A former US surgeon general says he went to the ER for dehydration and ended up with a $5,000 bill. He called the healthcare system 'broken.'
A former US surgeon general says he went to the ER for dehydration and ended up with a $5,000 bill. He called the healthcare system 'broken.'
Former US Surgeon General Jerome Adams said he got a $5,000 bill for a recent ER visit, highlighting big problems with the US healthcare system.
The "healthcare" system isn't broken, it works perfectly.
You're just mistaken about what its purpose is.It's one of the most beautiful examples of capitalism working as intended: When you're hurting or dying, your demand for healthcare is unlimited, and you're in no position to compare prices or services, so cost is determined by the maximum amount that can be squeezed out of you during your remaining lifetime.
To spell out the point here - healthcare isn't the point of the healthcare industry under capitalism - profit is. Any healthcare delivered is going to be the bare minimum required to separate you from your money.
I've worked in hospital systems since I graduated from college. There has been one meeting (out of all the meetings!) that I have absolutely never forgotten due to something that was brought up.
They thought it was super cool to talk about how much cash our new surgical center was bringing in. I know it was small in the scheme of things, but in my head a hospital should be super happy when they don't have to perform surgery on a person. They shouldn't be happy to perform surgery so that they can make money.
Most healthcare systems in the US are non-profits. To run a non-profit, you still need revenue to operate no matter where you are or what you do. They have to pay their own bills just like anyone else.
Bring on the downvotes. Then go ahead and take all of your local hospital’s funding and see what happens.
Edit: maybe people misunderstood my point? People are replying and saying that profit shouldn’t be part of healthcare. Yes, but that doesn’t solve the problem of funding. Every hospital gets money. Pick your favorite country, the hospital still gets money.
One of the most perfect parts of how powerful lobbies constructed it is that, unaffordable as it is, there IS no free market for care, you are forced into networks and PPOs, etc. so if someone DID offer a better price outside of your consumer funnel(sorry, insurance plan), your insurer would just deny the claim at the providers standard 20x cost price for uninsured procedures. Also, 100% price obfuscation so comparison shopping is impossible. It is end-game capitalism.
I want to downvote you simply because i hate this truth. I hate it, so, so much.
That's not how capitalism is meant to work at all.
Its obviously and uncompetitive market and something needs to change.
History shows us that capitalism inevitably tends towards monopolies
Yeah, no shit. I have a full time job, supposedly great health insurance, but I still can't actually afford to go to the doctor (never mind an ER). You're God damn right the healthcare system is broken!
Here's the fun part.
It's been like this for at least 20+ years.
I remember when my dad lost his job around 2002. I was a little kid and my mom told me to be careful when I'm playing outside, because if I broke my arm we could lose our house. That's something I don't think should ever be a reality, or something that parents or children should worry about in a functioning country.
Yes, but longer. It's absurd. Not sure exactly when premiums really got out of control, though. There's probably a good chart out there.
Democrats tried to fix this almost... 15 years ago ("thanks Obama"). Critical failure: no Medicare option for all. Most civilized democracies implemented right to free care 30+ years ago, should've been easy to follow. (Then higher education as well.) For-profit health insurance companies and their armies of lobbyists are evil and should be burned to the ground.
Am aware, this is why I avoid seeking medical care.
all insurance is a scam but any insurance that doesn't cover you for the only thing it's selling is also fraud.
Insurance companies get away with fraud all the time.
Our (Australian) right wing government stopped increasing the amount they pay doctors when people visit, and the new left wing government isn't doing anything either.
So now I have to "co-pay" $30 whenever I visit, when it used to be free. I found that so outrageous that next time, I'm travelling half an hour to go to a clinic that still "bulk bills" (read: doesn't charge the patient).
If I was an American I think I'd just die of rage. I wonder how much that'd cost me.
Edit: Oops, turns out our new left wing government just recently INCREASED the GP payment rate, so hopefully we'll see more bulk billing places return.
I hope the number of bulk billing places starts to increase again. I get scared thinking about how we're becoming more and more like the US.
Fucking tired of people who suddenly see a problem when a) it happens to them or b) when they're no longer relying on the problem for their income.
It's the republican way. They live in delusion land and when reality hits them in the face they get all pissy about it.
If it were exclusively the "Republican way" then this issue could have been resolved at several inflection points throughout US history.
It's not a problem exclusive to any political party. It's a problem because people like money. That's the end of it. Politicians invest in corporations. Lobbyists provide kickbacks to politicians. Politicians bias their legislation to ensure maximum personal profit.
To isolate this issue to any particular political party or orientation is to perpetuate it.
Blame all of them. And vote accordingly.
"If I'm in this situation with my knowledge and with my financial resources and with my bully pulpit, then the average Joe doesn't stand a chance. The system is just broken," Adams said.
I mean.. that's kind of why we never stop ranting and raving... To force them to find new sources of compassion and to find empathy for the other which they weren't taught by their family of origin. I'm tired of dealing with half the country being raised like thoughtless sociopathic fucking savages and eating the poor and each other.
To be fair to him, it seems to be a common thread with many in the medical profession, probably because they dedicate themselves to a system that is fundamentally broken. Even the likes of Doctor Mike (Medical YouTuber, whose content I really enjoy) have painted things like universal healthcare in a way that highlights the problems without painting the full picture of why (systemic underfunding to push privatisation).
I don't want to excuse it, but it's a very common problem that few want to address in the field.
I think doctors know as much if not more than anyone how broken the system is and how it constantly fails people, disagreements more about what to do about it and fears about change.
And there's certainly some physicians organizing in support of single payer.
Physicians for a National Health Program
A lot of doctors are concerned about how much say or influence they would have in such a health system, but hey not like they have much as it is as everything has become giant conglomerates run by MBAs and private equity, so not much to lose. At least government is theoretically beholden to the people.
"Rich person doesn't understand how to save money!"
Haha what a joker. Everyone knows you don't go to the ER for lightheadedness. You gotta self medicate, use WebMD, and ride that wave until you can get seen by your grandmama, your buddy who's a volunteer 1st responder, your friend's wife who's a nurse, or, if push comes to shove, the N.P. at the CVS Minute Clinic.
You never go full E.R. Gotta clip those coupons.
(Tongue in cheek.)
Sir if your tongue is your cheek, please see the surgeon in the article to remove.
You made me chuckle. Thanks!
A couple years ago, I ended up in an ambulance due to what turned out to be a small urethra stone. At the hospital, I had an x-ray. When that didn't find the problem, they gave me a CT scan. Once they found the stone, they called in a urologist. I got a consultation, prescription, passed the stone later that day (it was tiny), and recovered very quickly. My total bill was 243'000 Korean won - just about $200 USD. I only had the mandatory insurance that was paid for by my employer. Something to the tune of $50 a month that they are legally required to pay.
The US's system is completely fucked. Broken beyond repair. I wish them luck.
In the US your 243000 would still be the correct amount, but it would be USD.
US Medical Costs aren't racked up by the complexity of the work or care being given, its by how many people are scheduled to see you, diagnose or provide care. Each of them has a set rate per appointment, so the 200,000 figure for a kidney stone that was confirmed by multiple different specialists is not far off. A broken arm at the ER is basically the trauma nurses, an emergency medical specialist, a surgeon or two, anesthesiologist and their respective teams. The more departments you get passed around to the more your bill goes up.
Probably not for what OP described, but that's pretty close to the amount they billed my insurance when I broke two bones in my arm.
"Working as intended."
-Republicans
I think you mean
Working as intended
-the rich
Make Congress abide by the healthcare they make us abide by and this will be fixed overnight.
They live on a different planet. Our representatives are completely out of touch and there's no bringing them back. For the few good ones there are 99 career polticians out there carving out a niche for themselves and their families.
Who watches the watchmen? Well I've come up with a new branch named aptly:
The Duty Takers
99% agreed. I don't believe there are currently any "good ones". Everyone thinks "their guy" is going good and the rest suck and it's why we never have change in the guard.
Quite literally
I think public healthcare generally speaking doesn't work, but it sure would work a whole lot better if the people who decide things would have to use the exact same version of it. I think a hybrid (which seems to be more or less what every country is doing) is the worst of both worlds.
On February 14 I met my max out of pocket for the year. I had an upper and lower GI taken which is the bulk of the cost. My insurance is already refusing to cover some of my diabetes medication, because some people use it to lose weight (Mounjaro). I need it to keep my A1C levels under 10. I already weigh the ideal weight for my height. Because it's so expensive and insurance doesn't cover it, I will end up going without for the rest of the year. My old insurance covered it, but my company switched insurance in January. New insurance has never equaled better insurance. I'm so tired of insurance being tied to my job.
I just want to make sure one of the options you tried was a different medicine. Doctors can be pretty good about playing the insurance game sometimes
I love how it’s some bureaucrats job to decide what medication is best for his needs. Not OP, who had been having desired results prior to his employer switching insurance, and not his PCP, who is more closely tied to his outcomes than anyone else.
Have you tried any online Canadian pharmacies? That's what we had to do for a few of the scripts that were exorbitantly expensive here in the States.
This medication isn't available on a lot of those sites. I've looked, but I haven't checked Canada yet. I'll give it a go soon.
I paid 1200 USD a month for a family of 3 for my health insurance to have the privilege of paying more a hospital bill.
I had to go to the ER because I slit my pinky on some glass and waited in the ER for 5 hours. They had to rip then dried blood and paper towel that was stuck on my finger because it took so long.
After all that, I had to pay 3000usd of my own money which didn't cover my minimum. Why DA FUCK DO I EVEN NEED INSURANCE!?!?!?
The fucking nurse on staff that came to help me for a few minutes was not within my network. Ya fuck that hospital too.
The fucking nurse on staff that came to help me for a few minutes was not within my network.
Oh, that's unfortunately quite common in the States -- the hospital itself might be in your network, but their own ER docs, etc. are technically contract employees who are not. So then you get out-of-network bills.
Imagine trying to sort through all this when, for example, you're having trouble breathing and need immediate medical care.
It's f**ked up, bad, and has been for years.
And the other side is also fucked up. I have a family member who has been a doctor in the US and Canada.
In the US, each doctor had two full-time employees just working on that doctor's billing. In Canada, his clinic of four doctors had one person working part-time doing the billing to our government health insurance.
For small wounds like that I generally recommend an urgent care clinic over the ER. Way cheaper and they can handle that shit. Save the ER for proper trauma.
Sure. If the urgent care is open.
God forbid you slice your hand open outside of regular business hours.
I used to get some random unexplained swelling in one leg. My wife has a family history of blood clots. I don’t , but that doesn’t keep her from panicking, or from inciting my own panic. Only way to know for sure that it’s not a clot, as far as anyone told me, is imaging…sonograms specifically.
I don’t think any urgent care around me has sonograms. It’s ER, or get PCP to refer out and have an appointment in 3 weeks.
If you Google “Ultrasound Machine” and look at the shopping listings, you’ll find more than a few entire fucking machines that cost less than half of just one of those visits. And what did I have for that time? A few hours of waiting, interspersed with 5 minutes with an ultrasound tech, and 20 seconds with a doctor telling me (in the hallway) that nothing was wrong.
It’s illegal for them to send you a bill because a provider isn’t your network. One of the few good things passed under Trump. Lmk if you need any specific help or information in disputing that bill.
Edit: assuming this ER visit happened on or after 1/1/2022. Or potentially earlier depending on your state.
It has been years. I actually decided to move out of the USA. Paid the bill and decided to be more careful.
My wife had to go to the ER and we went to a hospital that was in network. The hospital is indeed in network but the fucking ER is a separate entity and was not. I guess we should have been better informed consumers. /s
ER was in-network. The nurse and doctor was also in-network. The second nurse, who connected me to the ECG, and the person who read the ECG was not in-network. No way of knowing at the time. Balance billing was permitted in that state at that time, which out-of-network provider used to the full extent.
I’m still salty about that.
That is seriously fucked up.
For me, I called my insurance on the phone while bleeding profusely and wanted to make sure I went to the right hospital. I still got hit with out of network bills.
Do you have Urgent Care near you? They could have done some stitches.
For whoever doesn't know. Unless you are going to die within the next 6 hours. Go to urgent care.
Not gonna say the system ain't broken but that's what the system wants you to do.
My insurance is $75 to go to Urgent Care. Maximum payout.
ER means $3000 minimum just to go in the door and goes up to infinity.
Urgent Care can handle stitches, and if you need to go to the ER they can make that determination.
It was Sunday and all Urgent care is not 24 hours in my area. I actually waited so long in the ER that one of the Urgent Cares opened, but at that point I was already inside and triaged. If I knew I would wait inside for another 2 hours, I would have left.
Yeah but in the UK they have to wait 2 weeks to see a specialist
We have waits for specialists too. To get my vasectomy, I had to wait six weeks from my referral to my first consult, then another month from the consult to the actual surgery.
And then I got a bill from the surgical center, a bill from the urologist, and a bill from the anesthesiologist, despite only going to one office for the whole thing.
If I tried to go see my primary care doctor right now in the US, I'd probably have to wait at least 3 months for an appointment.
OECD data shows that wait times don’t significantly vary based on how a system is funded. The USA is just plain bad at wait times. That being said, the UK’s system is not the best example.
Lol, we wish we could wait 2 weeks. My wife needed a tumor removed in her stomach and took 6 months.
I just scheduled and appointment for my PCP. His next available is in June. Fucking 4 months for primary care.
I’ll take wait times in the UK with no bill over this bullshit any day.
If he thinks five grand is a big hospital bill, he's not living in the real world.
5 grand for something that can be fixed by quite literally buying salt and distilled water (obviously give or take a month, but that doesn't matter). Idk where you live but that shit is cheap where I am.
It's not that 5 grand is a big bill. It's that they're charging 5 grand for salt water.
Don't go to the ER for dehydration. If it's really that bad, find an IV lounge that can just give you an IV bag with some vitamins and maybe some meds.
It's like $150-$200, which I know is still expensive, but you don't need insurance and it's a quick in-and-out.
When that dehydrated, injecting liquids is way more effective than drinking them.
I'm living in the real world, most I've ever had to pay was parking and I guess a few bucks for meds. I remember how $100 for meds a fe years ago made me cringe.
But I also live in a first world country, with first world problems.
Two years ago my dad had a cardiac arrest.
Resuscitation, ambulance ride, four stents, nearly a week in a coma in intensive care, another week recovering. No charge at all. Due to Covid and them not really want everyone putting their germy hospital hands on the ticket machines, even the parking was free.
All I paid was a few quid for a bottle of water and some biscuits from the hospital shop.
Now there are issues with the NHS, in that anything non-urgent can take a very long time and might not get resolved at all, and it being chronically understaffed to the point of negligence (which is intentional sabotage by our government) but for emergencies, it's amazing.
Profit based healthcare is immoral.
Nonsense. Greed Is Good.
Capitalists are constantly telling me that if the Mayo Clinic wasn't charging $5000 for saline drips, the service simply wouldn't exist and he'd have died. This is what happens all the time in Communist Countries.
Besides, $5000 is a small price to pay for your life. If anything, he should have been charged extra. The hospital could have extorted him for five figures, easily, if they'd just twisted the screws a little tighter.
Fuck this joker. He’s the IDIOT that said, as the SURGEON GENERAL, “Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” (Tweet was then deleted). He should lose his medical license and be imprisoned for the excessive number of deaths his lies caused.
When exactly did he say this? At the beginning of the pandemic when things were still uncertain?
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you if he said that at the beginning. To be clear, I know masks were an effective protection against the coronavirus. But at that time there was a lot of uncertainty, first, and second, he was half-right: there was a shortage of masks, and medical professionals needed them at a very critical time. I followed that advice. Then when the CDC said "oops, no actually DO wear masks!" I started wearing them.
So..... I'm not saying he was right. I'm just saying we should judge people in context. Don't pile him up with the true idiot anti-mask bundle.
They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching
That's technically true, but the correct answer is more nuanced then the average adult has the attention span to understand or the character limit of twitter.
Masks are better at stopping the wearer from spreading it to other people, but a lot of people were getting infected through spit going into their eyes. Did this post occur during the mask shortage were even surgeons couldn't get the masks they needed to do their work? The quote you gave said to stop buying masks, not to stop wearing them. Best practice was to use a reusable mask and face shield.
We've already had this discussion ad nauseum since 2020. It's 2024. Just stop with spreading information that can fuel the anti-mask bullshit.
I understand that wearing eye protection can reduce the risk of catching the virus. But to say "masks are not effective" being technically true is irresponsible.
Only $5000? Dude got lucky. Fuck American healthcare.
Broken by design
I have a little experience with the medical billing system for this fantastic country that I'm lucky and unlucky enough not to live in (yes, both lucky and unlucky; different reasons).
It's messed up. There are band-aids in place to keep costs down for charges billed to medicare and medicaid, but that just makes the whole thing worse because it adds a lot of extra complexity and everyone else likely gets fleeced to make up for the new overhead. The medicare 8 minute rule itself isn't that complex, but add modifiers for activities performed by different providers (in therapy, this could be a PT and a PTA providing the same service, for different lengths of time, on the same visit)? It goes NUTS.
Single payer healthcare with optional private coverage would solve nearly everything. The cost to the patient first and foremost, but also the cost to the government itself, due to greatly decreased complexity. And private clinics and private insurance don't have to disappear, they can still provide more high-end services, or shorter wait times, for those who can ACTUALLY AFFORD IT.
Dr. Jerome Adams, who was the nation's top doctor from 2017 to 2021, said he was slammed with an almost $5,000 bill after being treated for dehydration at a Mayo Clinic emergency department, where he got labs and a few IV bags.
Awesome. I'm going there at the end of March.
Oh shoot, you're the person who's been having trouble eating, aren't you. Man, I hope they're able to help you out. So sorry for your health issues.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
You're gonna get SLAMMED!!!! They're gonna bite your toes put your dick in a curling iron! You'll leave with a cured appetite and they'll FUCKING DUNK ON YOU with a $600 Billion bill! Don't forget to take advantage of their financial assistance; the whole medical system may be financially and morally ruined, but there are some ways to navigate semi-relatively unscathed.
Oh, buddy, best of luck!
Thanks!
You're planning on visiting the ER?
No, but it's the same hospital.
If you're curious why I'm going there, I wrote about it in Casual Conversation- https://lemmy.world/post/12194311
Long story short: I haven't been able to eat any solid food for over six months and no one knows why.
(Please no medical advice, I am begging you. The general you, not you specifically.)
He got more done than he said. He likely went in for syncope (since he's a doctor and that's one of the few things that might scare them) and they did an ECG and possibly something else (particularly if he requested it). That said, 5k is still ridiculous.
Oh look at that. The sky is blue. Oh, and water is... wet! It's wet everyone! Oh, no, not water, it's piss being thrown at us by our government's lack of representation, ethical apathy, and greed.
Only $5000? He got lucky.
Really, did you need to go to the ER to know that? Shit has been broken for a while now.
Lots of people think it's only the uninsured that get screwed, but it's common to get a surprise 5,000 bill a few weeks after you've paid your copay.
But here's the trick:
As of July 2022 the credit bureaus no longer report medical debt. So just don't pay the greedy fuckers.
Did he even get the full bill. Last time I went to an ER, I paid off something and then two years later got sent another bill. I called and said, this is a mistake, right? First lady said probably, everyone else said nope. This is your physician's bill. The other one was a hospital bill. I asked, why did I then get it for the first time after a visit from TWO years ago?? What was goin on in the mean time? "Oh we were transitioning companies, probably something to do with that?" I tried to fight it, I got a reduced price, but that was so insane to me
I got hit with Lyme AFTER I lost my job last year. I got the bill for my ER visit, it sucked, but I was expecting it. To add insult to injury they sent me another bill, which was physician bill. The system is so fuvking stupid, it will kick you when you’re down. Next time I’m just flying to Europe somewhere to get a treatment.
This isn’t news, it just underscores how out-of-touch some demographics are to what most of us deal with.
Yeah.. Because there's no place for downward pressure on health expenses. Hospitals are incentivized to raise prices as much as possible, because they know insurance companies will negotiate downwards. Insurance companies pass all costs back down to the pool while working as hard as possible to deny everything. Drug companies know they have a captive market, nobody else is making that medicine you need for survival so "Cha-Ching!". Employers are looking for the cheapest health plans possible which means the shittiest plans for their employees. And any company that sells medical equipment is looking at selling it for as much money as possible (or in a "package" that gets hospitals to overcharge on individually wrapped tylenol). Hospital Admins spend more time and money to make sure patients are charged $20 for a $0.10 pill than they trying to keep enough doctors and nurses on staff.
Medicare for all, that's the only way to start righting the ship here. Nationalizing the entire healthcare system would be the next step. It's beyond stupid that we run healthcare for profit.
So it’s actually more complicated than that (at least to your first point, the points about drug companies is accurate). First, I support M4A, especially plans like Bernie’s that improved reimbursement. One major issue is that the government (Medicaid in particular, Medicare also) pays below costs in some cases. So hospitals charge a shit ton to commercial insurance to make up for their loss on other patients.
In terms of employers saving money, most large employers have moved to self-insurance (70-80%, depending on how you define “large”).
I read some senator or congress-person suggested before about doing medical tourism instead. Like you go visit Spain or Norway to get your knee or spine fixed for cheap.
This is the most Patrick Starr™ solutions I've ever heard for medical care.
Mexico has a large medical tourism industry. Mostly for dental but other things too.
You can go on a ferry and get a nice vacation in a fairly tropical area, and get your needs met medically and go home for less than it would cost in the states with insurance.
As a Canadian, the idea of paying thousands, even in Canadian dollars, for a single healthcare visit, seems absolutely insane to me.
I can't imagine living under that kind of threat. I would be deathly scared of getting injured, by no fault of my own, and ending up in the poor house as a result. Forget having any.... More voluntary.... medical costs, like having a child. I couldn't imagine doing that knowing what it would cost me.
Honestly, if I was in that situation, I'd be scared of doctors too. Having to choose between having good health but being unable to afford the basics, or living with disorder or disease, would probably break me.
Welcome to America....
And it's not hard to extrapolate the problems you start to face when the average person is afraid to go to the doctor
I recently got one single stitch in my hand. $2k after insurance paid their portion and I think I have pretty good insurance. I should have done it myself.
WELL DUH!?
Maybe it was the Nestlé hospital?
I wonder if he just noticed because it's been capitalist hellscape for a long time now. Welcome to the trenches, fellow working class member. Your ability to have basic healthcare is based entirely around your ability to scrape enough money together between hospital visits. Failure to do so will have lifelong impacts, so I suggest you start eating cereal for dinner to save some cash for the next time you need basic human help.
Feature not a bug
Why, yes.
Dude went the the mofo Mayo Clinic for dehydration. Gets a $5000 bill.
Surprised Pikachu face.
Well, everyone knows you're not supposed to go to the Mayo Clinic for dehydration. That's just common sense.
Of course a saline drip is going to cost you $5k at the Mayo Clinic. DUH!
He should have gone to the other clinic that doesn't charge as much. And the name of that clinic is...
That amount isn't much more than our shitty local emergency rooms charge for walking in the door.
Yeah but the market sets the price. This is capitalism. If you want to change the price, don't go there. Pick a cheaper clinic. There are plenty of hospitals. It's up to the consumer to price shop, emergency or not. I'm sure the Mayo clinic is making razor thin margins.
---- heavy sarcasm
Never been to the US before I guess 🤷♂️ He got off pretty light at 5k.
You'll be surprised in two years when you find out you owe that.
Is that his out of pocket expense of what the hospital billed insurance?
Because my hospital billed insurance $15,000 and all I got was 1 bag of saline.
He must know some important people to get such a discount.
No way!
Can't the surgeon general just perform surgery on himself to save the money?
Tried to warn him.
Why didn't he just go to one of them spa and get a $150 iv drip
You mean those mobile IV vans? Those are only in major cities and when you're suffering dehydration from like a stomach virus you don't have time to schedule an appointment if you're dying.
Treatment for dehydration should absolutely be added to free essential care under Obamacare, at a minimum.
In my area it's not a van but a brand with a bunch of locations all over they do like freeze therapy and all sorts of iv drips. Definitely further away than the nearest hospital but we also shouldn't need to go to a hospital for things like this that can be handled at walk in clinics if insurance companies would start offering better pay to those types of business.
Or...you know, maybe drink a full Pedialyte
This is only news to people who read Business Insider
My GP claims to be trying to agitate her peers at conferences, focusing on the ones with chronic issues. She tells them, if they don't advocate for patients, no-one will.
Lawyers don't count, because by the time they enter the scene, the damage is done.
Welcome to the revolution friend.
Sounds like you're not in the U.S.