Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia
Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia
Australia on Thursday passed anti-hate crime laws under which a Nazi salute in public, among other similar offences, will be punishable by a mandatory jail sentence.
Summary
Australia has enacted strict anti-hate crime laws, mandating jail sentences for public Nazi salutes and other hate-related offenses.
Punishments range from 12 months for lesser crimes to six years for terrorism-related hate offenses.
The legislation follows a rise in antisemitic attacks, including synagogue vandalism and a foiled bombing plot targeting Jewish Australians.
The law builds on state-level bans, with prior convictions for individuals performing Nazi salutes in public spaces, including at sporting events and courthouses.
Fucking finally. Good shit Australia. Doing better than most. Watch Elmo throw a hissie fit. Pathetic
I hope he tests the waters there and Australia follows through.
Don't kid yourself. Australia is also an oligarchy where corporations get most of what they want passed within days/weeks, with little to no debate, while popular or inconsequential policies are given months or years of debate (so the murdoch/oligarch propaganda machine can distract the public and tell them how to think).
There is no chance in hell either major party would imprison an American dictators right hand man. They're both corporate whores at heart, with little/no virtue.
Agreed.
I'm so sick of this absolutist free speech bullshit that wants to make room for terrorist ideologies to hide.
Sending people to jail is a great way to make sure they don't spend time embroiled in Nazi ideology on every level. Probably the best way to make sure someone never comes in contact with a single particle of Nazism, is to send them to prison.
(Can you tell I'm american?)
Yeah, but most of the people I imagine pulling a Nazi salute "as a joke like Elon (were so hilarious haha look at those [insertracialslur])" might be deterred from pulling their shitty "joke" if it actually means prison time automatically. It doesn't matter if it's just like a week. Try explaining to an employer why you didn't attend the important meeting you had because you sat in jail for a week for a fascist "joke".
I mean free speech is a deeply contradictory concept, which i largely support, however, people having the "right" to harm others as fascists mean to do is not a human right but a right of domination, which I am actively and deeply set against. And prison justice is just a "right" to harm others, only one that we are conditioned to live with.
It does create an opportunity for a little irony, which I can't pass up.
But part of my criticism is not just "Nazis exist in prison" but "carcerial justice is just as fascistic as anything we associate with fascism" which never gets even thought about let alone discussed anywhere but the fringes of the prison abolition movement.
And things like prisons and police, the existence of many kinds of crime, particularly property crimes, need to be considered historically contingent, so that no matter how much we want to just delete all prisons they do serve as a solution to contradictions that arise within our society. So that the struggle to abolish carcerial punishment has to be simultaneously replaced with something better. Which is just and worth fighting for.
Getting rid of heil Hitler hand gestures in public might prevent the public proliferation of "signs" of fascism, the actual causes of it are institutional and function in cooperation with systems of institutional racism, Etc., and until those tendencies are abolished, and that is the worst expressions of class domination within capitalism, fascism will always be a problem to contend with.
In other words, we have fascism because we have prisons. Or rather, the underlying logic of fascism is just the underlying logic that justifies carcerial justice, taken to its natural conclusions.
So its not just irony, its like a double irony
I sat on a jury recently and a large part of the case had to do with prison culture. It's so incredibly sad how accurate this is.
My dad was a prison guard, I've thought about some of these dynamics a lot over the years.
Honestly what else is there to do? These people aren’t exactly going to change their minds, and letting them display hate in the name of free speech is only going to help them mobilize and elect more trumps in the world.
Well I say it elsewhere, but we need to really start to rethink carcerial justice as a solution to social problems. It doesn't help, it just compounds the contradictions that lead to problems like crime, fascism in the first place.
I understand we can't just snap our fingers to make it go away. But The first step is discussion.
I'mIn American prisons are white, black, Latin superiority gangs.
Someone performing a Nazi salute is already a Nazi.
Making the gesture illegal is a clear communication to all Australians that we will not tolerate this ideology.
I feel like this copypasta is mandatory here:
(transcribed from a series of tweets) - @iamragesparkle
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, "no. get out."
And the dude next to me says, "hey i'm not doing anything, i'm a paying customer." and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, "out. now." and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, "you didn't see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them."
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it's always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don't want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it's too late because they're entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, 'oh damn.' and he said "yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people."
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven't forgotten that at all.
I first saw this on reddit
Also this idiot performing a nazi salute outside court after just being sentenced, got busted. What a nimrod.
“No charges to be laid over alleged Nazi salute made by officer at Victoria Police academy”
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/104796744
Cops get to be a little Nazi as a treat.
Yeah. There's not a lot of information there though. Who really knows what happened.
Maybe the police covered it up. Maybe it wasn't a Nazi salute.
This guy was pretty emphatic. I mean there was nothing about how she's a good officer or maybe a misunderstanding or whatever. That was a sincere and direct statement of position and intent to prosecute any offenders.
I think a distinction can be drawn between this and what Australia is reported to have done. Imo, this is an example of social intolerance, and I'd argue that there is a sharp distinction between that and policing behavior through the use of governmental force. So, I don't see this excerpt as being a supportive argument for Australia's new law; I see it as being an example of how the issue can be handled socially.
That's a fair point. I didn't really post it thinking "this anecdote supports this law". I just think it's worth remembering the insidious manner in which these organisations encroach on society.
Obviously laws are intended to be policed through governmental force, but they're also a communication regarding what a society considers acceptable.
For example, if a society legislates that the age of consent is 16, then people being charged with statutory rape is only a small part of the impact of that law. In Australia we literally have police giving presentations in schools to ensure that teenagers are aware of the laws that exist to protect them, and how something that might seem innocent to a 15 year old (like sending your crush a photo of your boobs or something), can have dire consequences. In summary, the existence of the law is society standing together and sending a very clear message that some behaviors are unacceptable, a formalisation of social intolerance if you will.
Fascist organisations have been successfully recruiting, and it seems like they're gaining momentum. Sure some bar might be able to keep skin heads out, but "soft" social intolerance very obviously is inadequate.
The thing is, these groups don't start with hatred right off the bat. A normal kid might see a fascist organisation as some kind of boys club. Cool iconography, loyalty, camaraderie, whats not to like? The existence of this law will ensure that people are aware of the depravity of this ideology and reduce their ability to seduce recruits by deception.
See, I am overall against any and all limits of free speech but...
Yeah. Context matters. And in current world context, good job Australia, hope outher countries take notes.
but…
That's where you lost me.
Knowing my luck, I'd get 12 months for having my arm at an unfavourable angle while giving directions.
I don’t really understand this whole “free speech” thing. If it were ww2 would you be worried about nazis having free speech or would you do what needed to be done?
This isn't WWII, we aren't in war. By letting go of free speech you are letting goverment tell you what is ok to talk about, and by doing that you allow them to expand taboo. In times of need like today, that is necessary evil, however normally that is something out of horror.
For example, whether you agree or not, at the end of WW II communism was seen as almost as bad as nazizm, and in USA I think, may be wrong, that it was seen as worse. What's bad is that every social policy is coupled with it mentally. If free speech wasn't a thing, USA could tell it's citizens that talking about nazizm, communism, social policies or unions is strictly forbidden under threat of, at least, financial fine.
Literal hate crimes, I'm all for. A gesture with your arm gets you 12 months? That's too much, regardless of its origin or meaning.
I'll say, likely wasting my digital breath, I do not support any sort of Nazi bullshit or affiliates. But truly, outlawing gestures is a next level, knee jerk reaction to a problem they don't know what else to do to solve.
While without context I'd agree that banning a gesture is a bit much, especially with such steep measures, I think that in a world when one of the de facto co-leaders of major if not the main world superpowers openly does nazi salute twice, we need to up the guard and cut this shit in the bud.
And as you said - we don't know how to solve USA becoming a nazi state rapidly. Nobody does. And third reich ain't gonna hold a candle to USA if they decide it's time for blitzkrieg. So doingall we can to damage and reduce nazizm where we still can is admirable.
I generally don't do "slippery slope" arguments, and I also dislike invoking the "paradox of tolerance", but I will say that I think the messaging here is important.
To me, it's not "just a gesture". It's a very clear and intentional demonstration of ideological alignment, and it's an ideology of hate and intolerance.
I'm absolutely ok with expressing, as a society, that we will not accept this ideology amongst us. If they want to scuttle around through the cracks like cockroaches then so be it.
Good. This needs to be worldwide. They need to reeducate the people as to
A: Why the Nazis were bad beyond 'they wanna kill people!' Their utter disgust of science and technology, and how their social policies were actively fucking over their own people in addition to others. B: Just how incompetent the Nazis were, and were far from a hyperefficient machine. C: Just how bad they were at science and despite their demonization, West Germany was never fully denazified and how many former Nazi officers returned to work as politicians and military officers.
There is a plethora of books written before and during WW2 that showcased just how evil the Nazis were and how fucked their society was. They also need a review of Mein Kampf and how Hitler dictated it. Exactly like how Trump dictated the Art of the Deal to a writer and did not write it himself.
My suggestion of one book written during the Nazi Era is Education for Death by Gregor Ziemer. The society it showed was really, REALLY fucked. How anyone could think this was a paradise is beyond me. Most modern fascists, with their donut bodies and chinless faces would be the types considered feeble and probably sterilized as a 'charity'.
I don't see how mandatory jail time helps with "They need to reeducate the people"
People tend to get further radicalized in prison, not less.
If you want to Re-educate people you need to invest in education in the first place.
Some people need to be separated. This isn't about censorship, it's about group dynamics.
Let's take it from both angles - just to avoid politics. A disruptive kid in a classroom affects every other kid. Get rid of that kid, and suddenly the whole classroom improves. Everyone can agree to that.
The other side - a company has a pro-union worker. Shitty company doesn't like not controlling their workers, so they find a way to fire them.
Back to the Nazi, separate them from the rest of society. We don't need them.
It depends upon whether Australian prisons are focused on rehabilitation or punishment.
I don’t see how mandatory jail time helps with “They need to reeducate the people”
Jail doesn't work for Nazis. The world learned only one things solves the "fascism problem".
facists are deadend for humanity
I used to be a person that believed very strongly in freedom of speech and that anything which was categorized as a philosophy or belief shouldn't be censored.
However, after seeing how hard fascism has taken hold in America, I'm beginning to change my mind.
Freedom of speech was created so citizens could feel safe criticising the government, not so they could spout hatred about people who were different to them. You can say whatever the fuck you want, up until it makes others unsafe, that doesn't mean oh they say bad words and im offended, or i don't like them promoting that candidate over the one i like that has christian* values. No, that means you words and actions intentionally incite hatred and violence.
All this hiding behind free speech shite thats been happening for a very long time has just given the shit cunts the courage to be shit cunts. And now because the US shat the bed and its been spreading the world, the rest of the world needs to sanitise.
time has just given the shit cunts the courage to be shit cunts
There's something to be said for that, knowing they are shit cunts.
It's crazy watching the left throw freedom of speech under the bus as soon as people start saying things they don't like.
Really makes me proud not to consider myself a liberal at this point. Ya'll are nuts.
American fascism is unique because it solely exists to distract the working class from their exploitation by the ruling class.
In other words, it's cool to be a useful idiot because that's what makes rich people richer the fastest.
Send nazi pig Elon there on a one way flight.
Hey now! Australia is probably sick of everyone just sending criminals there!
targeting Jewish Australians.
There it is. I'll bet criticizing Isreal is considered anti-semetic too. Meanwhile Aboriginals still don't have rights.
You may want to quote some more of that bit, bud. It was a FOILED BOMBING PLOT targeting Jewish Australians.
How is Israel relevant?
But yes, native people always seem to get the shaft, no matter where you are. Again though, not relevant in this thread surely.
Good. I'm glad Australia drew a hard line.
A hard line angled up at about 45 degrees.
Kudos to Australia. Leon Hitler should travel there, have his arrested and deposited in the middle of the Great Australian Desert.
I think it should be legal to do exactly one free punch on anyone who does a nazi salute.
I say two
Can Canada do this too?
I don't think this behavior should be socially tolerated; however, I don't think it's a good idea to police it through the use of governmental force.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to police it through the use of governmental force.
Oh it absolutely is.
If you don't think it should be socially tolerated, then great, regulations are how we enforce social tolerance in a manner that isn't just "I don't like you, please stop, but also I won't do anything to you if you keep doing it."
Furthermore, and this is something you'll probably see brought up a lot when using that talking point, there is a paradox of tolerance that cannot be avoided when it comes to issues like Nazism. Nazi rhetoric is inherently discriminatory and intolerant. If you allow it to flourish, it kills off all other forms of tolerance until only itself is left. If you don't tolerate Nazi rhetoric, it doesn't come to fruition and destroy other forms of tolerance.
Any ideology that actively preaches intolerance towards non-intolerant groups must not be tolerated, otherwise tolerance elsewhere is destroyed.
(This mini comic explains the paradox well, as well.)
-
What you want is the government to enforce what you think the standards should be.
-
What you will get is the government enforcing what the government thinks the standards should be.
I disagree with the fundamental premise of your argument, and I cite the results of the last election is the foundation of my own.
-
[…] regulations are how we enforce social tolerance in a manner that isn’t just “I don’t like you, please stop, but also I won’t do anything to you if you keep doing it.” […]
I think a more forceful alternative could be being something like "I wont allow you into my place of business". I think one could also encounter issues with finding employment, or one could lose their current employment. Social repercussions like that can be quite powerful imo. I think the type of tolerance that's damaging is the complacent/quiet type where one simply lets them be without protest.
Furthermore, and this is something you’ll probably see brought up a lot when using that talking point, there is a paradox of tolerance that cannot be avoided when it comes to issues like Nazism. Nazi rhetoric is inherently discriminatory and intolerant. If you allow it to flourish, it kills off all other forms of tolerance until only itself is left. If you don’t tolerate Nazi rhetoric, it doesn’t come to fruition and destroy other forms of tolerance.
Any ideology that actively preaches intolerance towards non-intolerant groups must not be tolerated, otherwise tolerance elsewhere is destroyed.
I would like to clarify that I am not advocating for tolerance. It's quite the contrary. I am advocating for very vocal intolerance of these groups and their behaviors. It is simply my belief that governmental force is not a necessary means to this end, not to mention that it is incompatible with the ideas of liberalism [1], which I personally espouse.
References
- Title: "Liberalism". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-02-02T19:43Z. Accessed: 2025-02-08T05:47Z. URI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism.
- ¶1
[…] Liberals espouse various and often mutually warring views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.
- Policing speech is incompatible with the freedom of speech.
- ¶1
- Title: "Liberalism". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-02-02T19:43Z. Accessed: 2025-02-08T05:47Z. URI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism.
My thoughts exactly. I have absolutely no sympathy for Nazis, or anyone else who thinks mass murder and genocide were good policy. But one of the things that makes a free society different from Nazi Germany, is free expression. If we limit free expression to only things the people in charge want expressed, no matter how noble the intent that starts us down a very dark path very quickly.
The way we fight Nazis and racism is not by beating them up or jailing them. It's by teaching each other and our children why they are wrong, by learning and understanding what it is like to have racism directed against you. And thus, we defeat racism not with force but with empathy.
As far as I'm concerned, this is the sort of policy that would make Hitler proud. It's the sort of policy that would be enacted in Nazi Germany, or Soviet Russia.
Maybe Musk should take one of his Boeing Cyberplanes to Australia
Question for everyone supporting this: do you think saying women can't think for themselves should be classified as hate speech?
Asking for a friend.
Because if you don't see the nazis, then it's OK that they're nazis
Redefining the freedom of speech can be a slippery slope. It will depend upon who is in power and their personal views. Hate speech is something that can be targetted. There would need to be statutory limitations to prevent misuse of the legislative principles. If the Germans can do it right, so can we, wherever we live.
Any good tech companies in Australia? How hard are the citizenship requirements if you avoid all the Mel Gibsons?
The thing is this just makes it "cooler" among the Nazis because now it's illegal. It plays right into their persecution complex. It also opens up a legal morass of trying to define a hand gesture in court. To me this seems like it's fighting the symptoms and not the underlying problems.
Nonsense.
Courts are good at figuring out what constitutes an illegal action. It's what they're intended to do and what they have been doing since the dawn of civilisation.
I don't really care what Nazis think is "cool".
It's addressing the underlying problem by communicating the seriousness of the threat of fascism to everyone.
A Nazi/Hitler salut was always illegal in Germany after WW 2 and courts figured it out what counts as a nazi salute and what not (it often comes down to context i guess).
The thing is this just makes it “cooler” among the Nazis because now it’s illegal.
Only until they are caught.
Then they become martyrs for their group.
It also opens up a legal morass of trying to define a hand gesture in court> It also opens up a legal morass of trying to define a hand gesture in court I feel like that part would just be the same way porn is treated, "I [the judge] know it when I see it]
As an American, this feels wrong on the surface with our broad first amendment and all.
But when I think about it with my morality-enabled brain? Fuckin’ strewth mates! Get those cunts!
As an American, this feels wrong on the surface with our broad first amendment and all.
They do not give a rat's fuck about YOUR freedom of speech and expression, and have been fighting in every single legal and illegal manner to suppress it. At this point in time it must be acknowledged that there needs to be that limit on them to force them back into being a small pathetic group that they were and to hopefully allow society to outgrow them in the future.
They will be 'so much for the tolerant left' so matter what you do, and they will actively censor anyone and anything they don't like also no matter what. Liberals have been highly prone to hiring fascist and bigoted nutjobs in order to allow for a more 'balanced' perspective, but any attempt to make them hire more liberal minded people for their own platforms is brushed aside without a second thought. That shit doesn't work on them. They want access to your stuff while also 100% forbidding you from even looking at their stuff.
No disagreement on the reality of the evil bullshit going on around here, that’s for sure. It was just a throwaway line on my part to set up the comment, but as always the devil is in the details.
An Australian anti-fascist perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2KvtlLJyQ
Now make it retroactive and with universal jurisdiction.
Yeah. How about from 1948?
Would, say, an actor playing a Nazi officer in a movie be protected from this?
I can't see this actually happening since people who continue to commit crime, are re-released on bail.
One year's mandatory jail term for any "hate-related offenses" seems a bit far imo. Should be just a fine at least for first offense *on the lightest end, unless it's some physical attack and stuff like that.
That's basically a tax on not being rich enough to be a nazi, which... well.
Do you think the same about any traffic violation or all fines in general? We should throw people in the jail for a year, mnimum, because otherwise it's just a tax on not being rich enough for the crime?
Come on now. I'm all for having tougher sentences on the high end for hate related offenses, but a mandatory minimum being year in jail for any such offense, even some dipshit doing a Nazi salute and nothing is else, is just too much. It's like said, dipshit behaviour but hardly worth a year in jail. And it probably won't solve the issue anyway. Just putting people in jail seldom does imo. Yanks have already tried that.
You’re playing into the paradox of tolerance. Don’t do that.
It's nothing to do with paradox of tolerance to think a year's mandatory jail time for a year is pretty ridiculous for any "hate-related offenses".
I'm against in general of just throwing people into the slammer and hoping that fixes the issues. Punishment should fit the crime and some dipshit doing some Nazi salute isn't worth a year in goddamn prison. Give them a hefty fine for first time, sure, but a mandatory sentence of a year for any such offense, just seems too far.
What a nicely timed distraction from issues like housing, cost of living and health.
Albo was definitely always going to pass these laws even if Zionist gangs hadn't staged the attacks across Australia to create the headlines that triggered these laws.
Definitely wouldn't happen here in Oz!
Slippery slope
Yeah its bad, but jail time for it?
So this is Australia, but imagine we did something like this in the USA. A Nazi salute is a form of hate crime against Jewish people, would it also be illegal to use Racial Slurs?
Many countries do have hate-speech laws, and law against Nazi propaganda.
As usual intent and context matters, but I don't see why you should defend the right to use racial slur in a racist manier
A Nazi salute is a form of hate crime against Jewish people, would it also be illegal to use Racial Slurs?
Why would it? One does not imply the other.
Also, a Nazi salute isn't just a slur. It's (at least) signaling that you want a bunch of groups exterminated (Jews are one of those many groups).
Even Jewish people defend Nazis right to free speech:
But go ahead & tell everyone how saluting is a hate crime. Now imagine your right to protest, or say something negative about the President being taken away because you didn't like free speech.
That's a bit too much. That's a country with Gallipoli battles being matter of national myth, right? And they use it the way of praising WWI Ottomans as a worthy enemy. That'd be Young Turks, that'd be the genocide of Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks in those very years.
Jail for a salute seems a bit unbalanced.
Acting like it's just any old salute is weird.
The point is to jail people you disagree with by whatever means palatable to the general public. You can't just run around jailing people, you have to have a reason.
Nazis aren't "people you disagree with". They're anti-social violence-worshippers, and in this Australian context, terrorists grooming children. The main Australian neo-Nazi group literally had leadership get caught applying for a job in disability services when they said they only wanted to work cases for young boys[1]. ASIO have emphasised the decreasing age of NSNs membership. Their strategy, like many neo-Nazi orgs, is to indoctrinate and recruit disaffected and alienated teenagers.
Soon protesting or advocating against the genocide in Gaza & speaking out against ethnic cleansing will be considered a hate crime too. Remember, this is what you wanted when you said no to free speech, regardless if it was something that offended you.
I heard they throw you in jail for stabbing someone, what's next, throwing you in jail for buying a knife? Stop this slippery slope! #allowstabbing #freestabbingabsolutist
Yeah makes no sense & you sound like an idiot. Maybe they should lock you up for what you just said.
Multiple front page Reddit articles about this as well. Look at the downvote ratio compared to discussions. Israel just pulling the strings as usual & everyone is falling for it, as they plan to take over Gaza & call you all Nazis for opposing it.
Curse you, Israel! How dare you get people to call those doing Nazi salutes Nazis in Australia with your... kabbalistic magic?
More like Israel why do you show your population non-stop propaganda & conscript them to join your military & engage in psyops & social media influence on your behalf. This is all verifiable on Wikipedia BTW with references.
Also no one cares that they get called Nazis. I care when you start locking people up for expressing themselves in ways that are non violent. Lock up all the Nazis assaulting people you want, but when you start assaulting people for what they wear or hand signs they make, then you become the violent criminal.