Scientists push new paradigm of animal consciousness, saying even insects may be sentient
Scientists push new paradigm of animal consciousness, saying even insects may be sentient
Far more animals than previously thought likely have consciousness, top scientists say in a new declaration — including fish, lobsters and octopus.
Far more animals than previously thought likely have consciousness, top scientists say in a new declaration — including fish, lobsters and octopus.
Bees play by rolling wooden balls — apparently for fun. The cleaner wrasse fish appears to recognize its own visage in an underwater mirror. Octopuses seem to react to anesthetic drugs and will avoid settings where they likely experienced past pain.
All three of these discoveries came in the last five years — indications that the more scientists test animals, the more they find that many species may have inner lives and be sentient. A surprising range of creatures have shown evidence of conscious thought or experience, including insects, fish and some crustaceans.
That has prompted a group of top researchers on animal cognition to publish a new pronouncement that they hope will transform how scientists and society view — and care — for animals.
Nearly 40 researchers signed “The New York Declaration on Animal Consciousness,” which was first presented at a conference at New York University on Friday morning. It marks a pivotal moment, as a flood of research on animal cognition collides with debates over how various species ought to be treated.
Considering that as sentient beings ourselves, we don't really even understand sentience, it's kinda bold to assume we've got a monopoly on it.
Similarly I wonder how much of the observation is projection. We don't know what the bee thinks it's getting out of rolling the ball around, we don't know that the fish was actually reacting to seeing itself. At some level we're assuming that's what's going on because it makes sense to us.
We are limited by our own understanding and imagination, but I don't know any other explanation for silly little nonproductive activities other than "play". Is it because it is play, or is it beyond our understanding? We can't communicate with them, but we can draw parallels between their behaviors and our own natural behaviors.
With a couple of perfect millennia of perfect human development and advances in all fields, we probably wouldn't think of these versions of ourselves as more or less sentient than other thing populating Earth.
Sure, they paint caves & make 10s videos, but that's just natural automation, a response to environment, simply not knowing better.
What was obvious to most of us as kids (and what was attempted to be beaten out of us as kids) is now being accepted by scientists. Love it.
Right, I had no idea scientists were trying to say these animals weren't sentient. Stupid scientists.
It's not really that they all thought they didn't, it's that there was a lack of evidence to declare it to likely be true. Better testing methodology to exclude other possible explanations have contributed.
I dunno about all that, but I used to have an African fish that would always get the zoomies when I'd come home from work. He'd spit water at me or gravel at the glass to get my attention, and loved playing hide and seek and always brushed up on my hands when I was working on his tank. He never reacted this way to visitors, just me.
Exactly this.
And to get to this you need experience, research, and knowledge.
And trying to explain this to humans in general would take several generations in best case scenario (much less actually doing/changing anything with that knowledge).
Usually anything attacking the doctrine of how extra super special & way more unique than other equally unique species are is meet with severe (auto-?)hostility.
Even without our status in question, just the "threat" of something being slightly less/differently inferior to us is immediately attacked by the vast majority.
And once we decide something is inferior to us it takes extra effort to change the popular belief (like racism between humans as well - just designate some human as non-human & they are considered about as much as billions of yeast bacteria as we are baking bread).
It seems odd to me that this article is framing octopodes as a surprising inclusion. Aren't they generally known to be some of the most intelligent animals of all?
Wasn’t this already obvious?
We don’t even know what sentience/sapience/whatever is. We have some thoughts, people argue about the definitions, and stuff; but really… it all comes down to… “are they like us”… but we don’t even really know what that means.
So no. It’s not obvious. (Particularly because humans are surprisingly stupid.)
To people who spend a lot of time around animals or even sea creatures, it may be obvious that they’re more like us than most would assume.
To put it another way, humans just aren't that special. We started from the assumption that we are somehow fundamentally different
We keep finding out that all sorts of animals have language and culture, and it blows my mind that apparently, just about everything seems to have something akin to a name
Not to people indoctrinated by Abrahamic religions.
Denying such things in other animals has been part of a long-standing, mainly Western, push for human exceptionalism
Yes.
My first, second, third and fourth thought. I didn’t have a fifth.
I mean people have been pushing for recognition of this for at least a few thousand years so I'd say yes.
The lengths people are willing to go in self delusion for a burger are astounding though.
This is self evident to any animal lover
It's self evident to anyone not plagued by speciesism, regardless of their feelings about animals; I don't think we ought to allow that much latitude to opt-out of the obvious moral consequences of this truth.
This reads like "scientists find that women have emotions and feeling and can feel pain"
Ofc they are sentient.
I fail to understand why do we will push the 'no expression of the face means no intelligence or emotions bcs most of us communicate that way'.
It always turns out that whatever brain mechanics we think of as our own we later & with minimal research find in other animals as well.
Evolutionary speaking too, same brain centres (with various density and relative size - of which we dont have all that dense brains & and most parts are underdeveloped), it's absolutely unlikely we would have developed something new in a few millions of years (especially given smol & fragmented populations facing extinctions and smol gene pools - tho that could be interpreted the other way too). It's just specialisation, some (advantageous) functions grew, other were optimised to the point of non-existence.
Then again, given how intolerant are we to our own species in terms of our emotional response to slight visual differences (I mean vcompletely evolutionary, uncanny valley thing, the next village of humanoids might have been competing for the same resources, which makes different culture/colours/face shapes = danger, etc), how we choose to ignore compassion (like 'look at that idiot, ofc they have no feelings, not unlike me, the superior being') ... ofc we can't immediately recognise and understand what and how animals are feeling. It takes a lot of time, effort, & empathy (mechanical empathy, like to fully underhand their environment from their pov, and emotional empathy, how they are processing that environment).
And the bigger the difference and habitats, the harder it is (like any sea animal really). Anything non-mammal seems alien to us, no matter the smarts (eg cuttlefish, that can clearly experience psychological trauma on individual and population/cultural level).
And then there are fungi. After that plants. And whatever we choose bacteria to be (like beings, or just a literal matter of environment we live within). Etc :).
Insects don't really have brains. The complexity of their ganglia is not really comparable to what we consider a brain and seems rather unlikely that they have anything like our consciousness, just due to the difference in complexity. Does not mean we should treat them like shit, they are living creatures - but also not sure why we need to pretend they are something they are clearly not.
Jumping spiders show some level of consciousness. They're intelligent predators that heavily use their sight to identify prey. They can recognise different prey types, learn their behaviours and adjust hunting strategies accordingly. A good example is how they are able to recognise when certain prey is acting odd, deduce it's injured and drop their stealthy approach for a more direct one. They're also capable of remembering their environment and using indirect and often complex paths to sneak up on prey.
Scientists have even observed them "dreaming", which is likely when they do the information processing required for such comparatively complex behaviours https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/jumping-spiders-dream-rem-sleep-study-suggests
Yes, I agree, in just pointing out how difficult is to understand that. Theoretically, it's not like a human-level intelligent insect couldn't exist.
My thinking to challenge myself/ourselves: Then how do whole colonies decide and plan resources? When to gave truce or war with the neighbouring colonies (of same or completely different species?). Their war strategies resemble human wars without technology/weapons. They also cultivate insects, plants, and fungi. Some within colonies plan, deceive, and try to develop a new queen (instead of the queen doing it in purpose/strategy).
Having brains as such imho is part of the problem as it adds a lot of complexity for humans to relate to.
But even our brains don't work and govern alone, major organs have a complex nervous systems of their own (complex in the sense of not having a centre).
Not as a direct comparison to insect, but eg cephalopod brains are also vastly different, yet clearly highly intelligent.
This doesn't explain complex behavior seen in many insects like how bumblebees can learn how to solve puzzles from watching other bees performing the solution (this requires a minimal degree of visual recognition of the same species, theory of mind to understand they have a goal and what it is, recognition of their actions and the ability to translate them to copy them, etc).
Having a drastically different structure to their neurons doesn't mean they can't think.
So arrogant are we
I've always thought this, and thought it strange we assumed other creatures experienced lesser levels of sentience.
Vegans are well aware of this phenomenon.
People will tend to wave away atrocities by saying the victims "can't feel it" or "don't know what's going on."
We see it all the time in things like the treatment of indigenous people and the mutilation of baby's genitals.
I think it's fair to assume they experience a "lesser" level of sentience. People just assume it's a lot more lesser than it is
I don't even think this to be honest, seems like an absurd humanist position
This raises some interesting questions. The premise of these scientists is that consciousness can be quantified empirically. Yet many of the tests described in this article can be passed by machines. Does that mean that the scientists who signed the declaration consider some smart devices to demonstrate consciousness? And what are the implications?
These arguments never make much sense because there's no broadly accepted philosophical consensus on what sentience is.
I agree with this. I've read the statement that the scientists wrote and I honestly could not figure out what they are trying to say. I just don't see how any of the tests they reference would challenge the idea that we don't know how to define or test consciousness.
Sentience is not necessarily the same thing but its in a similar place. It may be possible to test depending on the definition.
I'd hazard the guess they don't, and it's easy to justify it - our current AIs don't have the internal aparatus needed to develop counsciousness (yet). They're way too simple and way too straightforward to be intelligent, whether intelligence is an emergent property or a fundamental structure.
IS veganism the real solution here, or is the real solution the all-artificial, all-synthetic diet? Me personally, I'm going to down this jug of red 40, and then I think I'll get back to you
If it ever comes out that plants are sentient and feel pain my moral compass is going to have a bad day.
I'm not even a vegetarian ... but I have tried to eat less meat in recent years, in part because of the cruelty.
Im pretty sure i have read articles about study finding that show certain trees can communicate distress via pheromones or something when under attack by insects that strip their leaves and some plants give off a very faint 'noise' when they are dehydrated or distressed.
Me too. I still eat cheese but no more meats. Regardless of the sentient thing, it's good for you to not eat meat.
Plants are autotrophs in that they create their own energy from the sun with the help of microbes in soils to supply nutrients to enable plants to do so.
Imo, the closer we can descend on the food chain to autotrophic nutrition, the better for all.
Of course, all of this has to be taken in balance. There needs to be a healthy discussion between domesticated and wilded lands.
But much research has been published showing that if the world moved to primarily plant-based/vegan/herbivore/autotrophic diets, then we'd quickly move to living inside of our planet's boundaries which we aren't now. Think about rewilding corn fields or wheat fields or soy fields and still having enough food left over to feed the entire population.
#govegan
Welllllll.... What if you found out that every time you cut into a plant, it let out a high pitched scream that humans can't hear?
https://www.sciencealert.com/plants-really-do-scream-out-loud-we-just-never-heard-it-until-now
Veganism is the solution, yes.
Future generations will look back on us like we were crazy and barbaric for eating meat.
I agree that veganism is/could be a good solution moving forward. I strongly disagree that eating meat can be considered barbaric, as it is completely natural and present in every corner of the animal kingdom. Now, how we treat the animals we get that meat from is absolutely barbaric and should be considered so, but I don't think meat eating itself should be villainized, at least in a retrospective sense.
Nah, synthetic food (and eventually discarding our gross meat shells for silicon and metal bodies) is the rightful path. On the way there, veganism is a nice stop-gap for most people.
I thought this should be obvious to anyone who's interacted with an animal, ever. But sadly there are a great many people who don't agree there is a 'soul behind the tv screen' as it were with animals more primitive than things like cats and dogs. It can be easy to use to justify human cruelty.
And it's easy for you to say it's obvious and you've thought that all along. You're not the demographic they're trying to inform.
I found that too many people who call themselves a dog person because they are terrible with animals. Dogs have been bred to put up with us. But give them a dog that's either bred for a specific task, or one that is a bit feral and they'll say the dog is difficult. It isn't, the owner is just incompetent.
I'm no dog or cat person. It's easier for me to name the animals I hate (damn mosquito's). I get along with most animals, even instant-swatting cats labelled as difficult. Only because I respect their boundaries. And I've stuck my hand behind a fence to pet a pitbull more often than a sane person would consider healthy.
I think that pet breeding should be banned and only allowed by veterinairy instances, universities and animal shelters. Imagine if people couldn't buy a pet on a whim? Imagine if they had to order in advance and get certified they know how to take care of one? We'd have less animal cruelty, and less strays.
Also, sheep are underrated pets. Holy damn they are social. They are basically a walking pillow and love scratches behind the horns. And wag their tail when happy. Same for rats. I say rats are more suitable as pets than dogs. Social, fun, trainable (be warned of the lazy males), don't bite, love cuddles, and you don't need to castrate them to "keep their fun behaviour." You do have to remove the ovaria as it makes female rats prone to cancer otherwise.
I'm gonna have to pass on the sheep, well at least the males. We had one, as a companion to a horse, and the damn thing would head butt us half the time and try to hump us the other. We had to carry a stick in just to feed it, or risk ending up with a line of spooge down our backs. It wasn't right.
Rats, on the other hand, are great pets. More people should give rats a chance.
I'm a dog person because between cats and dogs, I lack respect for cats. Yes they are cute and soft and sometimes cuddly. It's not worth the ammonia smell everywhere and the scratching me when they come to me for pets, or the biting, clawing furniture, etc. Mostly the pee in the house.
I've done the things like changing the litter box and using new litter frequently. I've given them off limits spaces so they aren't bothered. I've done the things and more. My daughter still has a cat downstairs. I'm not a jerk to the cat, but I just don't like cats. I'll pet, hold, play, etc. Cats are simply not a favorite for me.
Dogs... Ok the other hand.. Obnoxious playful dopey friends that can learn cool things. Big cuddle bugs is what they are.
Be that as it may, wasps can still fuck right off.
Will we now treat them as well as other clearly sentient animals like pigs?
There is no way I'm clicking on that link
You might be thinking of Sapience.
Sentience means capable of logic and reason. Bare bones perception qualifies. Sapience means wise or learned. Pigs are both.
In the 17th century, the French philosopher René Descartes argued that animals were merely “material automata” — lacking souls or consciousness.
I believe we're all "material automata." The mistake isn't thinking animals are more primitive than they are, but thinking we are more sophisticated than we are. We're nothing special.
The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?
Jeremy Bentham, 1789
I'd be tempted to go and say "no shit," but even the most obvious things have to be proven or tested. How you define consciousness can also change a lot.
Sometimes I confuse Sentient and Sapient in sentences but they actually don't mean the same thing at all.
not surprising, I remember watching spider move when I was a kid and thinking they were obviously intelligent. sure they creep me out but I hate killing them for no reason, same with literally any other living thing
That's true, spider man was pretty sentient in his movie
In my opinion the idea of animal conscious has been fairly well supported for decades at minimum. There was a certain anti-consciousness orthodoxy in the animal behavior field that held back understanding of this topic. But I mean simple observation of animal behavior and the similar nervous structures surely leave animal consciousness the most likely explanation, even if it’s difficult to definitively prove.
A more interesting question in my mind is whether plants are conscious. This is a question that we truly have no idea how to answer.
The idea that turned me into a vegetarian is the realization that my pets most definitely had personalities, and what is a person if not something with a personality?
I might not be able to have a complex discussion about shared interests with them, but there are plenty of humans you can say the same thing about, and I'm still not going to eat them, or be okay with them being tortured from birth to execution.
Yeah, well I'm still not sorry I put out ant traps.
Edit: The downvoters have clearly never had an ant infestation in their kitchen. It's not a 'live and let live' situation.
Ants are also fairly well documented to be on the level of sophisticated biological robots. Death spirals/ant mills are a common occurrence because of this. There are arguments for some insects but ants are not one of them
No fucking shit... anyone with half a brain and a minimum of empathy already knows that.
Yes, yes, the scientific method doesn't discriminate between what is and isn't obvious, but the headline is, as usual, aimed at people with the intellectual capabilities of a 4 year old.
Anything being that has a sense of self and other has a level of conscious awareness.
damn, guess i'm more comparable to a goldfish than is reasonably conceivable to the average person.
I always instinctively knew it and that's why i love animals so much. My son was born just like me, with a love and respect of all creatures, even insects (Beside mosquitoes and flies because these can really eat all my electric tapper)
The new paradigm is coming
Some journalusts are dumb again. Sentient != sapient. Sapient is conscious.
Sentient != sapient. Sapient is conscious.
Sorry, you have it backwards.
Sentient means conscious or able to feel, from the same Latin root as "sensory".
Sapient means wise or intelligent, from the same Latin root as "sage".
That’s not what Kurt Cobain told me.
Go. Vegan.
Yup. Species is an insane line to justify killing over. It's not who can breed with whom, or how somebody looks that matters, it's is there a 'them'.
Or just enjoy being at the top of the food chain, just don't morally waffle about it, own it. Be into suffering
The idea that humans are at the top of the food chain is largely disputed. On a global level we are at about the same trophic level as anchovies.
The thing that makes the most sense to me is some combination of like animism and panpsychism. Then it doesn't matter what may or may not be conscious, basically treat anything like it might be to the most practical level. Though I realize this is crazy talk to most people.
For example, don't destroy stuff and cause what might be harm just for the hell of it.
- Don't kill a plant because someone called it a "weed"
- A person using the wood of a tree for warmth, cooking, survival is part of the cycles of the planet. A corporation destroying forests so those in charge of it can skim profits is not.
- Thank the plants and animals that gave their lives for your food, shelter, and things, and don't waste their lives.
- Maybe you have a piece of furniture that has history and has been in the family. Maybe it has some sort of spirit we can only partially understand. Maybe spirits come into being sometimes, when an object is built with love, such a a baby is made, or when someone builds a nice table. Destroying that table is more than simply the breaking of wood, it's the loss of a history, a being. A materialist view of the world is so limiting.
You had me up until furniture souls.
The mentioning of panpsychism didn’t make you stop?!
Yeah, leaving it at don't casually throw away stuff that cost a plant or animal life would have been fine 😂