Adopting is great. Not everyone should do it.
Autism is difficult. Their lives are not ruined.
I can see some of the arguments of antinatalists but the online culture of it seems to have a nihilism/blackpill problem.
It's autism, not a death sentence.
To me, it seems like online discussions for any stance, has to turn to it's most extreme. It's like their way or highway type of deal. Whatever happened to nuanced discussion, I wonder.
I think it stems from the more difficult cases, and people failing to realize the actual suffering that comes with that.
As with all extremes, a lot of emotions are involved. People who see / experience the hardships don't feel heard. As the general tendency is that one needs to be alive and that this is good, this hurts people who do not want to live (like this).
Going to a lot of trouble to conceive, and bringing triple the amount of possible suffering that people experience can be felt as worse than a death sentence. Therefore people feel the need to be vocal about this.
But in the end I agree, there is nuance. But there is the extreme as well, which weighs heavier here?
Why do they think autism is some sort of horror story where kids suffer in agony or something?
Autism Speaks played a huuuge part in making that the dominant narrative about autism for the past 20 years or so.
In the 00s (maybe early 10s?) one of the videos they made for parents of newly diagnosed children had a parent talking about how she was considering driving off a bridge to kill herself and her autistic child, but didn't because her non-autistic child was also in the car. This was presented as totally normal and just a way to prepare for how an autistic child will ruin your life.
I had no idea that existed. Wtf
Malicious misinformation is nothing new I guess.
very sane behaviour regarding your child.
When that kind of parents how their autistic child is very difficult and that it keeps getting worse I am always feeling like : Karen, only 10 % of your kid issues are caused by his autism, the 90% are 100% because you treat him like shit and he is turbo-traumatized
Suicide is one of the top three causes of death for autistic people. The other two are heart disease and epilepsy complications, and on average we die under 50 years of age.
What they don't understand though is that the suicide part isn't caused by autism. It's caused by people being horrible to each other. Or in other words: people with autism die because people without it make living hell for them.
It's also the 2nd leading cause of death for 2SLGBTQ+ youth:
The Trevor Project’s 2022 National Survey on LGBTQ Youth Mental Health found that 45% of LGBTQ youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year, including more than half of transgender and nonbinary youth.
So there's a lot more suffering in general for anyone basically not white, straight, (and depending on circumstances, male). Autism isn't a death sentence. While people with severe autism struggle a lot more than most, they can have very good fulfilling lives. Source: My daughter (23) has (moderate) autism and her best friend (23) has severe.
It's a mix of the ABA industry, early researchers and socio-environmental issues.
Early researchers cultivate the myth of the normative human. Autists were an altered version of human that has to be corrected. If a human wasn't corrected to match the norm, it could not be happy in life and will suffer it's entire life.
So autists have to be corrected (we know it's false) to be happy whatever the means. It ended with electric shock and others stuffs seen during WW2. This is how ABA was created. It relies on the fears of autists not being happy until they are corrected.
ABA, PBT and all the others acronyms has built an industry worth a lot of money. They finance more research on the field with huge standard, COI and consent issues among others. They need to keep the fear in the population to keep the business up.
The third is the new way to see autism. The struggles of autists are mostly socio-environmental. It means that issues aren't the person and autism. It's a lack of acceptance of the diversity by the neurological majority. It implies discrimination, patronizing, and violence against autists.
Taking a quick look at the comments I see we're back to 2000s autism speaks bullshit.
Autistic people aren't suffering unless you're putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
Autistic people aren't suffering unless you're putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
Ah, I see you're familiar with society as well.
I mean, let's face it, I've seen one meme where autism is described as a condition where everyone else around them has a disorder where they say things they don't mean, where they don't care about structure, fail to focus strictly on singular topics, have unreliable memories, drop weird hints and stare creepily into eyeballs. And the people with autism are the ones with the disorder, because there are way more of the others.
Yes most autistic people shouldn't suffer if we dismantle the oppressive societal constructs and stigma around the condition and treat them as human.
Most people shouldn't suffer if we break down the social constructs and stigma around them, from race, gender and sex, class, and many other factors.
Antinatalism is not about selectively culling autistic people. It is about the realization that society sucks and the societal constructs we have are likely to increase suffering and so we shouldn't have kids anymore until those issues are resolved.
I am gay, and a racial minority, and an antinatalist. I would hate to have a child knowing they would likely have to face racial discrimination just as much as I do not find it moral to have a child because they may be gay, or autistic, or gender nonconforming, or poor. All those things would likely increase their suffering.
But I wouldn't mind adopting any of those kids, even an autistic child, because live people are people and deserve love and compassion. Antinatalism is about the non-alive children that don't exist and the stance that they shouldn’t ever come to be, no matter what they end up being because in our current world, live likely won't be easy, they would likely contribute to the global environment crisis, and will likely increase the suffering in the world. And also they cannot consent to being forced into existence.
I would hate to have a child knowing they would likely have to face racial discrimination
Yep easier to die than dealing with the problem and, you know trying to do something. You know thank god everyone before us choose that instead of striving for social progress, that's precisely why society has been steadily progressing towards amelioration for at the VERY least the past 500 years.
I do not find it moral to have a child because they may be gay, or autistic, or gender nonconforming, or poor
So... that, my friend, is turbo-eugenics. Yes, because you finding it immoral to have kids because they could be those things means that, if you had a mean to have kids, without those risks it would at least be less immoral. Oh and before you start to find excuse : making every argument for something and just saying at the end that it is bad is not being against something.
Autistic people aren’t suffering unless you’re putting them in a system that treats them as subhuman.
While that is true for many of us, it's not true for all of us. But I'm still sure most of us still like being alive, so i'm not disagreeing with the sentiment behind your argument.
I'm not speaking for autistic people here, but I am speaking as parent to two children (now adults) on the spectrum.
Autistic children do not ruin your life and do not have ruined lives themselves. As with all parenting, sometimes things are very, very difficult and sometimes things are very, very easy. This isn't unique to raising a neurodiverse child, this is just parenting. The unique challenges that parenting a neurodiverse child brings are 99% of the time caused by how society thinks these children/adults are and assumptions about whats best for them without actually asking them rather than any sort of intrinsic issue caused by their autism or ADHD or any other neurological difference. For the remaining 1% of the time, you just do your best.
The narrative that neurological difference, in particular autism, ruins lives has, in its modern form, been with us since Andrew Wakefield first perpetuated his fraudulent claims of vaccine damage causing autism. It was spread by antivaxx/autism activist parent groups like Jenny McCarthy's Generation Rescue and the truly despicable people at Autism Speaks. These are the people who've ruined lives.
I like you. I have 2 autistic kids (still kids) and one neurotypical kid. There is no difference in raising them. Every kid has their unique challenges. I never raise my children differently unless it requires it.
Are you certain your adult children don't resent being born with autism?
Because I put on a hella front for my mom. Just throwing that out there.
I'm not naive (or arrogant) enough to think I know everything my kids are thinking and neither am I suggesting their lives are 100% perfect but all of them (on the spectrum or not) are all pretty forthright, confident adults. When they were teens they of course went through some shit related to their being autistic, but none of that was because they were autistic, it was down to how other people/situations made them feel because they were autistic. I'm as sure as any parent can ever be that I've never detected any kind of prolonged resentment or unhappiness at the fact of their autism.
We never taught them that 'autism is a superpower' because it isn't. Sometimes it has advantages and sometimes there are disadvantages and describing someone elses life as superpowered puts an unrealistic expectation of happiness and accomplishment on them. By the same token, neither are their lives a ruin and my life as their parent most certainly wasn't ruined.
From personal experience, the ability of people in the spectrum to feel happiness depends entirely on whether their parents were willing to make adjustments to see their children feel well. Most will want their child to be just like every other one and will damage them deeply in the pursuit of that.
An autistic life isn't a ruined life.
just popping in to say I love being alive and I'm thankful for my parents keeping me! I made friends with a seagull today. couldn't have done that if I was never born. fuck yeah!
I made friends with a seagull today.
I need more details about this.
This
That... is a dangerous skill Seagulls are embodiement of pure chaos, be careful with such power
Experience has shown me that the people who are thankful for their life is in the minority compared to the people who suffer their life.
That sucks
I have seen people behave in all sorts of ways
people who suffer their life have a need to express it. People who are fine don't. Simple survivor bias
ITT: people advocating eugenics on themselves. I hate it. I hate seeing it. And stuff like this is psychologically destructive to read for me.
If people here don't like others with similar traits to them advocating that their life and perspective is not valuable and that they should hate it and wish no-one new experience it, I recommend avoiding this thread - even moreso if you have suicidal tendencies. It was very upsetting for me ;-;, even though I personally have no intent to have kids.
frfr, it's so fucking tragic.
I went 36 years without even knowing. Corporate greed has done more to ruin my life than my mental illnesses have.
Same. Out of all my lost jobs, only two can be proven (by me only of course) to be because of some autistic trait I have.
While I don't value my own life as much as I should, I know I have value to others, and most of that is due to my traits. In fact, I'm starting a job today that wants me specifically because of those traits. I never thought I'd work again.
I have saved dozens of kitten lives, who go on to make their new human's life better.
I used to hate myself. I've learned to embrace the way I am and couldn't imagine being any other way. The people whose lives I have made a positive impact on would agree. I don't have to rule the world, but my household is efficient because of me.
Eugenics isn't the answer. I'd bet if we had the right resources available, none of the people in this thread would say that. Everyone deserves a chance at a good life. Corporate greed is the reason we don't have those resources.
As someone on the spectrum its ridiculous to say there life ruined first off its a spectrum so who knows how server there condition is and they can learn to live with help
"Now you have ruined three lives forever"
bruh
The sad thing is there's tons of autistic people on that sub that geniuely think like that about themselves. One of my worst experiences posting was interacting with that place and getting another autistic person talking about how they wish to die, how they wanted to be hate crime'd and literally talked about offing themselves just to spite me. That person blocked me so I have no idea what they are up to these days. This was nearly a year ago and there's a good chance they've taken their life since then.
I fucking hate r/antinatalism. Its 100% should be banned. Its literally just severely depressed people talking themselves deeper into depression.
I'm a long time.lurker there before leaving reddit for good. I've seen most of the posts for years.
Antinatalism is not a depression cult, though it does attract that type but more of a "we see life as a net negative experience and it isn't our right to inflict it on others".
It's why they're so pro adoption since those kids are already born so the damage has been done. I don't think those people are depressed or suicidal.
I'm 40 so I've been around. Ever since middle school I knew I love my theoretical kids too much to have them born into this world. So far, there hasn't been any kind of evidence or experience I had to change my mind. I'm a wage slave. My "kids" would be wage slaves. They might have to fight in resource wars when climate change or rise of Nazis start really ramping up. I don't want them to have a worse life than me and I cannot provide or promise one. I don't think there ever was a time in history where procreation was a good idea.
You can do everything right and still get a rocket dropped on your home. Your kids can still become target practice for the next psycho at school. Hell, your kids could become the psychos! Every evil person that exists or has has been someone's "beautiful baby".
To me this comes off as gambling. You are gambling that you will have a bright, kind, Neurotypical kid that will grow up to be great and spread happiness and what not.
Thing I don't get is why people find Antinatalist philosophy so goddamn triggering. We can't change your mind you are going to do whatever the fuck you want. So many hateful responses to it when you can just walk away. Why?
And as far as the OG post, if you are autistic, know that autism is hereditary and still have kids in spite of all that, that's an evil sadistic act! How can you hate your theoretical kids so damn much? I feel sorry for them, but fuck the mother.
It's true though. Living with autism is like choosing the Nightmare difficulty option in life.
Source: me
Look here, Mario. You are speaking for exactly one (1) person. Your personal experience of autism is not universal. Some of us just have better circumstances. Some of us are spiteful bitches who live for the difficulty. My point being, some of us actually like being alive, and are okay with being autists.
I politely disagree.
Autism can* be terrible, just as autism can also allow to have a great life.
So no, is not a true but a loose may.
The people that want to restrict reproduction are acting like eugenicists? I'm shocked. This is my shocked face.
Antinatalism says nothing about restricting reproduction, it is just the principle that people should abstain from reproduction. Going about that by forced sterilization, coercion, abuse, or eugenics would be bad for obvious reasons.
it is just the principle that people should abstain from reproduction.
Which is griping about reproduction followed by trying to shame people when they don't take the same principled stand. And a quick visit over to the sub shows a few people taking principled stands for themselves and a whole lot blackpilled edgelord "I hate breeders" horseshit. And sure enough there's a different post on the top page ranting about parents with disabilities having kids. Which sounds like.... what?
The people that have hard opinions about reproduction are acting like eugenicists in that sub.
not what antinatalist says
Going about that by forced sterilization, coercion, abuse, or eugenics would be bad for obvious reasons
Yeah an Mein Kampf is a book. The thing is that if antinatalism would genuinely improve the world it means it does have the goal to be implemented in all of society. This mean you're gonna need to set a standard through rules and to enforce them. Those are the means.
Oh and if Antinatalism think having children is already bad, it clearly present having disabled children as worse
Antinatalism is a more deranged branch of eugenics. It's not simply "promoting eugenics" it's a belief that giving birth is the greatest evil one can inflict upon a child and the world at large.
That they'd clearly see us as subhuman isn't surprising given that they at best want our entire species to voluntarily go extinct. Their entire worldview is best summed up as gentle genocide is good.
It's like these people have forgotten there are people with different set of beliefs than their own.
No matter how justified your beliefs are, you cannot impose them on others. This is true for religions and this is true for every single ideological stance out there.
They're nuts, for sure.
It's also ridiculously cruel to create a consciousness knowing it'll die.
Unless you are religious and believe in eternal torment after death, death isn't cruel, it's simply an end to life, a permanent return to nonexistence no more or less cruel than having never been born.
Additionally, while they aren't exactly wrong in that going from nonexistence to existence results in an infinite increase in potential for suffering, that holds true for joy/happiness/pleasure.
Imo bringing someone into being is not cruel nor wonderful, not moral nor immoral. It simply is.
It’s also ridiculously cruel to create a consciousness knowing it’ll die.
No, it isn't. There, now we're on equal rhetorical footing unless you'd like to support that incredibly bold statement with ... anything? A link? A train of thought?
What is the alternative? Giving up on humanity existing?
We can't change that this how life exists in our reality.
Why is this subreddit full of idiots? They are misrepresenting antinatalism so fucking hard.
Yes.
I know it's not your point but this isn't reddit
I think antinatalism is a really interesting philosophy. But it falls apart as soon as you discriminate - It is fair to question the ethics of reproduction, but as soon as you discriminate you end up in eugenics territory. This subreddit is really hostile sadly. there is a lot of ableism under the disguise of antinatalism
True antinatalism would say everyone should not have kids, regardless of anything. Of course nobody is enforcing this so it's a kinda do whatever but maybe think twice before having kids.
The antinatalism subreddit (and similar groups elsewhere) is one of the most toxic places on the internet. It just reeks of hatred, and worse yet, treats that hatred as some sort of virtue.
Go live your life however you want, kids or no. But grouping up to talk shit about children or people who start families is just gross.
They can't, they have to tell the world how better they are because they didn't finish inside.
"It's not a toxic stew of depression and misanthropy guys, it's a totally valid belief system!"
This isn't the first time I've seen it here or on reddit either, and it's honestly sad.
These groups always seem like doomers who have ingested so much negativity that they've developed depression. Either that, or they're taking the loooong way to just telling their moms that they don't want to start a family.
I don't have ASD but I have ADHD, and based on my experience I think it's extremely fair to see knowingly inflicting upon another living being a disability that causes great pain and suffering throughout their entire life, as fucked up and immoral
It's like pugs and pitbulls, many people can agree in the thought "why are we intentionally creating more canines with terrible disabilities which badly hurt them for the rest of their life?", so why is it so bad when the same logic is applied to humans?
I think it's dumb to describe it as "eugenics", considering that's a term almost entirely associated in the modern day with Nazism, forced imprisonment/torture/forced sterilization of certain groups, and racist beliefs. Wheras this seems concerned with wanting people to not suffer nearly as much after they're born, so they're expressing how they're upset that people chose to create a new life with more suffering than average when there's tons of equally good alternatives, and I think that's pretty different than flat out promoting genocide...
What's wrong with adoption anyways? It's pretty selfish to bring a new life into this world for your own personal satisfaction when you could literally just take a child who's already out there suffering and make them not suffer for no extra loss.
I find it stupid that they describe it as "ruined lives" though. Especially for the parents, like wtf just be a good parent? It's not like most parents have a kid with no difficult challenges to face whatsoever. When you become a parent you sign up to being exposed to any and every possibility that could come from a kid. If you become a parent and then go "woe is me, I didn't expect autism so I can't deal with this, don't blame me for not parenting correctly" then you shouldn't have become a parent. The only way parents can "ruin" their own lives is if they're a shitty parent, which unfortunately a majority of people are...
disability that causes great pain and suffering throughout their entire life
Motherfucker what are you talking about? I am literally just here to vibe, it's the fault of the current system for refusing to support any kind of variety. Autism isn't fucking osteoporosis, I'm not in pain, I'm just fucking different.
Autistic people aren't suffering unless you're putting them in a system which refuses to treat them as anything other than subhuman.
Remind me when we're not going to be in a system which refuses to treat disabled people properly? We live in a world built against disabled people. That is NOT going to change soon. We are corporatist and in most of the first world the right-wing is on the rise. Look at Italy, look at most of western Europe actually. Look how much attention people like DeSantis got before blowing it, and how popular it is to hate on groups like disabled more than it has ever been in recent years – shit it only getting worse. Why bring an innocent kid into that?
Besides, neurodevolopmental disorders in many people can objectively just inflict suffering completely detached from the "system". I've seen them firsthand with both myself and friends with ASD. Especially socially. Obviously won't apply to every mentally disabled person, but it's extremely high likelihood – I meet almost entirely people with ASD and/or ADHD who feel extremely lonely and can't find comfort socially.
Even with treatment ADHD fucks me and many others over in ways completely unrelated to the system. Friends with ASD describe it similarly, especially when ASD doesn't have as many options in terms of treatment compared to ADHD. When it comes to ADHD, I can't enjoy myself with hobbies or the satisfaction of my productivity as a person without such a disorder can, I can't find happiness in my own hobbies if I can't do them, and I spend many days being upset that I can't make myself do the stuff I want to do even if I have medication. I can say with confidence I would 100% be happier if I was born in the same circumstances but without ADHD. And this is an extremely common sentiment for neurodevelopmental disorders, you can see it all over the thread.
This is the case. One thing is treating all humans with respect, and another is knowingly contributing to someone having a more difficult life. You can love the ones who already exist without passing on your genetic nonsense to new ones.
I have ASD and ADHD, generally pretty happy to be here.
Autism is a spectrum and most of us are perfectly functional, happy, productive people.
It's nothing like pugs or pitbulls, frankly that's kind of offensive. You're likening us to a genetic mistake. Most of the time I find myself wondering why the neurotypicals are so goddamn dysfunctional.
Who the fuck do you think you are too suggest that I, and many of my friends, shouldn't exist?
You're describing eugenics, call it what it is. It's not my fault you have shitty bedfellows.
Lmao everything you say is clearly purely out of hatred. Why do you value the life of a dog so much less than the life of a human to call them "genetic mistakes"?
And who said that you and your friends shouldn't exist? Certainly not me. You're likening "maybe it's a bad idea to knowingly create someone with a disability with a high likelihood of fucking someone over in life" to "i wish you and all your friends were dead and didn't exist".
It's actually pretty offensive to imply to the large portion of people who have their lives negatively affected by ADHD and ASD that it's not all that bad and they should suck it up and stop wishing they didn't have it. Clearly a lot of people in this thread disagree with you, those who have mental disorders including ASD.
Just because you were lucky and don't suffer much or even at all, means that it's fine that many (and in my experience most) other people affected by the disorder suffer? That's extremely selfish.
It is not describing eugenics. You are just saying emotionally charged words to try to make whatever you disagree with look worse. I could call what you believe in "sadism" and it'd have the same validity.
I believe it's bad to intentionally give a child bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, mood disorders, personality disorders, etc. because those can all cause extreme pain even if it doesn't seem like a problem when you're younger. I'm sure you'd agree that it's immoral to willingly afflict someone with that. But you draw the line at neurodevelopmental disorders for some reason?
In this case you already exist. You only get the right to exist after you do exist, or we would have to discuss the rights of inexistent people, and that would be very confusing
- I am autistic and have ADHD and I still prefer having been born to the alternative thank you very much!
- Comparing the intentional breeding of universaly harmful traits in dogs to taking a slightly higher risk of ASD which is rarely harmful is quite a stretch.
- Without autistic people many great things wouldn't exist today. I would argue that without the special interests and hyperfocus of neurodiverse people a lot of scientce and engineering wouldn't have happened or at least a lot later.
- While ASD and ADHD are often percieved as harmful, they are rarely only harmful and often bring special talent or at least a unique perspective.
The entire "your ADHD is a superpower" rhetoric is extremely harmful to people who have ADHD and generally leads to the struggles of ADHD not being taken seriously. I don't have a "gift" or a "superpower", I have a disability...
ADHD has many, MANY objectively bad things about it, and extremely few "good" things. I'd say the only thing that's positive that comes out of my ADHD is that I have a lot of interests, but even that is a problem in and of itself because it makes me divide my attention between many different things and never complete any of them... ADHD comes with a ton of executive dysfunction and self-regulation problems that tend to fuck you up a lot in life.
The hyperfocus is hardly a benefit considering it generally causes you to waste a ton of time on things that shouldn't get that much time, and even not considering that I'd say any benefit of hyperfocus is heavily outweighed by just being able to do anything at any time without having to constantly fight yourself over it, since you'd get so much more done. I find that people with both a good amount of Autism and some ADHD do a lot better than people who just have ADHD when it comes to these things, because the ASD can take actual advantage of the hyperfocus, but that's something a lot of people with ADHD do NOT have...
Also if someone was never born, they wouldn't know nor care that they weren't born since they never existed. There's literally 0 downside to not being born. Any sort of idea that you'd hate to not have been born or that you would prefer to be born than not to be is a purely irrational thought considering that.
And yes, there are people with ASD and ADHD and depression and whatever that live lives that they like. That's not the point. The point is that the disorders do cause an objective amount of suffering that is higher than those without, especially in this society, and in many cases the suffering causes a lot of harm to the person, so intentionally taking a high chance of that happening to your kid is immoral. I don't want to intentionally harm my kid, you shouldn't either.
Btw, it's not a "slightly higher risk" you are giving your kid like 9x the odds of having ASD if you yourself have ASD. And if you have ADHD you are almost guaranteeing that your kid also has ADHD.
It kind of sounds like you're saying these parents should have predicted their 3 twins would end up with autism. Which, you know, would be....deeply stupid
I would assume that one or both of the parents have ASD if all 3 of their kids have ASD. I would hope that kind of stuff would be clarified when taking the guy's sperm, but who knows in some countries like the US right. It could be recessive genes, or something environmental like smoking/drinking while pregnant though
I don't know. I hate the fact that I was born autistic. Unlike a lot of autistic people, I refuse to think of it as some kind of 'superpower' or positive thing.
I was born defective. I'm literally a broken human who doesn't function correctly.
I know that I sure as hell wish I wasn't born, and whilst I'm sure those mothers are going to do a great job with their children, I also don't think that I should have children at the risk of passing it down and letting another person suffer the way I have.
We think similarly. Autism makes life difficult. I think scanning for defective genes early in pregnancy is worthwhile to avoid life destroying issues.
Of course autism has a scale of sorts, you can still live somewhat normally, but it sure as hell doesn't feel beneficial
You can't check genes to determine whether people will have a fulfilling and interesting life or whether they are some point will wish they weren't born. You can only make horrifying filtering based on crude guesses, also known as eugenics.
I don't know how autism affects your life but I can speak for myself and I know it can be tough, executive dysfuntion has been beating my ass hard for a few years at this point.
Still, I do not think I'm broken because of it, years of conditioning by a society that doesn't give a shit about us and want us to do as much or more than everyone else while also laughing at us really fucks me up, even while being aware of these expectations and lack of structural support.
Also, I wouldn't consider myself really me without the special interests and obsessions I had throughout my life and the ways I have talked and expressed it.
What I have just said most likely won't change anything in your life, but I just wanted to aknowledge how hard it can be while also showing a little bit of what makes me happy about my experience being autistic. I hope for the best for you, friend.
I feel like everyone in this thread are arguing two different things. "My neurodivergence has made my life hell and I wish I never existed in the first place" and "you can live a fullfilling life with neurodivergence" aren't conflicting concepts to me.
Right there with you
Big same, yet when I got old and stopped caring about anything, and started paying more attention to others than my own problems, I started to notice autistic tendencies in almost everyone I have interacted with. Even people that bully or hate on autistic people. The hyperfixation on negative things or on really awful views on people and the world is always strong in those ones, paired with other weird brain shit like complexes coupled with total denial and inability to accept that they are wrong. I've been feeling like everyone is autistic and there is just more axes to the spectrum than I had been told in the past. Like rather than a point on a line, it's a coordinate in a cube. The most central ones are 'neurotypical' and it moves outward in all directions in 3d space.
On a side note neroatypical/nerotypical as a term kinda pisses me off because I swear it's more typical for people to be neuroatypical than what is considered neurotypical. People just think they are 'normal' but they are wrong. And it's not lesbians or vaccines, if anything its the forever chemicals and microplastics that these evil fucking corpos have been pumping into us and the world and we are only going to see more and more autism, and only the ultra wealthy will be able to call themselves normal while the rest of us will be considered defective.
If I may take a moment to ask... what the fuck are you on about, OP? Absolutely nothing in the screenshot suggests anything even remotely related to eugenics. You took that leap all on your own.
It is tangentially related. Eugenics in general is about "improving the gene pool" by letting certain people have children. Autistic people are usually thrown into that camp. People don't want autistic kids therefore certain individuals shouldn't have children to reduce that chance. That in spirit is what the post is highlighting.
Now, is the OOP a "eugenicist"? Idk if i can give that conclusion, but the antinatalist rhetoric can be argued to borderline their ideals.
Objectively people with autism will have a harder life because of extra struggles. (Not that you can't have a good life, but you have a higher chance of struggling). The antinatalism movement is not about "improving the gene pool" or related to eugenicist ideals like you are implying, it is about reducing suffering. And the extreme conclusion is that the only certain way to reduce suffering is to stop breeding. (And not having children is not the same as some selective culling like you are implying is the 'spirit' of the post)
This isn't about exterminating autistic people, if the couple had adopted 3 autistic kids the op likely would not have had an issue. The op is pointing out how the desire to have "biological" children led to them doing a procedure that increased the likelyhood of having more than one child, and increased the likelyhood of complications.
Maybe "ruined 3 lives" is harsh, but I don't see this as eugenicist. It is standard antinatalism "having multiple children is bad when you could have adopted but your drive for 'blood children' led to this and they will now have a statistically more difficult life than their peers so you likely increased the net suffering in society out of selfishness"
I really hate those guys, is ok you don't want kids, don't push it on everyone else.
We have to fix the world one way or another and thruth be told, I think that being so bleak helps nobody.
I definitely understand some of the points made by antinatalism. I often struggle with the fact that life is imposed on me rather then chosen and i am definitely considering geopolitics and ecological/economic when i make choices of how many kids i should have, but i long rationalized most issues to be with human society and not with life itself.
I very much believe society can still evolve but to do so we will need to become better people first, the most straightforward way to get better people is to educate them well starting from birth.
The conclusion of antinatalism seems to be a pessimistic extreme, that life itself can only be suffering so we are better of self-extincting ourself by stopping to make new babies but if all progressives followed this rhetoric then the only people Reproducing are those that do not care at all.
In other words in order for their valid criticisms to have any positive effect on society they should still support progressives that are able to provide to have some amount of kids because or else they become a Selffulfilling prophecy of societal decline.
The bias against neurodivergents having children is sadly enough way more common than just those circles, but people like Greta Thunberg are proof that if anything the world needs more Autism and a not cure.
I share your feelings there regarding the choice or lack thereof with being born and seeing some of the points of antinatalism.
I don't think that community fully understands what antinatalism should be. Casually browsing it though, it seems more like they're more going towards eugenics than an actual antinatalist approach - i.e. applied to everyone, nondiscriminately, for reasons of morality (choice vs forced into existence, overpopulation and its ties to resource allocation and requirements and such). Arguably some posts there could be reasonably expected from non-antinatalist people, the sort of 'if you can't afford to raise them, don't have them'.
The conclusion of antinatalism seems to be a pessimistic extreme,
I might suggest that this is good enough reason to not want to reproduce. If your own life has been shit, you wouldn't want to inflict that on others.
I’ve been there myself and i will always respect a choice people make for themselves, but they shouldn’t impose theirs onto others.
I definitely understand some of the points made by antinatalism
Understanding a shitty idea won't make it better. I too understand it, but I reject it completely
Now you have ruined three lives forever
Yeah this is the point where I'm really glad other people having kids is not his decision to make. I'm high-functioning enough to pass for neurotypical, but my sense of injustice at this is amped beyond deep-fat-fry, on to 'hot as the sun at its core'
What a mean thing... but I agree, I never wanted this...
There's no other way to put it, having kids is extremely selfish.
It's pretty much the epitome of selfishness.
I want to clarify though, this isn't to say that calling only people who to have kids who happen to have disabilities "selfish." Every single parent is extremely selfish (excluding some outliers, obviously, don't "um actually" me).
I can't believe the willfull ignorance of people. There are examples of thousands of people with autism becoming amazing people. I feel that reason is impossible for some
I firmly believe most of our problems come from thick cunts like this.
Quite a few people here on the comments are siding with the antinatalist narrative, but I don't think this is rational at all, in fact it's dangerous. Sure, you can individually opt to not bring more people into the world because you believe it would bring more suffering than happiness, but if this rhetoric spreads, the logical conclusion (heavily extrapolating without considering anything else) is the end of humanity which solves nothing, and while it prevents suffering, it also prevents happiness. If done and advocated in the pretext that we are ruining the planet, that certain people shouldn't be born, and other similar reasoning then this just reeks of ecofascism or plain fascism, and eugenics.
It's easy for us to buy into the narrative that we are all inherently bad and that we as humans are destroying the environment and the world, but this is not true, it's not me and you who are doing this, this is not a human trait, it's a consequence of the system we live in that incentivizes profit above all else. Why do you think awareness, support and accommodations for us needs to be fought over? Because it's expensive and doesn't guarantee profit, and the same can be said about the environment and the way corporations are literally burning the planet. Profit and accumulation of capital above all else, that is the rule.
There's only one way out of this nightmare that will give us the tools to revert the damage and actually build a society and world that will accept us, accommodate to us, liberate people and save the planet, and it's through organizing, studying and fighting.
We are in absolutely no danger of ever going extinct. You can never get enough people to use contraceptives or practice abstinence. You can't even get people to wear masks!
I agree, I was exaggerating for the argument because I think antinatalism as a whole is dangerous, not for the made up scenario of humanity going extinct, but for the eugenics/fascism side.
This is such an incredible leap in logic.
You can say that having kids is selfish, which it objectively is (no matter if they're perfectly healthy/wealthy/on top of society or not), but also want to "build a society and world that will accept us, accommodate to us, liberate people and save the planet."
Focusing on just kids with disabilities and not every kid is fucked though, with a lot of these people in these spaces.
Slippery slope fallacy
How? It's the part about taking it to it's logic conclusion, which I said was an exageration?
This post makes me so mad. Holy shit. It's Autism, they're lives aren't ruined. I have autism and I'm very glad to be alive. The person that has made this comment spends way too much time on the internet and not enough interacting with people offline.
Antinatalism is a thing that could only thrive on the internet in a community full of people that get fed nothing but bad news all day. Go outside. The world isn't as bad as you think
Go outside. The world isn't as bad as you think
It's pretty bad
It definitely has shades of the anti-vax idiots that said they'd rather have their child dead of a preventable disease than to have autism. As a parent of a child who has autism, the parent of a neurotypical child, and a person who is autistic, I'm happy that all three of us are alive and well and disease free thanks to vaccines. Even if vaccines caused autism (which they absolutely don't), I'd rather my child be autistic and alive than not autistic and dead.
WTF are they talking about? I've known lots of autistic people who lead very normal lives... I suspect the person who wrote this "rant" is either an edgy teenager or a basement dwelling neckbeard who believed himself capable of "curing" one of his lesbian friends
I am on the autism spectrum. I'm well into middle age.
Being autistic is like being in a poker game where you keep getting dealt hands that are high-card, and everyone else is getting straights, flushes, or even just pairs, and you only get out when you're bankrupt. Yeah, I play the hand I'm dealt, and I'm going to lose every goddamn time.
EDIT: A better analogy is gonna be Pinnochio (or A. I. Artificial Intelligence). I'm never going to be a real boy (any no, it's not because I'm AFAB and also a gender essentialist). No matter how hard I work at being better, there's no good fae that's going to come along and use their fae magic to make me a real boy. I'm never going to have the experiences of the real children, because I'm simply not one of them. I can ape their external characteristics, but I can't be them. While this--being autistic--is a result of evolution (it's likely a non-beneficial genetic mutation), humans have largely evolved to survive as a social species, to have close relationships and tribal affiliations. I'm always going to be on the outside, rather than part of an in-group.
Why do you think there is such a thing as a 'real boy'? It is likely that most other people you know are envious of you for something else - maybe your ability to paint, or your voice - and are thinking 'if only I could draw / sing like Helixdab2. But I'll never have real talent.' Yes, some people get dealt a better hand than others, but that doesn't make them an ideal to aspire to.
Being envious of me for an ability is irrelevant to the point.
Unrelated to your comment, but you should probably do some research on the gender essentialism front. We've known gender and sex are different for a long time, and should treat trans people as their gender, not their biological sex.
You misunderstand; I'm making fun of the people that claim that gender and biological sex are the same thing. I am not a gender essentialist, nor am I AFAB.
I'm sort of convinced that ASD is a view of the future where humans finally shrug off the bonds of being descended from apes. So much of the nastiness that humans are capable of come from the sort of behavior that allowed our ancestors to survive. We no longer live there and no longer need to think in that way.
Disagree. People on the spectrum are subject to the same kind of irrational hatred and violent impulses as every other person. Given that a common issue with people on the spectrum is an inability to read emotional and contextual cues, I'd argue that people on the spectrum are less evolved. We're certainly less capable, in that we have fewer capabilities than neurotypical people.
I am difficult at times. So are you people. But I found love and so did or will you too (yes, even you Steffan). The point I’m trying to make is: It doesn’t matter how broken we are, we are more human than this hate filled person ever will be.
Fuck Reddit
Antinatalist here - the rhetoric in that post is horrible, and is not representative of antinatalism as a whole.
Antinatalism isn’t the belief that a certain group shouldn’t reproduce - it’s that nobody should. The world is fucked, and nonconsensually bringing anyone into it is morally reprehensible. It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
For the people that have been born, however, everyone deserves respect and equity. Ableism, or any other kind of discrimination, is just wrong, and makes you a shitty person. Just like the person who made that post.
It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
"Don't worry guys, that person doesn't represent us - what they should have said is that they wish for all of humanity to die out."
This is an absolutely insane thing to advocate for. I hope you come to realize that in time.
According to some predictions, climate change will cause up to 3 billion refugees by the end of the century. The world isn't exactly the most stable right now either, in part due to the beginning effects of climate change.
Not that I necessarily agree with it, but coming to the conclusion that it's not necessarily moral to bring a child into that world or contribute to further suffering, isn't particularly insane or inhumane.
It's not a particularly novel or outlandish idea either. From Sophocles to Shakespeare. To be or not to be, is an age old question.
Not that going on about how much you hate children and people who have children all day on the internet, is a particularly healthy hobby, obviously.
I’m not saying we should kill people, I’m saying making more is wrong.
It is a nonconsensual act whereupon you are forcing life and all its travesty onto another being, when they were perfectly fine not existing.
Call me insane if you want, I couldn’t care less. Humans are a plague upon both other humans and this planet as a whole, and bringing someone else into the world to be both a victim and perpetrator of the issue is wrong.
Wow, the Church of Shar exists in the real world.
I think your belief system is a rare example actual Evil. You're literally advocating for the elimination of music, of art, of science, of anyone who could even appreciate those things. No more Rembrandt or Dali or Mozart or ... anything. And you've gotten so twisted up inside, ostensibly because some people live sad, hard lives, that you think that's a good thing.
Dude, find a therapist. This is no way to live.
Arguing that people must exist so as to maintain art and science is rather silly. Art and science exist for our utility; we are under no obligation to them. If people decide not to reproduce, that is their right.
I’m advocating for the elimination of poverty, disease, death, pollution, war, hate, and all human suffering.
Sure, there are some neat things in this world that are worth experiencing if you were forced to live. If you’re already alive, of course you should seek to find happiness and enjoyment in the little time you have.
Still doesn’t justify forcing more people into the world to exacerbate the problems we have - overpopulation being a major one.
It’s not evil. Things were fine before us, and things will be fine after us.
Always amused me to see people posting that shit and then later posting about the Paradox of Tolerance.
Apparently fascists should be lined up against the wall and the autistic kids should be right next to them. If those people got their wish ALL Neuro-Divergent children would cease to exist. "You will be born PURE or you will not be born at all!" seems to be their motto.
It's ironic that the creator of evolution (Charlie Darwie), what I assume the foundational theory of their community, is considered to have been autistic.
Bro Autism is not a death sentence, geez. It's simply a neurodivergency. The world would absolutely be worse off without the ASD community as part of it. And I'm not even speaking poetically here. As someone with hyperactive type ADHD, ASD peers can be an absolute relief to talk to.
Neurotypical folks can be quite frustrating at times. Though they may not realize it, there's a lot of indirect communication between NT folks. They tend to imply what they mean, rather than say what they mean directly. Quite frustrating. My anecdotal experience has led me to believe that the average ADHD or ASD person is a far more effective communicator.
Are they expecting them to test for autism before being used?
Antinatalism is the prelude to ecofascism.
Well, not saying we should interfere with people's life choices but it would've made a thing or two easier for me If my parents didn't have me.
Reddit being reddit for whole ass reddit post Getting permaban for getting into an argument with nazis and other totalitarianist was the best thing that happened to me. Outside of r/aspiememes that site is a cesspool
The childfree folks are batshit to start with but they are really only saying we won’t have kids, although they can be dicks about it.
This lot are saying you should not have kids which is a whole new level of nutcase.
Childfree =/= antinatalist
TIL Lesbian couples cause autistic kids?
Abortion and euthanasia are going to lead to autistic people being murdered. Neo progressives already believe that disabled children should be aborted and atheists admit that "life begins some time after birth" meaning they openly support euthanasia up to age five in some cases. A lot of neo progressives think the most humane option for disabled children is abortion or euthanasia at a young age.
Yikes, that sounds bad. Can you provide a source?
Autistic people might be too much but we regularly nudge people to do eugenics if they have a chance to birth babies with down syndrome. "Eugenics" is mostly bad but I doubt people would disagree with the prevention of creating babies with huge disabilities. Autistic people are in the gray area imo.
"Eugenics" is the state-sponsored regulation of human reproduction. Eugenics functions via public policy and the rule of law. Until it is mandated by the state, it is not eugenics.
You want to abort your baby because you don't like its genetics, that is your decision to make; the state should have no input. You want to privately persuade or even bribe people to abort or keep certain kids based on their genetic heritage, that is disgusting, but it is not eugenics.
The problems of eugenics are not due to the suppression of genetic diseases, but because of state interference in reproductive decisions.
