Author is painting men as needing forgiveness as if we're just crossing lines like it's our nature.
That's patriarchy baby. Same genesis as "boys will be boys" or basically that males can't control themselves, so society needs adapt to their fickle moods
Shhh it's not sexism be quiet.
I'm pretty sure it is, and no.
My daughters are wayyyyy more forgiving then my wife.
My wife is wayyyyy more forgiving than my mother lol.
You guys get forgiveness?
Yeah, was about to say my mom would beat me with kitchen utensils until they broke for eating her crackers. My daughters just kind of hug me and say “it’s ok, dad”.
This is the kind of bullshit an alcoholic mom posts after she loses custody.
yeah yeah, we get it, you have forgiving mothers, nice humble brag.
Well my mother wasn't forgiving so I guess I'm screwed.
The same should be true in reverse. Couples should be trying to compassionately make each other better, no matter what gender they are. And kids lose their mind a bit when they realize their parents are humans with faults. I think that's part of where teenage angst and rebellion comes from.
There's no need to gender this unless we want to specifically talk about toxic culture.
Why in earth would I compare the woman I'm blasting with my mother?! That's kinda weird.
Your mother is kind of hot, so...
I go in with a lot of fervour myself, but "blasting"?
⚠️FREUD ALERT FREUD ALERT⚠️
I think men in general have a wake-up moment when they realize no woman is going to love them the same way their mother did, that romantic love does not work the same way as familial love.
And the worst part is, if you find a woman whose love feels like your mother's love, RUN.
I can't speak for all men because I've only really known a few dozen of them well enough to judge. But I don't remember me or any of my friends having or needing one of those moments.
The forgiveness thing is legit though. Our kids remember ALL the times we fucked up. Frustrated remarks that would roll off your spouses back are not forgotten by kids - because it hurts them more.
Jokes on them I don't even love myself
I hope not. My mother would beat me with whatever she could grab and once cut up all my socks because I pull them up too far.
Good lord the discourse here is about as well as the man or bear discussions.
Something I notice is how everytime someone makes these kinds of criticisms, the counterarguments turn into a pit of semantics and extropolations. As if the original post was a massive research thesis rather than just women venting frustration over the entitlement and danger they're subjected to daily.
You gotta look past the specific wording to see the overarching societal themes, emotions, and issues. It's like those magic eye pictures.
I thought the funniest part about the man vs bear stuff was women saying how they'd pick the bear because "at least it was honest about wanting to kill me" lmao
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was. Posts like this bring it right out. I can't believe how many upvotes some of these red-pill-ass comments have. It's really discouraging to see and often makes me too nervous to speak up on women's issues here on Lemmy, lest I be absolutely brigaded.
At least the bear can't use a keyboard and thus wouldn't be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there's another instance where I'd choose a bear over a random man.
Lemmy is a lot less women-friendly, queer-friendly, trans-friendly than the rest of the fediverse. That really needs to change.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
Absolute mood.
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was
Surprised if true
Had to scroll waaay too far to find something sane.
It’s insane. They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape when women don’t immediately trust them to go into dark alleys with them and when a woman just says explicitly, off the top, what she wants and it doesn’t line up with their desires they go feral telling her unreasonable she’s being.
They talk such big shit about being generalized and then in turn refuse to accept a woman’s individual choices and preferences. They don’t even stop to understand that women cannot read minds to know who’s safe or not, and frankly just in that they kinda show exactly why they might be having trouble.
—
“I’d just like some basic emotional maturity.”
“Ok so this one time a woman was mean to me so real quick I’m gunna weaponize that and tell you that it gives me permission to be a big fucking baby.”
What does this even mean?
"Men lose their mind" = they start shouting and shitting on the floor in disbelief?
"Daughters aren't as forgiving as their wives": forgiving what exactly? Mistakes?
It's like they think they're saying something profound and agreeing with each other but saying nothing of value (as is natural on twitter).
I think it's speaking about women who "allow" bad behavior.
Like, maybe the man's mom used to do all his chores for him without asking, so he comes to expect it. His wife, who is not his mother, says he has to do his own laundry and maybe puts their foot down about the whole "weaponized incompetence" some men use. The man is surprised, because he didn't expect his wife to be "less forgiving" than this mother, who just gave us and did it for him.
For daughters, sometimes daughters (or just children in general) , as an outside observer to the relationship, can tell that one parent is shit (in this case, the father). While the wife may go, "He didn't meant it, he's just tired," the daughter may not be "as forgiving" and just say he is abusive.
However, I don't think either of these are gender specific. Just depnsends on the dynamic at play.
Or, you know, kids haven’t got the same grasp of adult life that grown ups do.
I have a 23 year old daughter. She has a job, an education, is currently travelling the world and she’s still really very immature in many ways. I know there be will be people that age right now reading this and hating it and you know you’re really still very far away from really getting this but there is SO much in life that we have to learn to let go. SO many failures of our own and of others that we need to find a way to live with. It took me a long, long time to really get to the point where I was able to forgive the world for being a place where certain bad things had happened. That’s the thing that finally allowed me to keep looking for goodness, to struggle for hope instead of being angry with reality. You look deep into any maladjustment be it drug addiction, eating disorders, rage, pretty much any negative compulsion - deep down in there it’s this. It’s this inability to forgive the world for being a place where bad things can happen. Which is clearly a child-like response to not getting our way. Only now “getting our way”, like it’s not that you were refused a treat but rather you’re waching the bigger part of humanity suffer and realising you’re near powerless to do anything about it. Two things can be true. The world can be a bad place sometimes but it can also be good. If you can’t forgive it for its failings you’ll struggle to see the good side.
I'm right there with you. I'm utterly confused.
What is there to forgive? Is thore some inherent shittyness in men that needs overlooking on the part of women, or suppressing on the part of men?
Or is this just talking about how gender equality as improved with each generation, so as the same dudes age, the younger women in their lives are asking them to be more and more fair?
THERE IT IS
RIGHT OVER HERE OFFICER!
You see, it’s simple: men bad
It's worse than that. It's a sexist assertion that all men model the worst of our gender while all women model the best of theirs, which aggrivatingly dismisses feminist progressive men and excusing sexist regressive women.
DomeWife is not the one teaching DomeBaby about bodily autonomy or feminism, though she does have plenty of examples of women being sexist to our manly kith and kin.
Incel alert
Not just that, they are worse than women in every way. (I want equality btw).
I hate that I have to raise a son in an environment that is becoming so hateful towards men just for existing. I saw a picture of a woman at a protest against a child molester and she had a sign that says "not all men but it's ALWAYS a man" As someone who was molested by a woman when I was a kid, that shit is offensive and aggressive.
The down votes say it all. This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
Exactly. You have one side that doesn't give a shit about men's issues and demonizes them for it and the other side that also doesn't give a shit about men's issues but gives the occasional lip service or pretends to listen on occasion.
Neither is a good choice, but one is not openly hostile, and that makes it easy to fall that way.
I went to college in the 80’s. I had a history teacher explain to me how the Civil War and Jim Crow were not about gaining economic advantage from subjugation of free labor, but rather white men keeping white women in their place by demonizing black men.
I needed an A, and I got one. I told her what she wanted to hear. Not proud of that, but not ashamed either.
That crap was allowed to fester because it was only a few crazy people. Then it grew enough to spawn the likes of Trump.
I recommend this excellent book, “Jesus and John Wayne” by Kristin Du Mez who brings receipts for the argument that disaffected people were looking for a Trump to show up. (She is an evangelical who is not a fan of autocracy)
All this to say, you are correct.
Yeah, modern narratives basically teach men to hate themselves. I drank the Kool aid until my early 20s until I dated a narcissists and came to the realization that abusive pieces of shit come in all genders. And then when I need to turn to look for a role model there is nothing out there except right wing douche bags. Then we worry why young men gravitate towards the alt right.
Your point is all over the place. Men aren't being targeted with criticism simply for existing. That's a disingenuous framing of the issue. Are we supposed to feel sympathetic to your plight because you saw a picture online of something you disagreed with?
Some men deserve criticism for being chronically emotionally, psychologically, and socially underdeveloped. Incels are people that exist as well. It's 2024. If it's truly "not all men" then you don't need to take everything online at face value if you aren't one of the toxic men that this post is addressing.
See it's funny how it's always men who take criticism for being immature and never ever women. My ex was ridiculously stunted. She was a capricious, gas lighting brat. The ratio of immature men to women out there is pretty even, yet it's a running joke that men are the immature ones. My ex couldn't even cook herself lunch, hold a job, and expected me to just hand her money like I'm her dad. Plenty of women out there like that too, just as many as there are man boys out there who think their wives are their mom. But it's only ever a thing to go after the men on this issue
I once read a comment that said something like, "if your post would be considered racist if you wrote 'black men' instead of just 'men', then it's very likely misandrist."
Good words to live by if you aren't an asshole.
Damn, I can't tell if this is honest or some really deep cutting sarcasm/satire.
Edit: the autism got me again
You could not have proven their point more strongly if you tried.
Fact is, even if it was "always a man", the fact of the matter is that the vast, vast majority of men don't do it, making the assumptions about men not only immoral, but inaccurate.
White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of "around blacks never relax", nothing more, don't pretend otherwise.
think about how it must have felt for all those mothers who had to raise a daughter in an environment that has always been so hateful towards women...
These people never met my mother
Fellow bro, same here.
I hope you're doing fine.
Look at this point I know more women with unrealistic relationship expectations than men.
The world has changed a ton in the past twenty years. There's been a lot of discussion about toxicity in regards to male gender roles, and fundamentals changes to what's acceptable for a man to expect in a relationship.
There hasn't really been that discussion in women. While many women have perfectly fair expectations, there are a lot of women who will expect a man to completely reject gendered expectations of them, while having a ton of expectations of a man. It's almost a joke among my single male friends that the more vocal someone is about being a feminist, the more likely they'll expect you to pay for the date.
There's also a subculture of women behaving in ways that would be considered objectively toxic a decade ago, but have been normalized due to the whole oppressor/oppressed culture war narrative. I've seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around. I've seen women push their husband into an "ethically polyamaorous" relationship that always is extremely one sided. I've also seen a lot of women with an "I can do better" mentality that nobody in a relationship would have to put up with.
I'm not saying women are universally awful or anything. I'm just saying I think we need to have the same conversation around how women behave that we had in regards to how men behave.
Most of the dudes I know who aren't currently married just don't expect to have a relationship at all at this point in their lives (mostly middle age IT guys). The consensus is online dating isn't worth it to even bother with and it's hard AF to meet anyone in the real world so they focus on their hobbies and socialize with their bros instead. There's no animosity towards women and there are a few women that come out with us when we go to the bar but nobody is pursuing romance.
I mean, as a woman in my 30s, same. I'm not worried about it or anything, like if I meet someone that's great, but why stress over it? Dating is supposed to be fun. If you're stressing out, take a break. There's no rush. I say that knowing I only have so much time left to have kids, but again, stressing over it doesn't help
My friends have better luck, but it's a constant grind. Also, as far as I can tell, a guy's chance of getting into a relationship is basically a thin proxy for how attractive he is. Meanwhile for women the chances seem to be proxy for a combination of genuine kindness and realistic expectations. Any women with remotely realistic expectations is off the market in six weeks flat.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything.
You obviously aren't, but it speaks volumes all on its own that you felt there was a need to state that, only bolstering your other points about this one-sidedness.
Idk I basically stopped talking about this in mixed gender company in real life. My guy friends get it, my SO gets it, and a few close female friends get it. However most women I meet would treat a statement like this as an attack on them, even if they themselves aren't engaging in this type of behavior.
That literally what being a liberal male is like.
I'm too out of touch with toxic people (thankfully I don't know many), I'm unable to understand their reasoning
to the point that when you mentioned the "I can do better" mentality, my first thought was "I can do better to improve myself", but instead it's just shit about high or low value people
it's sad that someone genuinely believes the world revolves around them
I've seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around.
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
Edit, y'all aren't realizing that no cheating is a 100% thing and this person is blaming one of the 2 victims regardless, you all just want to blame one person with no self-reflection.
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
What a colossally callous and heartless thing to say.
Being cheated on is a horrendous betrayal. "Bitter" is the least on the list of absolutely justified emotions to feel in response to that.
No my SO is a wonderful woman who is a feminist in the sense that she does not enjoy any form of gender roles. That was extremely common when we first started dating. We are both pretty happy in our relationship.
My frustration comes from watching a lot of my guy friends struggle. Just because I'm not the one being cucked doesn't mean I appreciate seeing it in my social circles or appreciate seeing that behavior being defended.
Again, there's a lot of dialogue about how women need to stick up for other women. The idea that men have to be in it for themselves is ridiculous.
That being said, I would have every right to be bitter if my SO pressured me into an open relationship, and my friend group watched because a small amount of women were very supportive of the idea and nobody wanted to confront them. That's an extremely fucked up position to put anyone in.
Flip the roles here
“Someone got cheated on and is bitter about it”
Makes it more clear how much of a prick you’re being
Husband's bad
Men stupid
Oh boy! Gender discussion?! My favorite!
"Boy" ??!? 😤
favorite??
As if some things are better than other things?????
Joke's on you, my mother was completely unforgiving.
My mom beat my ass on the regular for any and every reason. Fuck this post.
There is a fine line between valid criticism of gender roles & sexism.
An example of the former would be, "Men are dangerous for women". Of course not all men are dangerous, but it describes the experience of many women & how they have to navigate the world, to not be assaulted.
This one describes the dynamic of a relationship between individuals & assigns a thought pattern to one of those individuals, based on their gender.
Maybe I missed some nuances here & I would be glad to be enlightened, but this looks like plain sexism.
There's a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women. It's not just housework but all kinds of things are taken much more seriously when a woman does something "wrong" than when a man does. It takes a lot of serious introspection and effort to break out of that programming so it's not a surprise that the majority of men don't, or only do so partially. The default state is that this stuff is sort of "invisible" because it seems so normal to how things are. So no, this is a factual description of a "standard" behaviour for men that only some are able to avoid.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles then this is a natural consequence of that for anyone who hasn't deeply and actively questioned them. Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
There's a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men too. But if you seriously think this is the average expectation of men towards women, then you should go outside and touch some grass. Just because toxic gender stereotypes exist, does not mean you have to acknowledge every bullshit sexist stereotype as the truth.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles
The problem is that all too often those harmful gender roles are only called out as being harmful to women, not to men, but they are. The solution to the gender roles issue is not digging trenches between genders.
Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
Except...entrenched gender roles are normal. This is expected human behaviour for 90% of the world. Equality, be it gender, age, ethnic or religious, is...just not how things work. It may be distasteful for you personally, but the rest of humanity doesn't give a toss - Western civilisation is a thin smear of civility which only popped up in the past couple of hundred years, and what's worked quite well for millennia is what's still working pretty effectively for several billion people.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality, and that there is a regression or progression over time, merely opinions shaped by culture, background and opportunities. The events of the past 10 years have convinced me that the "good" parts of liberalism are unsustainable because people at their core are just...selfish. The only way to convince them to change something is if it is in their self interest. Regrettably, equality rarely aligns with self interest because it requires relinquishing something. Equality and equity of opportunity only exist when the opportunity exist. Otherwise it's back to the dumb old shit we used to do.
Edited to add:
I didn't phrase it well above,
The ground state for humanity is inequality. Whether we wish it or not.
The pursuit of equality and equity means these things need to be prioritised above other things.
It is hard to convince people to prioritise something they are not invested in, especially if they don't benefit from it or value it.
It's not at all an uncommon story. Go to any women's support group or site, and it'll be a very consistent trend. A lot of people still have the old gender roles stuck in their heads, but they fail to acknowledge that some things have changed.
The big one is that women can now be financially independent. We're only 2 generations away from women being able to open a bank in their name in the US. Before that, women didn't have the financial freedom to live alone or divorce abusive/neglectful spouses.
The other one kind of ties into the first one, freedom of choice. It's not as big an expectation for women to marry, and people are finding that a lot of women would prefer to be alone and single than married. Where do you think all these memes of childless cat ladies come from? It didn't start with JD Vance. He just amplified it.
My wife is far more forgiving and loving than my mother ever was.
Bro I think I've heard my mom tell me she loves me like, 5 times in my entire life. My dad would tell me more regularly, after the divorce.
My wife tells me every day.
I feel you. There’s also a difference between saying I love you and actually feeling loved.
Comment section here showing the user demographics of Lemmy lol
In what way? it looks 50/50 to me.
these 2 statements are not mutually exclusive
What's the feminized version of a circlejerk? Circlerub? Circlejill? Circlefling?
I think jerk is a gender neutral term.
Oh now you're gonna get lactical with it eh?
Circleflick? Circletoss?
Conflickulation
Gossiping.
My daughter is 2, her forgiveness is not my concern.
with that mentality, it will be.
I can only care about what i care about. She can be mad or sad about my actions but ultimately helping her become independant and moral is more important than selfish desire to be her friend. I do want her acceptance and grace, but my hope is those will be side effects of being a reliable father.
Worrying about approval is something weak people do, and weak people make poor parents.
As a father, with a partner and a mother, this makes no sense to me.
Maybe it's because we are all happy?
Congratulations on landing yourself in a good place. I won’t even try to tell you that you may simply not notice them putting up with shit.
That’s not everyone’s experience, and you’re not being helpful or compassionate with that comment. The opposite, even. You aren’t the victim here, bro, sit down.
It's nice to not need forgiving. #freedom
Sounds like the moms are to blame. Moms need to be less forgiving of their sons, to better prepare them for their future relationships.
Moms need to allow men to see their children, so children don't grow up with only the softer half of the parenting they could receive.
My mom is far too forgiving and it absolutely messed me up a little. But I’m also not a fucking dumbass on autopilot so I acknowledged shortcomings and fixed them. Their fathers also allowed that behaviour to happen, and it’s not even unlikely that they stopped the mothers “being so hard on them” if they stepped in in the way you’re asking for. The mothers had to put up with shit and have borderline to actuall PTSD and are too protecting themselves to go after the very behaviour they’re trying to avoid needing to deal with.
No, the moms are not to blame.
Y'all are reading this as feminist? It's literally an observation by some chicks on twitter, not some kind of feminist rhetoric.
Feminism is currently more preoccupied with dismantling the gender binary entirely, not reinforcing stereotypes like in this twitter post.
I've never had a wife, nor a daughter, so I can't really say much about how forgiving they are. If this doesn't match your lived experience, stop giving a fuck and move on.
Neither the image posted nor "dismantling the gender binary" are feminist. And while the latter seems a worthwhile cause that deserved its own name and slogans, the former is a piece of art which echos hateful stereotypes about men and thus causes some.very real revulsion from viewers outraged by those stereotypes.
I see folks here are bent on proving the point.
I wonder how many people here were ready to let trump win because they didn't want to vote for 'Another white male'
fellow men. posting hot takes when nobody really asked is kind cringe. You're mad about what really?
Saying ‘fellow men’ is the real cringe.
Besides, they’re posting on a public form, that sorta invites discussion, no?
Is that an exclusively male thing?
The one sided nature of these arguments
Being attacked by her new boyfriend while he tries to break into my apartment to take my 4 ear old, high on heavy drugs and psychotic
There is some serious eww in these comments. Why are men so absolutely abhorrent at taking criticism? Stop being whining little boys. This whole comment section is written proof of the post itself. Too many of you sound like children on the floor having a tantrum.
So when do we get to make blanket criticism of women and still be part of the left?
Why are men so absolutely abhorrent at taking criticism?
Uh, lol...meanwhile, women are so hostile to criticism that massively-successful TV shows are made out of that premise (TV shows whose primary audience are women, by the way, ironically enough).
There is some serious eww in these comments. Why are women so absolutely abhorrent at taking criticism? Stop being whining little girls. This whole comment section is written proof of the post itself. Too many of you sound like children on the floor having a tantrum.
would this comment be socially acceptable? if changing genders suddenly makes it worse it's because we don't have equality
It's called Lewis' law: "Comments on any article about feminism justify the existence of feminism"
Seriously. Reading through this thread has been insanely idiotic. Guess the criticism in the meme hit hard on some butthurt little boys anyway ¯_(ツ)_/¯
