Evidently, this is a divisive and emotional topic. Still, we’re happy that we are talking about it because it’s certainly important to us in the community. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be so heated about it. At the same time, we’d like to keep the discussion respectful. It’s completely fine to express your opinions as long as they aren’t explicitly violating any of the rules, especially promoting hate. It’s respectful and effective to disagree with someone over a passionate topic without calling them offensive names. There is no need to personally attack anyone or a group, and we do not want to maintain a space that is used for creating hateful division.
Remember, we’re here to discuss all matters related to autism, have a place where we can freely be autistic without having to mask, and ultimately create a community. It’s understandable to get heated over topics, but try to remember that you’re responding to another person that may feel emotional about the matter as well.
I don't know about all autistic people, but over 75% of the people I've had a considerable relationship with have called me too sensitive at some point. It's one of the hallmarks of being me: waiting for the moment someone calls me too sensitive. The other is being called an asshole because I apparently made some implication I was completely unaware of.
you're entirely right. allistic is silly. i think it's slightly worse than silly though. i have two takes on this.
my first take is that you shouldn't slur people.
my second is that if you're gonna slur someone anyway, don't be a chicken; just slur them. hiding behind "allistic" is a little bit like hiding behind "youths", or "fruity", or "welfare scroungers", or "special", or when people do that thing where they go "...she... oh sorry i mean he" (and vice-versa). it's either a dogwhistle, or dogwhislte-adjacent. we all know what the speaker is implying when they uses these terms. you're just slurring someone without the confidence necessary to do so.
this is why i unironically use normie (on the internet). sometimes i want to be rude about it, y'know? am in the wrong to slur like this? yes, absolutely. whilst i might use normie in the context of venting, it still doesn't make it right. but at least i'm not being a coward about my position by hiding behind "allistic"
sometimes, especially when i'm chatting amongst autistics, it's easier to casually write "when normies do x it upsets me, how about you?" instead of writing formal prose like "Oh I must say! These dastardly Neurotypicals have a particular behaviour pattern that troubles my mind... Do tell me how you bear the burden of such travesties.".
doing the formal thing is tiring, and sometimes i don't want to be the better person. 😎👍
Also how are any of these things autistic traits? I'm sitting here chewing my tongue raw for the last 5 years and haven't gone outside since, have no interest in socialization and have misphonia yet watch asmr. I'm not autistic.
Well. This post has been eye opening and maybe a little disturbing.
Anyway I work in sales and eye contact is a must. I find it really hard to pay any attention to what people are saying when I'm looking at them but I've practiced enough that there's, like, a subroutine in my brain that that picks out the relevant information in a conversation while I consciously am not really engaged in a meaningful way. I'll ask the right questions and it seems like I'm paying attention but I'm really just running on auto pilot.
I'll finish a video conference or in person meeting thanking God for transcription software because I can't recall a fucking thing they talked about.
I've realized in life that nobody cares about what's actuallly happening. They are about what looks like it's happening. I don't understand it and I never will but everyone wants you to lie to them, constantly. So just give the people what they need.
Mind you, I hate talking to lawyers, consultants and salespeople who do that (and they're plenty) and I'm developing aversion to meeting new ones because of it. If you ever suspect your client is autistic, consider the possibility of not actually caring about eye contact, because they'll probably prefer that.
Oh I've practiced so much, I can focus now. I have to meet a lot of "strangers" every day for my job.
Also, I got a book called "how to win friends and influence people". I've been practicing all the techniques the book teaches on people and it absolutely works. I haven't read a book since high school. It's very well written!
Edit: the book specifically talks about sales a lot. That book is especially useful for sales.
Humans are social creatures. There has almost always been some sort of social norm across all of history. Likewise, there has almost been judgement of people who break social norms.
People with Autism have, among other things, trouble following those social norms. Ultimately a lot of the things we do could be considered offensive. The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for tolerance.
Meanwhile a lot of ways that autistic people are sensitive in are pretty alien and jarring. There's a lack of emotional regulation that often leads to disproportionate outbursts. There are sensory issues that can lead to relatively benign things causing said outbursts. There are a ton of things that are simply more disruptive than a neurotypical person getting miffed that someone doesn't make eye contact.
It seemed like that commenter was saying "ask for tolerance for disproportionate outbursts." It seems like you're saying others accommodating your meltdowns is a human right. Is that what you're saying?
The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for toleranceunderstanding and accommodation.
I try to help.
If we're using the language of disability, 'understanding and accommodation' seems to afford its subjects a degree of dignity. We tend not to ask for 'tolerance' on behalf of the disabled, after all.
Considering a shit ton of people took the pandemic as an excuse to avoid people including me is not actually that unusual. We only socialize for survival.
Meh, we have the dance club crowd and the sports fan crowd. I'm part of neither (and sports fans share too many similarities to fanatic religious militants for my tastes) but I understand them.
Introverts are underrepresented in society, but I think this is due to extroverts dominating politics and industrial upper management so polities tend to favor extroverted behaviors.
Also while extroverts enjoy social behavior, they do not enjoy toxic social interaction, as is typical in the workplace. No one wants to be micromanaged and bullied and humiliated by their bosses. I think this figures largely in the telecommuting conflict going on right now.
Well put. Ultimately this debate comes down to a desire to cover the world in leather rather then wear shoes.
Increased acceptance of autistic people almost universally a good thing (with very specific and few exceptions). The trouble is that the entire rest of the world can't be psychologists who happen to be experts in understanding every condition.
I agree that people should educate themselves where possible. As much right as autistic adults have to be themselves, other people have the right to form opinions with regard to adherence to social norms.
I think it's fine to acknowledge the unfortunate truth that autistic people have to live in a society designed around the needs of people who are unlike them in important ways. Saying so shouldn't diminish their responsibility to try to function in society as best they can despite this challenge.
To an extent, it's a matter of perspective. We can easily conceive of a society where the things that "normal" people do are considered alien and jarring. If they had to constantly suppress their fundamental nature the way autistic people do, they might not seem so natural and healthy.
Personally I find this form of thinking far more dangerous: I come from a country in which being "mentally disabled" would literally mean me being unable to function in polite society, and being a "retard" is something pretty common, even with adults. The fact I was undiagnosed autistic until I left saved me. Sure you don't function like everyone else, and yeah, it's hard - trust me -, but to say you're broken is basically undermining everyone else that has the same condition as you.
I can see how that can be true in your circumstances. But, in a society where resources are available to you, the social model often leads people to turn down medications and accommodations, because the need and use of them seems unfair. (General “you” use ahead) And that only makes your life worse, given that you don’t live in that ideal society you built in your head.
Neurodivergent is a middle ground. Our wiring is abnormal in some (or many) ways.
We are broken in the same way a tank is a really shitty car. If all you do is drive the roads, it will seem that way. However, it can go places that a car simply can't. Critically, this doesn't make it any less shitty on the roads. Nore let you suddenly become a car. You're a tank, and stuck as one.
This is different to being broken however. We are forced to adapt to our unusual brain wiring. Some people unfortunately can't. Others can mask, but find it exhausting.
I'm personally reasonably lucky. I have ADHD and autism. My life was pretty shitty till I learnt not to follow the expectations of others. I now have a family, an interesting job, and hobbies I enjoy. My life is still far from perfect, but it's not broken, it just felt that way.
Hey. Pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADHD (literally sitting in waiting room to talk to a therapist as I write this), and I feel like there's a bit more than just being broken. We're only "broken" because we don't conform to the currently agreed upon norms. The world isn't designed for us. And the quicker we can realize that and make personal and societal adaptations to make these "breaks" more standard, well, we'll all be better off.
My issue is how some people put so much emphasis on societal changes and ideas like “I’m not broken, society is”. Then they just live without any personal adaptations (medications, coping mechanisms, etc) bc “I’m not broken”. Worse, some look down at those who do take medications and try to adapt to the realities of our current society.
Hello, random Lemmitor! Have you downvoted the comment from Ookami38 because you feel it isn't true? You know nothing about the life experience of the user who wrote it, so you're using your limited, finite knowledge to invalidate someone else's perspective. Before you jump into concluding that people who use the term neurodivergency to refer to themselves to cope, have you stopped to consider if your irrational rejection of the possibility that a neurodivergent person feeling fine about their condition or who they are is not your own mechanism to cope?
I really relate to your comment, and one of the most rage inducing experiences I've ever had was someone lecturing me on how I shouldn't call myself disabled, and then they badly explained the social model of disability to me.
However, I also find neurodivergent a useful term because I think that what we understand as disability is limited by our current world view. An example that feels analogous to me is how colonialist empires dismissed the art, culture and knowledge of indigenous peoples because they projected their preconceived values onto them.
I think that there's a lot we don't understand about autism, and how heavily normative society is holds us back. There are things that I am great at that feel inextricably linked to my autism. That doesn't negate all the difficulties I also experience, but the word "neurodivergent" and the conversations that have developed around it feel it carves out space where I can lean into my autistic traits in situations where they're strengths without having to be "super-autistic"; but also I can struggle in ways that neurotypical people can't fathom, and it isn't viewed as "negating" my strengths.
A large part of this is because the first chunk of my adult life, I broke myself by trying to act overly neurotypical, and like many autistics, I found that masking to this degree was unsustainable. Now, I'm much closer to a balance where I can pick my battles and not force myself to be something I'm not - like having tinted glasses for the office instead of expecting myself to somehow cope with my light hypersensitivity. In many ways, it feels like a different mode of being altogether - "wellness" for me looks different to "wellness" to a neurotypical, and I'd wager that "wellness" for you and other people in this thread would look closer to my version than the neurotypical version.
That being said, I agree that the way that people talk about stuff like ADHD and autism feels icky as hell. Personally, I find it more depressing to pretend that I'm not disabled, because actually, ignorance isn't bliss when I can't run from my reality. Sometimes things just suck, and they're hard, and pretending otherwise makes it harder to cope with because it's implicitly saying "I'm lying to myself because the truth is untenable".
Same with me, but I don't have ADHD but depression. I know I'm not normal and it's not okay to be like me, guess what, telling me that in fact is ok to be a mental fucking mess doesn't make it better.
that is literally every human on this planet. just because someone doesn't have a mental divergence from perceived norm doesn't mean they aren't broken.
I disagree, we’re all different, but “disorder starts at impairment” and impairments come in various degrees.
To think of it this way, seems to say that “we all struggle” and the very next thought for many would be “why do you need and get medication/accommodation?” Or maybe the inverse “why don’t I get…?”
I guess there’s an argument to be had there, especially with the second form of the question.
A bit of an asshole, medication
Bit boring, medication
Don’t run fast, prosthetic
Kinda ugly, surgery
Short, surgery
I take the reason you say this is cause your not on the spectrum?
Most things neurodivergent are actually stuff thats normal and common. Like needing some alone time, but its the degree of intensity, persevering need for those things that make it fit outside the norm.
A fun fact, we have a lot of ties to the roots of the lgbt community. Something about not letting norms and tradition decide how you should think and act. To be different often isn’t a choice and the right for us to exist differently is a matter of survival.
Why can't we just be ourselves, without NTs imposing judgement on us? Sometimes I feel like I'm expected to act NT, when I feel like it shouldn't be a big deal. It's very frustrating for me. So what if I don't know how to add to a conversation, or if I avoid eye contact, or if I don't like people trying to make eye contact with me for too long? Can't I just share that I'm autistic, and be given my own autonomy? I really don't like when NT standards are imposed on me. It makes me angry.
You've probably heard this already but, in case you haven't, try watching their eyebrows or right above them instead. It's a lot less awkward for some people for reasons I don't completely understand.
Remember to look away for a moment every ten seconds or so unless you're trying to seduce or intimidate them! It becomes a routine after awhile. Also, humans are really weird.
I do 5 on, 2 off for eye contact timing. It seems to work pretty well in terms of passing as nt and focusing on the task of timing it reduces the discomfort of eye contact in the first place for me
As an allistic person, I don't get any screams in my head when I make eye contact and may not understand what you're referring to. Intense awkwardness?
Prolomged eye contacts may make some allistic people feel awkward, but generally it's a positive experience of nonverbal communication.
not everyone is offended by these behaviors. what's more insulting is lumping all autistic people together, and lumping all non-autistic people together assuming that they all feel the same way. it's THAT sort of behavior that makes people turn on the other.
Yeah well when "respect" means "micro managing myself to glorify someone else because they demand it", then yeah. I'm disrespectful as fuck. Anyone who demands I show my belly so they can feel like they're in charge can kindly go fuck themselves. They're not in charge. Nobody gets that special pampering from me.
That was a big one that contributed to my divorce. Even after decades and with the person who was supposed to be my closest relationship, and even after explaining a million times that the worse my autoimmune illness got, the less I wanted to be touched, it was a massive problem.
I still don’t get it, because I’ve never once thought someone else not wanting me to touch them impacted me in any way. I also never feel the need to touch other people. I guess that’s weird.
Touch is a form of intimacy, one your partner has been severely deprived of. As a heavily tactile person, partner that doesn't want to be touched would be a massive showstopper for me.
Sad it turned out this way, but great if you'll find a partner that respects this boundaries more, or, better yet, doesn't want to touch you either.
Most of the things in the list above are just circumstances where misunderstandings arise and it's not uncommon for autistic self-care (like withdrawing, not paying attention, etc) to be mistaken for disrespect.
When I was a kid, these misunderstandings sometimes led to me getting beat up.
Now that I'm a larger-than-average adult man, the bullying and schoolyard nonsense doesn't happen but the misunderstandings and ensuing anger can take the form of grievances that have a way of turning into career-limiting drama. It' still bullying, it's just done the way adults bully.
These are all deeply frustrating, circumstantially stupid, and they all arise from an ignorant mistake in which me being inattentive or low on social energy or just having a hard time turns into them 'feeling disrespected'.
It can be exhausting when people take offense when none was honestly on offer- and the resulting dominance nonsense that sometimes ensues when they're petty about it has me a little convinced that too many adult people out there really don't distinguish between respect and submission to their weird dominance games
If the term "allistic" offends you: grow up, it's a new word. Is learning a new word scary? Cis isn't offensive. Allistic isn't offensive. If you become insecure because a previously unnamed characteristic or condition or yours suddenly receives a name that doesn't have implicit negative connotations, you should go work on whatever problem you have.
If the term "allistic" offends you: grow up, it's a new word. Is learning a new word scary?
I have no particular opinion on the term "allistic," but what happened to the maxime that each group should get the final say on the terminology applied to that specific group?
Now we're saying to a specific group "hey, from now on we'll call you all this new term and you all can just shut up and deal with it, because you don't get a say?"
Allistics wouldn't have come up with a term to categorize themselves, because they already see themselves as "the normal" that doesn't need to be categorized. Save that, I'm not against them choosing a different word - but it would still be chosen by one or a few of them for an unchoosing vast majority.
Holy shit this thread is cruel. I scrolled for way too long and started thinking I was pages deep into some general-interest place on Reddit. Nope, it's c/Autism. Kinda the last place I'd expect to be okay with piles of hateful NTs coming in to point and laugh and talk trash at us.
Also, very agree regarding the terminology-whining. Kinda hard to believe every term non-minority sorts find out about gets screamed about, claiming it's a slur. Equality feeling like oppression, I guess. Only "those people" get words; everyone else is just "normal." Grr.
Well, between two sides picking different ways to do eye contact and tone to use there's no reason to call one way and one tone wrong and another correct. Same about wanting or not wanting to do anything. So the author of that list, if sincere, is not "allistic", just assholeistic.
Also - I personally question someone's authority only when it's correct in the ongoing argument.
However, I usually ignore any authority I consider invalid. That's not the same as "questioning", as I'm not doing that demonstrably, that is, socially, just don't let it in onto my personal territory, speaking figuratively. And thus is not someone else's concern.
In my experience, labeling a divergence is used medically to help deduce the type and amount of treatment (and how much money you can get for it) , and socially to just have a catch-all, casual way to tell peers about your divergence easy in within a minute instead of a whole convo about it. Folk without any divergence don't need a label for those reasons, so it feels weird to me make one up that further specifies how 'normal' or 'without diagnoses' someone is. Most folk with a neuro-divergent diagnosis also don't list all the diagnoses they don't have, not because they like to be disrespectful but because thats how you use words in a conversation, you try and be a bit concise and efficient while getting your message across. Considering that, it feels pointless to use a word like allistic, pretty much like using the word neuro-typical conditioning, what does that even mean? living life among undiagnosed functional peers? sheesh, how do you tell everyone you're uncomfortable with your diagnosis without telling you're uncomfortable with your diagnosis...
I understand what you are saying, but the entire point is underscoring the fact that we may be different but we’re not abnormal. Therefore I don’t call NTs “normal”.
It may seem like a minor thing to get hung up on, but it’s the essence of disability advocacy. We are normal. We are part of society. We deserve to be included.
I just think that that difference is only really relevant (normal/abnormal differenent/not different) when you are not comfortable with the label, or have extra feelings that somehow everyone that uses this label (autism), that is taken 1:1 from the medical world, uses it with some extra derogatory meaning. Seems more like a low self-esteem issue than a non-inclusive issue. Im happy you tried to engage, I think I understand your point and understand that we are in disagreement.
It's more that they expect their social needs to be recognzed and acknowledged without cues. We see it most among elites and positions of authority, such as US Senators and Representatives behaving like immature children, in contrast to conduct suitable for their office.
When MTG tweets racist dog whistles for likes, or Lindey Graham has a meltdown with a hot camera, it shows us they take their positions for granted. It shows they expect to be handled and accommodated and they don't take their offices seriously.
Whereas we neurodivergents develop personal symptom management techniques (like stimming) in order to function and be of service to the community around us. This is how we cope so that we can do things and not freak others out.