Serious question.
I have never bombed any children. Am I antisemitic?
Unserious answer:
If you haven't murdered and maimed entire families you are literally Hitler.
Antisemitism to Palestinian support is like misandry to feminism. Yeah, some people might be guilty of it (and those who are, misunderstand the latter ideologies), but it's way overrepresented in opposing media, who is often guilty of such issues itself.
Also "Stop Killing Children" or "Demand a Ceasefire Now" aren't "pro-Palestinian" messages, they're anti-killing messages.
Just because the children being killed happen to be Palestinian doesn't make that a pro-Palestinian message. It can be a general message that is applicable to whoever's children happen to be getting killed right now.
If someone says "stop the attacks on civilians now", how do you even know if they're talking about Gaza, Ukraine or both?
Aren't Palestinians a semitic people?
Yes but anti-semitism has been co-opted to apply only to Jews (erasure of millions of other semitic people, that is, people who speak a semitic language other than Hebrew) just like the Holocaust has come to mean only the Jewish victims of Nazi genocide, which is erasure of the 5 million other victims in the various groups that were killed by Nazis.
That’s an invalid (strikethrough: dictionary) etymology argument, and you know it. To clarify, when I said “antisemitism” I meant “a discriminatory attitude towards Jews” or something along those lines.
Edit: this is an etymology argument, not a dictionary one; most dictionaries probably agree with me. I don't know how or why the word
antisemitismcame to be used to refer to Jews specifically, but surely it's been this way for most of its history.
Either way, the most authoritative meaning of a word is that which was intended by the one who uttered it.
Zionism is antisemitic
Calling opposition to genocide antisemitic is one of the most anti-semitic things one could do - it paints genocide as inherent to Judaism - a ludicrous position that is about the best reason one could find to justify exterminating the Jews.
if it's not against jews, it's just sparkling crimes against humanity
Did it come from the genocide region?
I think is way more antisemitic to try to relate the jewish people with that genocide
I don't think anyone relates the Jewish people to that genocide, they relate the state of Israel to that genocide, because it does.
My understanding is that the person who originally called criticism of the Israel gov 'antisemitism' is the one equating Jewish people with the state of Israel
That's the point they are making actually, that Jewish people that call for antisemitism in those cases like the Australian Jewish organization and tons of Israel supporters, by saying that being against genocide is antisemitic, they are saying that genocide is semitic, which is a very dangerous statement.
In my opinion, those that make such ludicrous statement are the antisemitic ones, for calling the Jewish religious group genocidal.
Clearly the Australian Jewish Association is relating Jewish people to genocide, otherwise they would not have called that statement by a shopkeeper in New Zeeland anti-semitic but would instead have said it to be anti-Israel.
They're directly saying that being against this Genocide is being against Jews, which is most definitelly "relating Jewish people to that Genocide"
Ah yes, murder, famously opposed by anti-semites
It's anti-semitic to ask you to stop killing children who lived their whole lives unable to leave their borders and were not even born when Hamas was "elected" in their reigon?
Is it anti-semitism to advocate to stop a "war" which you waged against a besieged province inside your country which you are controlling their water, electricity, food, fuel, and all natural resources, and starving amd killing and crippling for all life children and women who are over %70 of the victims?
Is this bait? It sure feels like bait.
Judaism is when you kill children, sweetie.
I mean, that's pretty much what the Australian Jewish Association is implying here, isn't it?
Now, I realize Israel and it's people have had a long and storied history of being persecuted by others, however, there's a limit to how far you can stretch that sort of "woe is us" pity when the modern history of the country most representative of modern Judaism -- at least, that's how I kind of thought of it, a sort of "Jewish Vatican/Mecca", correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not Jewish -- will be recorded as not only actively engaged in committing such terrible acts (no matter the enemy), but is proud of it. I could see them trying to deny or "deny" it, you know, pay these IDF atrocities lip-service and give commanders a light finger-wag, that sort of thing. It's the Israeli government after all, anyone who thinks they don't have a massive intelligence apparatus shaping opinions at home and abroad is a fool -- but for so many to be as proud of it as they are, god. I should be over this by now, but it's just... upsetting. Make no mistake, the acts they commit today will be written about in the history textbooks, and they will be used to justify further future antisemitism -- anyone who doesn't fear another Adolf Hitler hasn't been paying attention to the fucking news. This cycle of hate shouldn't continue, and yet I see no end in sight.
Israel is not representative of modern Judiasm. It's representative of modern settler colonialism. There are a lot of Jews who have opposed the existence of Israel since the idea of Zionism came up. Don't conflate Judiasm with colonialism in it's name.
The problem is that the Israeli government itself deliberately conflates itself/Zionism with Judiasm as a whole specifically so they can screech "antisemitism!!!!!!" at every single criticism they receive regardless of whether or not is valid.
This is not only bullshit, but also actively undermines progress against actual antisemitism elsewhere by poisoning the signal-to-noise ratio by perpetually being the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
For anyone non-Jewish looking for a scrap of perspective on the matter, remember after 9/11 when every response from every conservative about every overtly shady thing they did was to parrot, "Why do you hate America???????" It's pretty much the same idea.
That's antisemitic talk.
Israel is not representative of modern Judiasm
well, Saudi arabia/afganistan is not representative of modern islam, but here we are. Do you think Muslim majority, largely secular countries like being compared to theocratical shitholes? no.
if you're just joining us, the thread is about how assholes like to make it seem that criticism of israel is antisemitism, whch is what archonet is talking about.
Australian Jewish Association is a fucked up group of fucked up people. Opposing things they say is anti-idiocy.
Killing men, women and children of a "group" that wronged them is a sacred part of the Jewish texts, so it's anti-Semitic to tell them to stop killing children.
This argument is dangerous and in fact generalizes in an anti-Semitic way. The horrible actions of the state of Israel are not in any way representative of Judaism. How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist? Your reference to the Throa does nothing more than that: equate a religious group with the actions of a state. Please think before you post on social media.
How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist?
I think that would be really entertaining.
I think the world would be a lot better if everyone recognized that these religious books written hundreds or thousands of years ago have some batshit insane things written by some batshit insane people in them and no part of them should be used to dictate people's lives.
How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist?
Go ahead, do that. Quote Bible passages, Quran passages, Buddhist, other religious texts and events anywhere to paint me as whatever you think my areligious-ass is.
You will see that most have some passage like my example, that radical right-wing colonial fascists use to justify acts like genocide.
Religion can be a force of good and you're correct that the actions of Israel are not representative of Judaism as a whole. In fact, whether as a commandment from a holy figure, rules within a religious society to earn just reward, spiritual obligation or of role models portrayed in such texts, the principles of caring for others as you would yourself, acting compassionately to the weak, poor and underprivileged are core tenets of religions everywhere.
However, remember that the post is of a Semitic organization displaying opposition to genocide as an example of anti-Semitism, and I merely provide evidence that there are texts to back up that extremely harmful view.
Implying that Jewish people at large need to be told not to murder children because of the actions of Israel is actually anti-Semitic. Citing parts of the Torah to slander Jews when the topic is about Israel is anti-Semitic.
There are Jewish activists who oppose Israel (and Israel abuses them for their activism when they live there, or outright bans them from ever visiting Israel if they live elsewhere). And there are Jewish Palestinians too.
The Australian Jewish Association posting a picture like the one in the post kind of implicates Jews at large if such actions aren't widely condemned and taken back, even if it seems anti-Semitic to do so.
That said there are many Jews that advocate for peace and to end this violence.
Just one example of many: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Unfortunately it's overshadowed by a massive suppression campaign all over the world to hide voices of protest and justify the occupation.
I see what your saying but I'm not sure I agree.
If you have a Jewish state by their own admission and put a lot of meaning into their text. Israel.
That state says something is Anti-Semetic.
Then someone references their own text to show how they believe something to be their religious right and telling someone to stop that is anti-semitic.
I get that this point is satirical to a degree because I'm not sure even using religion many people would say they have a right to kill children. But I think the comment is more about showing how stupid arguments are when they are based on religion rather than saying all Jews are child killers.
It would be like some Catholics killed some gay guys who were kissing and the Catholics said the gay guys where being racist and anti-Catholic.
If someone say well the bible says you should kill gays.
The hidden argument is that basing an argument on a historical text is stupid gives no justification for committing a crime. It doesn't say all Catholics are gay killers, because rationally no one would believe that person is saying that.
This should be pointed more often, if ideology of a group is including culling other groups then you shouldn't be surprised they actually start doing it someday, this actually also points at many other groups out there and people tend to forget about it till it's too late
Thanks. I am willing to risk religious people of all stripes to downvote me for saying it, not that points matter.
Have to condemn Riemer & Lieberman here…
How’d you interpret the last two paragraphs?
Even if most people would not invoke the commandment to destroy Amalek today, there are certainly those, like Rabbi Riemer, who have ventured to do so. And there has been no dearth of similar, violent invocations in reference to the Palestinians, as well. For example, Benzi Lieberman, the chairman of the Council of Settlements said in no uncertain terms: “The Palestinians are Amalek! We will destroy them. We won’t kill them all. But we will destroy their ability to think as a nation. We will destroy Palestinian nationalism.”
The general consensus among today’s Jewish community seems to be that our energies can and must be used to stop the perpetuation of genocidal activity occurring throughout the world, to become agents for peace, and to dismiss any contemporary comparisons to the biblical paradigm. But clearly there are difficult texts and teaching that remain in our tradition that must be remembered and reckoned with.
Right, so if this is the consensus (although there is reason to believe it is), then this occupation of Gaza should have been condemned and stopped months ago by Jewish organizations everywhere, hand in hand with peace groups, humanitarian organizations like MSF, Palestinian groups. The level of suppression of media and protest happening from Israeli and Jewish organizations show a level of complicity in the elected right-wing level governments actions, and only a handful of brave Jewish groups and rabbis have publicly spoken out against it.
It's part of the Bible, too, so it's also anti-Christian!
Absolutely correct.
The vast majority of Jews do not accept what ancient iron age text happen to say as if they were modern moral texts and recognize their ancient flaws. Because most Jews aren't Orthodox, who are the only ones who believe all that shit.
The rabbi at the temple when I was growing up was a lesbian. The rabbi at the temple there now (coincidentally) is a gay man. Considering homosexuality is condemned in the torah and they are still rabbis, that should tell you something.
This comment is actually pretty bigoted. I've heard literal Nazis talk the exact same way about Muslims and their religious texts.
Just because something was written in a religious book a thousand years ago doesn't mean it is automatically endorsed by the entire population.
Hey, I agree with you my comment was a bit bigoted. This comment was half-written in the context of being a Lemmy Shitpost, but it has spawned a chain of genuine discussion.
The important thing is to separate the hate for what Israel is doing from Jewish people in general. (Same with Palestinians, Hamas and Islam)
Anti-Semites and Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, the Israeli government, the Australian Jewish Association all try to fuse the two together to justify violence.
hey everyone! did you know Jewish people kill children!
fascist
People are missing the satire and humour in this post obviously.
It's a joke people. He's pointing out stupidity.
Is AJA a credible group? Or just some person trying to sound official?
No worse than the ADL for sure.
There are Jewish Muslims that live in Palestine. Would it not be antisemitic of Israel to a attack an area that houses Jews of any sect and faith?
Do you mean Jewish arabs? or Semitic Muslims maybe. Technically Semitic is a language group which includes arabic but like indo-european it can also refer to the people who originally used the dialect... bigotry fails at logic.
Judaism is a religion, not a race. Plenty of people of the race commonly associated with Judsism who aren't Jews. Like your average Palestinian.
Palestinians are semites. Judaism isn't a race, it's a religion.
Jewish Muslims lol?
So I can be a Christian, Jewish , Muslim and a Buddhist all at one time ?
Yikes. I'll stick to Atheism.
Cool, no one cares.
As a kid I attended a Jewish day school, and we had a year long class on European-Jewish history through the Holocaust.
The post screenshotted (allegedly from the AGA) reads almost like it came right out of that era as a piece of anti-semetic propoganda.
Seriously. Weather the post was actually from the AGA, or an anti-semetic propogandist, it is 100% blood libel, and should treated as such.
I'm guessing the claim is that saying "Israel is killing children" present a "false" narrative (presumably, false to them). Like you can imagine someone saying "Stop this man from killing puppies!" and it makes him look pretty bad even if he's not a puppy killer.
What's unfortunate is that instead of responding to "false" narratives by pointing out the falsehoods ("Actually all those bombed children's hospitals were faked!" /s), instead this person just attacks the character of the person saying it. It's basically name-calling or tone policing at best. I'm guessing because there's no good argument in support of Netanyahu's actions. Only zealots would support him.
They are killing children, it's not a false narrative, it's what's happening. Palestine has a very young population, those casualties contain a very large percentage of underage people. They don't have to bomb a children's hospital to kill children.
I suggest you read my post again if you think I said anything to the contrary. I'm trying to understand this person's fucked up logic.
Oy fucking vey!
Spicy af
I think they have real estate in the occupied Palestine? Every dead palestine child = one apartment more for them? Yes they think in 30 year circles.
Thankfully, here, hate comments by the creator are also deleted. Zat is honorable, so I address it as well. Everyone with property should think in 30-year cycles. So here as well. That's how colonialism works. You take the land for free. And that creates value for you. I became skeptical soon after the Gaza Strip was sealed off. None from the IDF went in. Instead, sealing off and while the bombs fell for weeks: parties, selfies. Who paid for the bombs? Wasn't the hostage situation urgent? Also, pay attention: starvation is much worse. Especially for the children. Lasting damage. If the Palestinians are now displaced. Who will bear the cost for them? Do some research yourself. Then it's like a slap in the face, what's going on here.
Don't you know antisemitism means just anything Jews disagree with
At least that is how they treat that word now
Weird, because I'm a Jew and I don't feel that way about people who disagree with me. Nor does any other Jew I know.
Not Jews, a jew. People are individuals
Get this political crap outa here.
No
Only on Lemmy
When you plaster this shit on Jewish-owned businesses ya that’s anti semitic.
Jews≠Israel so boycotting and blaming Jewish owned businesses because you’re angry at what Israel is doing is antisemitic. Jews are not a monolith. This is like targeting Chinese owned businesess with COVID conspiracies.
Y’all reactionaries are honestly just as dumb as MAGAts.
What makes you think it's plastered onto the business and not put up by the business-owners themselves?
...which is by far the most-logical conclusion?
Bro,
The signs are on the inside of the window.
He has written is some weird stream of consciousness stuff.
I think the message of this post is pretty clear: it refers to the simple fact that legitimate criticism of the actions of the state of Israel is quite often and often quite deliberately dismissed as anti-Semitism. That is ridiculous. There is nothing anti-Semitic about criticizing a state for its criminal actions. What is even more ridiculous is the attempt to even try and silence Jews who criticize the state of Israel with crude concepts such as Jewish self-hatred. This is not about religion, but about the rejection of crimes against humanity, for which not a religious community but a sovereign state is responsible.
Is that what's happening here though? I don't have any context for this and there's no obvious tell (that I could find) that the business is Jewish-owned and that it wasn't put up by the owner, just looks like a small business taking an anti-genocide stance to me.
If the context is what you're saying though, that's fucked. Jews deserve blame for the actions of the extremists running the Israeli state the way Christians deserve blame for the actions of MAGA - these fascist groups don't represent the religion or the people they're just wearing it as a hat.
EDIT: To the reader: I should have read farther, another reply chain provides context that
-
this is in fact a Jewish-owned business, and
-
this specific Jewish-owned business has expressed a pro-Palestine stance on its Facebook account (specifically, its pfp is a palestine flag overlaid with a raised fist encircled by the words "Free Palestine End The Occupation").
It seems very unlikely that this is a targeted act of hate, and PerogiBoi should be ashamed of themself for inventing a narrative out of whole cloth based on one factual detail and then proceeding to decry everyone else as "reactionary".
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Antisemitism = against jews, jews ≠ israel -> something against israel = antisemitism... whatever...
