's complex and extremely expensive. Standing up a fab, in America no less, capable of handling Apple's demand would be an astronomically expensive feat. Apple would never do this while TSMC is still an option. Even after the tariffs it would still probably be cheaper to use TSMC.
TSMC is for bleeding edge chip. 10nm and above are produced everywhere. Mostly 28nm, since it is the cheapest. It won't be easy to build 5nm fabs but I bet still doable.
Apple would probably produce ARM chips. They wouldn't want to change architecture again so soon.
Because isolationism has worked out so splendidly for us in the past. Fuck this country.
I’m upgrading to 9800x3d now so I should be set until the end of Trump’s presidency.
I'm on a 5800x3d, pretty set right now, but that's a good point...
So much for building that new desktop.
You've got a couple months...
Might have the time, but not the money.
Everyone's gonna start coming to Canada to buy electronics like they do medicine
I really hope my job at an MSP is effected, but it probably will be. I hope we stay in business...
Trump's not going to need to apply tarifs.
Biden has both Russia and China on the back foot with failing economies, and significant social unrest. Both are desperate to make a deal with Trump. Trump only succeeds in negotiation when he can bully his adversary.
If Biden had the faculties, he could have whipped both countries and probably avoided this mess.
Holy cope
Trump whipped Mexico really well into paying for that wall.
Trump just talks a bunch of shit lol. That's actually why he won. Because he promised everything to everyone. He doesn't have any real plans other than those related to genitals and immigrants. He never backs it up with any evidence either
Trump negotiated really well with Foxconn too. Remember that 10 billion factory they were gonna build thanks to Trump?
In fact, I'm actually willing to bet petrol prices and power prices will increase too. Because suddenly, batteries and solar have less competition and even if manufacturered in US, they can raise their prices
It's just really dumb 😂
Trump talks shit, and he's weak at taking action. That is my point. Here he can likely get away with talking shit, and his opponents will cave.
The wall was bs, but he did get nafta renegotiated by bullying.
He's got a good chance at coming out of RU and CN negotiations looking good, despite not doing anything.
He's nothing but a bully, which might actually work here. If it does, then the authoritarians shithawks are going to look really good.
It will at least be extremely funny to watch all the right wing gamer bro chuds freak the fuck out when an immediate consequence of their actions will be that gaming pc components instantly inflate 50% in price.
Glad I already got my Steam Deck, fuck.
I really really hope that they will enact their economic agenda before their racist agenda. When they denaturalize and deport citizens, half of us will be cheering (unfortunately). When the price of electronics/ cars increases it distributes harm to all.
Fuck, I've been putting off getting a new laptop, but hell this is probably going to influence that decision.
Probably should get on it and buy it now ahead of day 1
Bold of you to assune they won't just blame Dems because it isn't like reality matters.
Fuck the dems, too. Less people voted this election, than the last election. People didn't bother to go vote that should have.
yep! and by then it's too late. they've already shot themselves in the foot, they just haven't felt the pain yet.
edit - and honestly, if we were actually producing all this stuff locally and competitively, I would be OK with these chinese tariffs since it would encourage buying USA-made. The problem is that we arent, and probably won't be for a while. we'd all suffer in the meantime.
This post is my reminder that I should probably upgrade my graphics card this December, rather than waiting for any other time.
I guess there will be many people thinking that, driving up demand->increasing prices before any tariffs even exist.
For years, us, Canadians went to USA for shopping. Next year with the exchange rate at the highest for US$, and Canada without tariff, a shit load of americans will come to Canada to buy their electronics and stuff.
They'll still have to pay the tariff when crossing the border back to the USA, unless they want to risk smuggling it.
REGULATIONS
Returning to the U.S.
Less than 48 hours in Canada:
$200 USD worth of goods per person, tax and duty freeAny purchase of alcohol or tobacco products may be subject to duties and taxes
48+ hours in Canada:
$800 USD worth of goods per person, tax and duty freePurchases may include 1 litre of alcohol, 200 cigarettes (1 carton), and 100 cigarsFamily members can combine their tax and duty allowances
They’ll blame democrats for the price increases. Bet me.
Same as last time
Same as every time, this shit is so damn tiring
The US is at least 40 years removed from any kind of real electronics manufacturing at scale.
This kind of thing takes generational knowledge to get right and we outsourced that knowledge a long time ago.
We are now several generations from being able to manufacture electronics on the level.
Either trump has no idea how anything works or he's actively trying to destroy the American economy.
Porque los dos?
He likes Russia so much that he wants the US to become like it. He’s following the post-USSR playbook. He’s trying to destroy the economy so he and his billionaire buddies can buy up the scraps for pennies on the dollar. Which will turn him into an oligarch and will keep him in power after his term is up. And he isn’t going to pay for any of it. He will steal money from the people like he did in his first term with his golf course and his cult following will keep giving him money and buy his crypto coins. That’s why he wants to get rid of cryptocurrency regulation.
Mexico about to make a killing in shipping.
They already have been. China has been working at circumventing restrictions by basically offloading raw materials or parts to Mexico and having them build the product to ship to the US.
Hola world.
American Kazahstan.
Any reason for the unnecessary outlining and underlining instead of just cropping the picture decently? Ffs
Tbf, this makes it more shitpost
It's a shitpost. You may want to check your expectations.
but then we wouldn't get to see the pretty boat!
Can someone please explain to me why he STILL doesn't have any understanding of how tarrifs work?
You're making the mistake in that his intention is to improve things.
He doesn't have to make things better, he just has to say he has made them better. That's all he's ever done and it's worked.
yOu'Re FiReD
A candidate that expressed nuanced understanding of economic principles would have been less likely to win the election.
A candidate that instead promises answers that intuitively sound right. If imports are expensive, then obviously the big business owners will build domestic and give us more money. If you get rid of immigrants, then the business owners will have to pay more for citizen workers. Simple answers that are easier for people to believe in.
Attempts to explain nuance? That ranges from nerds overcomplicating things and/or those darned liberal elites trying to truck them.
This cuts both ways. In 2020 Biden won not due to a more sophisticated understanding of things, but simply because things were bad, and the other guy therefore was the obvious choice. So to overcome an incumbent, you just have to have people believe stuff is bad, and provide some believable explanation that you could fix it.
he STILL doesn't have any understanding of how tarrifs work?
How do you STILL think this isn't all intentional? They know what they're doing. They don't care if we can afford it or not. This is about the conservatives' bottom line, lol. They don't care about you, America, China or whether any of it works.
I believe that he does, and he knows shit will cost more, but he ALSO knows that his followers have no clue whatsoever. So prices will increase, and he'll blame it on one of their many "others". Keeping them scared and mad is the key to their control over them
His followers know he'll deliberately cause instability, that's what they want.
Some people want more expensive shit as long as its made in america or with american goods. Thats the point of a tariff.
But not the idiots that said inflation was their main issue. Trump told them 3 ways he's going to economically hurt them 1. Tariffs 2. Raising taxes (unless you are 1%) and 3. Mass Deportation.
Because he is so senile his brain can't follow a 3 step logic chain anymore.
Brought this up to a friend who is very pro Trump and he said
"Part of trying to get industry back in the country (which we would be better off with) involves making imports less appealing."
These people have no concept of geo politics and global trade. For example, we produce a lot of the world's soy, that's a major export, not many other countries do it on a large scale like that - so we cut the other countries some slack and tell them we won't produce this particular good so you can have a hand in the global economy. Yes having the production here would be ideal as I'm all for it, but the world is so much more than Murica and they can't see past their fucking noses.
It’s way, way more than that. Specialization and comparative advantage underpins the entire globalized economy which is the only way to allow us to get more for the same amount of labor. Without it, we simply regress. US farmers grow soybeans so that Chinese manufactures can make the tractors to allow the US farmers to grow the soybeans, and that only works with free trade. And in this scenario there is no one else making a tractor for anywhere near the same cost, and no one else who can grow such a large volume of soybeans, otherwise the trade probably wouldn’t be happening in the first place. And so the alternative is that both countries have to make both independently. And that is more expensive without the efficiencies of economy of scale, more expensive because of lower supply because we don’t have the capacity to produce that many tractors and China can’t grow that many soybeans, and more expensive because of the infrastructure costs being duplicated and spread out over less units.
And so we both end up with less tractors and less food that are more expensive. Now add in petrochemical fertilizers imported from Canada, steel and coal for the metal used in the tractor imported from Australia, all the industries that support them also getting caught into this, and where every one of those companies is tied into their regional, national, and the global economy. And that is just for tractors and soybeans.
We trade for almost everything. And every single item that we trade, we do so because it is cheaper than making it ourselves. Tariffs are an artificial tax on efficiency, and we are literally less prosperous with them in place. Some things are a matter of national security, of not allowing a foreign government leverage over your society, but we’re talking about his genius plan to put tariffs on literally fucking everything - soybeans and tractors, but also clothing, toys, electronics, appliances, vehicles, on and on and on. And a tariff on it will increase the price, because that is just how economics works.
Yes it does.
Do you know why we outsourced everything to China? Because they can do it cheaper.
You can get it back, have it higher quality, more jobs, better control over it, all that good stuff. But it won't be cheaper.
The US sells things they can make comparatively cheaper (not just price, its an opportunity cost) - better educated population, logistic, access to raw material, infrastructure investments. China sells things they can do cheaper - usually the fact that life is cheap in China.
Does he also know local companies will capitalise on the price increase?
Current import price: 80
Current USA made price: 100
Tariff import price: 200
Tariff USA made price: 190
Trump is banking on foreign companies moving their operations to the US. There's also a high chance that Trump actually won't do anything. The guy talks a lot.
It will take more than 4 years to move much of anything to the US. Will anyone think it's worth it?
I hope Trump turns out to be the best president in history. Prove me wrong, conservatives. I want to hear how it's going by the fourth year.
Everyone who says he's not the best President ever will be shot.
I mean, what do you think? He announced that. Apparently this is what the US-Citizens want.
It’s that damn reality that needs to be punished. Stupid facts and laws of economics making Trump look worse than he is.
I had similar thoughts in 2016 when he had a first attempt, and it was a dumpster fire. I'm not optimistic this time around.
Dumpster Fire has evolved into a Garbage Dump Fire.
That’s all cool and nice, but let’s see what happens to the prices when Taiwan gets invaded.
Had
a friendan acquaintance of mine say that this wouldn't happen because "Trump hates China so he'll defend Taiwan" He'll also "support Israel so Iran won't get so uppity!" He also believes that whilst Ukraine is probably fucked, at least the war will be over.That's nice, isn't it?
That’s fine, you’re all ok with American made laptops, right?
Do those exist? And what about all the internal components?
I believe the internals are all made from freedomite and it’s all a brand new design.
They're state of the art, made from the finest balsa wood!
Just like russian laptops. Except instead of being built like a tank they are built from toilet paper.
Does "designed in California" count?
I'm actually happy about no Chinese goods. It's probably the only thing I kinda agree with about Trump
I'm involved in the manufacturing sector. At recent trade shows, we've been hearing that a lot of companies were holding off on making decisions about purchasing goods and machinery until after the election, though no one was saying much specifically about what each candidate would mean for their decisions. This article seems to say the outlook isn't super rosy and his initiatives don't make a ton of sense.
I’m in manufacturing within China. While I’m not American and don’t work with American companies. Lots of our supply chain has said there is high levels of uncertainty in projects. Projects have been on hold for months.
Seeing a stark void of "Fuck China" posts all of a sudden. Crazy what happens when the treat train gets held up at the border.
No you don’t understand, Mexico is going to pay for, sorry I mean, China is going to pay the tariffs.
Fuuuuuuuck me I wanted a new PC & a new laptop. How much time do I have before this hits?!
My phone was on its way out so I got something with better translation features and support for my move to Germany. Was it expensive? Yes. Is it less expensive than it will be? Also yes.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this causes scalpers to start hoarding goods again like they did during the pandemic. Artificial scarcity but still cheaper than the official price on Amazon or whatever.
Companies are pre-buying goods and laying off workers already, so why wouldn’t the citizenry?
New Ryzen 7 got released too. Looks cool
Things like this take a while to finalize, so you're good for now. Just wait until Black Friday to buy anything, since it's so soon and lots of computer stuff goes on sale.
FYI: companies will do 2 things to make black friday kinda suck these days
-
Prices will go up before black friday so they can have an exagerated sale/discount.
-
Some companies will make units specifically for black friday. Usually cheaper, less features, and sometimes less reliable.
Figure out what you want now.
-
Used electronics go brrrrrr
Yayyyy, right as Windows 10 is going EOL and Windows 11 doesn't work on BIOS systems we're seeing a big increase in prices!
Used electronics you already own goes brrr Used electronics for sale will go up in price, because the seller needs money to buy new electronics or maybe food
You guys buy new? In Putin Russia we make our own laptops from dishwashers!
Imported from Ukraine!More seriously, I use some i5-2700 desktop computer and just happy.
I hate this because for Europe it will become expensive too, just for the heck of it.
Do his tariffs affect exports to the EU as well? Idk economics and I wanna buy a Framework laprop next year
something about leopards and faces
Its a shame I don't have enough for solar yet. If you get it now its like getting a free battery if they are all getting a 40% hike. Probably gonna get rid of the tax incentive too cause the rich need it more too right?!
Probably worth financing it. What you lose in interest costs will probably be worth it if these tariffs go through.
You aren't wrong but my goals to pay off my car loan first and that should be done in a year. Sucky timing I guess.
The world will be split between countries that trade freely with China and countries that don't.
This will be the test and control for whether trading with China is good or bad.
Turns out it's bad, but since we all moved our industry there. Well shits fucked.
Other countries are reporting different and positive results. I think this is the kind of thing that we will see the outcome of decades later. It will be interesting to see how much of the perceived negative impact is due to ingrained racism and xenophobia especially in the West.
Implying I could afford that shit in the first place 🤡
No more computers for you!
I'm european lol
China loosing USA as a buyer would mean raising prices for other countries to make up for the loss.
At some point it becomes easier to just travel to places to buy your gpus and such. When I was in Singapore, their prices on electronics were both good and compatible with my own stuff. I visit there to see an old MMO friend and it's just... Closer to the source, I guess.
It sucks the prices will go up, and I'm not saying I want this but I feel like they would go up higher than this based on what he said.
I'm not sure what's worse. the fact you can understand the incoherence or that you believed any of it.
Oh no, what will I ever do if I can't keep buying stuff I dont need.
"Americans might have trouble expressing greedy tendencies under a Trump presidency."
The entitlement of americans is absurd. Palestinian children are killed with made in america bombs while our population weeps over its loss of made in china electronics.
Clearly the american dream is dead if you can't replace your computer every year.
Your post right there? That's one of the reasons Harris lost.
Of course people (not just Americans) are selfish. Doesn't matter if it's good or not, that's just the factual truth. The Republicans knew how to work with that, by selling the voters a solution to the things that actually interested them. That's also what helped Obama ("Hope", though a bit vague) and Bill Clinton ("It's the economy, stupid") get elected (Yes, it also didn't hurt that they were rock stars). Now the Democrats are perceived not only as a party that's not willing to work on issues that concern them, but as actually criticizing them for wanting what they want.
