Vegans are correct, people just don't want to change their lifestyle. I am not a vegan (yet) for what it's worth, but they are definitely correct.
Would you like to go vegan and need advice?
Not the same person, but I'm in a similar position, just further along. Getting meat out of my diet was actually really trivial. Cheese is the big problem.
Fully vegan when I cook at home, but vegan options in restaurants and fast food are non-existent where I live, so I have cheese whenever I eat out. I've also come to terms with the fact I can never be fully vegan because I have 2 cats who need their cat food.
Yep. I'm a vegetarian for environmental reasons. There's a huge amount of will behind ending humanity's reliance on fossil fuels, but very few care about ending our reliance on meat, the most inefficient source of food.
I haven't gone full vegetarian or vegan. I should for the health of our world though. I have however cut my meat consumption down to about 1# a week, usually chicken. For whatever that's worth.
I didn't realize I was straight up addicted to meat in my diet till I tried cutting it out. I think that's why people get angry with vegans, cause then they gotta look inward, and then that's gonna be this whole other thing. Oofta
I wonder how bad eggs are for the environment though?
To be fair there was a large amount of time (2010s at least) where vegans weren't even trying to be appealling. It was either. Stereotypical vegan dishes but even more limited or extremely bad vegetarian meat. Vegetarian meat has improved a lot and more importantly vegan food is represented as less one note.
Don't think I'm strong enough to give up dairy but respect to those who can do so without being elitist
I agree with you to an extent, but, like, what about my local farm that pasture raised pigs and cows and, yes, eventually slaughters them, how do they compare to what I think everyone agrees are terrible, the meat processing plants of the Midwest?
At least for the public at large such methods aren't practical (not enough space to raise enough meat) and not able to produce meat at a cost the general public could afford.
It's also still horrible to butcher the animals, I don't consider any such killing to be humane. They are also killed at a rather young age, barely even adult just max size. You also have the forced pregnancy of the animals and odds are the pigs are still crated after giving birth, the cow calves separated from their mothers, etc.
Nothing is black and white, of course, but slaughtering animals for consumption is animal exploitation and worse for the environment. The impact is much smaller, but still fundamentsl.
Ultimately, it comes down to how we see animals, life, and the environment.
Vegans can be annoying, but at the end of the day they're right about a lot of things. It's just that the ethics of consuming meat and animal products can be a delicate conversation, and requires a pretty big change in how one views not only themselves but life as a whole. A lot of online vegans like to approach it the with tact of a sledgehammer.
Trust me, irl vegans are usually way more chill in my experience.
Online vegan here. Just wanted to add that after a couple of years of the same jokes and arguments and demeaning comments that were forced upon you because you had to explain why you don't want to eat what everyone else around you eats, you kinda lose your tact a bit.
Never went to somebody with a burger in hand and called him a murderer. Been called an emasculated pussy and wittle little rabbit for eating a salad so many times. Same people then complain about annoying vegans. It's a bit infuriating.
I can understand that. Constantly needing to justify your existence or preferences is exhausting, especially when there's a stereotype that people are using to project.
I went vegetarian for a bit. I was never vocal about it. I just skipped ordering meat from the menu and asked for veggie options from the waiter. I was surprised the amount of people that gave me shit for it. It was like, "you know animals eat other animals right?" I used to respond with: "yes, but I want to do it for ecological reasons because factory farming is destroying our environment". I remember getting short with people after a short period of time and started saying: "I graduated from university, what do you think?"
Most of my vegan friends are so nice. Their partners eat meat and they let them live.
Very rarely will you get a "vegan gainz" type person that laughs at people that die or have cancer because they've eaten meat. Those type of people are completely repulsive but they're rarely the people I've encountered that are vegans.
Choosing what you eat is your own thing and right to do. But when that decision becomes what defines people they become very annoying. We live in a world of abundance which we created by exploiting people, animals and nature as a whole. So when someone comes without asking and calls you a murderer and animal abused for something they themselves did until recently and still rely on modern medicine and whole set of other animal products it's annoying, hypocritical and most importantly dishonest.
From my experience, switching diets doesn't require turning your world view upside down. Maybe if your reason for going vegan is some life-altering epiphany? But I think most people already understand at this point, they just don't want to change. I'm not speaking here with judgment.
I'm vegan at home, though I'll sometimes make some exceptions for dairy when I'm out. Explaining that to anyone who wants to share a meal with me ranges anywhere from a brief heads up to a full on ethics debate initiated by the other person. It's weirdly common how often non-vegans feel challenged just by the existence of a vegan in their presence. Like I'm not trying to have a conversation about it. This is a very practical thing for me and that's mostly how I see this "lifestyle choice." It made sense for me to stop eating meat, so I did. No internal struggles or questions about my place in the world. Just logistics about how to navigate our meat-centric food culture. So yeah, I think the biggest challenge isn't overcoming some personal hurdles, but simply pushback from people and other external factors that make it harder to change.
It's just that the ethics of consuming meat and animal products can be a delicate conversation, and requires a pretty big change in how one views not only themselves but life as a whole
I was raised vegetarian by a vegan. I'm now a hunter and eat meat almost daily.
I find it always irritating how people constantly say "vegans are annoying". Being Vegan would be waaaay easier if meat eaters wouldn't be so damn annoying about their meat consumption. Just say the word "vegan" and some will lose their shit.
I've never met a vegan in real life who is annoying (about veganism. Maybe about other things...) Most of them it even takes a while to find out they're vegan. Several bosses I only found out because a team lunch. Several others I only found out because I befriended them at work and after months of talking to them it finally came up one way or another. Never even be criticized by them, and likewise, I've never criticized them (in general I have very few issues with veganism. Maybe I disagree with them on honey bees, and not even sure that's all vegans. Oh, and perhaps the belief that one cannot love any animal if they eat meat, but its not a topic i wish to agrue so I dont bother engaging anyway.)
Online you may have someone being more abolitionist or mutant about veganism, but even them it's hardly an issue unless you go into vegan spaces or are commenting about certain things like that dolphin shooting, and even then it's not really mostly on the level of whataboutism and being really extreme and preachy.
I've seen a lot more hate coming from non vegans, both unprompted (like this post) and in reaction to casual posts about a recipe or something on social media.
How nice for you. I lived in Montreal. the amount of vegans that won’t yell at you with a bunch of assumptions about your lifestyle and you haven’t even ordered any food yet is minimal.
On the other hand I’ve ran into far too many ‘red meat eaters with trucks’ in English speaking culture who will never hesitate to impromptu continue a dont-tread-on-me argument with randos as if we are aware what they are going the fuck on about which just makes them seem some of the most irrational, fragile, whiney, pissants I’ve ever met in my life.
Self absorbed fuckheads will come from anywhere. It’s hard to pick who to hate just based on argument. I don’t even care for their argument. I just hate them as a person.
Meat eaters: Vegans are annoying
Also meat eaters: lOoK at the bAbY wItTlE VeGaN bAbY pAnSy LoSeR WhO CaReS aBoUt aNiMaL wElFaRe bOoHoO
Vegans were annoying...
20 years ago, when veganism was getting traction in modern culture and it was all they could do to spread the idea that we might be able to not consume meat.
Everyone's annoying and it's fine to be annoying.
If you're putting forward arguments for anything, it is more convincing and pleasant to be not annoying.
If you are right and annoying, you are still annoying.
I have said obvious things here, most people still need to hear them anyway.
Some people will never change unless you make it more uncomfortable to be stuck in their ways than it is to change
20% mad about this already, that's pretty good numbers honestly
People who "are something", in general are annoying as fuck. As soon as you make something your identity you've probably fucked up.
That said I've tried to reduce meat consumption as much as possible, for the environment and the animals.
I agree. Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
Reducing meat consumption is probably the best way to go for most people (I've reduced mine because of my vegetarian wife and don't feel like I miss anything) but eating strictly vegan doesn't seem right to me. Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Not trying to start an argument with you, you do you, but are you aware that most factory farmed animals are supplemented with B12? Meat and dairy consumers are taking supplements, just indirectly.
Also, anybody living in cloudy areas (North Europe, North US, Canada, etc) should be taking vitamin D supplements anyway, meat eater or vegan.
Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
I eat meat from time to time, so definitely not even vegetarian, but I've absolutely run into more offended meat eaters than vegans IRL, but meat at dinner is a big part of my home country's culture.
I remember my sisters' boyfriend fuming, thinking we were trolling him by not having meat at a family dinner. The meat eating mind cannot comprehend.
Literally the only strictly necessary supplement for vegans is b12, and if you understand the science of b12, then you know that you either should be supplementing it anyway, or you're just rolling the dice.
By contrast there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren't deadly.
I've met more militant meat assholes. By a lot. Including when I was vegan.
My MIL went full plant based (vegan but also only raw or minimally processed foods, doesn't even eat tofu or olive oil if she can avoid it) after watching some documentary on Netflix and it is her entire personality now, including trying to force it on my wife I who already eat vegetarian 95% of the time (everything at home is vegetarian, occasionally eat meat out if none of the vegetarian options sound good) primarily for environmental and health reasons. Every time we visit her she makes some snide and not even veiled remarks about us still occasionally eating meat and still eating dairy, her favorite is referring to any sort of cheese as "congealed cow puss".
She also 100% believes it can cure diabetes, Alzheimers, dementia, and cancer in a matter of months and that meat and dairy cause autism.
Most likely she suppresses envy, one way or another.
She wants that "congealed cow puss" herself.
Exactly. I don't label myself as a vegan. But when I go somewhere where they try to feed me meat/eggs, I tell them that I don't eat meat/eggs.
It's defi becoming more common to avoid assuming everyone is cool with whatever food.
Eh. I lived in a place that has a lot of vegans and know a lot of them. In reality I think only a small percentage of vegans do this. But the ones who do are the most vocal, and the most likely to have negative interactions with non-vegans.
I think a lot of basic assholes hate on anyone with an identity. Whether it's actually annoying or not.
People who "are something", in general are annoying as fuck.
So do you also find people that are allergic annoying? We all are something.
That'll just make them throw a tantrum and stop trying to quit.
Haha this is funny
At a high level, I have no control over your actions, you have no control over mine. We can argue until we're blue in the face, but when someone walks away after that argument, they're free to do as they please.
Physically, you don't need to eat meat. I'd recommend a good dietician if you want to go vegetarian or vegan, at least until you figure enough out that you can maintain the intake of all your required vitamins and nutrients as you transition. There are more than a few of them that are typically provided by meat products for most people's eating habits, you'll want advice on how to suppliment that without relying on pills. Suppliment pills can be helpful, but you probably don't want to have to take them all the time.
Eating meat can certainly be healthy too, speaking mainly for ones nutritional needs. The nutrients in meat are, in some cases, fairly rare in plants, so it can vastly simplify the job of meeting your nutritional needs.
For vegans, on a social and societal level, I agree with the concepts surrounding factory farming and the unethical treatment of the animals that become meat. No argument from me. However, thinking that any meat consumption is tantamount to murder, is not a view I share. Animals, and their meat, are eaten by other animals (including humans - separate from farming... I'm talking about actual hunting here). In nature, there's no hesitation about this, no remorse, and no known sorrow from the animals who "lost someone" to being food. Sadness over the passing of an individual is almost (but not entirely) a human phenomenon. Same with morals and ethics... To name a few. Ethically, I don't personally have a problem with animals dying for food. I do however have a problem with the abuse and maltreatment of animals that will become food. While alive, animals should be given some measure of dignity and respect. They should not be forced into living their lives in small cages and jammed together with hundreds of their kin in a confined space the way factory farming often does.
Eating meat does not and should not imply that a person is complicit nor agrees with the concept of factory farms or anything they do. Some people do not have the time, effort, money or focus to dedicate to finding alternatives. You don't know their life and you should not judge based on their eating habits alone. It's presumptive and arrogant to think that people have the bandwidth to even grok the concept of changing their entire lifestyle because of factory farms. In the same manner, vegans and vegetarians should not be negatively judged for their decisions either.
The only points of contention I have in the whole debate is that eating meat, in and of itself, whether you bought it off a shelf or obtained it through hunting, does not make one a murderer; and, while it's fine to share ideas, demanding that others change their ways because you have an opinion, is unacceptable. If someone is curious and willing to listen, sure, chat all you want. However, telling them that their choices are wrong and that they must do something differently, isn't a practice I can support.
At the end of the day, as most people learned from the lion king, there's a circle of life. Things will die so other things can live. Plants will absorb the minerals and nutrients from the rotting corpses of so-called "higher" life forms, and those "higher" life forms will eat the plants to live. Those plant eaters will be eaten by other animals, who will eventually die and become fertilizer for the plants. The cycle continues. Eating animals is something that animals do all the time, and it's not condemned. News flash, humans are also animals. We have the ability to eat and gain strength from meat. You have the free choice to either partake in that activity or not, but make no mistake, that's your personal choice.
IMO, we should all eat more vegetables. Meats have become so prevalent that there's basically meat included in every meal of the day. That's a bit much. Eat a salad. Everyone should reduce their meat intake, at the very least. If you want to go all the way to being vegetarian or vegan, go for it. It's your choice, your life, your body, and you're free to use it, and/or abuse it, in whatever way you wish.
For me, the ethical problems of factory farms are definitely an issue. Personally, I'd rather see a regulatory solution for the treatment of animals, since it would improve the life of all of those animals (at least for the duration they're alive), and improve their situation when they are slaughtered, so it is more humane. After they have been slaughtered, my level of care about how they're treated, pretty much disappears. As long as the resultant product is safe and not harmful, I couldn't care less. I'm only concerned with their life from birth to death. After that, meh. Regulatory changes would be simple and more effective than trying to change the hearts and minds of everyone in an effort to have the pubic at large, stop eating meat; bluntly, trying to convince an entire society to do anything for it's own good, is pretty much impossible. I'm not sure what the "annoying vegans" (not all vegans, just the ones who get in people's faces about it), are trying to prove. They won't convince everyone, it's basically impossible. It's like they've taken on this impossible task and it's not going well, and they're steaming mad about it.... Bro, you did this to yourself. I believe the only way to put an end to the animal abuse in factory farms, is to regulate it. I don't know what that regulation looks like, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I have any ties to nor interest in becoming a politician/government decision making person. I know change is needed and I have no ability to enact that change, but I would vote for anyone who did.
I don't consider death, in and if itself to be inhumane. I consider torture to be inhumane. I consider forced imprisonment in a small space to be inhumane. I even consider suffering to death, it be inhumane. Euthanizing something, can absolutely be humane. I don't believe that factory farms are being humane by my standards.
I don't think that asking them to be humane to their flock is too much to ask. Our food deserves it. They're giving their life for your ongoing existence and enjoyment, the least we can and should do, is ensure they're not spending that life in pain.
Thoughtful comment, I really liked it. Thank you for sharing
I highly recommend you check out a book called "A Bold Return to Giving a Damn". It's about a cattle rancher who turned his ranch into a form of regenerate agriculture. One of his main point is that the current meat industry provides cheap meat that is subsidized by the environment. His ranch is called White Oak Pastures. Fascinating book and definitely changed the way I look at meat consumption. I still eat meat but my extended family raises a cow every year so I think its a little but better than the industrial food system currently at work.
Hey, edgelord case against veganism: meat is absolutely murder, but we treat workers poorly enough that literally everything you ever buy is probably murder, including corn. We are drowning in a river of innocent blood, and there are no clean hands. Trying to clean them before we get to shore is absurd.
And it's corollary: meat is extra murder, because those animals don't kill and butcher themselves.
'Other things are bad too' is not an argument I personally find convincing. Though I absolutely agree with you that we are all partaking in a horrible system where our standard of living is built on mountains of suffering.
Decent arguments. Little bit of what about-isms there. We could get into a whole, long, discussion about how people aren't treated much better in society, though we have the "freedom" to "choose" between equally terrible options to work for less than we need to survive, to "decide" what essential items we can afford and which we must do without, and to "earn" a living because we are not deserving of a life unless we work to get one.
But IMO, that would be more what about-isms.
This is also very contingent on the definition of what constitutes "murder". Where the generally accepted definition, according to the Oxford dictionary, is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Since the animals which are food are not humans, no murder has occurred. This is in line with the legal terms as well, as far as I understand, but legal terms will vary from location to location. I won't dwell on it too much. The fact is that many people, apparently including yourself, seem to conflate "the intentional act of killing something" with the term "murder", whether it applies or not, but the dictionary definition of the term is why I started this reply the way I did, indirectly, capitalism, and specifically the corporations that facilitate capitalism, are indirectly responsible for the suffering and death of more than a few humans. I would argue that they're responsible for a lot of it. Firing people who are otherwise doing acceptable work for reasons unrelated to their position or the work that needs to be done, such as for interpersonal issues or simply to "trim the fat" by reducing labor costs (firing long-term, highly paid workers to replace them with low paid, new workers) is one such example. A nontrivial number of those fired for reasons such as this may fall into depression and commit suicide, and the corporation is directly responsible for the circumstances leading to their death and therefore has committed murder; alternatively, they may terminate someone who has fallen ill, since they cannot do the job sufficiently anymore (does not meet expectations, kind of thing), and due to the illness, and now being unable to financially pay for the help they desperately need, they die. The corporation is again responsible for that death and therefore has committed murder.
I'm not sure that line of reasoning would stand up in court, and bluntly, IANAL, so I don't care to find out. Obviously there's more circumstances, I only described two. I'll let you imagine the rest.
The question of "is killing an animal for food, considered murder" is far more philosophical in nature. It's certainly a valid consideration, but legally, animals are not humans. Humans are also animals, but not all animals are humans, and certainly, the animals we eat (mainly chickens, cows, pigs, and lambs), are definitely and distinctly, not humans. Therefore the definition of murder, in the context that it is understood under the law, does not apply. Certainly we are, in some manner, whether directly or indirectly, responsible for the death of those animals, but murderers, we are not (unless you've actually committed the act of murder).
QED: eating meat is not, and should not be considered to be, in any way, shape, or form, committing, or otherwise endorsing, abeding, or having any role in anything that is, by definition, murder.
The phrasing of that kinda got away from me.
Moving on.
Certainly farmland accidents happen, and in those cases, the people who die, could be considered murdered, by the people who eat the product which they were farming at the time. Certainly that has happened, and will happen. Albeit indirectly, the people who demand the food that the person was farming at the time, could be considered ambiguously an accessory to the murder, at least. I don't think the court would agree with that line of logic at all, but, it is nevertheless, something that can be considered to be the case in a philosophical way. In those cases, where does the responsibility for that pertains death lay? With the company that employed them to death? With the consumers that demanded the product? Or is it nobody's fault and simply an accident. The courts, I believe, would either side with blaming the company, or ruling that it was an accident, never the customers fault. Philosophically, everyone is at fault.
As you can see, regardless of whether the product being farmed is grain, corn, or livestock like cattle or chickens (etc), those deaths are technically on all of our hands. Meat cannot be extra murder, unless the meat is human, in which case there's probably a lot of other crimes happening. It can't be extra murder because no humans have died in the creation of the meat; at least, no more than with any other product of farming.
Certainly, we, the consumers, are responsible for the deaths/killing, of animals for food (at least those of us who are not vegans), but we can certainly be held to account for the suffering of the animals we consume, when they were raised for the purposes of becoming food.
It's a small but important distinction. One only humans could make. What does that mean for ethics? That's going to be a very personal issue. Everyone's ethics vary slightly. If you consider that the product that is "meat" is akin to "murder" because you believe that murder isn't just a human on human killing, then it would be highly unethical to partake in such products. That is a personal moral and ethical choice, both to believe that, and resign yourself to never consuming the meat of an animal.
For me, whenever these things come into question, I always consider two things: the legal definitions and guidelines of it, and I attribute the philosophy of "do unto others" (I think everyone knows this one).
In the former, murder is bad, but murder is human vs human, so, no help on this from there. It's completely legal. In the latter case, I wouldn't want to be tortured while alive only to be killed for my meat. However, personally, I could not give any fewer fucks about what happens to my body after I'm dead. Eat me, for all I care. So, in that context, the suffering of the animals matters to me. However, eating meat after the fact is irrelevant. Therefore, I give all the shits I can give about the quality of life those animals have, but I could not care less whether they are eaten by humans, other animals, or if they simply decompose, afterwards.
This leads me back to my original reply. I want to see better conditions for these living animals. I feel we should accomplish that through legislation and regulation.
This needs to be in a BestOfLemmy post.
you don’t need to eat meat.
you don't know what anyone else needs.
The dissonance is real
Watch Dominion.
What he said
Or just don't watch gore?
If lab-grown meat becomes even half as good (and cheap) as slaughtered meat then I'd make the switch in a heartbeat. Not to mention, imagine being able to try out all sorts of exotic meats guilt-free, or being able to eat raw meat without risk of food-borne illness and parasites? Gimme some of that cruelty-free giant tortoise meat, lemme see what that gluttonous bitch Charles Darwin was on about.
it would be cool to taste human. breaking the most taboo thing on humankind, without even eating a part of an actual human
Plant based meats have been way more than half as good for a while (iirc some of them have even won blind tests), I don't get why people are so obsessed with lab grown versions.
But also, liking how someone tastes isn't a good justification for killing them, regardless of how good or bad the alternatives are. Fortunately there are tons of delicious vegan foods so it's a moot point
Be careful OP. There are angry meateaters among us using Lemmy.
among us
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Sus
Omg is that a susSy baka? im so scared they're amogus!!
I would hope that most people who have seen much of anything about industrial ranching would have a hard time not showing a bit of empathy.
Some descriptions of hell aren't as upsetting as seeing how those animals are kept and handled.
I only ever see meat eaters argue about what the body needs or how our teeth are meant for meat. There is no way to argue that the modern meat industry isn't horrific, I think some carnists that react strongly to vegans unconsciously know this and react with anger because of guilt and shame.
They’re gonna lash out again.
Yeah I just don't understand why vegans hate comedy documentaries so much/s
Become vegetarian
As Mike says, no half measures ;)
But in seriousness, going some/most of the way there is better than not at all. And most people transition over time rather over night too anyway. Every small step helps when it comes to the environment, personal health and ethics in my opinion.
Mike has clearly never had some rasmalai.
Unexpectedly good meme
I have stereotypical vegan friends (Somehow squeeze their veganism into conversation every time!) I have slowly tried to adjust my diet for doctor mandated health reasons for the better, never been healthier but I dare not mention it, I don't want to give them the satisfaction, one of them will try to take credit, I just know it. :P
As a vegan myself I notice the opposite a lot. Veganism becomes the topic of conversation IRL more because of everyone around me asking questions like "don't you miss bacon" and "how long have you been vegan now?" And "would you ever eat meat again".
And when it's not about veganism specifically they often bring up meat when talking about food they had and then instead of contributing to the conversation, since that feels disingenuous to my ethics and I'm not a fan of lying in general, I'll tell them "sorry I'm vegan".
Also a lot of the stereotypical vegans that end up bringing up veganism on their own all the time is mostly just due to them likely being activists and quite honestly having to deal with the worst of the worst trying to ruin their day every day. And that shit takes it's toll, not to mention directly staring a lot of what makes them physically sick and upset right in front of them day in and day out. Constantly being reminded of what to them is genuinely horrific. That can change a person and make them very jaded and cynical in life. And in that case, tact no longer becomes an issue to them because to them it's a matter of life and death, and they mostly see death and this becomes desperate to make a change, even if it's a little one.
Sorry if this made me look like a stereotypical one, I'm not trying to preach. Just trying to share what it can be like on the other side.
Also they totally would take credit. We would call it "planting the seed". Making you conscious of the choice and hope you come to your own decision on how to and when to make it. ;)
-edit
God that's a wall of text, I'm sorry -.-
You could always try telling them and then immediately dying as a prank. Unfortunately, it only works once...
Bold strategy
They were right though.
And they still are.
food is a big part of every culture and it is something everyone has to deal with several times a day. That already brings in a lot of opportunities where someone's diet is relevant to conversation. And, veganism goes beyond diet. I don't think they necessarily do it on purpose, you probably don't notice how often you bring up specifically the opposite of veganism.
I mean, there exists many options between the extremes of veganism and rampant factory farming. This isn't a dichotomy; we can have meat consumption without the need for industrialized meat production.
We may have to eat less meat though, I will concede.
What is an extreme is relative. Are we in an extreme because we don't tolerate slavery? Is having only one slave less extreme then? In the current context I guess you can see veganism as one end of the spectrum, but calling it an extreme has the connotation that it is an unreasonable position.
We can have meat consumption without the industrialized part, sure. But ethical veganism claims eating animals is wrong, regardless of how you kill them. Just like we now consider slavery to be wrong, regardless of how good the slave is treated.
Can’t live without some delicious red meat, no if ands or buts. I will(and have) hunt it down myself if I have to.
vegans have noble intentions but they are fighting the wrong battle: the root evil is not meat consumption per se but capitalism and the resource exploitation that it implies
Of course the root of evil is capitalism, but you have to understand that we would need to greatly reduce meat consuption to have the "ethical" way of breeding that most people expect. The reason why the animal exploitation is so bad is that it has to satisfy a demand that keeps growing. People expect to continue their eating habits and that companies should just be held accountable, change their ways and still produce the same quantities of meat/diaries/eggs.
The root evil is your meat consumption. If theres nothing wrong, then go to your local slaughter house and stand in line. If you dont like to do that you know what they feel. The feel the same fucking way about it as you do. And they dont get any sedation as they get during an execution. They get the first row experience to fucked up death.
Fuck your dumb ideas and go eat some fucking beans and shut the fuck up.
I would gladly go to a local slaughterhouse but alas all I have is factory meat around me.
found the guy with stocks in Tyson
You like to pretend that you care about what the animal feels, but you clearly just want to feel good about yourself by feeling superior to others. Why otherwise would you be this rude and obnoxious for no good reason? Do you think this behavior is likely to make people think "hmm, maybe he's right and I should just eat beans and shut the fuck up"? Of course not, you're just looking to feel superior. You have no actual interest in convincing others about the feeling of animals facing death.
The OP is not wrong, the capitalist system of exploitation is the root of the issue, and you're the obvious example of a misguided vegan.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
"Buying meat is unethical because of how the animals are treated" ~ sent from my iPhone made by child slave labor
I'm not saying veganism is bad. What I am saying is that people who think veganism is a moral high ground are wrong. I also think that veganism is a luxury to be even able to follow.
Edit after downvotes into the negative and shitty asshole responses:
Here comes the self-righteous assholes who don't want to have a discussion and instead throw around blame and shame at me. Congrats. Y'all are the reason people hate vegans which hurts your cause by pushing people away from reducing reliance on meat. Every downvote is proof that self-righteous vegans are assholes.You can be opposed to unethical treatment of animals and child slave labor. If someone tells me they are against slave labor, my response isn't ""buying products made by slaves is unethical" ~said by someone who eats factory farmed meat". It doesn't have to be one or the other.
I don't think people go vegan because they want a moral high ground, at least I know I didn't. People do it because they genuinely believe it's the right choice to make. And yes, having that choice is a luxury not afforded to everyone, but vegans are no more entitled than the people around them who also have the luxury of being able to choose not to support animal agriculture, but do so anyway.
You say people don't want to have a discussion while at the same time calling people who might actually engage in a discussion "self-righteous assholes". This leads me to believe you may not actually be looking for a good faith conversation.
The devil is in the details, but in most cases it's eating animal products that's the luxury.
https://www.veganeasy.org/discover/news/oxford-university-researchers-finds-vegan-diets-are-cheaper/
Sorry, how is it a luxury? Vegetables, grains, and legumes are far cheaper and healthier sources of calories and nutrition than meat, despite the government subsidies. This perception that you should eat McDonalds and rotisserie chicken every day if you don’t have money to buy groceries is so strange to me.
It's pretty ethical to grow and hunt your own food. Hunting even benefits the eco-system and animals haunted since the natural predators that used to keep deer, turkey, elk, and other game animals population in check are no longer prevalent.
Correct.
Also if we're to speak of cruelty and environment shit why don't vegans speak of the animals farmers need to kill in order to protect crops? Or the fuel spent by importing vegetables and fruits?
Now I'm not saying that meat is better since tastes are subjective and animals do get treated badly and raised in bad conditions but some of them live in titanium bubbles
Many vegans speak extensively about these topics, especially since they're used as a favorite "gotcha" by animal-ag supporters.
Wow, really brought out the online vegan brigade on this one.
Hell, vegans are just religious zealots without a deity.
You could reduce meat intake and buy higher quality meat whenever financially feasible. Then you help fight the problem but can still look down on vegans
This is solid advice, but... you know... don't look down on vegans maybe? They are trying to do the same thing (reduce animal suffering) but are able/willing to go above and beyond.
Or you could just not support abuse and murder. Also an option.
You will get more people to join your cause with a positive message: i.g. "Do these small steps to start" than a negative one, I.g. "If you don't go fully vegan, you are still part of the problem."
"Perfect is the enemy of good."
So it is easier to convince people to reduce meat consumption, which than makes it more likely that people will go vegetarian or vegan later
And i actually feel like vegans on the internet can be too aggressive, alienating people they could get on their side
If your goal when choosing what to eat is "look down on vegans", then you have a really shitty way of choosing what to eat.
Bruh,
If getting made fun of helps reduce the amount of meat that gets eaten, this seems very much like a good deal to me
Put simply, promoting veganism won't stop people from reducing, but promoting reducetarianism will stop people from going vegan
This is either brain rot written by someone who doesn't understand propaganda or a psy-op and I can't tell which. So if it is a psy-op, congratulations on making an effective one.
There's a difference between eating meat and condoning animal abuse. For most vegetarians this is impossible to comprehend it seems. But they will happily drive cars on liquefied dinosaurs, use plastics and buy phones which were made by exploiting children and poor people. While at the same time claiming fish is not meat.
You cannot pay for an animal to be murdered and In the same breath say you against animal abuse.
They aren't paying for animals to be murdered, they are paying for a product at the Wallymart.
Of course I can, because I know to use a dictionary. Abuse is not the same as murder. You can call me animal murderer, I'd give you that. But not abuser. I don't beat or molest animals. I don't maltreat them or starve them to death. They are kept safer than in wild, away from predators and have a life of luxury with constantly abundant food and no fear, until they fulfill a purpose that is meant for them. If anything am sheltering them far better than nature is.
No, there isn't. But people don't want to be confronted with this fact.
Neither do vegetarians want to face the fact most medications and almost all vaccines you take were tested on animals, if not produced by animals. So if you don't want to be a hypocrite and don't want to stop acting smug, I suggest stopping all medication and medicine use. I mean we don't want to condone animal abuse.
There's a lot to unpack here...
I don't see how you can not see the correlation of keeping animals trapped and in shitty situations to inevitably kill them when they're literally still children as not being animal abuse.
Liquified dinosaurs :')
In seriousness, veganism is about making the best changes you can. Nobody is perfect but you try to do the least damage you can do. Plus it's a spectrum, there of course will be some vegans that don't care/know much about how certain commodities are built on the suffering of others. Plus some "vegans" are just plant based and are just in it for personal health so they wouldn't care about the ethics in it all and the hypocrisy you talk about.
Also extra note. Don't look at them focusing on the suffering of animals meaning they don't care for human suffering. They do. When those at the bottom get brought up it will bring the others above them higher too. It's a two birds one stone kind of situation (pardon the hypocritical pun ;p)
I've never ever heard of a vegan say fish isn't meat. If a vegan is eating fish, they're not vegan (same goes for honey, but that's a different topic). They're a pescatarian that eats a lot of plant based foods.
The meat industry is organized animal abuse, there is no doubt about it. It doesn't have to be that way but by all accounts it is. If you can eat meat procured separately from these industrialized processes that is great, but that cannot be scaled to meet all current demands for meat.
I can source meat separately from industrialized processes, as can many others, if not all. The reason why they don't has nothing to do with condoning animal abuse it's pure convenience and price. But it's disingenuous to lump everyone together.
As far as sustainability is concerned, neither can everyone switching to plant diet be scaled up to meet the demand. People just assume animals are taking up arable land that can be used for human food production, which is not true. Huge amounts of pastures can't be used for anything else. More to the point animal feed is made from discard products of plant based foods, things like corn and wheat stalks. If you take animals out of the equation, something has to be done with that as well.
In the end you can down-vote all you like it doesn't change the fact our current food production is extremely optimized. You can't alter it easily without disturbing the balance. You want to reduce animal abuse don't buy cheap shit. Go to farmers market. But no, people are willing to come and preach here about morals while they happily ignore all the other things they don't want to make sacrifice on because they are too precious to them, but are happily telling the rest of us which sacrifices we need to make. If you want to get rid of something, get rid of whole "organic" movement. That growing method is extremely unsustainable and unaffordable for most people.
Also vegans don’t eat fish or any animal products.
Yup. Made a mistake.
I don't eat vegetables. Even raw carrots taste like bitter hell to me. Even with a nearly anti-vegan diet I can confidently say we have an ethical imperative to move away from animal products, with factory farming being the most fucked.
