Its only a genocide if it comes from the third reich. Anything else is just sparkling ethnic cleansing.
Turkey: See I told you guys
Japan, after decimating Ainu people and brutally murdering Chinese and Korean people in the occupied territories: "uwu"
It's probably all the radiation.
Being on the wrong side of history on the same topic 75 year apart
I as a german asked an expert on that topic. Chatgpt. According to chatGPT there is no genocide if you don't kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet. So if for example you drop accidentally poison into their water because you mixed the Botox and sugar bottle in the water station then even if they all die it is not a genocide.
And since chatgpt is infallable this is the only truth.
Good thing then that Israeli politicians haven’t been on record saying that Gaza needs to be "wiped from the face of the Earth"!
I know your being sarcastic but I just want to point out that this is incorrect
here is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet
If you plan to cull a demographic by only 10% its still genocide according to the UN. This is the definition that South Africa's case at the ICJ will be ruled under. Under this definition all ethnic cleansing requires genocide.
Fire Nation: "We never did the Air Nomad genocide. We didn't intend to kill them all, we only intended to kill one guy"
Yeah, genocide often requires intent. So I guess this could be more of a massacre than a genocide.
But there's quite a few different definitions, some are more lax.
Except for all the politicians, from shutzstaffel commanders to the (Hitler apologist) PM's PR guy saying exactly this, using words like cexterminate' 'wipe from the earth' 'every last one' and many individual storm troopers posting on their social media (in videos while doing war crimes), or even their 'civilians' frequently saying it
Edit: nevermind. It wasnt a press guy; their pm.said it himself. Of course it did.
Teeeeensy nitpick: there are two definitions of genocide that have ever mattered. Two. Not many. Two.
Lemkins original, much much broader, definition, And the one you're familiar with, adopted by the UN because like everyone on the permanent security council thing had an interest in the definition being a little more narrow. Under which the way the Palestinian people are being exterminated absolutely still counts.
Interestingly, by lemkin's broader definition, making the shutzstaffel stop killing Palestinians might constitute a genocide of the kapostanis; it would be destroying every trace of their culture, and the means of its reproduction.
To meet the legal definition of genocide, you also have to have the intent to destroy a particular group of people. So, legally speaking, your example isn't genocide according to any source.
I don't know the motives behind the Israel/Palestine conflict or how it started, but if it doesn't involve an intent to destroy Palestinians specifically, I guess I could see how GPT's take is valid. Like, the war in Ukraine is egregious too, but that by itself doesn't make it a genocide.
Deliberate displacement of particular ethnic or religious groups is also recognized as genocide, in particular because it's often a pretext. ChatGPT is wrong, and needs to read the UN definition.
I don't know the motives behind the Israel/Palestine conflict or how it started
Religion
How it started: the Ottomans sided with the Nazis, so when they lost, the Ottomans also lost their land and the Allies got it, following the usual war rule where the winner wins the land. Dividing up the land is where the British Mandate for Palestine came from, under which we gave 2/3 of the land to the Arabs (Transjordan) and 1/3 of the land to Israel. But the Arabs refused to accept this and started the first of a series of wars against Israel. The Arabs, now also partially known as Palestinians, have continually refused to accept any peace deal, starting wars whenever possible and so far losing every one of them. Israel has repeatedly accepted peace deals, even at the cost of land, but it only works if both sides agree, which they don't: the only deal the Arabs want is all the land and no Israel, which also means no Jews (proof: look at the Jewish communities within existing Arab states (TLDR: non-existent or shrinking)), which means the Arabs are hellbent on a genocide of all the Jews, and are determined to achieve that or die trying.
(Preface: I am team genocide. I also live in Germany. Germany's politics are a disgrace, but I digress.)
What annoys me about this is that this discussion gets so much media attention and focus, while it doesn't matter in this very moment. I understand that there are implications if it will be defined as a genocide. But right now people are being killed every day en masse and they frankly give a crap about whether they died in a mass murder or terrorist attack or a genocide.
It reminds me of the early days of the Ukraine war when everyone was so obsessed with comparing Putin to Hitler (Putler is still a popular term) and the discussion was high on whether Putins actions amount to fascism or not, with a lot of internet laymen but also experts on that subject chiming in. When I asked a half Russian, half Ukrainian what their opinion was, their reply was something like "who the fuck cares? Call it a chicken pea pie, nobody cares, people are being killed, I don't give a crap. Somewhen in the future people will be looking back and asking the same question, but it doesn't matter right now." And it stuck with me.
If I understand correctly, the ICJ will rule again on the case in a couple of years (?), which obviously isn't relevant right now. It seems like the ruling would have an aftermath in retrospect but even if they ruled it were a genocide today, nothing much would change directly - but please correct me if I am wrong here.
But what definitely doesn't matter is what we think. What matters is what is happening. And it doesn't need a name to be evil and detrimental.
Germany has supplied 30% of Israel s weapons, and has continued to do so during this ongoing genocide. If Germany or the US were to acknowledge the ongoing genocide, they'd have to stop supplying those arms immediately, hence stopping the annihilation of Gaza. So it's of immense importance to keep repeating what most of the world already acknowledges: this is a genocide, and those arming the perpetrators are complicit in their crimes. History will not judge Germany kindly, but I guess that's not exactly a new thing for a veteran perpetrator of genocide.
Ok, this sounds valid. But what would oblige them to stop them from delivering weapons if the ICJ rules it is a genocide? Is there any legal obligation, can they denounce the ruling?
If you mean acknowledge in a sense of civilian/political acknowledgement, then my issue with it is that it shouldn't be necessary to be this anal about some definition. It's splitting hairs on cut off heads. Supporting mass murder is wrong in the context of genocide as well as outside of it. It shouldn't be necessary to convince the governments that it is a genocide to convince them to stop supplying weapons.
American companies allegedly kept on working with Nazi Germany after the US entered the war. Therefore, unless Israel gets on the UN stand and says, "Yes, we're committing genocide and y'all's are next" no one will let non-white deaths affect the bottom line.
”i am team genocide"
-volvoxvsmarla
I dunno, can we trust them? Agree tho; people are dying and it needs to stop no matter what we call it, even if there were no larger implications; its fucking pointless and needs to stop.
Well, he is right, its mass murdering, but not genocide.
Wait until we find his 2012 Twitter handle calling everyone but Titans unnecessary
If I randomly kill all humans it would be genocide. I absolutely hate the common usage of the word, but killing all humans definitely would be genocide.
It's still genocide if somebody survives. Otherwise Holocaust wouldn't be a genocide.
Killing 50% of any one people is genocide, right? For example, the Nazis killed up to 50% of European Romani people and it is classified as a genocide.
Let's assume killing 50% of n peoples is genocide.
Since killing 50% of n peoples is genocide, killing 50% of n+1 peoples must also be genocide, else a number N would exist such that killing 50% of N - 1 peoples is genocide but killing 50% of N peoples is not. The existence of such a number N would be quite contradictory, as it would imply one could undo genocide by killing more people. Additionally, if one were to first kill 50% of N - 1 people and then kill 50% of one more people some time later, both events would be classified as genocide, since killing 50% of one people is assumed to be genocide.
Therefore, Thanos did in fact commit genocide.
Israel: [Murdering journalists and foreign aid workers] see? It's not only Palestinians, it's random.
Genocide, as in the legal definition, requires intent. As far as I see it Germany is not even trying to deny anything Israel did or does, or argue evidence in any other way, all the government is basically doing is saying "Your honour, our client can't have intent because they're demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity". Not in that many words, but to that effect.
And a sane person/nation would willingly engage in genocide? Insanity doesn't negate intent, only ones ability to distinguish reality or prevent themselves from carrying out actions they know to be immoral. Inb4 India, China, the USA, and Russia of course but you take my point?
With individuals, criminal insanity means that you can't be held accountable on account of not being able to tell good from wrong: Lacking that ability, you cannot have an intent to do wrong. It's also not a get out of jail free card, it's quite often a get locked into a closed institution for an indeterminate amount of time card, until the doctors decide that you're not a danger to yourself or society. Being judged criminally insane can turn a five-year sentence into de facto life.
And it's not like I personally agree that the notion is really applicable to a people, or that it should be considered when it comes to the genocide convention, but damn someone has to be their defence lawyer -- they certainly aren't capable of defending themselves, pretty much everything they say just makes people more mad, justifiably so. Given Germany's history don't blame us for taking on that role.
Your honour, our client can't have intent because they're demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity". Not in that many words, but to that effect.
That's completely made up, either by you or by another person. What they actually say is that Israel's intent is to defend against the armed attacks of the Hamas, not to commit a genocide.
More like: "Your honor, our client is just trying to defend themselves, they are not doing this to commit a genocide"
The insanity started way before Nazi genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzl's_Mauschel_and_Zionist_antisemitism
That's a spark, not the kindling, much less the oil we poured on top of it. Without that, the "holocaust oil", Israelis would probably be like French levels of patriotic today: Occasionally annoying but harmless and also mostly charming.
it's not genocide, it's war crimes: Germany, 2024
If it weren't tragic, it would be funny.
Germany: "Fucking casuals, you call that a genocide!"
germany really said
I guess they have fairly high standards when it comes to genicide....
In hindsight this should have been posted in the political meme section not here.
My apologies, I'm new to lemmy. Thank you for your patience yall, I'll do better.
A shitpost's a shitpost damnit
great meme OP or should i say groß meme!
Germany, are you going to be responsible for EVERY FUCKING World War you humans fight in!?! Liiiike feck.
I don't get this WW3 talk that seems to only be here on Lemmy. Like, does anyone actually expect any countries with significant global influence to line up behind Hamas?
The closest I can think of is Iran, and they're a regional power at best, and they prefer to work behind the scenes.
No, this will be a nasty little "tempest in a teacup" as always, with lots of onlookers wagging fingers but doing nothing. This is what all neighbouring nations are already doing - in fact they love the fact that Israel's disproportionate response is damaging their reputation. They're more than happy to stand by and watch, as they're the ones who set Gaza up as a punching bag in the first place.
Ukraine is far more likely to evolve into a global conflict, especially with Ukraine's position weakening and Poland chomping at the bit to jump in.
Look if Germany isn't evil, is it even a World War sequel. Come on, the writers need to stay consistent
Is all champaigne from france?
If Germany's not on the wrong(er) side, its just a sparkling global conflict.
😂 but also 😭
Staatsräson 🫠
Germany moment
That is one of Germanys foreign politics problems that for historic reasons it cannot critizise whatever Israel does. If they started beheading children in Jerusalem or bombed orphanages, the German government will turn a blind eye.
At most wag their finger.
it took me way too long to figure out the joke on this one.
I'll see myself out now.
Should say "Genocide Denial Expert" in that plaque.
We should cancel Israel on the internet already
Right now it seems like the effect of people who got bullied in the past is likely to bully people in the future
It would be genocide if they were targeting a particular ethnic group. And please remind me why it's more important to spend UN session time trying to decide whether it it genocide and not, idk, actually taking actions to stopping the war?
They are targeting Palestinians, a particular ethnic group. That's why they are executing unarmed civilians, too bad they got caught when they "felt threatened" by murdering shirtless fleeing Israeli hostages the soldiers thought were Palestinians.
"Gaza beachfront property" is already being carved up.
They have tried to stop the war... With Ceasefire votes... That even the US no longer vetoes..
... Russia and China vetoed. Blame them:
Reuters - "Russia, China veto US-led UN resolution on Gaza ceasefire"
AP - "Russia and China veto US resolution calling for immediate cease-fire in Gaza"
The next best thing is that UN committees can investigate and identify genocide without it necessarily being vetoed. Once the UN and especially ICJ identify such genocide, that adds global pressure; such global pressure leads to supporters of Israel to reconsider holding Israel's hands; hence why the US in an unprecedented move has stepped further away from Israel than it has for decades. People don't understand just how closely-linked Israel and US have been. I never would've thought a sitting US President would say a bad word about Israel/Bibi without fear of major backlash. We're certainly at an inflection point — and it's about fucking time.
Edit: Also, let's not all pretend we're human rights lawyers who can definitively define what is and what isn't genocide. If the ICJ took the case up and thought there was merit in the case, then one should probably hold their tongue; after all, according to the ICC:
First, the crime of genocide is characterised by the specific intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by killing its members or by other means: causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Note: National; note religious; note "whole OR in part" On the flip-side, then we'd have to say Hamas wasn't carrying out an attempt of genocide with October 7th, since they killed Palestinian Muslims among the Jewish population.
It's kind of a moot point. At this point Israel has committed something around 20 October 7ths in the number of civilian deaths they've incurred in Gaza. With an estimated 80:20 civilian-combatant death ratio according to US figures, that's well-above average. Forgetting the fact that more aid workers have died in this war than any previous one in decades... This is a travesty. So the question remains: If we're all pro-civilian and anti-terrorist... Even if Israel didn't do anything in Gaza and just enhanced its border protections, then what are the odds when looking at it from a quantifiable standpoint Hamas would be able to commit another 20 (and counting) October 7ths? (forgetting the fact that even before October 7th the IDF committed the vast-majority of civilian casualties for decades).
Can you blame them? This is what happens when you use the metric system
Imperial coping™
I'm inclined to believe they have the expertise and experience to make this claim.
In a world where they don't have their own agenda (e.g. military income), I'd agree.
In THIS world, where the AfD has a considerable voice and the government blocks itself on gender inclusive language and rather does nothing, I don't. Let's not call it genocide, then we don't have to act. Let's not be too hasty about Putin so we don't have to send any help. Let's think about weed legalization for half a decade to be sure.
I think they're being obstructive on purpose.
Ofc they are being obstructive on purpose.
War is good business.
So are illegal drugs.
Politicians are often on the side of "what makes the most money to the people who give me money", I've found. Wish it weren't so.
I'm not. They've lied about this shit before.
Glad to see Germany addressing the conflict rationally, unlike half of Lemmy which just screams "genocide!" in every thread.
Still waiting to hear an explanation for why there are no Jews in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, and Egypt, when there were historical populations in those countries (hint: it's the G word)
You mean that G word that happened right after Israel came into existence and proceeded to demonstrate its intent to conquer by immediately disregarding its own borders with Palestine?
Genocide ain't it no matter who's doing it and for what reason, but it's real fuckin' convenient to just ignore a major instigating factor that just happens to be the country you're trying to apologism for.
It's the convert word.
Too rational for Lemmy.
We know genocide, we had one
And no, the Herero and Nama genocide wasn't a genocide
Those were practice rounds?
Sparkling Genocide
Its was one, du Lurch. We deliberately drove 80.000 People into the fucking desert and watched as they starved.
They should just give all of Palestine to Israel and be done with it. Give the Palestinians reservations in the US or Canada and just let the Jews live in peace. It's not like Israel is going to cause any problems since it would have all of Israel for itself at that point.
Ah yes, complete the ethnic cleansing of the region... What a wonderfully ethical suggestion /s
Absolutely deranged take.
They should just give all of Palestine to Israel and be done with it.
It already is Israeli territory. There is no state of Palestine. Attempts to formalize statehood were vetoed by the US on Israel's request. Israel opposes Palestinian statehood. There are two formally autonomous regions on Israeli ground, West Bank and Gaza, but those aren't states.
Just give all of Israel to Palestine. It belongs to the Palestinian people. The former Israelis can live in Palestine--there were already Palestinian Jews--but they do not deserve an Israeli government, and ought to give the Palestinians their homes back.
Forgot to say: Is your username "cumskin_genocide"? I'm not using it as an argument, just amused
I don't agree with it, but at least people would stop being slaughtered like cattle.
Hamas supporters so deranged that they're trying to use the past to guilt today's Germans.
When you say Hamas supporter, do you mean netanyahu?
As a German: I think it really is not our job to criticise Israel/the jewish people. There are about 200 other countries that are capable of voicing their opinions. I seriously doubt Hamas left Israel much of a choice, though. They are still keeping and mistreating hostages. What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
No, obviously not.
Killing international aid workers, Palestinian men, women, and children indiscriminately doesn't seem like a viable solution either and calling everyone who criticizes your military policy "anti-Semitic" is not what you should do either.
But it's not so simple and the media reporting is sometimes super biased and misrepresenting things. For example the aid workers that got killed. Before that happened the convoi got hijacked by Hamas fighters that actually started firing first. Somehow all the reports leave out that quite important detail.
It’s one thing to refrain from commenting but supporting Israel makes it clear that Germany learned nothing.
None of the hostages were raped or are being raped. This is total Birth of a Nation, "They're coming for our white women"_ bullshit.
Maybe because what is happening is not genocide?
Youre gonna have to be a bit more specific in your defense. They have been killing all Palestinians, have been saying that all Palestinians are Hamas (including kids), and have said multiple times they want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
How is that not genocide?
Benjamin Netanyahu has in recent days called on politicians to choose “their words carefully” so as not to give ammunition ahead of the hearing in The Hague, Vaturi on Wednesday reaffirmed his calls to “wipe Gaza off the face of the earth,” and added: “Gaza must be burned.” “I stand behind my words... It is better to burn down buildings rather than have [Israeli] soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there,” he said in a radio interview before calling for the “elimination” of the estimated 100,000 Palestinians left in northern Gaza. “I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them,” added Vaturi, who belongs to Likud, the right-wing party led by Netanyahu.
If there was an intent to destroy Gaza and all it's inhabitants Israel would have done so already. I probably need to see more justification than some emotional outburst a few days after getting terror attacked and israeli citizens kidnapped.
Your arguments are weak. Yes there is a sad situation where a lot of Palestinians are dying but it's not a genocide.
When your argument is trying to explain the technical definition of genocide, you've lost the fucking argument, it's a genocide.
Technically you aren't brain dead but some might say you are brain dead. Is that the same thing?
