Tim Walz calls for scrapping of electoral college to decide US presidential race
Tim Walz calls for scrapping of electoral college to decide US presidential race
Kamala Harris’s running mate urges popular vote system but campaign says issue is not part of Democrats’ agenda
Kamala Harris’s running mate urges popular vote system but campaign says issue is not part of Democrats’ agenda
Tim Walz, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, has called for the electoral college system of electing US presidents to be abolished and replaced with a popular vote principle, as operates in most democracies.
His comments – to an audience of party fundraisers – chime with the sentiments of a majority of American voters but risk destabilising the campaign of Kamala Harris, the Democratic presidential candidate, who has not adopted a position on the matter, despite having previously voiced similar views.
"I think all of us know, the electoral college needs to go," Walz told donors at a gathering at the home of the California governor, Gavin Newsom. "We need a national popular vote. We need to be able to go into York, Pennsylvania, and win. We need to be in western Wisconsin and win. We need to be in Reno, Nevada, and win."
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but campaign says issue is not part of Democrats’ agenda
Fucking hell! Every time either of them says something truly based, some DNC lackey comes and spoils it by saying that! 🤬
And all interest in this statement was lost in record time. Even though it would help Democrats win every time, as swing states would stop being a thing, and the Democrat voters in Wyoming and Texas and every other sold-red state is now something to seriously count.
Not every time. Republicans have won the popular vote before. What would happen, though, is the Republican Party would have to adjust its platform to become more in line with the majority of Americans.
Are you aware of what is minimally required in order to pull off this kind of change? There is no outcome to this election that will result in the Democrats having even the faintest possibility of doing this.
Isn't this kind of missing the point, though? The reason neither party wants to change a thing about the current system is the whole point of abolishing the electoral college is to remove the spoiler effect that eventually leads to a two party system. If the electoral college ends, there's no such thing as swing states, gerrymandering will be moot, candidates will actually have to have policies that people want, they'll have to actually campaign, and many corporate "Democrats" will probably get outed by more progressive candidates.
There are other benefits, but I really don't see this getting any traction, regardless, until we can get money our of politics and a wealth tax that makes sense (like 70%+ on the ultra wealthy).
I agree with your sentiment that Democrat ideas -- more likely the progressive Democrat ideas -- will likely be the candidates that win the most. However, we'll likely never find out cause both parties will fight this with all of their being and financial ghouls.
It's not like Walz or Harris can do anything about it anyway. Legal scholars have said that it would take a Constitutional amendment to change the electoral college system to anything else, as it is mandated by the Constitution.
Amending the Constitution requires ratification by 75% of the 50 US states after passing a 2/3 majority of Congress.
It's best to be realistic and not get worked up about things you can't do anything about.
Not like the dnc couldn't lean hard on party representatives to make them fall in line.
This is just like all those times Republican candidates hedged about Roe v Wade… right up until they finally got it overturned. Sure, the majority of voters agree the EC is outdated and needs to go; but saying as much can scare moderates, and doesn’t get you any new liberal voters. Never forget, “undecided” voters in the US are just fickle assholes who don’t want to vote for someone who “feels” too conservative or liberal. Unfortunately, with FPTP voting, they carry a lot of weight.
For real, ENOUGH already with the milquetoast Dem leadership being so terrified of actually taking a stand about any issue.
I can understand the strategy this time
One of the big motivators for the left is that Trump has made credible threats about undermining votes and folks have signed up for it. A fear of having your voice forever silenced in the political system is a strong motivator. You can see because pundits for Trump keep trying to turn it around and say "nuh uh, the Democrats are the ones that will take away your voice", which generally rings hollow because there's zero history or rhetoric in the Democratic party to even suggest that.
This could be the sort of rhetoric those Republicans have been wanting. A Democrat proposing a fundamental change to the biggest election that everyone knows would usually prevent a Republican win for that office. We wouldn't have had either Republican president in the last 30 years. This could energize scared Republicans or feed the "but both sides" distraction.
It may make tons of sense, but it's a huge risk of scaring people to vote against Democrats that might have otherwise sat it out.
It is the single most logical and devastating blow that the democratic party could work on to stop fascism.
Disallow corporate entities from owning residential property.
Increase minimum wage.
Break up monopolies and oligopolies to reintroduce competition. Get off this "stop price gouging greedflation" horse shit. Break up monopolies and oligopolies, lower the bar to competition.
End forced arbitration outright.
Set a maximum document length limit to stop frivolous lawsuits, "drowning in paperwork".
Set term limits for all govt positions, especially SCOTUS.
Harsher punishments to corporations. No more of these fines that are simply the cost of doing business. C suite execs should do time on behalf of law breaking 'corpirate citizens.'
Tax the fuck of our anything making over $100M in profit. I mean, the fuck out of it.
I agree with all of this and I think many people on Lemmy do as well. My concern is: Will the population that is excited to vote for candidates that are willing to push these changes through have the staying power?
These are huge changes to a system that has been manipulated to benefit a small group of well connected, very powerful, very wealthy people. It's not something that can change in one or even two presidential terms. These are changes that will take many election cycles to complete. These, and other big changes, need sustained focus.
Not saying it can't be done - it can. The republican party has proven that. Over the course of 40+ years they have reshaped America to fit their ideals. But it took 40 years. One part of how they did it was/is by keeping the pressure on their voting base even during non-election years through FOX news, rush limbaugh, alex jones, and other pieces of shit. So when it was time to vote their base was already "educated" on why they had to vote for the republican candidate. It made/makes it easy for the republican candidate to step in and just say the right words and phrases to the voting population and they were guaranteed a certain % of the vote.
So if the left wants to re-shape how America looks and how it treats it's population then they have to be willing to play the long game.
I agree with everything here except the concept that there's such a thing as a non-election year, which is a big part of the reason the engagement discrepancy you're talking about exists in the first place.
The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house
The candidates have to work hard to get and keep voters excited, no backpedaling on platforms.
I'd be okay with execs and board members doing community service for first offense, if it means picking up trash on roadways, working in nursing facilities, harvesting crops, and other things Joe and Jane Average would be doing for community service.
Disallow corporate entities from owning residential property.
And tax the shit out of second (and third and beyond) home owners. If you don't reside there it is absolutely a luxury. Nobody on the face of this Earth needs more than one dwelling.
There are reasons for owning one or two more houses. Maybe you just moved and need to sell the second house, or maybe you got a house for a friend or relative. Still think the tax is good, but should be applied to the fourth house and up unless you are renting to someone.
And none of this happens until we ditch the two party system. Because the Dems will just continue to do the bare minimum to win elections while still serving the billionaire class.
CGP Grey calculated it @ 22%
Well technically the 'minimum' has almost no bottom. One tortured example, if you had a single voter per state for the biggest 11 states all vote for one candidate, but every other one of the 118 million eligible voters in other states voted the other way, then those 11 people will win.
Watched it. The video is 12 years old, and the article I shared is 8yrs old. I am tempted to do the calculations myself with current numbers, but I am excelled out for the day.
I was showing my 3yo how to run a DOE with his hotwheels track and the cars that work best current tests are on mass. The favorite mass is 29-32g/car to complete the track. The range is 10g-43g/ car. Below those masses, they fly off the track most of the time. Above those masses, they fail around 1st to 2nd loop.
Still have about 10 cars to test.Next steps measure wheel base, length, thickest section, car height, and running in reverse vs forward. Finally time trials.
I think at this point pretty much everyone I've ever talked to thinks the electoral college is bullshit. Even my dad and he's a trumper.
Well one doesn't necessary need to get rid of electoral college, if the electors were appointed by proportional vote and representation. At that point it would be just a smudging filter. National popular vote with extra steps and some added in accuracy due to one being able to do so much proportionality given how many electors there is.
So the main problem is not electoral college, but the voting method. Just as note since also getting rid of electoral college isn't a fix, if the direct popular election uses bad voting method. Like say nationwide plurality vote would be horrible replacement for electoral college.
Though I would assume anyone suggesting popular vote would mean nationwide majority win popular vote. Though that will demand a "fail to reach majority" resolver. Be it a two round system (second round with top two candidates, thus guaranteed majority result) or some form of instant run-off with guaranteed majority win after elimination rounds.
TLDR: main problem I winner take all plurality, first past the post more than the technicality of there existing such bureaucratic element as electors and electoral votes.
Let’s not forget the unfair ratio of citizens to electoral votes across the different states. California, for instance, is on the low end of electoral vote fraction per citizen compared to smaller states. That absolutely needs to be fixed as well.
For sure. It's definitely a multi layer problem and our voting system is trash. We'll always be stuck with a two party system as long as we stick with first past the post. And as long as we are stuck with two choices it will always be a shit show of "us vs them." But at the same time the electoral college only makes things worse. I live in a very red area of the US even though I disagree with 70% of what they believe in. And even though I vote, I know for a fact that my vote literally means nothing outside of the popular vote. And it's pretty disheartening to know that. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me that don't even vote because they think it doesn't matter so why even bother.
I won't lie and say the solution or the problem are super easy. I'm just saying it's fucked and definitely needs to change. And I'm a strong advocate for a two round system or something similar so people don't have to just vote against the candidate they don't want.
Why can't we end it then.
We are all slaves to the ruling class until this is done.
Which was the point of the EC in the first place:
There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections.
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-10-02-0065
I think we can mostly agree that the electoral college system is not working as intended. It was designed to give people outside the cities an extra boost to their representation, But it was certainly never designed to let fascism take hold.
Unfortunately there's no such thing as a fair and representative voting system. In all their cases you either end up underrepresenting the rural, over representing the rural, or forcing people to pick between candidates that they don't want.
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly down with what walls is calling for as it gives my intentions the best chance and at the same time will keep fascism from just popping in because they're good at propaganda. But I'd still like to see some other way.
I always hear that excuse about the rural areas not being represented without the electoral college, but my only reaction is GOOD. Rural areas are large in land ans small in people. Why should they get an equal voice as a Metropolitan area with the majority of people? A government is supposed to reflect the will of the people. The not ALL the people, that would be impossible, but but an average of the majority of the people.
Additionally, the government at the federal level has relatively minor impact at the local level. The federal level is broad strokes, the local government is fine strokes, and the state level is somewhere in between. Rural dwellers can run their local government however they like as long as it doesn't violate state or federal laws.
And so we'll remain until we can also get rid of the two party system. This would be a good start, but we also need to change our voting system to anything but this awful first-past-the-post system.
Recall also need to be universal, and vacancies not appointed.
Maybe I'm to clinical but I think this means the petty bourgeois is a safe bet for the ruler class. That needs to change.
Removing the electoral college does nothing to change our two party system so I don't understand why you think it solves billionaire class rule.
It absolutely does. Without Republicans gerrymandering everything to stay in the fold, they're completely done. They'll get bodied every election. The last time the Republicans won the popular vote was 20 years ago, and the party has radically changed since then.
Hopefully undoing the electoral college is the first step to dismantling the two party system.
You think the midwest will have any say in what happens in the USA without it?
All the campaigns will spend time in NY, California, Texas, and nearby states. Campaign money goes where the votes go. Then government spending goes where the votes are.
Coroprations will own the midwest while farms exist, and care not about voting because their lobbying is paying the ad spend on the coasts.
This is a deep issue. The founders may have been white (mostly, remember hamilton isnt an opera) and flawed but they werent stupid.
All the campaigns will spend time in NY, California, Texas, and nearby states.
As opposed to spending all their time in cities in swing states like they currently do? The EC is an abysmal failure at preventing candidates from ignoring huge swaths of the country. Fuck the EC. What is even dumber about the EC, is that basically every other office in the US counts all votes equally, and yet this isn't a problem at the state/local level.
One person, one vote. We are all born equal, all votes should be equal. Nobody is more deserving of a voice than any other.
Coroprations will own the midwest while farms exist, and care not about voting because their lobbying is paying the ad spend on the coasts.
That's already the case.
Campaign money goes where the votes go. Then government spending goes where the votes are.
You mean to say, power will be more evenly distributed per person instead of per acre?
I’m ok with this.
so what? We're talking about a national vote for president. Your specific voice gets heard through local elections, not the president. Every person should have an equal vote. Period.
The flip side is that people who live in states with a big land area but relatively small population have a way oversized vote compared to people who live in high population states. Why should a small number of people in the Midwest be able to outvote the majority?
I want my devalued vote back. Any other rationalization is an assault on “one person one vote”.
While I agree with him, it’s also a stupid thing to say out loud during the election when they’re CLEARLY trying to sway moderate and uneasy right leaning voters.
I think the electoral college has become pretty unpopular with pretty much everyone except committed republicans in recent years
Exactly, the result is decided but free starts and for example Republicans in California and New York feel their vote doesn't matter at all.
Maybe they're finally realizing that instead of chasing right wing voters they should try to tap into the much larger pool of left-wing voters. Or at least one can hope.
His comments – to an audience of party fundraisers – chime with the sentiments of a majority of American voters
I guess you missed this bit
I think I want him to be president.
That would fit the pattern (provided Harris wins) Obama/Biden -> Biden/Harris -> Harris/Walz -> Walz/??
Maybe.
Walz really is the ideal politician but he might be rough around the edges after 8 years. He already looks a bit older than what he is and I don't consider his speaking to be quite as good as Harris's. It would preferential if we started looking towards building up younger politicians within the party with people like Walz providing support.
Rank choice voting for all federal elections
Approval/STAR*
I also highly recommend this analysis of STAR and RCV
Even if we keep the electoral college as a means of allocating points we need to get rid of the electors. I've been saying this since before Jan 6th 2021.
The electoral college is good for one thing and one thing only: boosting confidence that election fraud in one place won't impact the result of the election.
Winner takes all was always stupid and needs to be replaced with proportional allocation, preferably with a more direct ratio to the actual population of votes. Basically, everyone doing what Nebraska and Maine do.
It's also really good for making sure that whoever wins the most acres of land gets a huge electoral boost. Because that's important.
what if we make a compromise on the land area, say 3/5?
It’s also really good for making sure that whoever wins the most acres of land gets a huge electoral boost. Because that’s important.
Is it? The most disproportionate representation in the EC belongs to the people of Delaware, last time I ran the numbers of EC votes per capita.
State population is all that matters. Very small populations still get an EC vote for each Senator, which is the root of the problem.
Cool. Not going to happen, but…. Cool.
Yeah, it's a hopeless quest. Truly eliminating the EC would require 3/4 of state legislatures, an almost impossible task when the majority of states would be effectively voting against their self-interest.
Effectively neutering the EC only requires that the states with 50% of the EC votes agree to follow the national popular vote. But, it would be a fragile detente, since any state legislature could back out and break it.
It still sends a message. Which in and of itself is good.
It surprises me how many people still don't know about the NPVIC
Finally!
Tim Walz is 100% correct. Dump the out dated Electoral College.
I wish Walz was at the top of the ticket.
I'd eagerly vote for him, as opposed to skeptically voting for Harris.I don’t get the downvotes, I’m in a similar position and I’m sure so mang others are as well.
You wish they were at the top of the ticket and you would eagerly vote for him so i guess you agree with him that "the expansion of Israel and its proxies is an absolute, fundamental necessity for the United States to have the steady leadership there"
Watch Trump win the electoral college again and Democrats not use that as a rallying point to abolish it.
Don't worry. As soon as Waltz said an overwhelmingly positive thing, Kamala distanced herself from it.
Yawn…..
Probably not the popular opinion, but I think EC is important to America being what it is & as large as it is. From Wikipedia:
The electoral college is fundamental to American federalism, in that it requires candidates to appeal to voters outside large cities, and increases the political influence of more rural states. Whether by design or accident, one of its effects is to help prevent a tyranny of the majority that would ignore the less densely populated heartland and rural states in favor of the mega-cities
Imo without the EC, the Democrats would just roll the elections and the entire Republican party would have to pivot. Serving the rural / conservative view would be a losing strategy. Then resentment would grow that a big cultural force in America no longer has any say
Rural states have a large advantage in the house, huge advantage in the senate, and of course significant skew in the electoral college. And much of it comes from compromises with slave owners.
Abolishing the EC would not mean rural regions get completely ignored, not only would they have reps and senators still courting their votes (and campaign donations), civilized countries with functional democracies have multiple parties. A rural party would show up, which could court voters in all rural areas, instead of only in swing states.And to expand on what you said, they wouldn't be spending all their time in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, and Georgia. They would likely visit every state to hoover up as many votes as they could. It would also give a voice to those who live in heavy red or blue places who don't vote because they feel their vote is meaningless (it's not. Get out and vote anyway).
Don't conservatives resent democrats either way? They have so much of an advantage through the EC that the democrats have to go liberal+progressive big tent, but still they complain/fear the amount of non-whites and atheists in big cities.
Also don't black americans + lgbt also resent their underrepresentation? Why should rural white populations get to speak over them? Just because historically that's been the case and we don't want to hurt their feelings?
Say it ain't so... the Republican party would need to become more attractive to moderate conservatives and be less alienating? What a travesty that would be.
Conservativism, as it exists in modern America, is simply a fringe belief that only survives because of our broken ass election system that forces us into two parties.
One, the Republican party needs to pivot, or die, frankly. They've gone so far down the fascist rabbit hole at this point that they're a danger to the very fabric of this country. Perhaps if they couldn't get away with chiefly appealing to a minority of this country, that would push them to do so.
Two, the idea of the current system serving the rural/urban divide is a complete lie. Do you think the people of Kern County, CA are served by the electoral college? Do you think the people of San Antonio, TX are? No, they are completely and utterly ignored because they happen to be in states that vote the other way. To say nothing of the fact that the people who generally do vote with their state are ignored almost as much, because they can be taken for granted.
If you want every American to count, then you need to count every American. And if that upsets some people who have gotten used to welding outsized power over the rest of us and now think that's their birthright, oh fucking well.
So your plan is to hand power to the minority of people? And you think we should agree to this minoritarianism, because the rural / conservative view holders would get resentful?
Why don't we just hand the country back to the indigenous people and let them, an even bigger minority than the rurals, run shit for a while?
Anyway "rural / conservative view"s are already represented in their communities, towns, cities, and states. By their local, city, and state governments.
And by your "logic" shouldn't all those conservative counties that vote red be forced to give greater weight to their liberal residents, yah know so their liberal voices aren't drowned out and they suddenly become resentful or something.
I'm completely on board with letting indigenous rule for a while.
I used to agree, and perhaps that concept made more sense in the 18th century when the urban/rural divide was not nearly as stark and separate.
The same goes with the Senate. I have no problem with it in concept, but unless we can also have a House that is actually proportionally representative, then it doesn't really make sense.
Resentment grows either way.
They give you a bag of snakes and demand you reach in and pick one. Both will kill you with a single bite. It really doesn't matter which you pick when they control your choices in the first place. I refuse to vote, it will make no difference if Harris wins or Trump, the loosing party will do everything in their power to defeat everything the winner tries to do for good, unless they can profit from it. It will just be more of the internal civil war over money. Our leaders will get richer, corporations will get tax cuts and the people will PAY!
I don't think it's fair to say both snakes in that bag are equally bad. Sure they might both kill you, but one of them will give you a horrific, painful death.
They both will, one will take longer and you medical attention is denied either way.
Normally I would agree, but it seems riskier this time around to have that mindset. Trump and his people want to do some serious damage and I believe that they will put in all the effort they can to do it.
It's actually scary this time round
It's scary every time around. This attitude is what got us someone who stalled on even admitting climate change was a thing for almost a decade instead of Al Gore in 2000. Like sure not as fraught as now but imagine being a decade ahead on implementing green policies even if those policies were watered down.
k
It's really like their own little game. We are just the peices. Neither party is working for us. They just work for themselves. But they have split up the issues to make sure the majority of the people have something to hate. And to play their game they need to do things to keep that hate going. So which one wins determines which hate will get applied. So your vote matters on that plane.
Yay anti American vice presidential candidate!
How is proposing a change to our electoral system “anti-American”?
Was it “anti-American” to want to end slavery? After all, it was a part of our country’s systemic history.
Was it “anti-American” to give women the right to vote? The constitution pretty clearly didn’t give them that right.
Yay anti American comment!
Tell us you don't know what you're talking about without actually telling us.
Explain.
They can't lol they don't know what they are talking about, they don't know what Walz is actually talking about. It is typical low-information knee-jerk ignorance (it is how they stay maga without getting a permanent headache)
