Discord going public. Plz help a future refugee.
Discord going public. Plz help a future refugee.
Discord was already succumbing to enshitification. Now with their intention to be owned by Wall Street, that trajectory will certainly accelerate at warp speed once the change of hands happens.
Anyone already get ahead of this and find a solid alternative?
Right now I'm on the fence between Element for Matrix, and Revolt. Both seem to have their pros and cons and I can't find a clear "winner".
Ever looked up XMPP ?
And Snikket for super-easy setup and management
mumble is great for VOIP.
Matrix seems interesting, but i think it might be a little bit too heavy handed, im not personally a fan of web tech, though there are other things like xmpp as well.
revolt is meh, apparently their dev team is hostile to self hosting, so there's that. There's also spacebar, which is a reverse engineered implementation of the discord API, could be interesting.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by web tech? I don't know much about how matrix works
a lot of modern technology and software is built on the foundation of work built by the web browser industry, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not necessarily a good thing either. Provides a lot of nice features, native integration into a web browser, industry standard security and encryption procedures.
That's about it though, Outside of that, running a dedicated version of that app is almost always some bullshit built in electron, which is a horrible buggy mess with horrible performance. Nothing stops devs from integrating these features into a standalone application... But, they likely won't since they've already developed a web browser version.
I also have some problems with the way web tech is generally built, it's built with the expectation that you will host and treat it as a web app, which is fine, it works. But i prefer not to host services i use via anything web related as generally i find it both intrusive, and problematic, in the instance that a DNS server goes down for example. (it's not very likely, i know, but still)
I also think a lot of the networking protocols are fairly bloated, but that's not as big of a deal, it's just annoying.
anyway, enough of my ranting. Matrix is actually a specification for a set of communication protocols based on the foundation of web tech, it's highly universal, and inter-compatible, which is great. But it sort of stops there. There are several server implementations, and numerous front end implementations, none of which seem to be particularly, interesting. There's numerous electron front ends, a few that aren't (though they won't support most features) etc, stuff like that, it's just. Not clean.
Way too few mentions of Jitsi.
I use it with friends, it has good server config, and I'm pushing it on businesses.
they are owned by a Nasdaq-listed company. does that not the defeat the purpose when OP is trying to avoid Wall Street-ownership?
Just self-host it? It's open-source, that will last you a lifetime.
Explain more of this Jitsi, sounds interesting for my business
It's voice and video calling with chat and screensharing. I intend to use it for a language school. It's extendable, for instance you can also self-host a whiteboard, where everyone can draw. You can see the drawing in real time, which is good for asian languages, where direction of the stroke is important.
Free, open-source, packaged in Debian, runs without issues, used it with friends for multi-hour voice chats during gaming nights.
On the server you can configure things like FPS for screenshare. I have yet to adjust that and try streaming video/game through it.
I've also been comparing Element and Revolt. Both seem really solid, both are open source and both are self-hostable. Hard to find any downsides there.
There's a discord server that me and a bunch of friends use as our main hangout. They've raised the prospect of bailing before things enshittify, and of course I've been tasked with pitching a replacement. For my money, Revolt is the way I'm going to go, specifically because it's basically a one for one clone of Discord. The people I'm pitching this to are a mix of technical and non-technical, so I think something that looks and feels like what they're used to will be the easiest transition.
It also feels like Element is geared pretty heavily towards being a replacement for Slack / Teams rather than a replacement for Discord. Their pitch seems a lot more focused on the enterprise market. Revolt seems more focused on gaming, casual hangout, that sort of thing.
I like Element a lot, but for me it doesn't feel like the right solution to this specific problem. But if I was pitching something to my work as a Teams replacement, Element is definitely the way I'd go.
Man I wish my online friends were that easy to switch.
As soon as I mention Lemmy "what's wrong with reddit". As soon as I mention element "but everyone uses whatsapp/discord".
It suck that 90% of the people are stuck in their old ways and refuse to try anything new.
Hell I almost got banned for even mentioning lemmy once.
Silly question perhaps, but I haven't tripped across it on the site for Revolt -- is there a relatively straight forward server version for self-hosting, or is it just that the source is on github and you can compile it in theory if you feel like goin through that process... ?
The most straight forward I see appears to be Docker hosting
https://github.com/revoltchat/self-hosted
https://developers.revolt.chat/faq.html#admonition-what-can-i-do-with-revolt-and-how-do-i-self-host
If you're looking to self host but are uncomfortable with Docker I recommend checking out YunoHost as an option for something a bit simpler, they also support Revolt
if discord is going public they don't need my turbo sub anymore
Cancelled mine when they redesigned the mobile app anyway. I don't want a different interface on mobile vs desktop. I want a unified experience, which was their original purpose.
Matrix is the way. It's federated and you can have your own server.
I've started my self-hosting journey having Matrix in mind - especially the Matrix bridges to cut off the need to use social media clients like Discord.
Today, I'm slowly convicting my friends to join my instance. So far, that's just one of the closest ones (still win for me).
I hope one day decentralization in social media would take off!
I JUST managed to get my closest ring outside my family to join Signal.
We have a total of 7 people now.
I'd light up a server and host matrix/frendica/lemmy/mastodon/headscale in an instant if I thought I could get those 7 to join.
Just remember your friend, https://discorch.org/
Thank you for sharing this link! Fucking wild times we are in.
Matrix is nice, and you can have jitsi for calls integrated. It seems to be pretty popular; Lemmy has a field for matrix @ in user profiles. Never heard of revolt before.
I use Jitsi for a non-profit, and I like the mute someone else function, but oh wow the noise cancellation needs improvement. So many voice comm apps have disappeared (there used to be one our group used all the time, then the devs dropped it (the client app) and just became on API or something).
XMPP?
Ah this is so exciting!
Discord 'existing' has held back development motivation on Foss Federated Communication alternatives.
When they go public only good things will happen for projects like matrix :)
I'm very excited!
I feel like matrix isn't a one-to-one replacement. It's a good slack replacement.
I haven't used matrix enough to know for sure but does it have the discord equivalent of servers?
those are called spaces there. but there's no flexible roles system. also no hop-on voice channels yet, but that's a client feature so maybe that's a bit different
Mumble?
it's Element/Matrix if we're lucky. Revolt is just another Discord - surely this single company will last! With Element/Matrix being an open protocol, it won't be a "platform" you have to leave when it goes corporate.
Sadly I found out yesterday:
Matrix is not a community-based software, it was born [00] in Amdocs [01], a multinational corporation founded in Israel.
https://hackea.org/notas/matrix.html
Many were claiming its impossible to get contributions merged as well.
I would be happy to find out this information is wrong or outdated.
Revolt is F/OSS
https://github.com/revoltchat/
It's not just a company with a clone of Discord, all the server back end, etc is open.
Yes, which is good, but the lack of federation is a deal-breaker. It means that you either:
- Use their servers - This requires entrusting them with your communities, just like Discord.
- Host your own private instance - You can control it, but the lack of federation means it'll be isolated from communicating with other communities. This makes it really difficult to convince people to use your self-hosted servers.
Until Revolt adds a way for different instances to federate, Matrix is really the only other option.
Nheko provides an interface that is reminiscent of Discord. Fully featured and fast Matrix client.
Thank you for the recommendation. I tried element a while ago and found it lacking. Matrix must be the way forward. Disregarding IRC of course.
Is there any option to stay on discord but better? Like vencord or something similar through Linux? I cannot imagine being able to get my friends off of discord ever.
I guess that's the biggest hurdle, especially when it comes to social apps. One tech-savvy person wanting to migrate is usually not enough to start moving a community, even as a small as a group of friends.
Had to experience that first hand. I tried to get my best friends to register on my Matrix server last September and join a room for our group, and they did, but I rarely see any of them online and I only get responses days later, if at all. One even stopped using it entirely, lol. Ah well, but at least I got a Matrix server out of that that I can use to federate with other like-minded people.
Honestly, I am ready to go straight back to TeamSpeak.
I miss hosting my own server and having full access and control over it
I used to just host it on a piece of shit. 2003 Dell XP machine I put Ubuntu on
Hell yah, TS3 crew all the way. (Or TS5 for the zoomers...)
My nerds herd recently also set up a cluster of Matrix Synapse servers so we got our little "We have Telegram at home" set up. Getting non-tech people to accept that this is how to find me has been tricky without sounding like a digital prepper.
TS 6 looks so good. I can't seem to figure out it's release window though. Along with the mobile app being updated. Once those are done I plan to move over.
TeamSpeak exists too
Teamspeak is alright, in fact we use it along with discord for inter-channel Comms. But discord does a lot of stuff that ts doesn't touch
That's a throwback. Let's take it one step further and just get back on Ventrilo and play some DOTA. (For the younger folks who don't get the reference: https://youtu.be/aTJncWndUB8 )
I still have my copy. I cannot believe that song is like, 18 years old now. It was such a staple of my college experience.
Used to use Vent playing Eve Online 19 years ago. Worked great back then. Apparently it's still around, but still no Linux support after all these years.
Mumble!
Tmspk egssts tuh
Me and my brother are using teamspeak to this day.
If you just need voice comms and basic chat mumble/murmur has worked great for me for ages.
An alternative would need screen share, just voip is not enough any more.
The problem is that performant screenshare (to multiple users) more or less requires infrastructure. That requires money, and it's impossible to compete on price with services that have the VC-enshitification model.
You can get around this in a few ways, but they're all tradeoffs that are in some way or other worse than discord.
- P2P - sacrifice latency, reliability
- direct multi-stream - sacrifice PC performance and/or bitrate
- paid infrastructure - sacrifice money
I think P2P is still the way to go. Sure it's not perfect, but it's simpler and by it's very nature doesn't require the infrastructure we know will be a problem.
Plus, don't forget screen sharing in discord isn't very good as is (720p30) if you're not a paid user.
TeamSpeak recently added screen share to their TS6 beta, however it currently only works on official servers provided by TeamSpeak; they have not yet released TS6 server software, only the client. To my understanding, they are thankfully still planning on releasing it though.
Damn TS3 was still kinda wet behind the ears and maybe even still in beta last time I played with it. I only used it for one group and I cut ties with them.
I never even used it, I only know TS2 and it's purplish, super basic ugly interface. (If anyone even remembers that- would've been back in mid to late 00s)
What if you had OBS create a "camera" of your screen, and then use that through video chat?
Ah, the good old "screenshare not working on wayland" workaround!
Most of the discords I’m on never use screen share for anything.
All the ones I'm on, around 30, it's the only thing it's used for.
honestly that isnthe only thing that stopd me from going all in on teamspeak/mumble
i just need a screen sharing solution (not necessarily built into those tools)
Honest question, but on a technical level isn’t discord basically IRC with some bells, whistles, emojis, and a some WebRTC Logic wrapped in electron with a large marketing budget? Throw in some cloud storage and a CDN for images. What am I missing? I’m not saying it’s “easy”, but I’m curious what it would take to build a solid streamlined FOSS alternative built on combining existing technologies.
Edit: I’m not familiar with the ecosystem… is the issue with existing FOSS bad UI and complicated onboarding? Missing features? Or is it simply a critical mass issue?
In addition to the replies you got already, discord has screen sharing/streaming. An experience kind of like zoom (I don't use it and dont see the appeal but maybe someone who does can elaborate more. My partner uses this feature sometimes).
I commonly will be in a call with friends, where we all stream the games we are playing independently to each other.
Another use case, one person screen shares YouTube for group watching
And one more, we will often play chess and screen share so others can watch.
This is for a group of 3-10 people typically
A group of friends use this every weekend to play party games (Like jackbox games). One person streams and everyone uses a browser to interact.
If I want to show a friend a new game, I use it as well.
Discord is not even necessarily Electron. I'm running it as Datcord, which is a Firefox based wrapper.
Discord has a searchble chat history, which is what sets it apart from IRC. Everything else can be emulated by modern IRC clients, such as emoji and embedded / unfurling images and link previews.
However imagine the chat history as if you had a bouncer that has 100% uptime and joined all possible chat channels from their creation, along with offering you search and buffer.
If not IRC, either Matrix or XMPP should be capable of this.
I'm fairly sure Discord's popularity was due to aggressive marketing, likely during their venture capital funding rounds. Something which FOSS does not have.
Does IRC have performant voicechat?
That would be the WebRTC logic.
The main benefit I remember from jumping to Discord from IRC back in the day was the ability to easily see past messages. That said, I'm not sure if that's a problem anymore on IRC since I haven't used it in ages. Even then, I don't think it would be too terribly difficult to whip up a self-hostable fediverse competitor to Discord. It would essentially be IRC++.
It's probably more of a critical mass issue, though not near the level of Reddit vs Lemmy or Twitter vs Bluesky vs Mastodon. Every Discord server is essentially a walled garden. A Discord server doesn't hold much advantage over a Slack server, GroupMe, Teams, or IRC. For that reason, it would be a lot easier to move individual communities over.
One of the major draws of discord is the fact that they host the servers for you, for free. Anyone can make an account, click a button, and have a discord server.
Afaik matrix does allow this (haven't used it personally) but it's something where I am a bit worried about hosting costs if it reaches a large scale. (Also unsure about how the matrix protocol works precisely, but if defederation is a thing which I feel like it has to be, I can see it leading to huge pains since discords use case is often about being part of a specific communitu, as opposed to twitter or reddit. Being unable to join a groip or see some messsges because of federation issues would be a major headache).
I'm running a Matrix server with a FB Messenger bridge via mautrix-meta and that makes it a clear winner. Half my group chats have migrated entirely since I've set my close friends up with accounts in my server and they also use the bridge. The fact that people can slowly migrate chats without losing messages or groups is killer for adoption imo.
Did you follow a guide, or know one you could link? I'm thinking this is the path for me and my friends too.
My humble experience so far: https://kcross.engineering/blogs/matrixandmautrix/
Biggest thing so far is "go slow on federation". Large federated servers are where you get into trouble with resource requirements and needing to spin up workers, etc. Small, private servers are relatively easy.
I can try to write some stuff up, it's not super complex. Core requirement for my setup is Docker + a domain. I recommend Linux host but you can make Docker Desktop work.
Let me write some stuff down this week.
Are you saying you can import chat history with a bridge some how? I don't remember that being an issue, but would be very handy
I'm messaging Facebook users over Matrix via the bridge.
This sounds great. If you end up writing something for the other commenter using a Linux server and the Messenger bridge I would love to hear if there were any pitfalls to avoid!
My humble experience so far: https://kcross.engineering/blogs/matrixandmautrix/
Biggest thing so far is "go slow on federation". Large federated servers are where you get into trouble with resource requirements and needing to spin up workers, etc. Small, private servers are relatively easy.
It never made sense to me how popular discord was to begin with.
- persistent IRC style chat rooms
- virtual “servers” to organize said chat rooms, manage privileges, control visibility
- integration with bots for all sorts of things (moderation, user welcome, dice rollers, etc.)
- integration with games/music players/etc (I don’t use it but it’s very popular)
- privacy and moderation controls
- client allows fine grained notification controls
- voice, video, and screen casting simultaneously
- “server” templates: use an existing server config (roles, permissions, rooms, etc.) when creating a new server.
That’s just off the top of my head.
It’s enshittifying, but the value proposition is still hard to beat. I’m really hoping Matrix catches up with the feature set soon.
@[email protected] Among my friends, it replaced Facebook Messenger, Teamspeak, and Mumble instantly. It was fast and the voice quality was excellent. The appeal in 2017 was obvious. The bloat that it had tacked onto it since then is egregious.
Don't get me started on the "rewards"...
Don't forget free servers.
On TS3 it was to either know a friend that rented/hosted it, rent/host it yourself or use a public server.The bloat that it had tacked onto it since then is egregious.
VCs gotta make back that ROI...
Funny, I remember in 2017 the voice chat had mic issues all the time but now that works much better. But I suppose everything else got bloated..
Other voice chat programs were crap, discord was significantly better and more consistent. Simple as. It still has features way ahead of other services. The business side is shitty but it works without anyone needing to know anything with no troubleshooting.
It used to be fast and not full of useless bloat like what you see right now. The usual enshittification.
man I wish mumble had a better interface and a chat function, it could real FOSS competition with Discord, but the lack of a chat feature is holding it back
Started hosting a mumble server for gaming maybe six months ago and have been using it daily. Really happy with it.
I don't have a guild to host for anymore, but I used to host one years ago and it was solid as a rock. I am glad mumble is still going strong
It's so much easier to set up and install than Matrix.
It’s so much easier to set up and install than Matrix.
Unbelievably so. Mumble is... basically one setup command. Don't even need a domain. And it needs absolutely no resources, can run on a Pi Zero.
Setting up my own Matrix server was honestly one of the most difficult things I've ever attempted in decades of non-professionally using computers and I'm still not sure I'd be able to properly take care of the installation if it breaks. Sooo many moving parts. All the federation-oriented projects that rely on adoption rates reaaaaally desperately need setup wizards before any other additional feature.
that and screen sharing
There's no text chat in mumble? Really? (I seem to remember otherwise, sorry)
There is text chat but it’s not persistent, or very customizable.
Its been ages for me, so I may be incorrect now. I think the chat is not persistent and I am pretty sure there is no channels. Its most definitely not set up how discord is where its more of a chat client that has voice rather than a voice client that has chat.
https://spacebar.chat/ looks like it will eventually be good, it looks like it's in its infancy right now though
Matrix.
Matrix is spectacularly cursed to the point of being unusable if you self-host it. The protocol is dumb enough to lock you out of rooms hosted on another server forever if anything goes wrong with the key rotation.
What are your thoughts on xmpp? Recently I have come to like a lot and am pretty active with friends there.
There are people using xmpp? Last time I set up a server and tried using it with Pidgin, I couldn't find a soul that used it
They're out there. The Venn diagram of people still choosing IRC (as opposed to being forced to use it b/c that's where the community is) is probably just a circle.
I was a big XMPP user back in the day, but because of the lack of multi-device message syncing and the really shoddy state of encryption, I wandered away. Plus, using XML for the protocol really geeked me out. XML is a document format, and per the spec, to be well-formed it needs to have an open and matching close tag. Jabber hacked around this by making a sort of infinite document - you get the open tag, but never the close tag - and it just felt really icky.
I understand a lot of these things have since been addressed. I don't know if XMPP still uses that bastardized version of quasi-XML without a close tag. But other things have come along that I like more. About 6 months ago I started running a client on my desktop again, but like you, nobody I knew was still using it, and nobody new was advertising it as their connection info, so... yeah. After a few months, I stopped running the client.
xmpp is still valid but the new kid on the block is activitypub. I don't think I've ever hosted an xmpp server but to me it's a better suited (mature, focused)protocol with plenty to offer that AP can't yet.
having said that, stillll no moderation on free networks.
XMPP feels dated and has to much protocol sprawl.
Alternatives to discord, open source or not:
If you're self hosting, it's Revolt. But the default instance limits you to 20mb or something for files, which is a problem for me, personally.
Just use croc to share files. Then size doesn't matter.
Yes that sounds super convenient...
Element/matrix all the way
if you want something that looks like discord there are themes for the clients, there's even commet.chat for a discord like experience (but they haven't added calls yet)
Calls and easily sharing my screen are 90% of my use cases for Discord. The entire appeal of it initially was that it was a more functional Ventrilo with both text and voice channels. Hopefully something FOSS gets further developed by the time Discord completely shits the bed.
Then i'd recommend the element client in particular.
https://github.com/aaronraimist/element-themes/tree/master/Discord
^^ there's also this!
Its been a while since I used Revolt, I use element everyday. But I'd prefer something more "third party" too. Revolt was servicable back in 2020, maybe it has gotten better?
I've been tinkering with old BBS software :)
Kibo lives!!!!1
Why use Element for matrix?
From what I can tell it collets and links data to you: Location, identifiers and contact information.
How is that private or better than Signal?
Signal is centralized and require a phone number to register, it's not private at all.
That’s bullshit.
A) Privacy =/= anonymity
B) They have usernames and the option to hide your number from searches for those interested.
C) Signal has absolutely no way of accessing any of your information: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ They publish all their subpoenas and there is no information that are able to collect. It’s all encrypted.
D) Phone numbers are an easy way onboard the normies and Meta addicts that don’t value privacy.
Because people don't use discord for privacy. They use it for gaming, voice chat, communities and streaming.
@Nikelui is 100% right: a chat room may be private, but it's not secure. Even in an encrypted room, every additional person you add reduces your security. I'm sure there's some paper out there that studies this, and that the graph of # of members vs security is an inverse power ratio.
If it's a public chat, there is no security.
However, with Matrix, if you run your own server and restrict access to your friends, at least you can be fairly certain your chat room isn't being used to train an LLM, or to harvest information about you for advertising.
I use Signal for private and personal messages. I use Discord solely for gaming and voicechat. A good alternative doesn't need to be overly private (although that would be a bonus of course). It just needs to have a good UI and feature parity with Discord.
There is a difference between willing information that you put out there and data gathering that goes on without your consent.
Location data is something I don’t want anyone collecting without my consent.
Why does Element need to know where I’m located? Why is that being gathered with my identifiers?
Does it? On Android, it never asked me to grant location permission unless I try to share my location to another user. Similar with contacts and calendar, it's working perfectly fine without them. Where exactly does it link those identifiers and with what?
The Element web client will break encryption when you clear your browser data.
Does it? I think it logs you out and after logging in again, you need to provide your encryption key/verify with other device again in order to access the history. Or wdym with breaking?
Isn’t the data sharing optional? I’m pretty sure it asks you on first startup and you can decline.
Somebody needs to create an XMPP/Jitsi hybrid
Jitsi-meet is already using xmpp under the hood.
But there are some efforts to add multi-user video calls to full xmpp clients as well. Dino can already do it for a while, and Movim and Libervia recently added experimental support.
Its not quite a full Discord replacement, but for private groups it works quite well.
rocketchat seems decent
This would be the perfect time for someone to throw up a nice UI for a webrtc based voice chat platform in the browser. Nothing to install, no crazy permission/server setup. Just create a room and invite your friends. Boom, team based voice chat.
Jitsi-meet does that. Easy to install as well.
