Come one come all to the Lemmy-verse! It's nice and cozy here, we do have some "bad parts of town" but you can do an instance block and not deal with them lol
OMG. I just discovered Lemmy yesterday after being a Redditor for a decade. I deleted my Reddit account after the insane level of suppression I've endured over the past year and was all set to go cold turkey when I found out about Lemmy! Praise the sweet lil' six pound, eight ounce baby Jesus!!
Hopefully .world will serve as a quarantine instance for all the cringe-ass former redditors who love strawmen and reductionism and lame as fuck sayings like "tankie triad" and "narwhal bacon"
We are actually defederated from 2 of them on World, but Lemmy.ml is also the community run by Lemmy code contributors so a lot of people are hesitant to let it go.
In the past week I caught a 7 day ban for "misinformation" (x3, then for reposting a link to the mod logs, "skirting the rules", "repeated offenses" etc.) from /c/WorldNews for accusing Democrats of being complicit in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. An actual fact - tens of billions of dollars in arms sent to an ongoing genocide/ethnic cleansing by Biden. No problems like that on lemmy.ml. That really says it all for me. Lemmy's basically just a fediverse reddit, with the same mod structure - if mods abuse their power, and admins don't keep them in check, it's time to ditch the instance.
By the way, Lemmy itself was created by Dessalines, the admin of lemmy.ml. Who I collaborated with briefly on building some of the UI that you're using right now to read this. Very thorough guy.
I caught a 7 day ban in microblog memes for "whataboutism" after I pointed out that leftists were not responsible for the democrat's loss, their actions would have been wildly unpopular whether we told them or not.
Love everything about reddit but inexplicably wish to leave it?
Hate the idea of an english speaking internet that doesn't slavishly adhere to the party line of the US alphabet agencies?
Do you think the parable of the nazi bar is bunch of hokum?
Do you have shrieking anger towards people who refused to support genocide while having shrieking anger at (usually the same) people rejecting decades long debunked accusations of genocide made by the perpetrators of aforementioned genocide?
Join the lemmyverse! We have racism! We have homophobia! We have trans misogyny! We have daily 5 minutes hate!
And if anyone tells you different, have you considered they're a paid shill by the notorious gay sex haver Putler??
What's your point here? Are you automatically assuming that only because I'm against China, NK and Russia (mainly because the latter would gladly bomb my home any given moment and the former two would hand over weapons), I somehow think America is an angel that hasn't been violating human rights since forever?
From what I can tell, this tankie stuff is bullshit. In the years I've been here, I've seen close to zero 'tankie' content from any of these supposedly tankie instances. There's like maybe one or two people on those instances who might fit the description if you search for them. Meanwhile, literally every day there are posts spitting on these supposed tankie instances. (And actually, it's again a very small number of people complaining - but they put their crap into cute memes to get traction).
I don't like the idea of shouting slurs at entire instances. In my view, if you hate those instances so much - just block them. Problem solved. No need to spew hate all over lemmy.
I have a very different experience. When Hexbear was still federated with the large instances it was total mayhem. They would turn every thread political, constantly spam images of dictators like Stalin and Mao, and swarm anyone who disagreed. I've seen them deny the wrongdoings of China and the Soviet Union quite often, which is probably also what's necessary if you spam Mao and Stalin unironically.
I'm quite left of center myself, at least relative to most people I know in real life. But these people seemed totally insane. It was probably also a numbers game, since Hexbear was relatively large at the time compared to basically every other instance. So maybe this was just an annoying minority. But nevertheless I'd never purposefully go there, and I'd recommend anyone to stay away. It's way better than for instance a Trumpist/far-right instance, but I'd rather avoid both.
That does sound bad. If that was my experience, I guess I might actively try to avoid them too. But as it happens, I just rarely see any hexbear stuff anyway. So the fueling of cross-instance conflicts feels unnecessary and a bit icky to me.
Perhaps that's because your instance is defederated from them? They were all over the place before most other major instances defederated from them. They are still all over the place if you're on an instance that federates with them. I had to manually block their bullshit when I was on Yiffit. I don't have to on Pawb or Lemmy.World.
When hexbear federatedn with SJW, I spent a day arguing Russia invading is bad actually, North Korea isn't a democratic utopia, and China isn't a shining pillar of socialism. Then I blocked them all because that was exhausting. So idk if hexbear is still so tankie, but they definitely were at that point.
Hexbear defederated from my instance for being authoritarian Nazis. What triggered this decision? A vote organised by the instance's admins, to choose whether or not to defederate from the bears. You cannot make this shit up.
Oh and the vote itself was started because of them brigading us, calling us a bunch or Nazis. So, yeah.
My personal opinion, for those who are interested, is that these two instances (Hexbear and Lemmygrad) are filled with what we call here nazbols, tankies, or even left-wing fascists.
"It came from the statement made in the thread that hexbear was 'aggressively pro-trans,' which seemed quite disgusting and fetishizing to me. This aligns with the rest of the authoritarian theme of the instance, you might say, having the perspective that one must make a superhuman effort to allow a minority to use a space."
This seems like an odd message considering that Lemmy, as software, is being praised here; and what is being criticized are instances wherein the admins enforce apologism for authoritarian regimes.
"Tankie" is a pejorative that basically looks like an exact replica of McCarthy's strawman of a Communist. The purpose of the term is to claim the accused that they genuinely hold those McCarthyian characteristics, regardless of reality. It shuts down conversation because it would be inconvenient to have those conversations, it's a thought-terminating cliché more than a real thing.
I'm curious where a lot of those folks come from/what their backgrounds are. I assume like 50% are Russian bots, but of those who are real people, how'd they end up where they are in life/holding those opinions? I have a hard time wrapping my head around it.
I was in middle school, just gaining political awareness at the time of the nato intervention in yugoslavia. I was in the US for that experience. The difference between what was said about the bombing campaign inside the US vs what I heard from my family outside made it clear to me that there's always two narratives at play. When 9/11 happened I was made extremely uncomfortable by the open jingoism, then with Iraq I was primed to distrust the WMD line. I got involved in anti-war protests, then I quickly became aware that democrats were not faithful opposition when it came to war. The Kerry campaign pitch was essentially just to run the war better than bush was. When I wrote my democratic senator/reps expressing opposition to the war I got boilerplate responses.
I pretty much only hung out with the punks and theater kids through high school because being opposed to the war would get most anyone else to respond with 'what are you a terrorist?' I was reading political theory at this point, but legitimately found it hard to engage with marx or lenin at the time because it was the end of history and all I could really see was that avenue being closed off entirely. I'd get lots of exposure to that sort of politics from listening to my grandfather rant though. While I wasn't really drawn to organizing at the time I was perfectly happy to go onto conservative forums and rile up/dunk on the fox news watchers.
What I did develop at a young age was a really critical eye for the media, it was jarring whenever I would travel to visit family, leaving America really felt like leaving a bubble. Not just leaving the rat race, but for example when not visiting touristy areas, if I was speaking in English I'd get people being like "oh you're American? why are so many people in prison there?". I still remember as a kid trying to wrap my head around just why so many people were in jail, the result was a deep disappointment in the US, and any politician upholding 'norms'.
At the same time as being totally disenchanted with the US I realized that I still needed to survive somehow, and living in the US gave me better options than anywhere else so I opted to stay. I knew I was trans at this point, not that I really had the words to properly describe the feeling, though I also felt that pretty much everyone I would interact with would be hostile to me if I expressed them, which made me avoid discussing it at all. I did know that I couldn't afford a prolonged encounter with the American medical system. I also hated the prospect of having to be the sickest patient in the mental ward just to be able to get medical support. I concluded that it just wasn't to be and instead I opted to repress and went to college. My degree selection based on a cold calculation of what degree that I could stand would make good money and graduated in time for '08 financial collapse. Putting off transition felt like a wise move as I then needed to move back in with my parents while looking for work.
I remember being actually hopeful that something might change after that and the occupy protests, only to be monumentally disappointed by Obama.
I was actually hopeful for Bernie too, it was nice to see what looked like the pendulum swinging left for a change. To then have whatever youthful energy there was so callously shut down to prop up the old guard democrat fossils really made it clear to me what side they were on. COVID also got me to to re-evaluate my life and political commitments. Organizing with my local anarchists was great for connecting with other trans people who were also COVID-concious, many of whom would probably also be considered tankies by lemmy users at this point. It also motivated me to read more theory, anarchist and marxist. Parenti was actually a great entrypoint for me on the marxist side, while Graeber was my original favorite on the anarchist side. I opted to start transitioning late in life when I finally had both financial independence and the social supports.
COVID also made it really clear to me that I couldn't count on the democrats being honest about something if they saw a political advantage in lying, that they would tolerate the final solution if it was on a long enough timescale. Gaza confirmed that realization. I could talk your ear off about that in greater detail, but this isn't the place for that.
I went on reddit for easy dopamine hits pretty much since the digg migration, but after october 7 I just kept getting banned repeatedly and that motivated me to finally move over to lemmy.ml and I've been here since.
I question the "Russian Bots" narrative pretty heavily, there's no evidence for that conspiracy theory nor would it make sense, Lemmy is too small to make an impact. Either way, I started reading Marxist theory a bit in college but more when I actually started working, and over the years I've read more theory and history.
I'm admittedly not well-versed in Marxism, beyond having the experience of, "Man, this shit looks good on paper!" But I would always take that a more communal-style communism route, so where I struggle is with the purported admiration of the Chinas and USSRs in the world. I suppose you might argue that my view is based on a misunderstanding, which I kind of get. But on a gut level, I have such a hostile feeling toward any authoritarian-style structure that my hang-up always comes back to that. Again, based on a very surface level understanding of what I presume to be a diverse group of views, which is probably part of the issue with simplifying it all.
I was born in '91 in a conservative family, and I grew up with the naive vision that international conflicts were a thing of the past and we could put politics aside and work on developing science and technology for the good of all humankind. Then, when I was 10 years old, I watched as every adult in the country lost their fucking minds over a couple buildings falling down. I watched our civil liberties get stripped away while we started stupid pointless wars that accomplished nothing and left far more people dead, with complete bipartisan support. In high school, I leaned Libertarian because Ron Paul was a thing and basically the only antiwar voice in politics, though I grew out of that once I no longer had teachers and parents bossing me around lol.
I had hope for Obama, though I was still young and not politically engaged. He was going to shut down Guantanamo and hold the Bush administration accountable for their blatant war crimes and disregard for both international law and the constitution - or so I hoped. But he didn't. He kept the illegal mass surveillance going and, contrary to his promise to protect whistleblowers, hunted Snowden to the ends of the earth for revealing the government's crimes.
As for my personal life at this time, I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I studied physics, thinking of it as a sort of "study of everything." But even that wasn't broad enough for me, I wanted to expand my cultural horizons as well, so I studied abroad in Japan for a year, which opened my mind to a more global perspective and reaffirmed my ideal of being a global citizen.
At this point, I was a liberal, skeptical of both parties, and politically disengaged. Watched The Daily Show and would probably fit in just fine with .world. But then 2016 happened.
I honestly didn't jump on the Bernie train at first, because I subscribed to the "conventional wisdom" of moving to the center to win over moderate republicans. As the republicans went more and more extreme, the democrats would achieve total political dominance as the "party of reason," Trump would lose in a landslide. Then he won. I was extremely furious and disappointed, I couldn't believe it! How could this happen?
In my personal life, I had entered the workforce. In spite of graduating with a B.S. in physics, my focus had been on studying things that were interesting to me, without regard to practical matters like my career. I'm probably somewhat autistic, I've always done very well on tests and grasped concepts quickly, but I got poor grades on account of neglecting homework. It wasn't until upper division physics classes that I found myself actually having to study. I was also privileged enough to not be concerned about practical matters growing up. After graduating, I've worked menial jobs, including warehouse work at Amazon, which gave me plenty of time to think. Since I started having a boss and a landlord, my politics improved. I also had a traumatic experience with my brother who came back from the Middle East, "self medicated" with meth, and almost became a mass shooter, but that's a story for another day.
In order to figure things out, I tried to find a place to debate politics online, and wound up in the cesspool of r/CapitalismVSocialism, which was created by An-Caps. Freshly radical, I was of course more attracted to libertarian socialism, rejecting authoritarianism, though the term "tankie" was not popularized at the time. I saw right-libertarians as the more "reasonable" people on the right, an idea which I eventually became disavowed of by actually talking to them. Eventually, I realized that their whole ideology is based on wordplay, and that they, along with the right in general, have absolutely nothing of value to offer whatsoever, and their nonsense simply dragged down the level of debate, preventing anything of actual substance from being discussed.
Leaving that behind, I looked for a left-wing space, and found many of them to be clownish. I was turned off of r/socialism from the "Catgirl fiasco," and I was too skeptical of the democrats to fit into purely liberal spaces - both of which lacked the bluntness and diversity of thought I was looking for. As a last resort, I checked r/ChapoTrapHouse, which I had heard all sorts of nasty rumors about - but instead, it was exactly what I was looking for: a non-sectarian leftist space that didn't have a stick up its ass and wasn't afraid to tell off both right-wingers and crybullies, which made it reviled because the crybullies would run off and whine and make up rumors (just like .worlders do).
During this time, I also did a good bit of reading. Progress and Poverty by Henry George helped me get a basic grasp of political economy, while All the Shah's Men by Stephen Kinzer taught me about Iran's historical attempts to reclaim their resources through a popular, liberal democratic movement, which was crushed by the CIA (similar stories can be found in many countries around the world).
When the subreddit was banned I migrated to Hexbear (yes, I'm from there). I was still very skeptical of states like China and the USSR, but my opinion of America had plummetted in 2016, and I saw them as acting as a counterbalance to US hegemony. I took a perspective of being system-agnostic, that non-aligned nations ought to have as much flexibility as possible in regards to their economic situation so that they can experiment and get it right, and then that system can spread out of that. When there's just a single hegemon, it can exert too much control, but in a multipolar world there are more options. I was reading Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti and watching his lectures, as well as some snippets of theory.
But probably the thing that really pushed me beyond that was Covid-19. In the US, they lied to us, telling us masks don't work, and then sent us all back to work with no protections. Up until that point, I at least had trust in US scientific institutions, but that lie completely broke my trust, and it really sank in as real that the government does not give a single shit about protecting the people, and that my interests are completely in conflict with those of the state. Meanwhile, China actually listened to the science, they never told people not to wear masks, they did lockdowns, I even saw in Vietnam where the government delivered groceries right to people's homes so they'd stay inside, while in the US everyone was scrambling over each other to buy toilet paper. I had to quit my job because the situation was so bad, I lived in the south and we had no protections at all.
And yet, as usual, nobody was held accountable for the failure, and the government's mistakes were swept under the rug while the media blamed China and spread rumors that it was some sort of bioweapon. Naturally, anti-Asian hate crimes skyrocketed because of that bullshit. You can actually see very clearly where most people were fairly ambivalent to China before 2019, and then there was a major shift, coinciding with a propaganda campaign. The goal, of course, is to sow fears of China in order to justify more funding to the military, and to distract from the government's own failures. It's no coincidence that China suddenly became a military threat the moment the war in Afghanistan started to wind down, always gotta have an enemy to justify why we're building bombs instead of healthcare. And if some random people get hate crimed, the government doesn't give a shit.
Ultimately, I'd love to return to my initial dream of setting aside politics and pursuing science to build a better world for all. But how can I do that when you have cases like Jane Y. Wu, a distinguished neuroscientist who committed suicide after the US government shut down her lab for the sin of being born Chinese? How can I pretend that I'm a global citizen when the government shuts down innocent intercultural programs like the Confucious Institutes? I never signed up for this shit. I'm in this for humanity, not the United States, and the United States government is making it increasingly clear that it's an enemy to the common cause of humanity.
So there's my life story. None of us are "Russian bots," we're mostly just downwardly-mobile disillusioned intellectuals.
Thanks, this was a great answer. I really enjoyed reading it. I was dead serious about wondering about how you all got to where you are. It wasn't just a glib statement. I'll look into those books, thanks.
Just reading and watching the situation unfold. Whereas I can’t understand why someone is ok with the US lifting a ban on arming Nazis, and somehow I’m the asshole for just being aware of that.
You also get called a tankie on here for just pointing out that most of the Tiananmen Square claims have been debunked. Somehow I’m also an asshole for knowing the western media outlets did not claim violence from the CCP at the time, but changed the story in coordination with US intelligence. How am I in any way in the wrong just for knowing about US intelligence changing the narrative, and not going along with it? I didn’t fabricate these fucking news archives. Take it up with the Washington Post.
All of the tankie accusations amount to ‘how dare you know about that?!!’ or ‘they’re the good kind of Nazis!’
Extremism, whatever route it takes, is a byproduct of social isolation. And extremist groups, whether they are nazis, religious fundamentalists, incels, etc., feed upon the people who are marginalized by a conformist society giving them a fictional explanation on "why society hates them": the white genocide, infedels, women are like animals.
I don't think that "tankies" are as extreme as the other I mentioned but I believe the base mechanism is the same.
I think it's either trolls or people who have realised how capitalism exploits them, but instead of becoming actual leftists, they just jumped to worshipping another oppressive system instead. Lemmy seems to be very US-centric, so I think the thought process for some has been:
America bad
America says [insert communist or 'communist' country here] bad
Therefore [insert communist or 'communist' country here] good
So basically, not being able to understand nuance.
After numerous temporary bans, I am the recipient of a permanent ban from Reddit. In a reply, I stated "Don't ask, don't tell, don't say tranny." From that Reddit determined I am a hateful individual. As their conclusion defined them as dysfunctional and extremely judgmental, their offer to file an appeal prompted me to author "Don't ask, don't tell, don't say Reddit."
I know it isn't powerful and offensive, but since they are offended by a belch, fart, eye-twitch or hiccup, I am sure it will do to make my point.
So far, it's quite refreshing. However I miss some of the smaller niche hobby subreddits, as fediverse hasn't gained enough momentum yet. There are "channels" (?) that have like 300 people, and a post every other month, which is too small right now.
It's a bit like OSRS for reddit - an attempt to revive the reddit we all have very rose-tinted memories of. Unfortunately we seem to have forgotten about the the rampant casual misogyny, tribalism, moderator political infighting, that the 2007 XP rates were actually abysmally implemented and desperately needed retooling (and that deeply awkward "ron paul" phase reddit went through...)
I've been called a tankie in the same posts where I criticize the USSR and Russia, or when I say China isn't inherently good or evil.
Tankies are to liberals what woke is to Republicans. Taking a term invented by a community, reclaiming it, giving it a new definition only used by them.
Yeah I'm a bit lost on why someone's instance automatically = their entire identity. Wouldn't that means 1) technically we are all tankies on a tankie platform and 2) I need to start learning Finnish?
Yeah I randomly picked an instance when I created this account around a year ago, and these days I see people comment things like “lol of course you’re from .ml”.
I don’t even know what’s the difference between instances. And it’s not like we were given a whole lot of explanation when picking one.
Anyone who disagrees with their narratives is banned in hexbear. Ml was the default for a while so loads of people on there who have no idea what a tankie even is.
Yeah, hexbear and .grad seem to be mostly tankie users, but it seems much more split on .ml. The admins are questionable, and I've seen tankies there disproportionally, but since it was the default instance for a long time, there are also a bunch of non-tankie users. I think lumping .ml in with hexbear and .grad really downplays just how bad those two are.
No mention of dbzer0. com anywhere in the meme or text? To any newcomers, if you wouldn't download a car then you don't need to know about that instance.
Lol I made the original meme and text, I kinda just brain dumped the instances from the top of my head, the hope was others would chime in with their fav instances/comms and add to the list
If you want nothing farther left than drumpf memes, and also like being a little bit bigoted towards Muslims, then Lemmy.world is gonna be a nice cozy home for you.
No, we're still federated with them. I'm not sure which comments you can't see. I've personally blocked a few of the most insufferable users for my blood pressures sake. You will see weekly (or more frequent) posts like this on .world where they complain about leftist instances and the comments are full of exhortations to block or defederate from lemmygrad, .ml and hexbear.
Lemmy.ml is the original instance and the dev instance. I joined it because there was literally no alternative at the time. It's pretty annoying being called a tankie left and right because of this
Yeah, that's pretty unfair. You shouldn't have to put up with this; and it definitely is not your fault, or the fault of the instance. This "tankie instance" thing is bullshit.
I think there's an instance on .ml that has everyone in a tizzy. I myself haven't had any issue with .ml specifically. Lot of 'mens rights' bigots from .ee though, not sure why that is.
First time reading the original statement, and this actually makes me less concerned. It isn't secret knowledge that the capital has worked hard to reframe being left from wanting anti capitalist economic policies to mostly social issues without consequence such as inclusive language and skin color quotas. None of that addresses the real problem that is the capitalist system driving us all into servitude and the planet towards collapse.
This is also why the left is generally not considered attractive to the average voter. They don't care about any of that social crap, they care about their own situation and how to improve that. And while inclusivity is important and a just cause it is entirely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and not a valid agenda to run a political movement on.
The lives of every marginalized group of people will improve a hundred times more by toppling the system that keeps us all oppressed and unhappy, than by having the government use their preferred pronouns when letting them know they have to make do with less, again.
Notice Beehaw’s not on the “good” list anymore? Wonder why they’re not on there…
As far as I understood at the time, Beehaw cut themselves off from just about everyone else in the fediverse. If they want to make that choice I respect their position but its sending the message they're not interested in interacting with most others. If someone tells you to go away and they don't want to talk to you, I'm not going to chase them and try and change their mind. I'm going to let them go do whatever they want to do and I'll do my own thing with most everyone else.
Tankies say that shit but they don't mean it. They could easily support and promote socialism in Western Nations but they don't, instead the promote people like Donald Trump and try to convince people to resort to violence to tear it all down.
To them, real socialism is the enemy. "Communism" just means Eastern Power and "Capitalism" just means Western Power, it's political tribalism at its core.
Their calls of unity and accusations of division are false, they're Authoritarian "leftists" who deny anything bad of the CCP, Russia and NK from human rights violations to genocides and any evidence of said acts is nothing but "CIA/Western propaganda"
Tankies are not socialists, they're not communists, they're authoritarians, full stop.
Denying propaganda the CIA is selling you about China is not the same thing as denying everything the CCP has ever done wrong. Especially when even the CIA has backtracked their claims, and you religiously stick to it.
Nah, that stuff is the Dictatorship Of The Proletariat, which is a supposed way to Communism, rather than Communism itself, and as the "dictatorship" in the name indicates, it's an authoritarian regime.
The valid criticism of Communism is not that it's authoritarian is that in over a century all countries who tried to get there took the authoritarian path and not a single one ever left that stage and reached Communism - in other words, Communism seems to be a unachieveable ideal.
It defaults to “Active” view, which is the least updated. You can set your posts to “Hot” and then switch between “Top 6 Hours," "New" and “Top 12 Hours” to get the most of your experience here. It will seem dead with the default.
Great meme, and not a bad recommendation, but I find personal blocks to be a great tool myself. After spending a month blocking the most extreme people over there as they popped up in my feed, the remaining memes and commenters are quite nice.
That's what I love about lemmy. A little curating of your feed and dropping the occasional abhorrent 'human' into the blocklist makes this a pretty nice place.