I think Americans need to absorb a bit more global context about the left-right spectrum. I see people saying that policies like universal health care, access to abortion, basic worker rights and affordable education are "far left". Most of the proposed policies of the left in the US are centrist in the rest of the Western world. Unless you are advocating for a Communist regime along the lines of the Soviet Union or Maoist China, you aren't really "far left". Similarly, unless someone is advocating for a fascist dictator state, we should probably not call them "far right". Of course, that is what Trumpists advocate for, so they really are far right!
Unless you are advocating for a Communist regime along the lines of the Soviet Union or Maoist China, you aren’t really “far left”.
If you do that you definitely aren't, authoritarianism and far-left are mutually exclusive.
Council communists and Anarchists generally qualify for far-left status. (Or, differently put, council communism is methadone therapy for Marxists who don't yet dare make the jump to syndicalism).
While I would say that graph is more correct than the two-dimensional ones, many of us are fed in the west. (As a social libertarian/anarcho communist) I make the point that I don't believe authoritarians actually qualify significantly for any form of left or right. They are all about their authority primarily and doing what they wish to do. They will resort to any rhetoric or means to achieve their goals they think will serve them. Whether it is left or right.
Case in point Hitler, who is closely associated with fascism which is considered nominally right-wing. Absolutely aped the terminology and rhetoric of early 20th century socialism. Till it didn't serve him anymore. China who is more or less The Golden child of ml activists is more state capitalist than they are State communist. Because it suits those in power.
The graph more accurately might look like a deformed Dorito. Authoritarians being fluid and centrist. Not committed to being left or right. On the right side gradually sloping down through libertarians into capitalists/liberals on the far right. Somewhere neutral between authoritarian and actual libertarian. But the more true libertarian you trend the more left you absolutely trend. That's for sure.
Exactly. I like to keep things simple and boil things down to authority. I'm the only one allowed to define me, and I don't have the right to define others. If everyone has absolute freedom to be what they are, then by design no one has the right to define, exploit, marginalize or otherwise or oppress them. if anyone was oppressed, not everyone would have absolute freedom. Then on top of that we put societal contracts. "Here's a time period of my labor, would you trade it for that thing you have". "I'd like to give some of my extra things so that more people can have good things [taxation] "Here's consent, how about you?" "I go by [pronoun]."
Anarchism -> Maximum freedom for all Hierarchism-> Maximum freedom for the one on top.
Smarter people than me have talked about the nuances for ages so as I said, I like to simplify things. Fullyautomatedspacegayluxurycommunism ftw!
We're "not allowed" to. The concept of comparing our politics to elsewhere around the world is chastised. "It's not the same here!" "They have a longer history" "they share a common culture!" (far right for "skin color")
Any excuse under the sun to keep the right as being viewed as closer to "center" and to misrepresent centrist policies as "far left" so we get no progress and all the arguments.
It's really interesting how the right has embraced moral relativism on a case-by-case basis. Often it is a strategy to quarantine/localize ideas, so as to avoid the need to reconcile them to any broader worldview.
It's also a strategy for insulating ideas and events from history that they want to shelter from criticism, like criticizing slavery, theocracy, monarchism, etc. I've seen real cases in the wild where criticism of slavery was dismissed as "presentism", as inappropriately imposing present day moral values.
There are quite a few actual leftists on Lemmy. I don't think they're confused and as the meme suggests, they're rather vocal.
Meanwhile Trump and other far right people have tried to brand liberals as "radical left" which is just silly, but a lot of news sources seem content to parrot alt-right rhetoric. One thing the Republican Party has always been good at is poisoning the well.
You're half right. Americans as a whole don't need to absorb context, but American conservatives do.
The rest of us are well aware of what's going on. There are democrats in our government that are pretending to be against "socialism", but they are old and these clearly dated policies aren't going to last.
I get the feeling most of that nonsense was just fear mongering to force Biden into office instead of Bernie four years ago.
At least online, it seems like the only Americans who call themselves far left agree those are all centrist positions. It's only "centrists/progressives*" (moderately far right Americans) and other flavors of far right who still often dont generally call themselves far right (trump enthusiasts, alex jones types, proud boy types) who label basic things like universal health care a far left idea or just call it impractical atm.
*I feel like 10 years ago, people who were at least moderately left were the main people using this term, but in the last few years, people right of center have been using the label to try limit progress by pretending they're just trying to be practical/realists about what can actually be done.
Those terms are so vague and have so different meanings to a lot of people that I often avoid using them... I recently read the idea that egalitarian=left // strong hierarchy=right and it kinda makes sense, but it's still quite debatable
To be “on the left” at minimum you need to be totally opposed to the capitalist system.
From there, there are many ideologies to choose from whether authoritarian (like Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, Stalinism, etc.) or anti-authoritarian: mutualism, communalism, one of the many strains of anarchism, etc.
Also if you’re authoritarian I’d say it’s questionable whether you’re still on the left.
"I speak alternative facts, making others do the work of figuring out what I meant."
vs.
"I have researched in-depth and know what I am talking about and why."
Tbf there are probably far-right people who are more like the latter. Just b/c I do not recall ever hearing those arguments does not mean that they don't exist!
Tbf there are probably far-right people who are more like the latter. Just b/c I do not recall ever hearing those arguments does not mean that they don't exist!
Those people are working with the heritage foundation and other far right think tanks. They understand that their brand of mask-off fascism is problematic to a lot of people, so they allow their ideas to percolate through various right wing media outlets and entertainment personalities. By the time their ideologies reaches the mind of your average voter they've been neatly repackaged as "hey we're just asking some questions here, we just want to get the facts straight."
Thanks. I have no time lately but perhaps I should research them directly and actively then, e.g. to find out things like if the COVID response was used to bring population numbers down as a means of control and possibly thought to be beneficial for the sake of mitigation of the effects of climate change. But probably I am giving too much credit for even that much level of strategic thought towards climate change effects for the survival of humanity and perhaps it is solely "we do not need the masses anymore so let's kill them off, or at least not help at all with saving them", i.e. think of myself first, only, and always, and nothing else.
Real (enough) to someone, I suppose.
Right up until they aren't anymore. e.g. when someone chooses not to take the vaccine, somehow MANY of those (I wonder if perhaps nearly all?) end up in hospitals, spreading their diseases to others and putting stress on the already-overworked system.
I legit would not judge someone who for whatever reasons decided to withdraw from society, like Amish, and not take the vaccine, but DO social distance for the sake of others, and then die but like... fully by their own, informed & rational choices according to their own valuation of priorities in their life. I fully respect that.
It is the hypocritical nature of those who are not informed, yet act to block others' access from knowledge and benefits of society, that I am against. These people will judge themselves later on, once they finally cannot escape into their fantasies quite so comfortably, except by then they have already dragged others along with them. In short: they are shocked, Shocked I tell you, SHOCKED to find that actions have consequences. But... they should not have been so shocked?! An ounce of preparation is worth a pound of cure, as the saying goes.
TLDR: it is irresponsible, childish behavior, from adults who should know better.
I’m not far-left, I’m extreme far-left. Radical far-left if you will. I want everyone to have healthcare and adequate housing. (spooky noises)
Luxury gay space communism or bust
FALGSC Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism
Whoaa there. That's a bit extreme, don't you think? Maybe turn it down a bit. Best we can do is Universal Debt and cardboard boxes.
I just a Mutualist who wants worker consumer cooperatives and housing cooperatives to be the only way to form businesses. Unless someone has a direct stake in the firm, they shouldn't be able to benefit from it. No rent seeking, no venture capital, no bureaucracy.
Both political extremes are as bad as the other. The only sensible course is to allow our political and corporate systems to destroy our environment unchecked while a tiny elite of billionaires funnel up all the remaining wealth of our societies.
You just described centrists
This meme is not glorifying either side.
It just says that the far left says they are far left but the far right denies it.The poster is a Communist, this is a Communist meme.
Your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking if you believe either that or the comment you're replying to.
I know your joking, but the extreme left is just as batshit crazy as the extreme right. They are called extreme for a reason.
The both sides bullshit comes in when people are comparing far right nutbags like Trump to lefties like Bernie.
Bernie wants a livable wage for everyone, and Trump wants to kill trans people! They are not two sides of the same coin.
Honest question, not trying to start an argument or anything, but what is extreme left when we're talking about the current political landscape actually? Cause when I look at US politics I don't see anything close to what I'd consider extreme going on on the left side. Maybe individual people with no significant political power talking about overthrowing the whole capitalist system but yeah, they don't seem to have any actual political power.
I'm an extreme centrist. Between absolute anarchist worker self-management and overreaching socialist government regulation, I think we should reach a healthy middle.
Based
I think a lot of the far-right is just fine with people calling them as far-right, a lot self-identify even as such
Surprisingly not their media though which makes a point to complain about politics in everything and then pretends they aren't being political about everything they say and do. And claims it's just interacting with reality as the center. They love to claim that they decide where reality is so they can decide where center is.
ITT: not one person who knows what far left is.
Left is to redistribute the land. Far left is to redistribute the landlords too.
I don't really get the far left image, is it saying people on the far left are sponsored by tyre and racing companies?
Dale Earnhardt has been co-opted into a leftwing figurehead, mostly just to piss off people on the right
We love Dale Earnhardt
It's absurdist comedy, a deconstruction of the soyjak meme format.
Yes
Raise hell, praise Comrade Dale.
not true, the current wave of fascism across the world force leftists to not tell their ideology openly, hope things change for good
I have the impression it's the opposite. The left is becoming more militant to contain the right leaning extremists.
I'm old enough to remember when all Americans thought that the Nazis were the bad guys.
Someone's gotta kill the Nazis the second time around...
Ah no buddy, I'm as far left as you can go, you got this backwards
We could do that, or we could kill fascists.
The left doesn't really have any political power under capitalist hegemony where there's economic consensus in the political and ruling class. There are many leftists but essentially no political left, and at the same time politics can no longer impact our economic arrangements, irs basically a spectacle we react to from different angles. What we have are centrist liberals both portrayed as "far left" by the right, some who ignorantly react to that with "yes, I am far left!" And those who actually have a visceral hate for capitalism have almost always been dealt with on common ground between centrist liberals and the right.
"Truth" and "Right-wing" don't associate.
when you're neither a communist nor a social democrat, but something in between
"I am a left-winger but not particularly interested in aligning myself with a specific ideology" 🧔🏼
"I just want to live in a society that uses some of the value its working class generates to improve the lives of the general population in any meaningful way."
Ah yeah, I just say "I'm a realist and we are all doomed".
Easier than saying all that then having to admit it ain't happening.
"I'm just rational and I don't like when people suffer"
Just say you're an anti-tendency leftist.
I don't know. People will proudy tell you they are staunch conservative anti socialist, all while collecting a check from the government
Between Dale and Amelia, the Earnhart family has been through a lot.
*In the US
Go to most other Western societies and your version of "far-left" is new, naive, and conservative. In my country, most right-wingers back all the "socialism"—by American definition—that we have.
Y'all got decades of catching up to do. I admire the surge, but you've got a lot of examples around the world of how to actually do it. All the while also understanding what you apparently claim to stand for.
Keep enjoying that Us versus Them game though, since that's more what Americanism is into. Love that division. Good job 👍 /s
This meme references the "far-left," ie Communists, Socialists, Anarchists, etc, not the Social Democrats. If it was referring to the American "left," it would say "liberals."
How's your political propaganda out there?
ALL of our major media outlets are for profit corporations and serve as propaganda outlets.
NONE of our major media outlets speak honestly about progressive policies.
ALL of our right wing propaganda equates socialism with "the left" and "the left" is portrayed in the absolute worst ways possible. They constantly talk about Venezuela and eating rats (they say we want that). The argument about abortion is almost entirely to be at opposition with "the left" and to paint us as "baby murderers." Any conversation about taxation is equated to theft from "hard workers" to be given to "lazy slobs who pop out babies to collect free money." They specifically take opposition to anything "the left" wants so they don't have to have policies other than "hate the other."
"In polite conversation, one should never mention religion or politics, as it never ends well"
Americans - "Hold my beer"
"Yeah, but if you go to those countries in Europe, you'll find that almost no one likes the socialized health care they have in their country." - Every American conservative and libertarian ever trying to defend the freedumb of paying thousands of dollars out of pocket each year for basic medical treatment.
I love the NHS in my country. I'm currently in hospital right now and the staff are fucking amazing but it's underfunded so I got stuck in an isolation room all of Saturday after being transferred to another hospital. Anyway the staff isn't the problem, it's the lack of support and funding that's killing the quality of the service which everyone i.e patients, staff, even politicians all agree on.
Middle-of-the-road person: "You are not in a culture war or an ideology war. You are both in a CLASS war, run by billionaires who are the REAL source of your pain. They use the six corporations that control all the news to distract you and keep you fighting with each other so that they . . . the rich . . . can run off with all the f*cking money."
Welcome to being a leftist who's so fucking stupid they think they're a centrist.
I think that NutWrench is making a joke.
I think that the key difference here that would make two people who agree with this statement a centerist or a leftist is whether or not they feel visceral hatred for the right or if they treat them like human beings.
The economic left/right scale is and has always been a measure of which side of the class war you support.
The "class war" used to oppose nobility to the rest of the population. Nobility has been mostly replaced with capitalists. Same opposition.
Far right: everything is black and white.
Far left: everything is blue and pink.
Reality:
Both sides see in black and white, but for far different reasons, the far left want to eliminate the concept of profit over people, while the far right want to eliminate people that dont fit inside their rigid and arbitrary 'moral' structures.
The true beauty of the atom.
That is because their truth is embarrassing.
But they all say "I speak the truth"
the fuck
They reject being labeled by the left, it's the same how the left doesn't like "woke" any more.
The problem with the word woke is that it was specifically about racial inequality and then the right made it synonymous with everything they hate about lgbtq people. White Christian Nationalism is the real mind virus.
No, we think woke is hysterical because no right wingers know what it means. I'll happily call myself woke, but I also use it as a sarcastic pejorative
I'm far left on economic issues and issues of bodily autonomy and freedom of speech.
Being in favor of everyone having free speech is left wing. Being even slightly against free speech is authoritarian.
What exactly do YOU call it when you can be arrested and/or locked up for speaking words of criticism toward a person or thing?
I feel like you're intentionally using a definition of left wing that is essentially "Every thing I like is Left, everything bad is right". Most people think of absolute free speech as a right wing position, mostly because theyve listened to people who identify as left talk about free speech curtailment to suit them for a long time
Most people think of absolute free speech as a right wing position
it used to be the right wingers that wanted to censor everything back in the 1990's, now it's the democrats that want to censor everyone for equally stupid, but different reasons.
All censorship is bad. whether it's a private corporation with a monopoly or a government doing it doesn't matter, all censorship is bad.
Also if republicans are more likely to allow people to say what they want, why should I vote for democrats? Free speech and freedom from religion was the very first law to ever be written in the US.
Both extremes are obnoxious
"I want to eradicate non-whites and install a christo-fascist dictator" is as obnoxious as "all people deserve housing and healthcare and a system based on extracting all excess profit from workers is exploitation"
Still relevant, more so than whatever side you are picking from both shitty choices.
"Ethnonationalism is awesome" and "equality is a good and achievable goal" are not remotely equal in terms of how obnoxious it is, unless you legitimately sit in between those two.
