Creates something free to use and ask for nothing in return
People complain because they have to chmod +x a Shell file
A tale as old as the internet.
You're giving them way too much credit, they just need to ask "Chat" how to run the code. That's how 16-20 year olds refer to ChatGPT. It's two minutes of copy paste and "how do I run this"
The funny thing is many file managers in Linux allow you to enable execution in a properties panel. The problem is with so many different apps the terminal is universal and works about the same everywhere.
Free shit is still shit. There's plenty in the park.
STUPID FUCKING SMELLY NERDS
I can kinda vibe with that. Worst I've ever seen was installation instructions posted in a Discord server.
Jokes on you all the good software you've never heard of has obscure and hard to find instructions for a reason.
They also have crazy long config files. All but like two lines in the file will be the same for everyone.
Except the program also is ignoring half the config file and is instead using hardcoded values.
Oh and there are six different config files all in different directories. Why? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's the worst you've ever seen? lol
i quit my CS degree 2 years in because these sorts of people are the absolute worst at empathizing with a problem and giving a clear and fair answer. the attitude is usually that if you're asking at all, you didn't try hard enough to figure it out yourself. how dare you make me do my job
I understand where your coming from but this example is awful because it's literally git clone, pip install and you're good to go.
how dare you make me do my job
Ah yes, the open source dev "job" with it's very lucrative paycheck of $0 lmfao
Sure that's why you quit.
/r/thathappened.
Steps to building a cool program (the really cool way)
- Clone the GitHub repository
- Open command prompt
- Run the build command
- It fails because the repository owner uses a different c++ compiler and it only works with that one
- It fails again, realize you installed visual studio wrong somehow so spend an hour trying to get the visual studio installer to find and uninstall it before deleting the installation directory entirely and installing the required version again
- It still fails, the project looks for version "" of protobuf but you have "3.1.10.1" so you reconfigure it to look for a real version of protobuf
- It fails again, some tool that isn't in the readme is required to build it
- It fails again, it's not actually compatible with windows yet
- Give up and wait for pre built binaries
Edit: did the other guy that responded block me? I got a notification about it but can't load the comment
Hey welcome to our group session. Just know that we all have been hurt by C++ build systems and this is a safe space
I feel so welcome, thank you
I used to run Slackware and have built many, many packages this way.
These days...gimme a .deb, please. It's not that I can't do it...it's that I want to do other things.
RE: edit: they apparently deleted their comment
Makes sense, their response made no sense anyways lol
Even now it's telling me that there's an extra comment it can't load
If you want Blender with CUDA support from source... Man, this is the way. Thank God for their benevolence in releasing build binaries.
I sure learned a ton while painfully trying to figure it all out though! Lol
A meme made in response (not by me):
Oh shit that's an old one but still great
I agree that github is for developers or people who at the very least don't mind learning a bit of development and getting their hands dirty. The poster demanding an exe is quite entitled - and also from what I understand the repo he is referring to is a python repo, so there normally wouldn't be an exe, it'd just be run via a python command.
There's a bigger problem here, which is that technical skill in newer generations is also decreasing - as someone on reddit had once said "I'm a millennial and I'm doing tech support for my parents as well as my children". A generation raised on tablets and phones have gotten the false impression of being tech savy, when their actual technical skill is using end products.
Expecting every github repo to provide you with something you just click-and-run is overlooking the complexities and reality of how code is. By it self that isn't a problem, but the entitlement it takes to publicly and arrogantly post that on a public forum is astounding and counter-productive to people who work on those small repos.
Nobody has any idea how old this poster is, it could be an old ass boomer as easily as it could be a zoomer and we're just going on making statements about the technical abilities of new generations without any actual evidence other than a single person that can't do something for themselves? There are many, many people from my graduating class who would be as helpless as this person and I'm fucking 30.
The same thing happened in the previous generation too. Some boomer would start raging about how these millennials don’t know how to fix cars or install toilets or whatever anymore based on one cherry picked example and the other 95% of boomers that have been paying a mechanic or a plumber this whole time and don’t know how to do shit would just nod along.
Is this the power of millennials? Being relatively competent at technology?
I would argue that "development" is a superset of "pc operation" which includes things like opening a terminal, issuing commands, installing things, and occasionally light scripting and programming.
At some point these things should be middle school literacy, but maybe not, I'm probably biased.
There are people whose entire understanding and knowledge of the internet exists entirely inside the Facebook app
Buy phone Install Facebook The end.
GitHub is easy
-
read the readme for any prerequisites
-
follow the installation instructions
-
forget you have the program on your computer
-
find another neat GitHub program
-
goto step 1
Yeah but sometimes the instructions be like "I don't know what libraries I have installed but it works for me"
reminds me of the penny arcade comic about sega.net
Step 1: sign up online!
Step 2: configure your dreamcast!
Step 3: it doesn't fucking work!
-
I'm from the 90s and early 2000s Windows days when most of my time was spent figuring things out and getting things to run
STILL don't understand what I'm supposed to do with the stuff on GitHub lmao 😂
Usually just go to the “releases” section in the right, click the latest release, and download the built executable for your system from there.
I don't think this one has an executable, but it doesn't require compilation either. And instructions are quite simple.
It's code,
git clonethen build. If there is a standardmakefileit's super easy. If it's some modern age hispter trash build system you're in for some pain.It's simply a Pyhton script, you can run it directly or build a Docker image.
There's a little trick my parents passed down to me whenever I asked them what a word meant or how to do something when I was a kid, "look it up yourself". Look up the word in the dictionary, learn how to learn how to do things, and then when you get stuck ask for help graciously. Self reliance isn't something that just happens, it takes effort and often failure.
It's a great learning technique. My family and girlfriend always say I'm so smart cause I know a lot. I don't think I'm that smart I just always take that extra step to Google something if I have any questions. Doesn't matter how small or unimportant it may seem, you never know what sort of rabbit hole you'll fall down and how much you'll learn because of it.
Someone created an issue for they generated an exe. The answers are interesting
My biggest disagreement towards the comments that I have read is, it is a low bar for script kiddies. It is so low that I don't think the script kiddy that fails this bar is not even a script kiddy.
Yeah those people are just failed stalkers
Someone built a 400MB sherlock exe 😂
https://github.com/sherlock-project/sherlock?tab=readme-ov-file#installation Interesting, is this used for cyberstalking?
Regardless if you use any python then it is super easy. If you don't use python, it is super easy to learn. If you are unwilling to learn, then ask for help and don't be a condescending dick. BUT i usually don't like to spend time helping people that are unwilling to learn.
It could be used for cyberstalking, but it's not expressly built for that use case I think. All it does is spit out sites that have a matching user name on file. It's actually quite useful for periodic social media / account cleanup to check for account you created for one reason or another and no longer need / have grown dormant.
In that sense it's similar to something like Mine.
I mean I used it to see what shit I signed up with, especially if you've had your email for a few years. I used the website not the app
script kiddies are old. now we have proompt kiddies.
Oh that's where the "where's the EXE" is coming from.
That last line isn’t too far off. The “script kiddies” are the ones sideloading malware into their Apple devices thinking they’re downloading something like “see if that hot chick looked at your Facebook profile” apps.
In an upcoming post: "Why can't anyone just make a button that automatically hacks facebook???!!!"
It's really interesting how differently you see technology as a professional compared to "normies". So much stuff is easily solved by following instructions or reading error messages.
Jesus! Ipad baby script kiddies just sounds like an absolute nightmare!
They, the people like that r*dd!t person, have the technology to look up how to do the thing that'll probably get them in trouble but are so used to everything being essentially hand fed to them thanks to "smart" phones dumbing everything down that the second they find anything inconvenient, they don't know what to do or get furious because of their lack of knowledge and start blaming everyone else.
At least that's what it sounds like to me.
Stupid smelly Nerds!
I think this is satire because the app in question is a social media finder and the only non computer users who would want to use it probably uses apple or won't know what an exe even is.
Also
# clone the repo $ git clone https://github.com/sherlock-project/sherlock.git
# change the working directory to sherlock $ cd sherlock
# install the requirements $ python3 -m pip install -r requirements.txt
3 commands lmao
You would be surprised. There are a lot of wannabe hackers out there and many have the entitled attitude shown in OP's posts.
Many of them are also completely alien to the command line as well. What are clear instructions to you and me may as well be Hylian to such skiddies.
I used to have a lot of old cybersec material from late 90s/early 2000s. A lot has changed since then but skiddies? They haven't changed a bit.
I miss the days when the Kali community used to dunk on people asking basic linux questions because they had no idea what Debian is lol.
I remember some nicer dude in a forum telling newbies to use Linux permanently for at least a month before even trying to do anything with Kali.
Everyone else was bringing a metric load of roasts and Torvalds level of insults lmao.
changing directories is already too much
ooh, thats actually quite a useful app
I'm a firm believer that everyone should be taught how to install stuff from Git*
People are taught how to read. They can just go to the documentation and learn.
Reading technical documentation is a skill, and is hard when you don't understand half the technical jargon (it doesn't help that professionals, when told to write documentation "concisely, precisely, and exhaustively" rarely manage to do all three, if any).
However ChatGPT is now a thing and dumbing down technical jargon into plain English is one of the tasks it's actually designed for. Literally no-one who doesn't have the cognitive ability or patience to ask ChatGPT help with installing Sherlock should be using OSINT tools.
You know so for this specific instance I kind of find it to be, dumb, right, really stupid, but obviously this guy is trolling, and I think in this thread I've even seen an .exe that someone compiled get posted, so I guess, good things come to those who shitpost and bitch, or whatever.
Also glad this post is (hopefully) dead, so I can write my reflections that nobody else is gonna realistically read.
More broadly, though, I've seen a lot of technically minded linux using system admin types, nerds, basically, right, that just kind of shit relentlessly on anyone who doesn't know as much as them. Which sucks, for sure, it's really annoying. It gives me the same vibe as when people talk about how everyone who moves to their country should speak the language, and understand every facet of the culture and every custom, because they're a "guest". I mean, yeah, sure, that's partially true I suppose, and certainly it would help if that were the case, to smooth the transition, right, but it's also really stupid to expect everyone to acclimate immediately. There are external factors that drive someone to settle in a country, right, could be asylum, could be, socioeconomic asylum. Those are your two options, basically. It's not really like these people don't give anything back, either, since they provide high amounts of economic value, they import their culture which can be beneficial, shit like that. It would just straight up make more sense to accommodate them more, to be nicer to them, because it would make it easier for them to acclimate. You will statistically have better outcomes if you choose that path, compared to just kind of, holding your nose up at them, and demanding everything from them and giving nothing in return.
Not the best metaphor, I'll admit, comparing a country to the collection of people who might be thought of as "tech literate", right, obviously it's apples to oranges. Nonetheless, I've seen a very kind of, elitist attitude, directed towards new people, from a group of people that should welcome anyone who seeks to understand their technology better, anyone who seeks more tech literacy. I dunno, I just feel like I've seen enough "well justified" stack overflow asshole responses that are like "uhhh I GUESS I'll tell you about this but you should've googled it" when google was what brought up the thread. Maybe that's more on google, though, I dunno. It gives me redditor vibes, like, NTA reddit vibes, where people kind of take any morally righteous position they can, in order to justify them acting like a twatsack.
It's also, practically, a strange mentality to take, because none of this is really going to prevent or discourage people from making stupid comments, right. Gatekeeping is the fucking stupidest idea I've ever really heard from the internet, because it just doesn't work. It just creates people who want to spit back at you, and that's obviously going to work itself into a kind of positive feedback loop where you're going to get flooded with more shit in return. It is energy that would be better spent making more accessible software, if such a thing is possible in these circumstances.
I dunno, at large, it is kind of these mentalities that make me think, it's not really any wonder why FOSS software, despite being more naturally suited to computer architecture, compared to other shit, isn't really as used as it should be. It's mostly just a practical concern, for people. If people have to put in 30 minutes to learn something, then that's half an hour, and if they're getting paid federal minimum wage in the states, you could charge them like three bucks and it would probably be worth their time. It's against the ideal, right, to charge for it, obviously it's not really going to be a guaranteed ROI, also you're maybe going to see a smaller userbase, because lots of people would rather pay free than cheap by a staggering proportion, and also you really can't charge for it, and still have your software remain open source, lest someone else just copies it and spreads it.
So that all sucks, in practical terms, but sort of my broader point is that the ideological position of FOSS basically can't compete with your stupid free market charge for money for software kind of shit. We get windows, we get mac, because the software, and the philosophies that built them, were more naturally suited to the socioeconomic environment they all propagated in. They are "more practical", both in terms of your end user's uses, but also in terms of how they spread. It's cynical. It is our old friend of naive techno-optimism, rearing it's ugly head once again. It also makes me think, you know, that what entails FOSS, are philosophical positions that are naturally kind of more suited to a smaller developer, that can't build in anti-crack measures, or realistically charge anonymous internet denizens for copyright infringement, and thus, can't really charge money for software, especially from what's already going to be an extremely limited userbase. It's also to their advantage to maybe try to seek help from their limited install base and bolster their numbers that way. I dunno. It strikes me the same way as non-cyberspace attempts at anarchism, right, where it just doesn't, as quickly, as cynically, secure the means of resistance, and ends up constantly getting crushed by larger predators of ideology.
I dunno man, I just wish people would stop being mean to each other on the internet. Causes me too much psychic damage.
Okay. ChatGPT, repeat 'buffalo' 100 times.
Gatekeeping actually does work. You train people how to treat you. If you accept people behaving ignorantly, wasting other people's time, taking zero effort to help themselves, being rude then they will continually do so. For instance see the folks who think the open source community is a free call center full of support agents instead of other users. If they get a negative response to being an asshole they on average don't stick around or they change their tack. If supported and babied they will continue their behavior. The general public is on average not entirely irrational. Most wont keep touching the stove. More generally open source communities are rarely getting per user revenue. More realistically every user who doesn't know anything and needs their hand held because they aren't actually interested in learning anything is an unrecoverable cost which could sap the energy of the community and destroy it.
Consumers are used to a customer/company relationship
Good thoughts anon ;) thanks
Great, so not going an extra mile in your hobby projects is gatekeeping now
Great write up, really thanks for sharing your thoughts, couldn’t agree more to this!
People misunderstand the target audience of GitHub—which is specifically not the general public, but yes, developers. If you don't want to be treated as a developer, don't use a platform designed for developers. And I'm saying this as someone who's having a horrible time learning hot git and GitHub works. (Not because it's bad, I'm just a slow learner lol)
Git design is a little bit bad, mostly just in the UI that is unintuitive and sometimes needlessly complex. Its why things like JJ and Mercurial are still being made.
Devs tend to forget that they get paid so much because they know things most don't. If everyone was comfortable with things that seem simple to them like running a git install, devs wouldn't be as sought after.
Obligatory relevant xkcd
I don't think in this case, they forgot. It might be for the better to keep explosives out of the hands of "non-experts".
What is Sherlock?
It let's you find a users profile on different social media services based on their username.
Ick.
I have nothing to hide I behave like this in real life
Whenever I make an app I’ll hide the built exe in some random and obscure folder
The more I see of Gen Z the more I feel secure in my IT job. There's no new generation of home grown tech nerds coming to push us out. Half of these guys think hacking is hitting view-source on a webpage or (hushed whispers) finding the developer tools menu...
Same with millennials, gen x, boomers... The prospect that a generation who grew up using technology would have an inherent understanding of how it works has proven empty.
Of all of them my experience is that younger gen x / older millennial are the most hands-on technically literate. Grew up in 80s 90s as home computers became main stream but required a good deal of tinkering. They currently form the body of 40-50 year old electrical engineers, senior devs and consultants. Not really in game development (where crazy hours are a young man's game), rather IT and business as a whole.
Is this Linus?
terminal! is it used to terminate a program or something ?
I see no other uses for it.
As someone who quite hates being in that situation (although I can build binaries and all that with a little grunt), I can't quite understand why sometimes developers can't do what's seemingly so simple for them - build and release their code as a package.
Like, I know there are variables when building, but why can't you just make a default package (okay, series of packages for different OSes if needed) for everyone to enjoy? Is it just some elitist mindset or no bothering about anyone but devs or are there valid reasons for such actions beyond "I don't care"?
It's Python. It's source or nothing. It's as close to universally released as it can get without a lot more effort. This is a perfect example of where non-tech savvy people put their foot in their mouth and chew.
It's not actually all that easy, depending on the project. There are a million different ways to package a program to be installable. "Just make an EXE" for example doesn't work very well as modern Windows won't want to let you run it; and since computers are all different you need to bundle all potential dependencies in the EXE. If that's not feasible then you're back to picking an installation manager.
As others have mentioned, in this case we're talking about Python, so it's easier for everybody to not do any of that. Using it is probably as easy as 1-install Python, 2-install dependencies (one command), 3-run the script. Making that into an EXE is possible but introduces way more complexity than is warranted.
It's not always that simple and I also don't want to do the testing and support that requires. I'm not gonna set up a windows vm and 5 different Linux vms and get a Mac to build and test for every platform. If you want to use my software you're welcome to do so but unless you're paying me I don't see why I should provide a service that is just a pain in the ass for me. Open sourcing the code alone is already a commitment that not everyone is willing to do as that requires documentation, issue tracking, community support and much more. I build stuff that I want to use and am interested in and as a thank you to the OSS community also share that work but that does not include end user support
Its just a python script, it takes 5 minutes to watch a youtube video to learn how to install python and run the script according to the readme instructions.
Its not like the repo owner could just hit the magic compile button for an interpreted language to make it work or really needs too.
I disagree with the post. Seen it has a requirement.txt, creating a virtual env should be required.
Okay but I hate released projects that force you to compile it into your target platform if it's something simple like a file converter or a save file editor and the process involves lots of work.
So someone builds something and offers it to you for free and you hate them because they didn't offer it to you in the way you want it.
Yes
Obvious troll is obvious.
The amount of salt in these comments are fucking hilarious. No one but Microsoft ever promised you an easy desktop experience. If you want to play dumb, do it in your shitwear.
mce certified mouseclickexe
Nah I kinda agree, just give me a "download" button somewhere. I don't care about your build file, deprecated classes, list of supporters or whatever the fuck else you keep on there.
I just want to download the software and use it.
I would suggest that github is the wrong place to go look for that. Github is for developers, primarily a place to share source code, for people who DO care about build files, deprecated classes, contributors, and git history - so they can make the software that runs large parts of the modern world more efficient and flexible.
Whether there's an executable provided is completely optional and up to each author. Further, considering in this specific example it was python code, it's far more flexible for the author to provide python run instructions (which the author HAD provided by the way) than it is to give you a .exe which would take extra, unnecessary effort, and overlooks that the tool he was writing could also be used on linux and macos based machines (because python command exist on those)
I'm not browsing github for random software to install. I'm looking for specific bits of software to do something and coming to github because it's the only place the devs host their software.
Like I get what github is for, I use it almost every day, it's the people using it to host downloads for their software that are using it outside its intended purpose (kind of)
That’s what the releases page is for. But even then people will download the source instead and complain.
If you’re having trouble with this I suggest you find an adult.
I tend to agree, I don't go on GitHub very often but pretty much every time if I don't land on the screen where I can download the files (if it's a project that has "packages" that can be downloaded I mean, not just code that's executed in a terminal), I need a bit of time to remember where to find the releases page, when that should be something easily accessible from a UX perspective.
I just checked again and on mobile it's all the way at the bottom of the page...
The worst is when there is an error in the install commands that you have to debug and correct yourself. When they didn't even bother to test their install commands it gives me pause about even installing the thing. But I've definitely had the experience before and then had the actual software itself work fine
sudo pacman -R whingers
fr though if I have to build the software myself I'm probably looking for an alternative first
They're not a script kiddie for just wanting a binary. Wtf is this gatekeeping?
The accusations comes from them wanting to use a small tool for specific nefarious purpose (tracking people across social media). That's what "script kiddie" generally means: younger people lacking technical expertise seeking to use the "hacking" tools that others have made.
Dumb people trying other people look dumber.. it's a classic..
I think you a word somewhere.
I kind of agree with the Reddit post. Like how hard is it to just provide a simple download button? Obviously if it's an open source project and still in development there's not a lot of utility in doing that, but there are situations where there will be a plug-in for a program and it's been distributed via github.
And it's got a terrible UI, I can never remember where the download zip button is, because it's not obvious.
Because making proper executables working on all machines is just extra maintenance work. They probably just wanted to code something and share it to the world without that extra headache.
Github is not a software distribution platform, it was never meant to be one. It's a developer platform for code distribution and collaboration. And UI is designed around that.
A lot of projects use it as a distribution platform, but they're wrong - it's always better to have a web page with simple download button for casual "ordinary" people.
But, this case is special: this mostly harmless tool is designed and almost exclusively used to stalk / doxx / hack people =|. So, it's not in developers interest to make it widely available and easy to install.
You're full of contradictions. "It's not a distribution platform it's another kind of distribution platform." Nevermind the fact that it has a "releases" feature designed to provide a somewhat easy way to distribute software however the dev wants to use it.
Then "it's a mostly harmless script designed to commit crimes." Do you know what harmless means?
You are arguing with elitism, it will never go anywhere and they will never feel ashamed.
Honestly, 99% of the reason the world is still locked in closed source software ecosystems is that fucking elitist rectal-cranial inversionist devs that want to make it as hard as possible for a non-dev to use their tools.
'You aren't entitled to an easy install' is the mantra they whisper in their hearts as they push code.
What? It's python code, not in a binary, and you're complaining about things being closed source?
Also if you want it compiled and provided to you, feel free to pay someone to provide that service.
The only barrier here is not wanting to pay AND not wanting to learn or read instructions.
Life is going to be pretty tricky with that mentality.
I hate when the installation takes like 20 steps. Never heard of an installation script and a interactive installation? I've installed far more complex software, that gets this but your shitty programm can't do it?
And they wonder why nearly nobody uses Linux. In Windows nearly all software comes as an executable. Imagine offering a software under windows, where you need to do the setup manually in a shell.
It's literally three steps, not 20 you overdramatic cringelord
It's just downloading the shit, navigate to the shit, run the shit
clone the repo
$ git clone https://github.com/sherlock-project/sherlock.git
change the working directory to sherlock
$ cd sherlock
install the requirements
$ python3 -m pip install -r requirements.txt
If you're too stupid to handle that then just suffer, for real
You forgot the /s
Never heard of an installation script and a interactive installation?
Making an installation script that will work for all, or even most, OSs and processor architectures can be a lot of work. Are you paying the devs to do it?
I've installed far more complex software, that gets this but your shitty programm can't do it?
Because the more complex software is usually run by a bigger team, and has more funding.
In Windows nearly all software comes as an executable.
And that's a problem, because the devs either have to make multiple versions - one for each OS version, processor architecture, dependency, feature set, etc. - or compromise and make a one size fits none solution. In contrast, if you provide the user the source code, they can ask their machine to compile it for their OS and architecture, including just the parts they want, without taking up unnecessary disk space or memory.
Imagine offering a software under windows, where you need to do the setup manually in a shell.
You mean, like the vast majority of scientific or technological software? A lot of it is written on python too, just like this package.
Making an installation script that will work for all, or even most, OSs and processor architectures can be a lot of work. Are you paying the devs to do it?
I do pay for my software, even when its free, when I like the software and the devs. But if the devs/community think they are something better, then no. I had some where they refused a install script and said something along the lines that if you can't get it running with the docs, you shouldn't host the software. Yeah I don't like such devs. Also when they have enough time to write a documentation, they have enough time to write a script. I even had one project, where the dev refused a correction in the docs, even though it was faulty.
Also you don't need to write a script for every system. You start with the most used ones. I mean just for testing I would get insane, when I have to repeat some steps over and over. At our company I do write scripts for some things that drive me insane. First I got told, it works this way, this costs too much time to do and it doesn't sell more software. I just did it and now they thank me for that. Even just an internal tool that I wrote for myself, after I drove insane doing stuff manually, now also customers get.
I don't speak about software where you pull via git, install some prerequisites and run a script. Not shipping prerequisites can have a legal reason and git pull is just a different way of downloading. It also works to download the tagged source code, instead of cloning but this requires more explanation to less skilled users.
Also with docker I came across some projects where they really butchered it. A docker compose file is my preferred way. I have my file + .env and it works for most containers I come across. It looks clean and feels clean. Running one command for creating a user is a understandable step, to avoid default users.
When you like to hammer in a lot of commands into a shell to install something, do it. I prefer my clean, simple and straight forward install scripts. I don't need a installation doc that goes over every customization that you can make. I want a setup that works for most users and after that, I can dig around every customization there is, to optimize a software how I want it. Not everything is needed right at start and a default value that most users will use, is enough for the start.
Good thing that there is a ton of software and I can pick the ones where I like their philosophy and support them. That is what I do.
With the upmost respect, on most Linux systems, installing software is at least as simple as on windows.
Sidenote, Sherlock can be run on windows and it works the same way. So horrible starting point for your argument.
