What are your thoughts on paternity leave?
What are your thoughts on paternity leave?
I'm about to start my 12 week paternity leave next week thanks to a state program and almost everyone that I've told has had their jaws on the floor that I would even want to do that.
Today I witnessed a group of coworkers almost bragging how little time they took after their kids were born. I've heard stuff like "Most men are hard working and want to support their families so they don't take leave".
To me it was a no brainer, I'm getting ~85% of my normal pay and I get to take care of my wife, our son and our newborn for 3 whole months. and for someone who hasn't taken a day breathe in the past 3 years I think I deserve it.
I'm in the US so I know it's a "strange" concept, but people have seemed genuinely upset, people it doesn't affect at all. Again, it's a state program available to almost anyone who's worked in the past 2 years, I've talked to soon to be dads who scoffed at the idea and were happy to use a week of pto and that's it.
I feel like I'm missing something.
People are idiots. Why would you give up a benefit you're legally entitled to? Nobody is going to as much as thank you for that.
Come to the EU, noone will scoff at paternity leave here. On the contrary, colleagues will congratulate you for procreating lol
@neomachino,
You will never get the time back to be with your offspring during these formative months into years. I would scoff at any "scoffers" and tell them their bragging of not taking time off to be with their family isn't the flex they think it is. Life is more than just your occupation. I'm an American living in the Netherlands with my Dutch wife these days, and I can guarantee with certainty my European colleagues would scoff at me if I didn't take the time off. Attitudes towards this are changing in the U.S., albeit too slowly in my opinion, but our culture is fundamentally sick. I primarily blame puritanical christian zealotry that made its pact with the devil (pun fully intended) with avaricious capital for much of the woes found in our society, for what its worth. Gods willing, this will die out in a few generations.
Take the time and cherish it; your future self and children will thank you.
Their logic is from a POV of they dont get the benefit since they aren't expecting parents or didn't get that benefit if/when they wer, so why should anyone else. When really the proper evolved response is to be happy that new trends are being set and we're improving the cruel system that keeps new parents from critically important family time.
My man, you are literally getting paid to spend time with a tiny human being you helped make. You’d have to be pretty deep into the Kool-aid bottle to say no to that.
I had my mandatory 15 weeks last year and loved it, so from one dad to another: enjoy it!
And remember: if you die tomorrow, you’ll be replaced at work within a few weeks, but you can never ever be replaced at home.
What you're missing is some men legitimately hate their wives and children and dislike spending time with them. Others drank the coolaid of American capitalist propaganda. Your child will only be a newborn once and your wife will need the help. If anything you should be normalizing it by telling all your friends and colleagues how great it is and how happy you are to get to spend that time with your family. Never shut up about how awesome it is. Expound at length about the many benefits you personally enjoyed thanks to your time with your new child. Every man you convince makes the world a better place.
When I was born my dad worked for himself, he was never home and I can remember running away from him crying cause my mum was leaving the house. He found permanent employment by the time I was 2 because of this.
These men are fuckwits and will wonder why they don’t have or struggle to form a relationship with their children in later life.
If you hate her why would you marry or have kids with her? Its completely optional to have a wife or child.
I guess because people fall in and out of love, which is natural, so they start a family and later everything changes. Also because people's personality changes with time and because they tend to conform to social expectations.
Social pressure. "When are you getting married? When are you having kids?"
For some people, that's enough to push them into doing it.
Take the full 12 weeks - you’ll never regret it. Superhero dads are there for their wife and children. You’re doing the right thing.
You are experiencing gender based persecution. Think of men who can't be a stay at home dad, work as a nurse, or can't show emotion, etc. Women who want to do construction work or STEM. LGBT and especially trans discrimination is also that taken to an extreme because the perceived gender divergence is more drastic. For whatever reason, there are many people in society who want to enforce strict artificial gender roles on other people.
You are missing better coworkers, or coworkers who haven't succumbed to the stupid idea that working yourself to the bone for someone else's profit is good.
"Men are hard working" my ass. Taking care of kids is hard work and if they can't understand that, their social conditioning worked exactly as expected.
I had 12 months of paternity leave, 11 paid. I dig it.
I always thought it should be even between both parents, along with a staggered return to work at the end. So ideally you can have parents then working mostly alternate days for a few weeks before a full return to work. And the employer shouldn't be allowed to have any say in it because otherwise its inevitable that pressure is put on you not to take it.
You’re the smart one. Fuck the haters. Ignore them.
Ignore them. If you can, should you try and stagger the time off with your s/o. Don't take it at the same time.
First of all dont tell your coworkers shit. It almost always becomes ammo for them later.
Definitely take advantage of every state program you can. You paid for it already. People talkin shit are fuckin smoothbrained trogs
Those first few months, especially with your first kid… man. The sleep deprivation alone makes it worth it. Not to mention all the firsts that happen so fast that you’ll otherwise miss… presumably to work for “the man.”
Am American, but been lucky enough to work with people who understand this, and maxed out all paternity leave I could get.
Fuck those people dude. When it comes to children. The days are long, but the years are short. Enjoy the time you have with them when they are little and don't miss out on all those amazing moments. I took 12 weeks with my kid and it was wonderful to just watch her grow. Take benefits where you can, fuck the haters.
I came into this thread thinking I'd just post "Uhh, it was pretty nice?"
Then I read the post text. Jesus fuck.
The other comments are probably right, no real point in doing anything but ignoring them. But goddamn, my first instinct would be to try and call them out on that bullshit attitude. No way am I clever enough to do it effectively, though.
Pretty sure THEY are the ones missing something. They've been brainwashed into thinking you should be embarrassed NOT to shun your family so you can be at work 24/7 to make someone else rich. Take advantage of that program while it still exists.
It's the typical toxic corporate pressure.
Fuck machismo.
Enjoy it. A great number of people in the US have been conditioned to tie up their sense of worth to their job, and can’t comprehend there’s more to life.
I’d take 12 years paternity leave if I could.
My main thought on paternity leave is that it should be exactly the same as the maternity leave so that there is no difference between hiring a man or a woman.
This or eventually give a total amount to the couple and let them decide to split according to their needs (with a minum each partner, maybe).
Downside there is the company can then try and pressure one of them, usually the man, into not taking much/any.
Any man that thinks work is more important than spending time with the family is a bad father. I say this as the son of a bad father.
I'm fortunate to work at a place that offers some leave for paternity, but with the option of being "flexible" about it. I've seen most of my coworkers take off for 2-4 weeks (out of 6), then return to work half time or so once things start settling. Two have taken all 6 weeks, one for medical reasons (baby needed follow up), and one purely to spend more time with baby/wife.
I haven't needed paternity leave, so I don't know how much more money you get for returning to work early, but I think I'm inclined towards taking 3 weeks, then coming back to work unless there's something wrong. There's a bunch to admire about prioritizing your time bonding over money, and I don't want to take anything away from that - it's just not me.
It is a no brainer dude. Absolutely take the leave. You know how the work culture is here in the US, it's pretty ridiculous. The "Live to Work" crowd is getting pretty old now though so I have seen a shift in corporate culture where I am at.
Work is something I do, not who I am.
Americans have been indoctrinated to feel their work is their worth.
It's just hyperbolic masculine capitalism being parroted. Live in the U.S. south and have dealt with many friends and their relatives who have said the same shit. I've been around long enough to see those same people completely fall apart when the lives at home just crumble because they're too busy with work (illness, deaths in family, etc). They always eventually come to regret the decisions and times they've missed once they get in their later years.
There's nothing wrong with choosing to prioritize a work career in one's life though, but hating on someone else's choice is just ridiculous.
When my daughter was born, I was blown away to find that my company offered 16 weeks paternity leave. A couple of weeks before my wife was due, I was talking to a coworker and found that his wife was also pregnant, but he didn't know about our company's parental leave policy. He had only been planning to take a couple of weeks. After we talked I found out he took the whole thing.
That four months was one of the greatest times of my life, getting to know my newborn daughter.
Three years later I was in a different job when my son was born. They offered three days. Six months later I found a new job, and I took an extra month off during the transition, just so I could spend every day with my son.
I don't regret any of that. I can't even imagine what that would feel like. I love my children and love being a dad. This is life. This is all we get.
Life at home would have to be pretty bad for me to rather be at work.
What moron would pass up on 85% paid leave??
Furlough was such a sweet deal during the covid lockdowns. Like 80% pay and no work? Sign me up!
I have four kids and I took ~6 weeks of paternity leave for each of them (which was in my contract—I’m an Episcopal priest, though I still went in on Sundays because I was going to go to church regardless so I might as well lead services and save the parish money on paying what we call a “supply priest”). It’s absolutely worth it and don’t let anyone make you feel weird about it. You’re doing a great thing for your partner and child—as well as yourself. Babies are a lot of work for dads as well! Acting like dads don’t need paternity leave is a form of patriarchy.
I don't think you're missing anything. I think that your co-workers bragging is one of the toxic effects of how we tend to think about productivity nowadays, especially in America. I think that there's a tendency to glorify suffering (i.e. sacrificing time with your family to do so much work that by the time you get home to your family, you're too exhausted to be fully present with them).
I know fathers who effectively didn't have a choice about spending time with their newborns, because of a mixture of social pressures (especially gendered pressure from extended family) and financial pressure (such as not having access to paternity leave), who then go on to brag about how much they worked and sacrificed, framing it as if it's a choice they're glad they made. I think that for some people, this nonsense rhetoric is what they tell themselves to cope with the fact they were effectively coerced into something they regret.
Long story short, you're not missing anything. You are, in some ways though, going against the grain: even in places that have paid paternity leave, that alone isn't enough to change the tide of social attitudes. That change happens because of people like you who go "fuck this nonsense, I'm not making a martyr of myself to support my family when I can do a much better job supporting them if I'm there with them".
Unfortunately, based on reports from friends who are fathers, this is just scratching the surface of people being weird about men who are enthusiastic and engaged fathers. It sounds like you've got your priorities in order though. Your coworkers are very silly, and even if you don't feel it appropriate or necessary to tell them how absurd they are, you should at least internalise the fact that you are the sensible one here. An analogy that comes to mind is how, if your employer matches your 401k contributions, it's a no-brainer to take advantage of what is basically free money. If someone has "spare" salary and asked for financial advice online, one of the first and most basic suggestions is often that if you're not already taking advantage of any 401k match your employer offers, you definitely should be. It's free money! Similarly, taking advantage of the paid paternity leave is a no-brainer. This isn't a challenge run in a video-game, so there aren't any prizes for making things needlessly harder for oneself.
Edit: Also, I bloody hate it when people say shit like this:
"Most men are hard working and want to support their families so they don't take leave".
The subtext they're saying here is "I don't acknowledge parenting (and other caring labour) as being hard work, and I certainly don't acknowledge how critical essential this labour is for the world to function. I assume that this work is primarily for women, because this allows me to ignore it and the people who do it, which allows me to feel more important. The only way I can maintain my self identity as 'hardworking' is if I implicitly demean others' hard work".
It's bullshit, and your instincts are right to flag this shit as weird. Parenting is bloody difficult, and anyone who makes comments like this are actively reinforcing old systems that led to many fathers not being given the opportunity to be active fathers.
Anyway, rant finished. I'll finish this edit with something I forgot to say in my main comment: congratulations, and good luck in the weeks to come. And well done on taking this paternity leave, because that helps to disrupt the existing, outdated systems of traditional family structure that make everyone miserable. The impact of one person's choice is only small, but if enough people opt for their family over slaving over the altar of capitalism, I hope that we can build a world where a father wanting to actively be a father is treated like the normal thing it is.
I bet you're an awesome husband and dad. If you can afford it, it's absolutely a no brainer.
It's a psychological defense, "I did this and it was ok and it's the right thing to do, so everyone must do it too". It's like backwards logic, like, I think it's s good idea simply because I was forced to do it and that's the only way it makes the whole thing ok.
Also related: toxic culture of "toughen up".
The brain works in quirky ways. There's real studies that show that if something is higher price people attribute better characteristics to it.
the us serious lacking the amount of leave you need, or makes its super-convoluted.
Good for you! That time with your family is really important.
I'm from the US and I caused quite a stir when I took 4 weeks off; 3 days paternity leave and the rest was accrued vacation. HR was trying to convince me to break it up because "it would self a bad precedent." But my boss was supportive and approved it anyway.
Holy shit, 12 weeks ! I'm from France and paternity leave is notoriously lacking (compared to other forms of welfare that exist alongside it). I feel 12 weeks is generous and fantastic.
You must be American...
I wonder what could possibly make you think that. Perhaps it is mentioned in the post.
As a Canadian living in the US I cringed hard reading OPs post.
The state I'm in offers shit pay for leave but I was fortunate enough to be able to take it.
I don't see why anyone in the right financial position wouldn't.
America has an incredibly toxic hustle culture that's obsessed with productivity and gives little credence to mental health, physical health or work life balance. Women feel some degree of pressure from it but it's especially harmful to men.
I can only imagine how American women feel though many of them are brainwashed into thinking it's masculine for a father to largely ignore their family for work.
Don't listen to those morons. Paternity leave is a legit great way to stay with your wife and children when they need it the most.
Yea F those tools that judge you on wanting to be there for your wife and kid.
For some providing a reliable income is their way of supporting, but man is it great to actually provide the time to be there in person
Absolutely take paternity. Why wouldn't you?
12 weeks paternity leave at 85% salary? Damn, that's sweet, even by many EU standards.
I wouldn't think twice about taking it.
Enjoy your leave. You obviously have the sense to know that you are taking it for: your wife, your child and your mental health. You will give your family a better head start. Corporate won't notice. If they are going to fire you, they'll do it even if you had spent the time period working double overtime instead of being on leave.
I've seen my coworkers take paternity leave, which I think is like 8 weeks where I work.
Generally, they've staggered it with their spouse so that one parent is working and the other on child care, rather than both being out over the same window. Typically the Dad's have taken their leave a couple months after the baby is born when Mom is returning to work. It keeps the baby out of daycare for as long as possible.
My US company went ham on paternity leave. I adopted a 3-day-old and got 12 weeks leave.
I provided pretty decent support from home for my position for the first week, I did small things and help people in my department get up to speed on what I had to do. I was kind of sleep deprived but they needed the help to start with. 9 times out of 10 I was holding the baby because at that age there's not much you're doing other than holding feeding or changing them. And that's what they really need.
I then took a solid 6 weeks of only minimal interactions. I would drop in on occasional daily meetings mostly so I knew what was going on.
The vast majority of my work can happen from home. The sleep deprivation and bonding time are the important things to take care of, along with giving my partner a decent level of support and adjustment time. Putting in a little work here and there in between things actually gave me a little bit of mental stimulus when I needed it.
The six to eight week period, I ramped up a little more and remotely attended most meetings. I started coming in a few times a week from 8 to 12 weeks so that my partner didn't feel my support just fall off a cliff for 8 hours a day.
It's important to get that early bonding time in, it's important to give your partner the support they need to adjust. I honestly feel that what I did makes a lot more sense than just 12 weeks of off time. I think I'd probably rather have 8 weeks solid and then have another 4 weeks of flexible PTO that I could take around them learning to crawl, walk, have medical issues.
Nothing about child rearing fits nicely into a 12-week box.
Your coworkers desperately need class consciousness, working until your bones give out is not "supporting your family" its being a wage slave.
The majority of America's working class are wage slaves who grind themselves to dust with a smile on their face making bank for their capitalist overlords while telling themselves they're "built different"
Go to any small American town and you'll meet hundreds of examples of when 'rugged individualism' goes wrong.
You are surrounded with workaholic, misogynists. My company gives full pay for 12 weeks for mothers and fathers. Several of my coworkers, mostly men, have used their leave in full (usually 9 weeks together and the other 3 broken up). Nobody ever looks down on people for taking leave.
Maybe they would take all of it if it was for full pay. Ya'll motherfuckers need a union.
Most democratic countries have a full 12 months leave or more for whichever parent ( or shared between both.) Maybe this lack of early bonding and co-regulation between family members explains US as it is today.
Me and my wife shared two years, twice.
Most Americans dump their kids in daycare at 3 months of age.
Not due to any fault of their own. FMLA (federal leave) only provides 3 months of unpaid time and many states and employers do not provide any additional coverage. So, both mom and dad are often back to work three months into their baby's life.
If they don't go back to work then they lose healthcare coverage since that's tied to employment in the US.
If it sounds dystopian.. Welcome to the 'greatest country on earth'.
Oh and by the way, daycare costs $1500/month so you might have to work extra to make up for all that unpaid leave you took.
Nah, it's the lead and microplastics
Both parents should be entitled to take 12 months leave as a minimum, and their employer should be required to pay their salary and protect their position during that time.
In a lot of developed countries the employer can claim back money from the government when a employee takes maternity leave or sick leave.
That way companies don't really have a reason to discriminate based on if you might get pregnant etc.
I believe in leave for having a child but how do you picture this working unless it is government funded? Lad and lass get out of college at 22. Enter their first job. Are there for 6 months to a year, and then take a year off, go back to work for 6-12 months, off for a year. Now they are 25-26 years old, 2 kids and have at most 2 years of experience in their field. Have only worked for the company for most 2 years and had 2 years off. In which then many would leave that job as it no longer fits around their schedules assuming the business didn't do layoffs and such.
I know a lot of people think they'll wait till their older to have kids but a lot of that is about time and financial security. If I knew my job was secure when I was coming out of college I would have married my then fiancee and would have reproduced 2-3 times at that age. Putting 60,000 young humans in a small area made for a lot of active fit horny people. I know a lot of Universities are smaller, but either way, I can't see any small businesses surviving it. They'd all have to choose to hire 35+ year old workers to lower their odds of paying out the leave. (Unless like mentioned previously it's all covered by the state)
I mean, I'm no economist so I cant exactly speak on the how, but the government should be involved in the funding for this, passing the financial burden onto parents would just cause either those couples to not have kids, or not give those new born kids the adequate attention they need leading to further problems in their life.
Your coworkers are fucking idiots.
I too recognize that this person's coworkers are fucking idiots.
I three recognize that this person's coworkers are fucking idiots.
My Colorado Comrades in corporate environments take the time. I've seen a number of guys go out on Paternity since we enacted paid paternity leave in our state. It's legally protected, we fought and voted for it. If your boss doesn't like it they can eat shit and die because it's your right. Your family is more important than some corporate nonsense.
The "work yourself to death" is a stupid boomer concept. It's a hugely negative aspect of traditional masculinity.
When people say weird stuff like this, I always question why. Why would you have a kid and then work so hard to be away from it? Why would you work for a company that will lay you off the moment it earns them a higher stock price to do so? (no modern company deserves your loyalty.) Why would you brag about suffering instead of relaxing?
I understand that we're all wired differently but those values literally don't make sense to me.
It's a "Greatest Generation" concept. Those depression-era folks unionized to be able to live a better life, then never bothered to actually retire and live that life. They worked themselves into the grave.
Boomers don't work themselves into the grave. Boomers "Retire in place".
For those that are unaware, retiring in place is actually a great way to describe American politicians.
Boomers keep their job till they go to the grave but they stop working at 65, coasting while collecting a paycheck and having others pick up their slack.
The "work yourself to death" is a stupid boomer concept. It's a hugely negative aspect of traditional masculinity.
At least for boomers, loyalty was often rewarded with promotions, bonuses, and generous pensions. But these days companies will work you to death and then fire you for a 0.0001% boost to their quarterly profits. They'll fire 10,000 people just so the billionaire shareholders can earn 1% more.
Yup. Loyalty is a two way street. I know pretty successful companies whose former employees still speak highly of, precisely because the company did the whole "you work hard and we treat you well" thing. The moment that that trust is lost, your employees will treat you in kind. Except for some idiots falling for the propaganda of course.
I went through the same thing when I took my paternity leave. Other male coworkers bragged about how they went back to work the day after their kid was born.
It's a culture thing where our society is conditioned to be boot lickers for the ruling class. I responded to them at the time, "Congratulations on being a bad father, I'm going to take every day entitled to me"
Don't fall into their trap.
There's nothing impressive about a man going back to work the day after their child was born unless they somehow popped the newborn out of their precious little asshole.
All it means is that they're willing to put their wife at risk of post partum depression and that they don't give a shit about their child. Not a thing to be proud of there.
Yup. Had old union buddies I was talking to after my first, and I brought up that he had a diaper blowout earlier, and they were like "I've never changed a diaper in my life!"
Just told them " damn, I'd be too embarrassed to admit I were that bad of a father in public..."
I find it hilarious when people brag about things they think are cool but it just makes them look like dumbasses.
"Lol I can drink 24 beers in one sitting"
"I never call in sick, I can be hacking up a lung and I'm still there at the office"
On and on...
These are the idiots that put the ruling class in the position that they hold today. Is it any wonder why they have so much power?
I heard that early childhood (first weeks, months, maybe years) are vital for development of emotional intelligence. Neglect could lead to life-long struggles. So I'm happy to hear you favor the idea to stay and care. Good for you, you both, and all of us.
Honestly, fuck those coworkers. What I will tell you is this: They're only newborns for so long, and after that they're only babies for so long. Those are some of the most precious moments in life. Giving that up to wage slave for a company that at the end of the day doesn't give a shit about you? When given the opportunity to experience something that will probably only happen once or twice in your lifetime? You should 100 percent go for it. The other option is looking back on how you missed out on something you will never get back. I missed out on one kids baby phase pulling 60 hour weeks. Was lucky enough to be around for my second and was able to take paternity leave. Best decision I was given, and hate myself for missing out on my first kid.
almost bragging how little time they took after their kids were born
I had a coworker bragging about lying to his wife that he couldn't take time off. This is fucked up on so many levels: why even have a kid? Why do you lie to your wife? Why are you telling people you barey know (I had been there for like two weeks) that you lie to your wife? WTF?
I feel like I’m missing something.
Maybe they're insecure? They don't know what to do with the new kid, and instead of figuring it out together with their partner they run back to the things they know and hide behind a fake martyrdom. I wonder how many of them will in a few months or years say that women are "naturals" when it comes to taking care of kids.
Congrats on the kid and on being an actual dad!
Why marry her if you don't like her that much? Like, seriously? I know there is the meme of "burnt-out husband spending weekends working overtime so he can avoid his wife", but those are usually failing relationships.
I was interviewing with my current company while my wife was pregnant and I didn't disclose it to them bc I didn't want it to impact my hireability. My wife was due about a month into my tenure after I got hired. I told my boss after I was hired, and only took maybe a week off. The only reason I took such a short amount of time was I didn't want my boss to think poorly of me so soon into the job and make a good 1st impression. I was sleep deprived the whole time and my performance was definitely impacted.
When my 2nd was born, you best believe I took the full 12 weeks, and every day was worth it. That bonding time is absolutely irreplaceable, and I wish I had it the first go 'round. You only get 1 chance at it. Fuck your coworkers, they're probably shitty parents.
What you're missing is full brainwashing from the patriarchy, from the bootlicking capitalists.
Any partner who can but doesn't support their partner and newborn is an ass.
Any partner who can but doesn't take advantage of the leave benefit they earned is giving free money to their employer overlords like an absolute cuck.
Be revolutionary, put your family over your employer.
Be revolutionary, put your family over your employer.
If that's revolutionary, we may be beyond saving.
I got it. I think it was 3 weeks. Unfortunately it was unpaid. I had to take on extra work before and after to make up for the loss in income. It was all we were allowed.
I would do it again. Those 3 weeks at home are irreplaceable. Should it be paid? Should it be longer? Abso-fucking-lutely. But paternity leave? Take it if you can get it.
this is part of your compensation. you pay state taxes for it. And you deserve it. decades of corporate propaganda has made most people believe they don't deserve leave at all. ignore the haters and take your leave.
You deserve this as much as you deserve the road you are driving on, or the tax return you get. You wouldn't skip the tax return, right? So treat it like a nice little informal tax return.
Paternity leave saved my life when I was a young father with an ill wife. Take as much time as you can.
Also, side note, the year I took off of work to care for them when my sons were small (3 and 5) I look back on as one of the best decisions I ever made. Despite the fact we were flirting with homelessness, the bonding and memories made a huge impact on them, and now that they're adults, we have an amazing relationship that far surpasses the distant bond I have with my own father.
That group you overheard were reinforcing their excuses for ignoring the needs of their child along with the needs of the mom, and reinforcing beliefs that have overwhelming evidence of being false.
Kids needs dads in their lives, the earlier the better. Moms need dads to help out and support them.
You're not taking time off work to laze about, you're switching from one job to take on several related jobs for a while so that you,your child, and your woman have a brighter future than any amount of money could buy.
You're only missing out on taking the easy, shortsighted route. You're missing out on ignoring the future cost your family has to pay in or for you to get back to the familiar routine of work as soon as possible. You're missing out on staying with the known game of work to avoid taking on something new.
You're not missing out, they are.
Americans are weird.
Honestly the time with your partner and kid is precious irreplaceable.
Anyone who's weird about it is insecure about their own paternal involvement.
I worked during my mom's last months of life while taking care of her because the company allowed me to fully work from home, no question asked if I was available ok, if I wasn't ok too. And I brag about that. Otherwise I would have taken a sick leave to take care of my mom (which my country allows), but working gave me a good, I don't know how to say, sometimes when I had work and my mom didn't need me I didn't think about the situation and that was nice.
People should make use of their rights, although in my case I found a compromise that, in my opinion, benefited me; but this company gained my loyalty for the time being.
Today I witnessed a group of coworkers almost bragging how little time they took after their kids were born. I've heard stuff like "Most men are hard working and want to support their families so they don't take leave".
Toxic masculinity.
This is textbook toxic masculinity.
A lot of people misuse the term, but this is an excellent example. The men involved lose out on something amazing due to it being 'unmanly'.
Those people are jealous fucking idiots. 12 weeks is hardly anything. You get a fucking year for each parent in Norway
The traditional view that the father needs to work is strong. In Denmark we have had the opportunity to share the maternity/paternity leave between parents for several years, but most often the mother would take the majority, with only 2 weeks being specific for the father.
This is due to the imbalance in pay, since the cut in pay would be larger for a man (generally), so men voluntarily gave the leave to their wives. This is obviously not the intention of the leave and also based on the flaw of unequal pay. Keep in mind that the wage difference is often explained as being caused by the mother taking more leave and thereby not advancing her career during the years when they have small children.
So, to fix his, the latest law make more weeks untransferable. The father now has 11 weeks that can not be transferred. Use it or lose it.
One would expect such a removal of flexibility to make people upset, because technically it will cost the families more potential income, but it hasn't.
It turns out that most men actually wanted the additional weeks of paternity leave. They just needed it to be normalized and/or the legal framework to demand it, so they don't have to have this discussion with their employers or wives. No man is ever asked why they're taking it now. Use it or lose it makes sense to everyone.
In addition we still have 26 (13+13) weeks that can be transferred however the parents want. Still very flexible.
Shared still incentivizes women to be taking it regardless of income. Breast feeding is a lot of goddamn work and is far far far superior for newborns with no antibodies. But newborns no matter how you slice it are a ton of goddamn work. Particularly true in the early postpartum weeks when pumping just isn't going to get consistent results.
I was so mad that I only had 1 week of PTO to take care of my wife and son after the rough birth. Thankfully some friends pulled us into their place to help take care of my wife while I had to work, otherwise she would have had to get grippy socks....
I fucking hate this country.
I got a new job before our second. No PTO at all so I took 2 weeks unpaid. My wife needed me for much longer than I was able to be there. I was angry but I had to return to work. We had no outside help and the next 6 months were so rough that my productivity at work dropped off significantly. I was let go when my second was 6 months old. If I had PTO I would've used all of it and same with any paternity leave.
The only way the masses ever get what they are owed is through large scale violence
Large scale civil disobedience often worked quite well, too. But it has to be large-scale, so it cannot be player oft as "those selfish few need to be punished".
Sadly, that only happens in extreme circumstances. Think end of WW1 Germany, where a large part of the soldiers and workers decided that enough is enough.
Sounds like attitude of wage slaves that have been brainwashed into doing everything for the corpos and being fine with getting scrap. They live to work as opposed to work to live.
Can't change the slave mentality of some people. They were just born to be one.
People always bitch about fathers being too busy for their kids and shit but as soon as a father wants to be there they're all like "ew what the fuck is wrong with him"
Sounds like an American cultural issue to me. Haven't really seen this anywhere else in the world.
America is the only country.
Honestly it took me years to lose the American work mindset. It was destroying my brain.
Take the leave and feel no shame. Others are reacting because you taking leave challenges their understanding of work. Something that is exceedingly rare in the US.
I'll never have biological children of my own and I'll never get to use that benefit. From a strictly selfish standpoint, it stings a bit that pretty much all my heterosexual friends and coworkers, male and female, get a minimum of 12 - 36 weeks of paid time off that I'll never get.
Having said that, I'm genuinely happy that they get it, I think it's a shame that 12 weeks per child isn't a minimum standard for paternity & maternity leave. In the professional settings I've worked in that offer paternity leave, I've never experienced a coworker complaining or making fun of a man taking paternity leave, nor have I ever heard of a man NOT taking paternity leave when it's offered.
The places I've worked that offer it also usually offer flexible leave, so it's very common for new dads to take 4 - 6 weeks off at birth, and then work a reduced schedule for the remaining time until they're out of leave, after which they return full time. Even some of the moms are doing that as well, basically maximizing the amount of time that at least one parent is on leave and at home with the newborn.
But, outside of professional settings and particularly within conservative/Republican family and acquaintances, typically lower-to-middle class people, they act like paternity leave is ridiculous. My dad laughed out loud a while back when I mentioned I was taking over a new project because my coworker was about to go on paternity leave "What? Are you serious?" In my opinion, "toxic masculinity" aka stupid, ignorant, and useless concepts of overly rigid gender stereotypes is where this type of opinion is rooted. That and probably a good degree of jealousy.
As a straight man who absolutely doesn't want kids, I understand you. But raising a kid is a fuckton of work, and parents deserve a chance to do it right, so I'm not jealous. After all, my decision to not have children will probably save me loads of money. A tax cut here and there is just fair, if you ask me.
You should start “smoking”. Protected breaks every set timeframe. Your work doesn’t matter, you need to “chase the dragon” as it’s culturally protected. Why take a few months all at once for a kid when you can take 15 min over a longer time and rack up much more time overall?
Combine that with taking a dump at work and suddenly hours are devoted away from the task… maternity leave is just their version of work / life balance.
I think a lot of the pushback can be chalked up to jealousy as well. If you are living paycheck to paycheck, then you can’t afford to take a 15% pay cut. Then of course, you taking leave means that they will have added responsibilities until you get back as well.
But it’s your right, if you can afford it then you absolutely should take it if that’s what you want. You can’t get this time back
Holy cow, that is a strange concept - I was coming back to add some of the hate you’re getting might be from affordability. Any paternity leave you can get in the US is usually vacation and unpaid. No one can afford much of that. That’s amazing that you still get an income to support taking care of your new child
Someone else pointed out that they wouldn't be able to survive off of 85% pay without finding gig/temp work. And I'll admit, I'm in a fortunate enough position now that I didn't put much thought into that 15% being detrimental. We'll surely blow through most of our savings and that'll hurt, but we'll be alright.
With my first son I was working 2 jobs when he was born and we were already well behind on a lot of bills so the thought of leave didn't ever begin to cross my mind. It does make me even more appreciative of the position we're in now.
I don’t know what to say to you.
In Canada we get 18 months which can be 12 maternity and 6 paternity, or a combo of say 15 and 3.
The amazing thing is that it’s amazing to such a rich country that we look after our people.
Swede here. Taking care of your family means being an active parent and a sharing partner.
I took 18 months paternity leave with our firstborn so my partner could finish their degree.
I’m a dad of two, and in my country (Norway) it’s mostly common to divide the leave. With my first, I had 9 months of paternity leave, 6 months with my youngest. The two best periods of my life!
I did 6 months for each of my kids and it was great.
Paternity leave is a no brainer for families of all stripes. Both spouses should have time off to care for their children in the first year of their life, especially during the vulnerable first year before they are immunized against dangerous diseases. And I'm in a same sex relationship, so I'm definitely using it when we are ready to have kids, haha.
Honestly, each parent should have 6 mo of paid leave.
Edit: adding onto this, all men's bathrooms should have changing stations. It's insane that some women's do, but men's do not.
Honestly, each parent should have 6 mo of paid leave.
Heck yes. 12 weeks is nothing. The baby still needs a ton of help at this stage.
all men's bathrooms should have changing stations
This is unfortunately one of those things that people care about greatly for a very short time when it affects them and then never more. It never really gets any traction.
Thankfully it never was much of an issue to me, even if I almost singlehandedly changed every single diaper due to my wife having a bad shoulder. I quickly learned to change a diaper everywhere. On the floor, in the car, busting into the ladies nursery rooms, just everywhere. I got so good at it, that I bet I could change a diaper faster and cleaner than a Formula One wheel even without a table.
Nobody ever complained. The only odd situation was when I busted into a nursing room full of muslim women where a young mother was breastfeeding. Her entourage gave me quite the looks and standing in my way shielding her, so I said "I need to change diaper". The mother looked up and everyone was watching her for a reaction, but she smiled and said "It's right over there" pointing me to the changing table. It was quite the stinker, so I apologized on my way out.
However. I admit. This is not the best way to change diaper. A good diaper change is not fast. It's a time for bonding. It's not something I want to do in a public space with the rest of the family waiting for us, but at home, it's the perfect time to get some eye contact with the baby and confirming that, yes, your father is there for you to get you out of all the shit you get yourself into. It's perfectly fine if it takes half an hour in which most of the time is spent playing peak-a-boo. It's a chore, but it's also a much needed break from other chores. And this counts for both parents at the same time. Your partner would love nothing more than for you to disappear with the baby for half an hour.
And that is why paternity leave is really important for the father and baby.
However. I admit. This is not the best way to change diaper. A good diaper change is not fast. It's a time for bonding. It's not something I want to do in a public space with the rest of the family waiting for us, but at home, it's the perfect time to get some eye contact with the baby and confirming that, yes, your father is there for you to get you out of all the shit you get yourself into. It's perfectly fine if it takes half an hour in which most of the time is spent playing peak-a-boo. It's a chore, but it's also a much needed break from other chores. And this counts for both parents at the same time. Your partner would love nothing more than for you to disappear with the baby for half an hour.
I love this perspective. I've definitely become inured to diaper changes and I try to get them done as fast as possible, but this is sweet and you're right, it's a moment for some low key play, eye contact and for them to know you're taking good care of them. What a nice way of looking at cleaning up poop 😆
You are absolutely right! 85% is nice money and especially in the first months it's super important to spend time with your new born and to support the mother.
And for all those fuckers who think that you "aren't working" in this time... Well, get a child and take care of it. It's way harder than you think. You will see, it's gonna be a hard but also rewarding time. My second daughter is now 3 months... And boy, to see everything that is happening within 3 months. It's unbelievable and makes me so happy.
You're on the right path.
I've often heard it framed as you aren't 'productive' during that time.
Which is true if you don't think that investing time in your family is worthwhile.
My thoughts:
We have it at my work (just called paid parental leave) and the guys seem to really consider it a benefit, they take it. Like you. Nobody has ever said anything but Congratulations. This is in Florida. You ARE supporting your family. I got 0 weeks paid when I gave birth, I'm really happy this is starting to change. Parenting is valuable work.
Spending the first 2 month of my child's life with them was one of the best things in my life.
Yeah probably as always only a matter of perspective. Don't listen to other men, just do what feels right for yourself.
I took a solid 9 months paternity leave with my son, and I think we just built the best base for a father son relationship I could ever imagine or hope to have. I know they don't seem like it as a baby, but you are building your foundation already.
This was 3 years ago and I still feel the outcome of it every day.
Go for it , be yourself, don't listen to others.
Here in Ireland I got a meagre 2 weeks (but took an additional 2 weeks unpaid!)
I'm currently on paternity leave. Took 8 weeks broken into two chunks. 5 weeks when baby was born and 3 when my wife's 12 weeks ended. I couldn't imagine taking a few days and diving back into work. Both my wife and I work demanding jobs - I'm not sure I'd feel the same bond with my son if I didn't have this time... I also wouldn't have the same appreciation for how challenging it can be to be solo with the kiddo. It's pretty much a full time job to feed, change, and tend to the little guy. He's fighting to be a never napper and wakes up after 20-30 mins in his bassinet. Only gets longer naps if on my lap, which pretty much locks me down in whatever chair were in when he falls asleep (I know I can't do contact naps forever and need to get him used to falling asleep on his own).
All that to say... I think all dad's should get paternity leave. 5 weeks is fine. 8 is good. 12 is perfect.
Fully agree. I did 1 month paternity from the birth and will take another month some time later in the year. 100% worth taking the time off to bond with the baby and to be as supportive as possible by doing all the things around the house your partner who is breastfeeding doesnt have the time or energy to do. It's a once per child experience that they're this young and will develop fast so I'm happy that I could soak it up in full and be there for it to happen.
If I had the opportunity to go back and do it differently, I wouldn't.
Most men are hard working and want to support their families
... which is exactly why you should take paternity leave and support your family, instead of abandoning them for 8 hours a day at work. I'd feel like a total asshole if I just took off and said, "Good luck with the baby, honey. I'm gonna go hang out with my friends at work."
8 hours a day plus whatever the commute time is (times two)
Lunch isn’t included; 8-5 is 9 hours…
I'm pretty sure there is enough research that supports the idea of paternity leave increasing parental involvement and connection with your child and leading to more gender equality/more balanced responsibilities in families.
My husband and I went the very conservative route with him being off for 2 months and me being off for 3 years (German classic). Let me tell you I would have not survived the newborn stage, having no help from outside, without him. At the same time, for him it was so hard - although I am not sure that work was easier, he after all still came home to a little baby. Parental leave doesn't mean you get to chill, it means you have no excuse for not doing half of the night shift, half of everything except breast feeding. When he went back to work, he would do the night shifts on the weekends, and I would do all the night shifts on workdays.
Your co-workers are morons. They miss out on helping their baby mamas, connecting with their kids, and going through a unique experience. Even if your pay was much lower, it's worth it. It's hard and stressful and awful and it is the best thing you'll ever do.
Its amazing. Especially if you take it when mom goes back to work. That's your time to figure out how to be a parent. Not what works for mom or grandparents. Your thing between dad and baby. I figured out I had to take walks around the block to get baby to nap. I think of that sometimes now when she's big. Also: if they give you shit: say - "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to spend more time with your kids."
My wife's a gig worker and does mostly weekends in summer so I usually get all of that time to be a parent on my own, and while I miss my wife a lot, I love being the sole parent. My son and I have such a different flow than him and my wife and it's so interesting to see.
That first summer with our oldest was rough, he was only a few months old, I was working 2 jobs just so we could scrape by so he didn't really know me yet, he screamed and screamed but eventually we got in a good groove and I found a spot on his back that if I rubbed put him right to sleep. That spot still works 3 years later
I took it, no way I'd miss spending quality time with our newborn and be there for my wife.
The employer has some heads up that it's coming too, so they can adjust the workload for something that occurs maybe once or twice in an employee's lifetime.
But then I live in Quebec, Canada and the father can take 5 weeks and the mother can take a year. (The father can take more, but they're swapped of the mother's year).
In my work environment (in the US), people have roughly this much paternity leave, and it is taken for granted that they will take it because this is viewed as important even if their absence during this time inconveniences the rest of us. They often split it up, though, instead of taking it in a single contiguous chunk.
Central Europe here, i have never seen someone question taking paternity leave. Sure, especially the managers might complain behind their backs about workload or scheduling, but nobody questioned the decision.
I've just lost someone in my team for 4 months due to paternity leave. As far as I'm aware on full pay too.
I'm happy he gets to take it, you guys in the US have it rough with workers rights. I'd say take the maximum you can and enjoy the time, we're not put on this earth to generate profit.
Be the change you want to see and make sure you brag to everyone about how great it is when you get back, maybe they'll start to think differently.
We took the first 10 months together and then I took an additional 8 months while she got back to work.
Literally zero regret. There's so many small moments you'll miss not being around. No amount of money can bring that back. Now that I'm working full time, it fucking hurts just seeing the kid basically just for dinner and bedtime during the week.
I think it’s an important time and should be available to any working American without exception. When my first child was born, I remember asking HR about paternity leave and their deadpan response was “how many vacation days do you have?” Disgusting.
Like mat leave I don’t really think about it, to me it’s just assumed
In Sweden, we have 16 months of parental that can be split between parents.
Nurses do house check-ups for the first few months and it's great for both parents to ask questions and get advice.
These guys who have the option but decline caring for thier family sound like shitty partners/dad's
I had both my kids before this existed. I would have killed to have 12 weeks paid off to be with my new family. Getting exactly zero days off when you are a new dad SUCKS.
Fuuuuck that. There's a reason it's offered. You get once in your life to see your newborns like that. Fuck your coworkers, take the time.
And this is coming from someone who is child free and really doesn't enjoy kids personally. Take the time, be with your family. Jobs come and go but your family is who matters. Start talking the other way. "I want to make sure I absorb this while I can, I can't imagine missing these moments" and "this will only happen once or twice in my life, how could I miss that?".
You are not missing something, they are.
The first couple of years are the most important for a child's development. The more you can be there for your kid, the better. And sharing the load of child rearing will increase the bond between you and your spouse. It's disgusting to see American men reduce "supporting the family" to just bringing home money. Your family needs so much more than that!
I applaud you for taking paternity leave. Most of the criticism towards you is probably a mixture of ignorance and jealously. Take your 12 weeks and come back with a smile on your face and brag how awesome that time was - because it will be.
For comparison: I live in Austria, childcare leave can last from a year to two years and parents can split it 18mo/6mo for instance. Add to that 8 weeks of mandatory "birth time protection" before and after the predicted birth date where mothers aren't allowed to work by law but receive full salary. I WISH my wife and I could have split our maternity/paternity leave but it didn't work out financially back then.
Aside from the obvious fact that you should ne there for your partner and child, paternity leave is both economically sound for your employer and the economy as a whole.
It will mean a healthier child with better relationships to his parents. This will improve his/her performance in school, reduce the likelyhood of problematic behaviour requiring interventions and later the likelyhood of criminal activity.
So your child will likely be a more productive and reliable grown up eventually and you will have less stress as parents, which also improves your productivity.
There is no level of productivity boost that can make up for months of actual absence lol
Paternity leave helps employers attract talent; in all other ways it does not help them at all.
There is no level of productivity boost that can make up for months of actual absence lol
You are absent for half a year. After that you are 20% more productive. After three years the employer will have made a profit on that time investment.
Or you go back to work straight away, you are constantly tired, you are constantly stressed. You make mistakes causing delays and damages in the hundreds of thousands, that you would not make otherwise...
heard stuff like “Most men are hard working and want to support their families so they don’t take leave”
Very cringe and capitalist boot-licking mindset
Let me introduce you to a new concept: 躺平
Chinese people are actually so based and is already resisting their State-Capitalist CCP tyranny
We should learn a thing or two
😎
To me it was a no brainer, I’m getting ~85% of my normal pay
You get paid?
OF COURSE FUCKING TAKE IT. I'd even take it unpaid, GETTING PAID IS LIKE A CHERRY ON TOP. TAKE IT 😎
The quote you’ve quoted is insane. My company gives full pay and same time as maternity leave. 15% pay is fucked. My partner and I are never having kids but I fully support that.
I am not a parent but I think paternity leave is essential. Your wife is doing to need a lot of help and it's just as important for you to bond with your baby as her.
Those guys are going to be “blindsided” by divorce because they’re such “nice guys”….all of the other dudes they constantly spend all of their time trying to impress tell them so
That is an absolute no-brainer. Pay aside, take care of family.
That's the whole purpose of the pay anyhow, money is just an odd totem that we allow to take care of our families.
Plus, you get to hang out with the little one for 3 months! Your wife loves you even better. It's wins all the way down.
Lol, here in Norway 2 months ish paternity leave is mandatory
The mom guys back to work for that period, leaving you alone with the kid, but if they breastfeed you kinda have to stop by the office once a day for snacks...
I did that for 6 months, which is pretty much the max. I enjoyed the hell out of it, you connect way more to your kid honestly.
I got 100% of my pay. (Government gets you to a certain level, and then most companies covers the rest)
From Portugal, here.
Take that time, enjoy it and cherish it. It's your family and that time will be an ever lasting memory for all of you.
It sounds like your fellow wagies have been conditioned to shun anything that smells even a little "socialist". Paternity leave not only smells like communism, but also wokeism by daring to suggest that the man of the house should maybe share the responsibility of taking care of their baby.
You are bravely doing the radical feminist work of daring to care for your wife who is likely going to have trouble with either holding her bladder (if she squeezed your new family member out through her pelvis) or with standing up and holding your baby (if she got a c-section). How do you feel knowing most of your coworkers wouldn't do this for their wife?
I support paternity leave and would like to see it normalized.
Oregon has this and it was amazing to take 12 weeks of paternity. We can also split it up, so I did part time for like 30 weeks. Kept us from needing to find childcare until she was almost 1.
Fuck your coworkers opinions. Even the 12 weeks I got is nothing compared to my Norwegian coworkers.
I took as much time as I was allowed to and wished I got more.
But I've also seen many others take far far less time than they could have and it never made any sense to me.
I just got back from my paternity leave and wish it could have gone on longer. Raising a child in the first few months is like nothing else, and you don't get that time back.
Clearly you're missing some huge hairy balls, what type of man takes time off work to be with their family!?
(/s if it wasn't obvious)
I also had 12 weeks of paternity, but I split mine up. I took 6 weeks (which I feel like was the minimum I should have) at birth to care for the kids and for mama. I split up the other 6 weeks over 2 weeks breaks at different times. It is so important to have dedicated time to bond and care for your child. My relationship with my daughter is amazing and it started so early because I was able to be there and care for her early on. It's weird that in the past people didn't have the opportunity to be there and bond with their children. Why should work ever be more important than your own blood. "Supporting" your family by working vs taking paternity leave and also spending time with your kid is a no brainer. I think some people just think work is the most important part of their life. Work is what makes you money to live your life. Don't forget to live.
I had 6 weeks as that was what my employer allowed. I didn't take it all at once, 4 weeks and 2 weeks later. I found that she needed help more during teething and sleep regression so it might be good to split it up if you can, also helps you keep on top of work.
But would say it's important to ask what she feels she needs. I wouldn't worry about your employer. Also, with the lack of sleep during those first few weeks, I can't imagine anyone is productive at work.
My company does 16 weeks of fully paid paternity. I'm taking 9 weeks at the beginning and breaking up the rest over the year to help with this or that.
I am a little concerned as to what my job will look like when I get back especially with the political climate. But at the end of the day that isn't what is most inorganic to me. My family is.
I scheduled two weeks off for the birth of my first child. Not paternity leave, just vacation time. My wife became a SAHM a few months before. I was bored and went back to work after 1 week. I couldn't imagine 12 weeks.
The kid is just not doing that much. Feed, poop, change, sleep. And the child doesn't recognize you at that stage. It's all stimulus response. If he was crying and I picked him up, he didn't care. I got zero emotional reward for the interaction with the child. Emotional bonding all happened around 3 months old and beyond. Before that the benefit was more in the shared experience with my wife of learning how to take care of a newborn. But really, it's not that hard, and after one week it was old hat.
Yeah best to just leave your partner to deal with the boring newborn lol /s
You think I didn't ask her if she wanted help and make the decision with her? She's a strong woman and perfectly capable of speaking for her self. Her parents were also over and her mom was helping out. But the reality was that she was fine on her own. That was 18 years ago and the first of three kids. She'd tell you the same thing.
I feel like I’m missing something.
No, they are lol. Wth is wrong with them?
That's what I thought. It really felt like I was in the twilight zone going through those conversations.
I kind of wish you were ;-;
I enjoyed my time with our newborn, but it's no vacation. I took 4.5 months of paternity leave in a row.
Sweden is pretty generous with parental leave. Me and the Mrs get 480 days to share between us. 390 of which are at some 80% of our salary. The other 90 days pay peanuts, but great to have when you need some time off to get started with preschool and stuff. You have 90 days earmarked for yourself that can't be transferred to the other parent.
At 5 days a week those 480 days last two years.
It's valuable time. It's as important as maternity leave. Take it.
It seems pretty normalized and expected in the tech company I’m at. I’ll be taking four months or so in August.
Yeah, it's a no brainier for me too. The whole "men don't take leave!" sounds awfully convenient for businesses. But providing for your significant other should be more than just providing money.
Congrats on the kid! You sound like you'll be a much better dad than your coworkers.
Don't feel bad. I'm a man in the USA working in a corporate office. When my son was born I took my time off and it was fantastic for bonding with my son and helping my wife out. Honestly IDK how so many women do it alone.
I'd feel worse about making my wife work extra hard than my colleagues... That said, the person covering my area screwed everything up so badly I decided it was better to find a new job vs fix it. So I took my three months, worked a week and put in my notice and got paid out for another two months of accrued leave.
I was really close to my dad and I LOOOOVEEE that you're doing this. You're showing your child and the world that dad should take an equal share, especially post birth when mum is likely to need additional support. Your post is nothing short of inspirational!
Your coworkers are stupid, shitty fathers. Go be with your kid.
I just got back from effectively 17 weeks of paternity leave- my company provides 12 weeks (or they did last year when I started, it's now only 8), and then I had 5 weeks of PTO, sick time, and floating holidays.
Take all the time you have. Easily the best decision I've made for the past few years. Not only does it remove the "did I get enough sleep during the night" stress, but the time I spent with our new child was amazing.
I'm an software engineering lead for a team of 8, they did fine without me. The boat's still floating, as it were.
I don't intend to get kids but my coworkers have them once in a while.
I think you should have some. I don't think it should be a matter of pride to not take any.
All countries should give one year of paternity leave. I do believe though there needs to be a cool down period of a year and a half because then you would have people that just have five in a row taking advantage.
there needs to be a cool down period
This seems like a solution in search of a problem. I’m sure Republicans will take it and run, like with “welfare queens, “anchor babies”, trans people in sports, etc, but is there even a point? How many women will there be willing to pump out baby after baby, just so the father doesn’t have to work? While I’m sure it’ll happen, I just don’t see it happening enough to worry about. Plus someone will gamigpfy it by timing things to the cooldown period: you can’t win but sometimes the edge cases are just edge cases
Or maybe, do you think this is a legit scenario? We have two kids. We intentionally had them close together to both simplify our lives and give them a “peer” to grow up with. Should I have been allowed paternity leave, or is two children close in age somehow a problem?
First of all I'm left. I'm just trying to meet the people in the middle that would vote against this. That's the democrat's first problem as to why we got in this hot mess with these Republican jerks is that the loudest of y'all want the farthest left shit possible and it fucked us in the election because the Republicans used that against us. Open your eyes and realize Democrats are weak right now and only way back is meeting more in the middle to start.
I'm not a father and I never intend to be one, and I think it's great that you're taking paternity leave.
My son’s a teenager now, but the three months I spent at home with him and my wife after his birth were some of the most incredibly enlightening, rewarding and exhausting days of my life. I’d encourage every parent to spend as much time with their newborn as possible — if not for yourself and for your child, then for your spouse. All three of you will be learning a whole new way of life, and it’s great that you’ll be able to experience and shape it together.
I'm about to start my 12 week paternity leave next week thanks to a state program and almost everyone that I've told has had their jaws on the floor that I would even want to do that.
That's actually getting close to the amount some of the worse countries in Europe give.
To me it was a no brainer, I'm getting ~85% of my normal pay and I get to take care of my wife, our son and our newborn for 3 whole months
The only reason I could see not to do that is if that 15% would leave finances so tight you couldn't turn on the heating. But as you probably spend more that that on comminuting absolutely no brainer.
My company in the UK only gives 2 weeks paternity so most guys save and use all their holiday for the year to bring their total time off to 9 weeks.
That's actually getting close to the amount some of the worse countries in Europe give.
Wrong. Statutory paternity leave in most European countries is less than a month, with a minimum of 2 weeks or 10 working days mandated by the EU. Of course companies may decide to give you more, but that highly depends on your place of work and thus is not a fair source of comparison.
Source: just came from 14 working days of pat leave and am European. My friend who works for a different company got 2 months, part of which he's able to take at a later date (not immediately after child birth) if he so chooses.
I absolutely love that you're doing this and I think paid leave for this, child and family care up to 30 weeks should be easily doable, as well as quality education and quality affordable health care and quality, affordable food, housing, clothing and utilities. Livable wages too.
In the deceptively simple, yet seemingly complex social conundrum, you're practically insulting two or several of their generations.
You see, their daddy and granddaddy before them didn't need no paternity leave and their kids (as in themselves) turned out to be just fine! Now here you are coddling and spoiling your children rotten, proving everything wrong with the newer generations!
How can a man provide food on the table, a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs by sitting at home and playing with their kids? Unthinkable! Unconscionable! Un-American!
Or so a theory goes...
I think maternity and paternity leave should both be compulsory six months, to be taken as desired between pregnancy and 2nd birthday
I wish I had paternity leave - I feel like I missed out on so much plus it was unnecessarily difficult for my ex. Back then we only had one week. However my mother-in-law came for that week and my ex “wanted her Mom”. So I sat at home for a week doing what I could while my mother-in-law took care of my ex and kid, then week two I had to go back to work and mil had to go back home, and my ex was home alone with the baby, no support
FYI - a bit eye opening on who some feminists actually are (in a good way) - a feminist group at work used me as a poster child to demand more paternity leave.
Paternity leave is awesome, did so myself (male). Even though it was 2010 and in Europe a lot of paperwork came up because it was not my wife...
I was the first in my workplace to take paternity leave when it became law in my state. I didn't take it in one chunk, but used every single day I was entitled to. I got many similar comments as you from older guys, and I believe they came from a place of jealousy at worst and self-rationalization at best, since those people weren't afforded the same rights when they had kids.
Pay then no attention, the first few months as a dad to a new kid are some of the most important and precious moments you'll ever have, and if you miss them you will never ever get a do over. Take every second you can without an ounce of shame.
You may also find yourself setting an example, as I noticed none of the new Dads in my workplace after me had any reservations about taking their full leave, and I work in construction with some needlessly macho guys.
I did it and it never occurred to me to even ask what other people thought about it. It was a benefit available to me, so I took advantage of it. If your coworkers said that real men don't care about their teeth, would it stop you from going to the dentist? Coworkers come and go but family is for life.
Oh I had never thought to not take my leave (or care for my teeth) because of what the people around me were saying. The only person whose opinion matters about this is my wife.
I'm just absolutely dumbfounded why people would be so against something that is just plain good for them and their family? I know that's naive, I just can't comprehend it.
In Sweden each parent get 240 days of parental leave, per kid. I love our parental leave system. I'm very fortunate to be able to spend all that time with my son!
Would you be happier doing what those people did? I don't think so. But they might have been happier doing it that way. You do you, you've earned it! Enjoy the extra time with your family, you may not get another chance like this for a long time!
I'll be getting 20 days time off and on top of that I can choose between 4 months of time off if I so wish.
Other options are 1 day off for 20 months or half a day off for 40 months.
The thing I'm truly desiring from this is that the flemish government is protecting me from being fired the moment I request this extra parental leave.
If they cannot prove that they fire me for good reasons, then they'll have to pay me 6 months wage on top of the rest.
So if they are going to downsize, or whatever, they'll be less prone to pick me.
I'll take either the 20 or 40 months on this one.
My wife doesn't have a choice, she's 7 weeks pregnant now. Taking off work until 1 June. Then maternity leave starting 1 august (is what her HR said, even though internet says 6 weeks instead of 12, but perhaps it's cuz it's a physical job) until 15 weeks after the birth.
Personally I will do anything I can to make sure we have a long term source of income.
Keeping a good relationship with the place that pays me my wage will be beneficial.
I'll take a bulk of 1 or 2 weeks of paternal leave when the baby is born. Take one day off afterwards for 2 years.
If you can live on 85% then it's an awesome opportunity, and super rare in the US. I'd be trying to find something to bridge the financial gap, some under the table gig or something because I already don't make enough.
We are in a very fortunate situation. We're not well off by any means but have saved pretty well. We paid off the car last year and started putting that extra money we were paying into a seperate account which turned into our backup account to bridge that 15% gap.
I'm also pretty close with the guy who owns the corner store around the block and can usually pickup a few night shifts a week there when I need to since it's in a rough neighborhood and they haven't been able to find a steady nightshift clerk for 5 years.
We're very lucky that aspect.
I love my wife and kid, but I was ready to get outta the house after two weeks and go back to work
Not sure what this post is about, OP... What are you actually asking?
Paternity leave is obviously vital if you're a decent parent and partner. If you have it available you take it and you focus on your family. Your mentioned group of coworkers sound like fucking degenerate scumbags stuck on a pointless treadmill. I feel sorry for their partners and their children.
You should take some time to consider why you didn't have a visceral reaction of outright disgust and had to come here and ask for others to chime in. Tune in, bud. It's all about your kids now. Don't look for worthless approval from worthless people.
That's some assumption, I never said I agreed with them or was looking to take their advice or gain their approval. I said all of the things people are saying in here, I offended a few people who thought I was calling them bad dads which I never directly said, but that's their short line to draw to their own conclusion.
I more so was looking for input on the concept of paternity leave from people outside my small work circle because I thought the overwhelming hate on it was wild and for a minute felt like I was some new age radical who had just discovered the concept of taking care of your family. I knew I wasn't, but I don't hear much about it where I'm at so I figured I'd ask the general community.
Not assuming. I just didn't see you express that disgust, so even the omission says something.
IMO you need a lot more passion in your response, here and IRL to colleagues. These are obviously broken people around you. You smiling and nodding and coming here to quietly discuss away from them helps perpetuate their nonsense. Alternatively, if you had a gut reaction of "Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? How are you supporting your partner if you aren't taking that full leave? A newborn is 24/7 physical/emotional/mental gauntlet. Are you just leaving them to deal with all that, that's horrible, man... Do better." might have knocked some sense into them.
We break these toxic cycles by speaking to our peers with confidence and putting idiots on the spot by holding a mirror up to their childish bullshit. Sounds like you have the right position generally, I'm encouraging you to express it openly and forcefully to be a part of the change you seem to be in support of.
I would say that, ideally, it should be up to the businesses if they want to uphold that, though that stance should be specified at the beginning.
It should be up to businesses how parents decide to raise their newborn?
Fuck off.
Not what I said. I am saying it should be up to businesses if they want to yield to that. It strikes me as entitled to say granting the money during their leave is the only acceptable way of going about it. But excuse me for seeing that someone asked what I think of paternity leave and not answering how they might've wanted.