Weird… as a cis heterosexual white male, I don’t find myself hanging around people that I need to censor or correct at all. I’ve proactively cut all of those people out of my life within the past 8 years. My friends are the folks you don’t need to tell stuff like this to.
I will say, in the process of removing people that were awful, they tend to just laugh when they are “corrected,” as they find amusement in the antagonization. Once you separate yourself from them, it’s just 2-3 confused text messages and that’s the end of it.
I do (cuz family). Calling them out like this is one of my favorite pastimes since they think I'm 100% with them. Stopping them in their tracks can be really entertaining
Not saying cutting people out is wrong, you do you. But don't you think all of this alienation we are collectively doing is leading to the echo chambers that reinforce bad behaviors?
I do, but I don’t want to be around those people. I don’t think being around them (and trying to influence) changes anything for the better either.
I can only control my own behavior. I cannot force another to change, they have to want to. The only thing I can do is draw the lines I'm willing to live within and live by them. And if not associating with bad people, even if they are family, is what I need to live in a healthy way, so be it.
I hear you, but idk what to do. I can't engage with someone who says out loud things like "I want trump to become a dictator" and "democracy is overrated" and "your body my choice" and don't seem to care at all that mass deporting 10+million people WILL lead to mass murder. It's impossible to have a discussion in good faith with these people. They've just demonstrated that the last 8-9 years is a feature, not a bug, and let the mask off about who they really are. They've alienated themselves by leaving the realm of reality.
I'm not really sure. One of the most common complaints among the less extreme portions of the right is that the left is too intolerant and strict and not fun to be around. And being more welcoming of the person themselves, even while acknowledging to yourself that their beliefs are severely flawed (possibly due to factors such as propaganda, peer pressure, religious beliefs), might be a way to help capture that crowd and work to win them over.
At the same time, there needs to be a line drawn somewhere where the person is clearly being malicious and possibly dangerous and is a lost cause. Stuff like "your body my choice", using slurs, praising suicides of marginalized people, etc isn't worth tolerating. Also when it comes to group activities, allowing these sort of people and ideas makes minorities uncomfortable, so when they leave to someplace more comfortable now your group is just full of Nazis. I seen no problem with cutting these sort of people out.
They think this is a culture war. They believe they are at war with ideas they do not like.
They will not give ground until forced to do so. They will only do so begrudgingly, and insincerely, waiting for the day they can claw it back.
They see you as an enemy, and they give themselves rage chubbies at the thought of refusing to negotiate.
Absolutely, if you hear this nonsense, call it out, but be prepared for it to escalate.
Let's return to a time when saying that crap out loud was enough to end a career. Make them afraid to be bigoted in public again.
Ask them to explain the “joke” then once they finish say I didn’t find the joke funny.
They can't ever explain the joke, though.
That's half the fun. Watching them squirm and try to figure out how to explain the joke without saying the -ism out loud when they realize they're not in "safe" company.
This one's my go-to.
As long as 1 singular person finds the joke funny it still counts as a joke.
I have a lot of jokes where my friends don't find them funny. But there's always a punch line, some smart wordplay, terrible pun, even if they feel like it's too forced (smh).
Racists do know that openly saying that "minorities being abused is funny" sounds racist as fuck, so they try to avoid explaining their jokes.
This is legit why I have like two male friends left tbh. After 2016 I stopped giving a fuck. The problem... or maybe the cause in a way... is that I'm an oddly assertive introvert so it's very easy for me to end up in a situation where I'm doing nothing but going off on people and making drama.
Nah, there's nothing louder than silence.
Wipe all expression from your face, and stare at them. Maybe just an expression of incredulity if this is out of character for them. That's all it takes.
Bystanders will literally stop what they're doing and watch. Their brains will scream "I'm about to be excluded from the group", and they'll start babbling. They'll confess their sins and be harsher on themselves than anything you could say
If you don't like their next words, give them nothing. Literally don't respond, anything you give them is closure. Don't give them closure, move on with your life - they can't.
Don't give them judgement, give them nothing. If you judge them, they can turn themselves into a victim or you into an enemy... Without a response, the only enemy is themselves, because they will crave your approval.
It's like a teacher staring down a student who keeps talking until the whole class is looking at them, except they don't know what to do to make it stop. So they try anything and wrack their brain for a solution. It seriously freaks people out
Note: this is less likely to work against neurodivergent people, they'll just be confused. That's how I learned to do this - I got annoyed and straight up asked a therapist why they kept staring at me when I was done talking. They explained the concept of a pregnant pause, and so I started using it.
And acquaintances started telling me how they were abused to explain their behavior and strangers started confessing how they cheated on their partners out of nowhere.
I get a lot of long apology emails the day after someone wrongs me, I now make an effort to give closure to everyone I like early and often.
Humans are tortured by this
I'm mostly onboard here, but there's some nuance to consider.
Wipe all expression from your face, and stare at them. [...] Bystanders will literally stop what they’re doing and watch.
Fact. Monkey see, monkey do. If you physically pass as someone older and wiser, this works even better.
Their brains will scream “I’m about to be excluded from the group”, and they’ll start babbling. They’ll confess their sins and be harsher on themselves than anything you could say
Plausible, but I think this outcome is one of many possible. Pressing on an individual's psychological weak-spots can trigger a fight/flight/freeze/fawn reflex; your anecdotes are centered on the "fawn" response. I would caution the reader that, unless you know that person well, you really can't predict which of the four you will get in this situation. If doing this you MUST be prepared for that fight reflex to kick in; they may get mouthy and/or physical. Social justice is important, but do take your opponent's height, weight, build, and if they are armed into account, before proceeding.
Nah, that's the beauty of it. You're not the enemy. You're not attacking them. You're giving them absolute attention, but giving nothing back
It's pure judgement. And they don't know the verdict yet
Their fight response won't be aimed at you, but they'll certainly throw others under the bus. They might lash out at you, but they'll quickly wilt when you still give with nothing. It's just angry human noises, ignore them
Their flight response won't kick in, because it overrides human instincts. Walking away is a conscious decision in this case, and most humans aren't self aware enough to choose it
It's the third path. You take all the power in the interaction, you cut off the other roads, and you engineer a choice that is only fawn or slink away quietly in defeat
"I won't let you talk to them that way" is a bad one that doesn't belong on this list. It implies you're in control of them, which you're not. It's essentially a bluff, and if they call it, you need to be able to beat them up.
To add more good phrases to this list, the phrases need to imply that the person still has their own agency (because they do), and that it's just a dipshit way to use that agency. The other phrases are great.
-
Slight lean back
-
Expression of baffled disgust
-
Quietly: "The fuck?"
Cuts deep
"Bruh"
If you're especially non-confrontational, then even the first one, or 0 reaction, can do. Just don't do the polite chuckle. They'll think it landed.
I have to work really hard not to laugh myself, and instead let it be awkward.
yes. Relish the beautiful silence.
-
friend says fucked up shit, asks if you agree
"What? No. Shit no! I believe you get your ass kicked for saying shit like that."
Nah. Don't wait for them to ask. Tell them they are being an asshat. It's good for them
Don't believe that was in this fine piece of cinema. Ass Clown on the other hand...
Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays
You don't need to be cisgender, heterosexual, male or white to call people out on their bigoted beliefs.
Edit: if you are in those categories you're more likely to be taken more seriously by other cishet white men. I think I understand the point of the original post now.
No, but bigoted, cisgendered, heterosexual white men are probably more likely to listen to other cisgendered heterosexual white men due to their bigotry.
Someone disagreeing within Chad Junior's very narrow social circle will mean more to him than someone outside of the circle, especially if that person is also unlike Chad Junior in several ways. Unfortunate as it is.
In my experience that is almost never the case. They'll just call you a liberal soyboy or something and never think on it further.
Definitely. It's just an amplifier. Imagine a protestor saying "too many cops are violent and need to cool it", as opposed to a cop saying "too many cops are violent and need to cool it"
Exactly. Also some of us have learned to fear pushing back against cishet men who are being aggressive. As a trans lesbian I’m not going to improve the situation with confrontation, I’ll just get shouted at, called a snowflake, or otherwise dismissed. But when say, my girlfriend’s husband, a very large extremely masculine cishet guy challenges it, it may not always go well, but it’s perceived as peer disapproval as opposed to “triggering the enemy”.
Oh, I got it. Thanks
It's like you missed the point entirely
ITT: a lot of people reading this to be specifically and only for cis white men, but they’re talking about the power any in-group member has to shut down bigoted shit and that’s what we should be focusing on. In a space where the biggest in-group is black women this post would be about them, but the most common “in-group” (disproportionately so) is white cis men so that’s who they mention. If this is making you feel attacked or targeted then please set aside that part of it and don’t discard the actual message, because this is honestly something everyone should think about.
Anytime you’re accepted somewhere, whether in public or among strangers, you have a lot of social power when it comes to setting the tone of conversation - one loud idiot can make a space feel extremely hostile to an outsider, and if everybody gives a polite laugh instead of speaking up that idiot learns saying things like that is okay and the “outsider” learns they’re not truly welcome. Literally one person who speaks up instead of letting it fly can solve this - the message is to be that person, not to attack anyone in particular.
If this is making you feel attacked or targeted
As a "cis het white man", I wouldn't dream to feel attacked by this and find it mind-boggling how anyone could be so fucking braindead and/or tone-deaf that they would feel attacked. But here we are, in a world where there is a "soon to be Nazi-America" where there was once the united states of America.
Look at you, with the hemispheres of your brain actually somewhat separate from one another.
It's really refreshing to have someone actually get the meaning behind this meme instead of say 'not all men' or the equivalent.
I want to know why you, and so many others apparently, cannot grasp the idea of pointing out why one aspect of something is problematic without, by default, being an implication that the entire thing is wrong or that they hate all of it etc etc.
I'm not even offended by it, but I get why someone would be, but that doesn't take away from the point of the post either. It's really fucking weird and feels intellectually dishonest.
These comments, yeesh. I am a cis white dude, and I don't see how this post is offensive. As I've gotten older and more self-confident, I absolutely call people out for their garbage opinions/statements. Being a cis/straight/white dude it happens all the time that somebody says something racist/sexist/homophobic in front of me assuming I'll be sympathetic. I've used all these "scripts" and encourage you all to use them also.
Do you hear yourself right now?
'Cause you're spot on!
Yeah I’m not cis, het, or a dude, but I do this stuff when people assume I’ll join in racism. I’ll challenge that shit and attempt to help lead them to the truth
If I know I'll have to talk to them again soon I'll just awkwardly look away, hoping they figure it out themselves but other than that I try to be the exact same.
This is the way
"Bro, not cool." With a stern look always sets the homies straight.
But what if want to set them gay?
Honestly I haven’t had to say something in almost a decade
You're hanging out with the right people
It's all about where you live and what you look like.
I'm a huge white dude in a red state, I've been getting hit on by nazis since before I was a teenager because I look like their "ideal".
Like, when they picture their "master race" it's what I look like, so they always fucking assume I'll agree with any side comment they make.
If you're not in a super blue area, you're not hearing stuff because something identifies you as "them" and not "us". But even in blue areas I'll hear shit.
I’m a white American immigrant in Germany. The shit people say to me about immigrants, which they then walk back with “but not you, you’re one of the good ones,” is infuriating.
"What the fuck" with a disgusted look is my go to.
My personal go-to is, “They’re a human being, just like you.”
Sadly, they often disagree. The whole basis of bigotry is the idea that I'm human and you're less than.
"... aren't."
In drag's experience, calling someone a human is a tremendously vicious insult if you have cool enough friends.
The "do you hear yourself right now?" is a good one, gonna use it well
I'm going to use all of these except the "I won't let you" because that could trigger the right wing persecution complex, and/or sound like fighting words.
I want them to think normal people (not me tbh) are put off by their weird shit.
it also reminds me of the whiteknighting "alpha" cliche; "i will protect u, my princess". maybe thats just me.
So Mexican dudes can't say these things, eh? Only white dudes, and only if they're straight?
You need to add 'ese' to the end of it.
I had a Mexican friend back in college and we used to joke that if you put El in front of something, it became Spanish.
So he'd say something like, "Hey, do you want to get el pizza tonight?"
And I'd say, "Sorry, I don't speak Spanish."
(Although normally we'd do it as an inside joke when someone couldn't understand him because of his accent.)
My 'hey, you're being a fuck stick' detector doesn't discriminate, despite what my stolen meme says
And only to men, because of course there aren't any women who hate on trans people!
Middle-aged white men have a lot of privilege. It's time we used it for good.
Is this white-saviour and/or patriarchial? Yup. Does it work? Also yup.
I don't know if we all realize this, but some shitlord being told "What the fuck is wrong you?!" cuts deeper when it comes from someone who looks like their dad, granddad, or their boss.
I'm a 47-year old white guy in a leadership position in a large company. I've done exactly this to both young-millenial edgelord types who think I'm in on the joke, and boomer or elder-Xers who are yelling at clouds. I will tell you that, not only does it smack down the dipshit who thought that "lol rape" or "brown people bad" was funny, it also sets the tone for everyone else in the room, and it gets word around that bigotry isn't acceptable.
Anyone can say this, but it hits harder when it's someone privileged. Women, LGBTQ folk and other vulnerable groups don't have this privilege, and get shut down, and if we don't want that to be the case, we need to speak up for them.
It's only bigotry if it's cishetwhitemen doing it, otherwise it's just sparkling discrimination.
I'm not in the trenches of this particular culture war, so I don't know shit, but I really do wonder why not phrase it as "people who want to be better allies" instead of targeting a single racial group and sexual orientation. Would feel more inclusive.
Didn't know there were so many All Lives Matter people on here, Jesus Christ.
Yes. Didn’t you know that straight men are the root of all problems in the world?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Yep, that's my go to as well.
Pfff. Everytime my father in law goes on a racist diatribe I tell him, "Mustafa is what now?". He is my Egyptian brother in law and the kindest and hospitable person I know.
I also very dislike my father in law, used to be a somewhat good guy, then he got old and racist.
Chronic lead poisoning at an early age is a hell of a drug.
I told a coworker they were "full of shit" then repeated that when they said "what?"
I play a lot of rocket league and the kids love homophobic slurs, I just call them pathetic.
My go-to is "Why do you think that is an okay thing to say?"
Oh hey it's that mean voice in my head
Even a simple "bruh" can help.
That why calling out people for being weird worked
There's one thing I really don't understand. And this question has no agenda except that I would like to. Also if I use the word "he" inappropriately, please for the sake of the question let that slide...
Say a woman transitions to a man. He's a man now, right? So why is it necessary that he be called trans and someone who was born a man be called cis? I mean if the goal is equality, and it should be, why should we know or care which is the case? And the same question goes for cis/trans women.
most of the times the difference between me and a cis man is not important, so i simply say i'm a man. Sometimes the difference is important, and then i clarify i'm a trans man
90% of the time and most people i meet will have no idea i'm transgender, the other 10 are doctors, people i want to have sex with, and those i've talked with about trans experiences
This is the correct way to do it
Using the cis/trans labels are good when the experiences are different in some important way or it's worth pointing out for some reason. Often it's just better to refer to both cis and trans men as just "men" and cis and trans women as just "women". It depends on the context. These online forums tend to be rather political or tied to identity in a way that a lot of more real life conversations won't be. The cis and trans labels can probably be left off more often in real life than you see them used here.
It's just useful terminology. It comes up when it comes up.
I don't spend much time calling my girl friends trans-her, if that's what you're asking.
good question! You used the correct pronoun. Even more correct: that man was Assigned Female At Birth. He was always a man. You’re right, the point is exactly that it shouldn’t matter, just like bi/homo/hetero, or nonbinary/female/male. But as long as rightists unfortunately make it matter, we need to talk about it.
Well I would assume trans-men are smarted and don't really need another guy to tell them. But then trans people like Caitlyn Jenner exist and she is dumb as shit. She has got to be the single most hated trans person ever.
Pin this somewhere.
Just yesterday at work I heard some coworker telling some nightmarish stuff (for the other person of his story) and laughing as if it was fun. Problem is, all other dudes were laughing with him.
Telling a dude to shut the fuck up works in any context. I yell it at strangers all the time
I usually ask what the hell it even matters to them and I usually get the Republican talking points. They're not going to change their minds because you shame them. Haters gonna hate. It's a shame but humans have a very long history of hating those that are not like them. Keep trying though, you never know....
There's real value in just letting them know you won't tolerate that bullshit in your presence. It means you'll hear less of it, for one, and it may actually affect their thinking depending on how they feel about you, and whether they have never received any push back previously.
As soon as you van stop using weird vocabulary as "cis man", i would start thinking about saying any of that.
Yes, there is a lotmof right wing bullshit going on but this entire Snowflake "Im special so we need to change language" is in large part what has pushed so many people to trump yo begin with.
To out it simple: you're part of the problem. Fix yourself too
What a weird thing to say.
Do you have the same problem with all adjectives that describe a majority? Heterosexual, right-handed, etc.?
Do you hear yourself right now?
Ah, I didn't appeal to the right wing voter base, what a shame.
I see we're in the "Trump was elected because of political correctness" phase. I remember this from 2015.
start with coherent messaging, which means you need to define terms as you use them
As someone "on the right" this is actually good advice for the future. The left's obsession with victimhood and the orwellian nomenclature for "identity" is tiresome to the average person.
"Cishet", for example, is basically a pejorative for "normal person".
word to the wise, don't do this if you don't have the physicality to back it up
That sounds like a threat?
I'm Ron Burgundy?
Yes. We cis men know nothing of criticizing our friends, and need instruction in this.
As a gay guy who's definitely been in the room for gay jokes because they didn't know I was gay: yes, you do. If you are only willing to call out bad behavior when you may get caught associating with it, then you aren't actually an ally.
Shuddap you privileged rapist, I'm telling the bears!
Fuck being a better ally. This is some dystopian mindfuck right here.
I don't mind most marine mammals. But sea lions? I could do without sea lions.
I would like to extend some but not all of these responses to situations like but not limited to:
- X Should be the first ones to be shot.
- They're gonna make everything better.
- These people always think that Y.
- ...
Why do people like this talk down to straight men, while asking for the allegiance? As an older person you young people aren't very nice or accepting to each other.
You see all sorts of posts calling straight guys males, and telling them how awful and dangerous they are, but if you say "female" you're Hitler. No wonder the young guys in the u.s feel hated
I came here to say this. So many use, "cis" as though it's a slur then demand support from the people they are throwing the slur at. I've been an ally my entire life but I've been labeled a transphobe twice over the last several months because I expressed a belief that wasn't a full throated endorsement of the extremist dogma.
EDIT: The downvotes prove my point. Anything other than absolute unquestioning adherance to the totality of the dogmatic belief system is unacceptable. Keep burning those bridges.
Acknowledging people are assholes and making them accountable isnt talking down.
Young guys feel hated because for a first time, they are growing up in a society that is no longer tolerateing toxic masculinity and unfortunately many have not grow up with good male role models, so they tend to latch onto peices of shit that teach them to blame all their problems on others and not self relfecting.
By generalising that X people are aholes you are talking down. What is your definition of toxic masculinity ? What would be a good male role model we have around ? iyo
"Hey white guys, fix this so we can improve society. Also, I'm choosing the bear, fuck white men."
This sort of thing bothers me. It seems people only want white men for what they can potentially provide, then I'm sure we'll all go back to hating again. Thanks for giving me another new label too I guess.
This should be gender agnostic advice, not specifically for white men.
I think the reason the advice is so pointed to one group is, there’s many people who disrespect the opinion of every minority, and think they’re all in a sympathetic league against them. Being belittled by another white man baffles them and makes them worry about being disincluded.
The people you’re protecting also didn’t necessarily answer that dumb bear question.
That's true, and I wouldn't say the phrase I quoted is specific to this post, but damn does it feel kinda close.
You’re experiencing the othering that many groups have for millennia and often times at the hands of us “cis white men”, instead of being mad about have empathy for your fellow humans who have had to go through this and grow.
Honest question wtf is a "het" now?
I'm pretty pronoun positive but seriously this shit is getting ridiculous.
cis = cisgender, aka person identifies with the same gender they are born with
het = heterosexual
It's not really new tho
New to me! Lol
It's got a space, normally it's written "cishet" meaning cisgender, heterosexual
No it's нет.
Lul, yes, I was supervised how much to think about using "disguising" causes any haters that automatically think you are on their side.
But this post gives me an idea of being a bit more prohibitive, eg 'don't ever talk to/about them like that'.
Why specificly cis men? Seems like scapegoating a minority to me?
Or is it speaking truth to power considering who's in charge of fucking everything?
It is technically a minority, as less than 50% of people are cis white men. But it's not a small minority.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Bcs we have power traditions (dead people) and hate groups gave us.
Why not use it as we see fit?
please explain to the rest of us how heterosexual men who have identified as male their entire life are a minority lmao
Well men are a minority by definition. As in their are more women. Thats the definition of minority.
scapegoating the ones in charge? Minority?
Because cis men are the only bigoted people in the world…..fuck off.
Simmer down, bronco.
