This is one of the supposed benefits of the free market. If left alone, under normal conditions, what's supposed to happen is that badly ran, uncompetitive firms end up showing themselves the door, making room for new market competitors who may not be so badly managed. Don't fucking save them, especially don't advocate for saving them if you claim to love free markets.
The problem with free markets is they are incredibly unstable and create booms and busts and people don't like this so we get the worst of all worlds which is unfettered capitalism and no competition or failure weeding out poorly managed companies. Maybe free markets are just a shitty ideal?
Maybe free markets are just a shitty ideal?
Yes. The answer to that question is yes. Free market capitalism encourages cutthroat competition in which the only factor in any decision-making process is maximizing profits. Safety isn't a factor. Employee well-being isn't a factor. National security isn't a factor. The economy at large isn't a factor. Long term investments aren't even a factor. Line go up this quarter equals good quarter. Regulations ensure mandatory minimums for societal prosperity.
free markets are a shitty idea, but ive never seen one in real life before.
I think America would actually benefit from switching to a free market economy, instead of our current bullshit where our politicans are too spineless to tell companies like Boeing "sucks to suck" when they ask for yet another handout instead of doing any real work
Agreed, but the big players have their hands tied up in Congress and the military so much that it's not gonna happen.
Then they should be nationalized, because they've already got the benefits, but none of the downsides, while the public get none of the benefits, and all of the downsides... At this point "too big to fail" are essentially critical government infrastructure setup by wealthy criminals to steal directly from tax payers.
Historically I don't think that's what the term "free market" was referring to, although some people do use it that way now. As always, we need to remember that there are no normal conditions, and free markets aren't free. If you don't have anti-monopoly legislation, if you don't have anti-corruption legislation, then large corporations will win.
we dont have a free market. We have what i can only describe as Inverse Socialism
its socialism for the wealthy and the corporations, and "free market" for everyone else
this is part of the reason why theft of property from the rich, or violence against them, is not morally wrong.
They get tax breaks that we all pay for, and they influence policies that help themselves while killing us.
You cant steal what you already paid for, and its not murder when its self defense
Look I'm fine if the govt wants to say a particular corporation is too big to fail. But trying to let that company remain private is not how too big to fail works. If you want a bailout, the govt owns your company, and the govt is obliged to maintain ownership for as long as it's deemed too big to fail...e.g. critical to national interests.
Personally I think all publicly traded companies should be partly owned by the people... Like sure you can have an IPO, and still make a zillion dollars... But society automatically owns a large enough share that you have to check with us before doing anything drastic
To big to fail should mean splitting up the company. At the very least when bailed out. Intresstingly the US actually made a profit bailing out banks in the 2008 crisis.
If I remember it correctly, that "profit" was nominal, i.e. without including the devaluation of that money due to Inflation, much less doing the proper investment accounting (as the Finance types do) were profit is a yield above a risk free investment (which, curiously, is normally Treasuries) and if it's below that it's not a good investment and beyond this the risk of losing your money also determines if the yield is worth.
Pretty much by definition the yield wasn't worth it in helping the banks at the interest rate the Government got, as why nobody else was willing to lend them the money at that interest rate.
I'm so sick of companies pissing away all of their profit and money to make rich people richer then when the smallest problem hits it is our problem. We pay. Fuck them.
Looking at this (below) with some super sloppy math they have made in the last ten years 25 billion in profits and 5 billion in losses totally 20 billion in profits (give or take as my interest in totalling this accurately is zero). The fact that they used their money irresponsibly and didn't say for a raining day, or it's raining planes day, is not the tax payers that need to save them. I'm in my mid 30s, you know how many times I've seen extremely profitable and successful "too big to fail" businesses bailed out. Fuck the fucking fuckers and anyone who trys and correct my math.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/BA/boeing/gross-profit
Just-restrained-enough fact-based rage is damn sexy
Oh yeah, I'd bang Herding Llamas. And I'm a straight guy!
Between 1998 and 2018, the plane manufacturer also manufactured a whopping $61.0 billion in stock buybacks, amounting to 81.8 percent of its profits. Add in dividends and Boeing's shareholders received 121 percent of its profits.
Stock buybacks should be illegal or at least heavily regulated. They're stealing money from their employees, putting their company in peril by not having cash on hand, and stunting innovation. Imagine if major companies had to put profit back into their company? Instead it's a game to see how much you can exploit the working class, how little you can innovate and still get by (it's easy when you have no competition), and gamble (after lobbying with minimal money) that your political plants will force the taxpayers you're exploiting to bail you out. It's pretty disgusting.
https://greenalphaadvisors.com/boeings-struggles-highlight-the-perils-of-stock-buybacks/
https://www.tipranks.com/stocks/ba/buybacks#google_vignette --> they're still doing it as of March of this year.
Can't correct that which is correct. Shine on, fam!
If it is of national importance, then let’s nationalize it
That would make a lot of sense ...until we're reminded that USA is a kleptocracy, masquerading under a thick coating of we the people, freedom!™, liberty and justice for
alla select group of people. Then it becomes clear the obvious and only solution, is for the government to pump a couple billions into Boeing.
Maybe Boeing should have thought of that before making poor decisions. It should learn a little something called personal responsibility and if it goes broke, well, that'll be a shame. Anyway!
If Boeing had just put a few dollars a week into a savings account when it was 18, it could have retired by now.
Boeing stopped pulling on its bootstraps and wants government welfare.
Can't wait to see another multi-billion dollar corporation get bailed out while I still don't have health insurance, and I'm still paying off credit card debt from during the Pandemic when the government gave people a measly $2400 over two years but handed out PPP loans and forgiveness to anyone that asked.
Fuck this country makes me ashamed to be a veteran.
If you have not filed for VA compensation, you need to. If you want some help with the process let me know, I don’t feel like typing out a book.
Capitalists: Under capitalism inefficient companies fail, and this is good.
Also capitalists: Save Boeing!!!11oneone
Oww, poor litlle boeing, not having enough money :C
Maybe they would still have some, if they didn't pay hitmen, they probably don't come cheap.
Let 'em die. No, fine them even more, and lock up the management.deprivatize the aerospace industry. imagine the boon to the American economy if these failing, debt-ridden, dysfunctional aerospace manufacturers and airlines were replaced by a massive jobs program with the goal of optimizing air travel safety, affordability, and access. we're a big country. we could massively benefit from an aeronautical empire that gives any person safe, enjoyable 30 dollar flights, coast to coast.
(edit, oops, forgot a prefix. wow)
If any politician would run this on a platform I'd make a bingo game of the canned responses you'd see all over the "free thinker" side of social media.
Better yet, reduce reliance on domestic air travel by building a modern high-speed rail network
In my opinion, HSR is a supplement, not a replacement. Flying is still fast and in some cases easier to get to than rail.
Government: It's too big to fail!
Me: The last time you said that the Banks you bailed out made record profits.
Boeing now officially top buy, inverse Cramer is a valid Strat
The GF wanted to do some Inverse Cramer this morning...and brother, I am just not as flexible as I used to be...
Or we talking about something else?
Gotta remember to warm up first or you could sprain your kazoo getting it setup - don’t ask how I know
Broken clocks...
Cramer loves broken clocks - he’s bought some this morning or if he hasn’t he’s wishing he had, just rolled up his sleeves and got to work on it - they’ve been on the line and off the line, two at a time, three at a time, and now all the guys on the phones on the floor are saying they missed it. Broken clocks are going one way folks, and that’s up
^after hours: BRKCLK down 25%^
Fuck Jim Cramer by the way.
here's some bootstraps mate, good luck!
also get fucked. what needs to be saved is the people from your utter disregard for human life.
you should use the last bit of your money to fly your CEO and entire management on one of your shitty planes and watch them fly through whatever fucking hole inevitably opens up.
You mean like a dimensional portal?
no, like a hole in the side of a plane.
Boeing, and anyone like them, NEEDS to fail.
Hrmm... I miss the part where that's my problem.
Maybe boeing needs to die so it can be replaced with something that does a better job.
True. Airbus has had problems in the past and they fixed them without avoiding them.
Hey Boeing, welcome to capitalism!
Have to laugh while dying a little inside when 'free market' people cry about banks, insurance companies, real estate, and other mega corps 'needing' bailouts.
Isn't that the essence of the free market? If companies suck shit, they die. The American people need a fucking bailout right now before another international corporation.
Exactly. Capitalists hate capitalism, because they have to compete or cheat or lose. They'd much prefer an un-free market, where they win even if they lose.
I guess it's time for them to break up the company and sell to others who can pick up the reins and rebuild. They made this bed. The shareholders have made their money for years and years at a cost of human lives as seen time and time again. The shareholders could always pay back the formerly ever increasing dividends they have reaped over the past 10 years if they want to bail out the company they own.
No more taxpayer bailouts for the ownership class.
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses.
Fuck Boeing and Jim Cramer, especially.
Can't believe that hack still has a show.
As a big fan of capitalism - go die Boeing. It's not the taxpayers job to bail you out because of stupid decision you made.
I love this comments section.
Structured bankruptcy is not the cataclysmic event CEOs and major shareholders want you to believe.
With everything I know about Jim Cramer, that means Boeing is doing great and I should probably invest in it now
"We moved all our production to non union factories across the country and put out shittier products, now we can't pay bills anymore!!"
Nationalise it if it’s too big to fail but can no longer operate as a public company.
Communism! Muh free market!
Alright, then the market is free to let Boeing fail
Did they try not cutting costs to the point planes fall out of the sky?
Mmm, then they wouldn't have had the money to buy back their shares to boost the stock price. So no, your ideas would not pass muster at a board meeting.
Did they try pulling themselves up by their bootstraps?
Keep in mind the "company" might run out of money.
This does not mean the CEO's and higher ups don't get their 100 million$$ paycheck.
If those paychecks were proportional the company would have money and record profits again.
That + bailout means CEO and share members get major pay
Golden parachutes should be illegal.
Oh no….. anyway…….
I'm not an astronaut stuck in space. I'm not too worried about it.
There was an article recently that was clearly just PR about how they're not concerned being stuck up there because there's so much to do and the views are amazing and so on.
Sure.
The might read this, so I am hoping they do make it safely back here. But yeah, wtf was that all about? They're fine! They are busy and have food for 3 months and such.
Then claw it back from the fraudulent CEO and their board of flunkees.
I believe several stocks are a complete grift and that CNBC, at the behest of whichever Hedge Fund/Market Maker greases them, is part of the disinformation dissemination scamming investors/swaying sentiment.
"WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE POOR CORPORATIONS????"
Fuck corporations! Think of the poor shareholders! Shareholders need their money back so that they can put more money into stable companies and force them to increase profits until they too are too big to fail.
They need a bailout!
Please!
Locally you can usually find places that help low-income people learn to budget their money.
More like avocado hitmen.
Cramer is a crackpot moron anyway, so who the fuck cares about his shitty opinions.
Capitalism as it is supposedly "intended" say whuuuut? O.O /s
Solidarity to all the workers at Boeing!
The only reason i would keep them alive is to not cost all the shopfloor their jobs. Can all the executives though
Unfortunately, as someone screwed over by the Recession, I can assure you that that's not how it works. The executives get bonuses that they can use to buy up investments for cheap and everyone else gets pink slips.
if your business requires government funding in order to function, your business should be a government agency instead of a business
You know, I caught a few minutes of his show. my grandparents were into it, I guess. Not that they ever made money off his tips, or anything. The reality is his show was a coke fueled investment-related infomercial. Like the shamwow guy, but shorter and bald-er
(in the 90's he gave an interview about how as a fund manager or whatever, he'd pay the press to run hit pieces, even. now he is the hit piece.)
What's stopping the government from buying boeing for pennies once it's bankrupt?
Mostly this:
Our national motto really should be "profit over people."
Jim upset because he's probably got a looooot of stock in them. Get bent loser, hope you net losses.
In the finance world it's called share buybacks.
For once in my life if this happens, I'll have a slightly less cynical view of the world.
I love the 'quotation' marks
Capitalism in on itself isn't bad, it can be the most efficient system for everyone to grow.
However
You need to have a solid set or rules in place that makes it work well for everyone. No monopolies, for (a simple) example, bit also if a small company does, there is bankruptcy, the the same needs to apply for a mega corporation. If a corporation is too big to fail, and require bail out then at least sack and replace the entire C suite, and upper management, no golden parachutes, no bonuses. Hell, if the company is so important that govt need to step in with billions, hold C suit personally responsible. If I fucked up and my company goed bankrupt, I can lose my house, why should a CEO get a bonus for doing the same thing but 100.000 times bigger and worse?
