These guys are really entertaining. Flat earth people are boring by comparison. Sovcits will use 15 legal and Latin terms they learned from their redneck uncle, cram all of them into a single rage Facebook post not understanding what any of them mean. Wonderful.
Forget the Facebook rage. Hit up YouTube or your favorite more free alternative and you can watch amazingly confident sovcit nitwits square up against cops and judges.
What's a Sovcit?
A sovereign citizen is a loosely associated group of right wing anti-government extremists that emerged in the 1970s as an offshoot of the white supremacist religion Christian Identity. They believe they are not governed by the laws of where they live (hence sovereign), and that they are not required to have licenses, plates, insurance, ID, etc, and that they can pay bills by sending in nonsense correspondence with magic codes they think will eradicate their debt. They believe the government holds a 2 million dollar secret trust in everyone's name and that you can pay your bills by "accessing" that trust through magic paperwork. They are a huge nuisance to cops and courts, "paper terrorize" the government to the tune of millions per year in frivolous litigation, and are a frequent source of hilarity in YouTube for their notorious traffic stop videos where they almost always end up dragged out of their car. They are properly bonkers.
Redneck uncle? Guess those Sov Cits are a diverse bunch. The few I have ever dealt with were minority, a couple black Americans and the most memorable was a Carribean Islander (my guess from accent, surprisingly he didn't want to show me his Passport).
A lot of sovcits are black and belong to a branch of the Moorish Science Temple.
I love how every sovcit post here could be posted to [email protected]
I need to start cross posting. No reason those folks should miss out.
I swear, I've read a few of these and they sound like they're playing some kinda fantasy tabletop game that's stupid thick with weird rules and builds, and their staring at all of us like "obviously you can mix a hexblade with an abrant mind for optimal spells and subtle spells, and the DM is pissed I got silvery barbs, but I showed him how it's an official spell so they should let me use it, but if i get aspect of the moon I don't have to sleep so I can short rest to replace my spells lots for free and then I can convert...."
Can anyone actually explain what this person THINKS their rights are here? Like, are they just saying "you can't give me a moving violation fine because I never signed up for that so it's theft and slavery"? Or is there something more nuanced to their argument that I'm missing?
EDIT: Thank you to everyone who has contributed. My big takeaway from this is that sovcits pick and choose which legal language to believe like a modern American Catholic picks and chooses Bible verses to believe. 👍
You know how dogs don’t necessarily understand the words you’re saying to get them to do a trick, or why they’re doing the trick? It’s basically that, if dogs thought they could make you do tricks by barking correctly. How much lead exposure factors into it is up for debate.
When you are born, the government creates a fake corporate entity with your same name. That's the thing that accrues the debts, fines, and jail sentences, not you the person. As long as you never sign a document in black or blue ink they cannot assign those to you because of arcane law stuff.
They think that because they do not "create joinder" by accepting the ticket that it doesn't apply to them. They will "rescind" them by sending them back with some nonsense written on it at a 45 degree angle in red ink with a thumbprint and believe that cancels the ticket. Here is an example.
I would argue the drivers license is the proof of a contract stating you’ll follow the law pertaining to it. The ticket is a penalty for breaking that contract, not a new contract. But I know their lack of understanding logic.
I won't claim I know what the "Truth in Lending" act is, or if it refers to red ink at a 45 degree angle. But even if it is real, I highly doubt it has anything to do with moving violations.
I frequently have to explain to people that the statue of limitations does not mean a ticket from 20 years ago is done with.
Abstractly, we as people in society abide a social contract. Not a physical document we signed but a general expectation we all hold of each other in how we interact as citizens.
He appears to reject this style of thinking and refuse the consequences of this social contract because it isn't something they've actually consented into, like you would when signing a physical contract.
So to this person this traffic ticket is a debt placed on them by someone with no authority to do so.
Typically it's people who get pulled into this thought process when seeking legal help and are unable to distinguish good advice from bad advice. They join these groups of like minded people and it becomes a blind leading the blind scenario. Or by someone trying to scam them with 'lessons'.
I think it stems from the complex nature of law there's some things that sound so fake that are real that it blurs the lines. For example the US Congress can authorize ordinary people to engage in maritime theft against other nations.
The Articles of Confederation had some language in it. Those were quite famously superceded by a little document we call the Constitution. Sovcits will sometimes reference language used in the Articles to claim random stuff that just doesn't apply.
They'll also find random laws that can use niche definitions and stuff. As a sort of example, there's a section of federal law that pretty clearly excludes your personal car from the definition of "motor vehicle". Though I didn't dig much further, the definitions section began with, "For the purposes of this chapter the following definitions apply." Emphasis mine. They then use this to say states are not allowed to supercede
feedersfederal law and therefore the state is wrong.
It's always these people trespassing on other people's property and then wondering why there's consequences.
It's not even that hard to get permission. Just register for use of the roads, chip in your money to keep them open and running, and you get to use the government's property all you like! Just respect their rules like you would any property owner, and you can
drivetravel on their roads as much as you need. If it were anyone else's roads, you'd probably get denied and then shot unless you paid a huge access fee. Use of state property is amazingly easy and reasonable.It's not even being able to use them, anyone has the right to travel on foot or by non-motorized bike. It's specifically driving heavy machinery that can tear up the roads or injure someone you need a license for (ie, a car). Though even then, there are still rules to follow as a pedestrian.
It’s not even that hard to get permission.
Depends heavily on who you are and how much money you actually have. A lot of these SovCits are poor, uneducated, and disconnected from their neighbors. They're easy marks for legal con-men and law enforcement alike.
If you've never had to deal with the legal system before and suddenly you're at risk of getting your car impounded or your home foreclosed, you'll be a prime target for these esoteric theories. And, at some point, you have to recognize the legal system as a social construct. It works because we all agree it works. If you're dealing with a guy from rural Tennessee or small town West Texas - someone who never graduated 8th grade, spent half his life working a gas well or stocking shelves, and whose primary source of news is AM talk radio - they aren't going to have the background or the incentive to integrate with a modern system. Particularly not one owned and operated by some thugs in law enforcement or a snob judge more interested in a shake down than a fair shake.
You're back to the old Lockean Social Contract. And once you scrape off all the gibberish, that's what you're really fighting over.
Calling the judge a burger flipper. That's a good tactic.
Judges love that kind of thing.
Well, folders do look like 2 slices of cardboard with paper inside, a bit like a paperburger. And judges flip them, yes. These are UNDENIABLE FACTS!
Judges hate this ONE trick! Click here to find out how.
Omg those ads of yore never said the trick actually worked
I wouldn't say it is only a sovcit that can turn a fine into jail time, but very often it is a sovcit when that happens.
When I’m reading one of these, I never know if it’s the nonsensical rant of a stubborn asshole, or someone who genuinely needs psychiatric help. In other words, I don’t know whether it’s okay to laugh or not.
Welp... this post just confirmed to me what I've been suspecting about a friend I've been distancing myself from for years. I didn't realize they call themselves "nationals," so he's definitely a sovcit of the "moorish" variety based on a few things he's said. Progressively more and more fucking exhausting to talk to over the last ten years with the woo woo moronic shit and this is the most recent nonsense.
Definitely a sovcit. Some of them are Moorish Temple adherents, usually they are black. Others call themselves American state nationals or sometimes secured party creditors. Or private citizens is another one.
He is black, and I'm guessing moorish temple based on his comments and other things he's dabbled in. Most of what he dabbles in has roots in black nationalism that I recognize. Funnily enough, there's occasional veiled nazi shit I think he's unaware of, though given the far right nature of it all, I'm not surprised his uninformed ass stumbles across them. What is also strange, I do not think he harbors racial hate, though he may have some homo/transphobia. I'm not entirely sure because I'm not interested in listening to that shit. Though it would fit with the far right pipeline.
It's roleplay. These people are roleplaying administrative skills, with fantasy names and concepts
It's frustrating, because there's a kernel of truth to all this. Government identities exist to manage credits and debts. If you've got a driver's license and you're caught speeding (or merely accused of it by a cop with a quota to fill), then you can be assigned a debt that can be used to garnish wages or seize property.
But... there's no secret cheat code to avoiding these debts by simply denying the identity a government has on file isn't yours. And while we can argue the fairness of the system, I don't think there's any doubt of its efficacy. A sheriff and his deputies can absolutely collect, whether you consent or not.
Roleplaying like this is how these folks are coping. It helps give them the courage and the self-determination to resist the guys in uniforms who do the dirty work of the system. Its irrational, sure. But when you get down to material conditions, its either "Believe a crazy mishmash of weird shit so you can justify fighting back" or "Accept the status quo and surrender".
That is really well said
Peter Griffin seceding from the USA and establishing Petoria made more sense than sovcits do.
Sovcit: people who live in a society who believe they are entitled to all its privileges without any of the responsibilities
I was reading that as Soviet Citizen.
In Soviet Russia, contract refuses you!
SovSovCit
That’ll show ‘em! Sure.
They've become hip to the stereotypes associated with that term.
Same with QAnon lately…
Makes me wonder what stereotypes we have of the two groups they would contest.
Exactly the opposite thing happened with Queer: there was nothing wrong with it and it is being reclaimed.
