This it the bottom so far you mean.
Its hard to imagine how it could dive down even further but to their credit those mossad lads are clever propagandists. But I don't know like.
Sadly war sucks ass.
If it was a command post then there must be a path for Israel to attack. It’s not like Hamas gets to use “one weird trick” to exclude their command center from being a valid target.
If Israel thought it was a military target, did every thing else right, but sucked up then it’s a sucky product of urban war.
If Israel knew it was really only a hospital and attacked anyway — then they are morally and strategically fucked. Rightfully so. (Kinda like how other countries have also overreacted to a terrorist attack and gone after the wrong target).
And of course the reality of all this probably doesn’t matters because a large number of people make up their mind first and from then on ignore and other intelligence even when it’s gathered.
those mossad lads are clever propagandists
I believe Mossad is special forces and intelligence gathering, not PR/propaganda dissemination. These are the agencies you're thinking of. That's like saying Navy Seals or the CIA are responsible for white house press briefings.
Judging from the comments, we can go lower.
"Truly this is the bottom"
Conservatives everywhere brandishing shovels: "Challenge accepted"
I like your outlook. Besides your general observation of the Lemmy hivemind, let us know what you think about the conflict itself
It's like everyone's opinion is "my tribe is always right and deserves all the sympathy, the other tribe is always wrong and deserves all the suffering". No one cares about solutions or examining why a conflict has persisted for 80 years. Humans are so predictable.
It's not even "my tribe".
Hardly anyone posting here is Israeli or Palestinian. It's just distracting nonsense to divide us. Pick a side plebs. Look, those people have picked the other side. Hate them!
Hey this guy hasn't picked a side, get them!
To be fair it isn't the Israeli or Palestinian population is their governments. The populations are just sorta a second thought given both seem to be majority against it.
Fighting a culture war to prevent you fighting a class war.
I wish two groups of people determined to kill each other could take it away from the civilian population, to say nothing of using human shields and attacking irrespective of potential collateral damage and non combatant deaths
More like two groups of people determined to kill civilian populations. Keeping it away from civilians would defeat the whole purpose.
I think it's older than 80 years. I recall reading about old men spitting at each other over rights to fuck the prettiest goat in Mesopotamia way before Churchill took a shit.
No, we're finding new ways to commit familicide though!
And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?
Using the hospital for anything other than helping people is a bottom. They are both trash entities.
They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.
Demanding an evacuation of a hospital full of patients, under the threat of bombardment, only for those patients to die of complications for not being treated, this is just a more silent mass murder.
It would be cool if Hamas didn't fire rockets from the vicinity of schools of hospitals though wouldn't it?
These two points are not antithetical.
It would be cool if the counter battery from a highly technical country hit the rockets instead of collapsed the building. Which is entirely possible.
To people saying it's justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?
Yeah, you know they wouldn't, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That's how you know this isn't about Hamas.
Very good point! I will steal it and pretend I'm as smart as you
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That's kind of like saying "If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn't it just take Kyiv?" Because it can't. There's a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
I don't think your comparison holds up as the double standard you think it is. Isreal have been bombing locations that potentially hold their own civilians being held as hostages.
Can't tell if you're just trying to sound ironically dumb or not?
Israel would storm it's own hospital with troops as would any other country. Bombs were used in Gaza before there was security on the ground. Dropping special forces off in the middle of Hamas held territory would turn into Black Hawk Down 2
Without being too serious, don't give the terrorists good ideas 🤣
You think Israel would just let them take one of their hospital in the first place ? Why would that happen in the first place ? There would be an immediate military intervention , before they are deeply embedded
In Palestine tho, hamas does what it wants. And nobody is there to stop them. So they already are in the hospitals, and in the streets leading to hospital, and watching the neighborhood where those are.
Who would think that in a war, the people opposing you would be treated differently than your own people? This is the reality of war and not specific to this conflict.
The question is do Jewish people expect mercy from the one above? Or do they think the lord is someone they'll explain themselves to and is supposed to be their friend and just be like yeah sweet? Like imagine how disappointed that a higher power or super intelligence would be 🤣
That's because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children...
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I'm absolutely fine with them killing each other. I'm not okay with the fact that they're both using innocent civilians as pawns.
He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
Has there even been any evidence of that?
Putting aside the lack of evidence of this, and the Israeli government's history of being caught lying about this kind of thing, how many civilians is it defensible to kill per Hamas militant, and does the calculus change if they're children?
...or are we taking the super credible IDF line and saying the infants are Hamas militants?
Israel at least has a government and a democracy, and the government even has been somewhat honest with the NSO group and their crappy spyware tools - though I'm not sure why any of this needs to involve bombing hospitals or why "a functional democracy" has to be defended with such fervour, but hey at least we can hold onto the hope that democracy itself will mean that there will be a degree of accountability for those in power
Tactical placement and all haha
We need a hell of a lot more evidence to support that than we've seen, it would still run into major problems with proportionality/distinction standards regarding all the civilians they killed in and around the hospital, and it wouldn't make a scratch with regard to the other civilian infrastructure they've targeted.
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it's okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
First of all, you're either ignorant or an idiot if you think what Israel is doing is "indiscriminate".
More importantly, what's your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
The bottom so far
Does no one remember the 1 million innocent Iraqis we killed based on a lie?
I would argue that is the most recent rock bottom we have come to since world war II.
We bombed people in their homes relentlessly. They were not going after military targets, it was an indiscriminate slaughter of mostly innocent people. Hundreds of thousands of children.
We have committed genocide purely for profit and power, very recently. Remember that when our government tries to defend Israel's actions. They are following our playbook.
There have been leaked conversations from Israeli officials stating that the war between them and Hamas helps them maintain power over Israeli citizens. They are creating more terrorists on purpose to leverage control over their people. What else happens when your family gets eradicated in a bombing? You go after those that are responsible, and joining Hamas is the easiest route to exact your revenge on those who killed your family.
That study was pulled for being ridiculous. The Iraq Body Count Project estimates 7300 civilian deaths over a far larger operations area, with far more forces involved, March 21 to May 1.
Nowhere near the nightmare fuel of total familicide 🤣
Do people think Hamas wouldn't hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren't a concern
Do people think that there can't be two bad guys in a story? This isn't a good vs evil fight.
"Good guys" are a myth invented by Hollywood to sell action figures
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story?
You're not going to like the answer...
ok but if they're hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
Depends. Are they artillery spotters. Are they leadership trying to claim to be in a safe you can't tag me zone. Did they just momentarily hide their guns too. Ya gotta secure that shit one way or another otherwise you'll get another massacre.
There are no good answers
Is that really what we're debating? We all know it isn't.
What's important is can they get away with it before losing the support of those propping them up.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of "shock and awe" did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go "take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida"?
Anything Israel are doing has been done before by their allies. They know it's shady as fuck, but also know they got away with it too.
When the war on Iraq and Afghanistan started, I stood with my children, one in a stroller outside of Dick Cheney 's house in silent protest. During the Vietnam war I made several trips to Washington DC to protest the war. There is no upside to war. What we can do today, is call, email your senator and congressman that you want the killing to stop, you want the USA to stop funding this genocide. Call every day, it only takes a few minutes and if everyone did that, we would have an impact.
We did actually. With embedded reporters and human rights activists keeping an eye on things to make sure. There aren't a ton of headlines about the US bombing hospitals because we avoided doing that. Shocking, I know.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
I was a teenager when that happened and didn't give a fuck about what's going on in the world, honestly. I didn't particularly care for 9/11 either tho, so there's that.
So, what're the chances you've got nothing to say about the cache of weapons & explosives they found under the hospital along with the fact that it was indeed a Hamas outpost?
???
After all you're educated enough on the subject that you're aware it'd been suspected as a Hamas outpost for years, yes?
???
Wonder how many people you've personally lied to that've seen through the manipulation and propaganda.
And to save you the trouble of responding, fake news, planted goods, paid actors - pick one and go fuck myself. Got it.
oh, i'm sure it can go lower. just give it time
So what have the israelis actually found??
What I saw was a handful of weapons and a laptop. Not some headquarters
Very unconvinced so far. But the fog of war and disinformation is in full swing
They release proof of the hostages being taken there directly after the attack.
It looks as if Hamas sensed the attack coming and pulled out before the IDF arrived
All the doctors there claiming there never was any Hamas there are kind of full of shit - if people with a meat cleaver walking the hallways having people with bags on their heads in tow is normal there I'm not sure what to think anymore...
Informal fallacies are best fallacies.
Argument from incredulity is "this sounds absurd, therefore it's false." That's not what this is, this is just pointing out absurdity.
Think about it again, what's the difference?
By the way, I didn't say that this post claims it's false. It's worse. This post begs the reader to claim it's false on the authors behalf
It's sort of getting debated because it was used as the place where hostages where kept and where Hamas militia were operating from. But I guess that wasn't significant enough to raise eyebrows.
Hamas should be operating out of a Palestinian military base.
(/s and if you're not sure why please do look it up)
i used to support 🇵🇸 then they paraded innocent cadavers through their streets. Even i a communist have my limits
But bombing is always criminal. IDF are cowards to not storm in with swords shields
Please for the love of God let this be the bottom
That's exactly why this isn't the bottom
It's amazing that people are even questioning taking out Hamas... Do they actually not understand that the reason the children are in danger is because they have hesitated when Hamas has done this in the past - using the children as human shields?
What kind of absolute sociopath would trade the thousands of lives Hamas will take if they're allowed to live, just because they use the world's humanity against it?
When it costs one life to save millions and there is no choice because the evil Hamas has set this price, it must be paid.
Shame on Hamas for putting these children in danger. May they rot in hell for their horrifying, demonic and evil sin.
The problem is that Hamas is not just an organization, it's also the ideology of resistance to the Israeli occupation. You can't take out an ideology. Even if Hamas the organization is gone, another one will take its place.
The only way to take out such an organization is to eliminate the reason why it exists. It's definitely not easy, and it takes a lot of negotiations and goodwill, making amends and getting over a lot of bad history. But waging war is achieving the exact opposite of that, and only creating the conditions for future conflicts.
I think they're aiming for plan B. Commit genocide so there's no one left who maintains that ideology.
The trouble is, the reason Hamas and similar groups exist it that Israel exists. Many people in Palestine, and also people in neighbouring countries and many Muslims who aren't even directly involved, believe that the whole place should be a pure Muslim country. I've literally seen people protest for this on the streets here. How do you suggest that solution should be enforced?
They will not accept a country that has women and LGBTQ rights, music festivals, etc. in between them. They protested and attacked these targets for a reason for several decades now.
I just wish the people who wish for the reason Hamas exists to be gone would at least be honest about all the consequences it entails. Otherwise this is just a very comfortable position of moral high ground where people can claim they protect the victims but they won't think any further.
eliminate the reason why it exists.
Well I think everybody knows exactly how to do that then, and it's the exact opposite of what's happening right now.
It's almost like Israel and it's supporters are shocked that a resistance movement formed in response to them murdering civilians and destroying homes of innocent families. Maybe it's not the moral response, but no one can claim to be surprised by it.
Killing the children now will definitely save them from being killed later. Infallible logic.
To be clear, if some criminal has human hostages you're fine if the building they are in is torched?
Not the same thing. The hostage takers in your example are only posing a danger to the hostages themselves. There is no outside harm caused by deciding not to act. Hamas on the other hand poses a real danger to Israel. Not counter attacking Hamas would result in attacks on Israeli citizens, so Israel has to act. Hamas is using the hospital as an unethical way of shielding itself from such counter attacks because they know Western war philosophy aims to minimize civilian casualties, so attacks on hospitals hurt Israels global support. However, by operating from within a hospital, Hamas are making the hospital a valid military target. Minimizing civilian casualties goes both ways. You don't attack hospitals unless they are a valid military target and you don't set up military operations inside hospitals so as to prevent them from becoming valid military targets.
Shame on Israel for treating a people the way they have for so long so that the only outcome could be Hamas.
If you torture an animal and it bites, who's to blame? People like you have a very short term memory it seems, unwilling to look at how this situation was brought about.
You cannot treat people the way Israel has treated them and then get up in arms when you meet resistance.
People aren't animals, though. They can take responsibility for their own decisions.
Also, where do you draw the line? You could take the same argument the other way around and claim Israel doesn't actually commit war crimes. It's because most of them are Jewish and they have been mass murdered multiple times throughout human history. They are now just fighting tooth and nail for having a safe place at least once in history.
It doesn't work to be on one side if people want to resolve this conflict. Unless you literally want the other side to be completely annihilated.
Dogma detected
I pretty much stop listening when the word ‘evil’ is used.
You sound like the IDF and I don’t trust or respect your POV because of your obvious bias.
Look at how many Palestinians have been killed vs Israelis. Just look at the numbers. What kind of psychopath is willing to kill even more people who have been being killed and oppressed for almost a century?
If this is a justification you accept for this level of violence from Isreal, then you can't argue against anything Hamas has done without being a hypocrite.
And on a purely emotionless evaluation of the numbers, this kind of response from Isreal hasn't worked for 80 years, but they keep killing innocent people. Maybe it's time to try something else. Unless of course that's not actually the reason.
"WHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO THIS? Your fighting, so you watch everyone around you die, THINK MARK, you'll outlast every fragile, insignificant being on this planet. You'll live to see this world crumble to dust and BLOW AWAY!
Everyone, and everything you know, WILL BE GONE... WHAT WILL YOU HAVE AFTER 500 YEARS?"
You sound like Marks Dad...
You think it's the bottom now? Just wait 72 hours...
Aids, bombs and petrol. Nah I actually hope it doesn't go there but I can totally see people choosing to be assholes while having the time of their lives. Absolutely not cool but hey man if earth was a television channel for the aliens, ahem, we'd probably be pretty far out in the shit sticks
Nah. We got several floors below this one, miss. You must be new here. Next floor?
Are those the floors the terrorists were hanging out or were those the floors they found the hostage bodies on?
Can't keep track these days.
Whatever fits their current narrative.
Sanity keeps falling out of the Overton window like it's an oligarch visiting the Kreml.
If you kill the babies who tf is going to continue the fighting over this worthless desert for another century?? SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!
It's not worthless, there's 500 million dollars worth of gas north of Gaza that Israel wants to secure. They're already stealing it and have been for years. And the 75 year long occupation must end of course.
Let's set it on fire and put it on YouTube so no one can have it and everyone is pissed!! Truck yeah!
$500mm is a fraction of what it costs to secure it. That just cannot be it.
Have they tried not genociding?
Have you tried not justifying murdering babies and sick, defenseless people?
Holy crap - this place is crawling with hasbara.
There's not a lot to discuss really...both sides are utterly evil. One side used women and babies as a shield, the other side pulled the trigger.
Both actions are indefensible and pure evil.
While this is technically correct on the surface, it doesn't really tell the whole story imo.
Israel is a nuclear power that has the ability (and clearly the willingness) to eradicate Palestinians from its territory. Hamas is a guerilla militant group. Yes they're both evil, but more practically, only one has the ability to end this conflict, and it's Israel.
The way you phrase it poses an impossible dilemma for Palestinian resistance. Non-violent resistance is outlawed and slaughtered (anti-BDS law, massacre of the Great March of Return, assassinations of peace activists, international smear campaigns, etc.). Violent resistance is impossible on equal standards as Israel maintains air superiority over occupied Palestine - separate infrastructure would be bombed. So we have a ghettoized population, under siege, under blockade, under air monitoring. What option is left for them? Hidden military infrastructure, tunnels, arms smuggling - and this all gets immediately condemned.
We try to hold these populations to the standards of international law - but morally, the abstraction starts to break down. It's easy for a country like the U.S. to abide by some of these standards on the surface - we can have exposed military infrastructure, because we have SAM sites, we have intercontinental ballistic missiles, first-class fighter jets, etc. We've heard plenty about the perspectives that purport to justify the Israeli/U.S. offensive, that seem on the surface to make our military efforts legitimate. But (from the media at least) we rarely hear about the narratives in support of the opposing side - 75 years of ethnic cleansing, land theft, crushing military occupation, siege, perfidy, random massacres and apartheid. They have a legitimate cause and grievances. So we have to actually consider what avenues of recourse are even available to them to pursue that cause. Otherwise we're essentially just telling them to "quiet down and die". On the broader scale, it's like saying, it's forbidden to punch while you're lying on the ground, while you tackle somebody and beat them to death.
That being said, of course certain things are both war crimes and not essential to resistance - i.e., killing unarmed civilians - to whatever extent Hamas militants actually did engage in this (we know they killed some, and we know the IDF killed some as well - as well as the 13-20k+ civilians Israel has killed at this point).
And this is not to give credence to Israeli claims of repurposing, either. The standard under international law is to prove that each individual peace of infrastructure is actively being used for military purposes, and that its strategic value outweighs the casualties from shelling it, and Israel has not been meeting that standard overall by any metric.
On the false preposition that an air duct is hiding Hamas.
Depends how you invade. If there's nothing there to shoot at then there'll be no shooting.
Ok yes but Israel is invading so it's ok right
Twitter is full of professional pearl clutchers
Whether you agree or not, comparing someone talking about bombing and killing children on ventilators to "pearl clutching" is pretty grim, my dude.
Let's all rally around this.
No one is debating that at this point, anyone aware of the situation knows for a fact that this is a genocide, just like the one US did in Iraq and Syria, and just like isis and alqaeda, hamas is a cia puppet org. Everyone realized that, everyone except the US
It’s against TOS to defend Israel so this is a giant echo chamber
