Ain't nobody got time for that crap!
Ain't nobody got time for that crap!
Especially with the rise of "ghost postings" so quantity over quality is greater than ever these days
In biology, the top one is called K-strategy and the bottom one R-strategy.
Both are valid strategies.But generally, K is better suited for highly developed, intelligent, cooperative and social animals.
R is better suited for animals that live alone in a hostile environment full of predators.There's a message about the modern job market in here somewhere I guess.
This sorta applies to the way I typically do it (maybe). I spray-and-pray on 9+ out of 10, because most are mass-posted bullshit. I'm not redoing a cover letter for every bullshit posting.
But if it is clear an actual person is involved (e.g. there is a person's e-mail listed as a direct point-of-contact or it's on a small company's website among only a handful of positions) and/or it is for a job I think I'd really like, I spend more time tailoring everything.
Best of both worlds (potentially).
Yeah, that's the approach I use too. Eventually I'll have 2-3 versions of my resume/CV, and a file of typical paragraphs to put in a cover letter. Ideally I'll have some kind of connection to the company, like: "in a conversation with (Name) at (conference), I learned of your work in (whatever)" or "I am familiar with (product/process) from applying it to my work on (previous work)." Whenever I'm hiring, that sort of cover letter tells me that at least they've taken the time to learn about the company, so it's less likely a waste of time to interview them.
Lol as someone from biomedical sciences I thought you were speaking about applications in the broad field of biology/biological sciences. I was so excited to ask you about what companies would accept an "R strategy" application because fuck this, even for a technical assistant job I need a fucking tailored cover letter every single time because otherwise my application doesn't even land on anyone's desk.
In my experience bio-med jobs are more about who you know until you can show them what you know.
This interests me as I recently started reading Mutual Aid: A Factor in Evolution, by Piotr Kropotkin, and the beginning of the book is all about how "survival of the fittest" does not necessarily mean constant competition. But that species that evolve to cooperate (either intra- or inter-species) tend to do just as well, if not better. I love hearing that the biology actually backs that up.
Social darwinism:
❌️: Ayn Raid libertarism.
✔️: Kropotnik mutualism.
Evolution is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented processes in nature.
Here's some bullet points:- Humans haven't evolved "higher" or "more" than earthworms, or roaches, or wheat, or yeast. (All these organisms have evolved for the same amount of time, with a similar number of mutations, but in different environments.)
- Intelligence isn't the end goal, or indeed a goal at all, of evolution. (Evolution is a process which has no direction, and no goal.)
- Humans aren't the most successful organism on earth by literally any biological metric. (And "evolutionary success" is a meaningless metric that is only used by humans.)
- "Survival of the fittest" has nothing to do with strength. (It doesn't mean fitness as in fitness center, but fitness as in "can I fit in this ecological niche?")
- Pretty much every organism we've studied lives in a symbiotic relationship with others. (Humans, from a purely biological standpoint, live in a symbiotic relationship with their gut microbiome, wheat, rice, corn, ..., livestock, horses, cats, dogs, honey bees... A symbiosis from a purely biological standpoint means: both species have a better chance to reproduce and spread due to their relationship)
When you're an R-strategy being in a K-selection environment. 😔
LPT for all of you job seekers.
Oooh, my partner is working on his resume; I'm going to share this with him. Thanks!
It lets you share as a link and you can self host.
This sounds too good to be true. What's the catch?
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Why is this good? Not being negative, just want to understand.
Easy to customize and have multiples with similar information in different layouts, easily tailor the same experiences to focus on specific types of positions, share your resume as a link, self hosted option with docker, etc.
Its really quite nice. I host my own.
Edit: fixed a word
Nice.
I was really hoping they offered a self hosting option.
You're my hero
Stop putting cover letters on your resume. Recruiters spend 7 seconds or less on 1 resume. A cover page essentially is a skip button because we don’t see any pertinent information and move on.
Resumes should be 1 page with a layout that attracts attention but isn’t distracting. Sentences should be structured like bullet points, short, sweet, and to the point.
I mean you say that, but I got my last amazing job because I mentioned pertinent info in my cover letter that resonated with the recruiter. I wouldn't have got it if I just sent my resume.
I know it's just anecdotal but hey
There are definitely different workflows for different recruiters, especially across industries.
Most of the places I applied to in my most recent job hunt had separate places to upload a cover letter and resume. If they didn't ask for a cover letter, I didn't write one, but I do see an argument to append one to your resume anyway.
Seriously, the job I have now requried a masters degree. My cover letter and my 10+ years of specfic experience got them to talk to me even though I only have an associates degree.
Now I am the go-to for search commitees in my department, and the only thing worse then no cover letter is when folks use a form one and forget to change ot or fill in the blanks.
I feel like this is very situation dependent.
That may be the case in your company or industry, but not everywhere.
In my experience there's been a big difference between a general resume I'm uploading to a place like a LinkedIn or Indeed (and letting the recruiters come to me), using that uploaded resume to apply to job postings on that site, and sending resume/application to specific companies on their site.
For the first one, hell no, no cover letter. How would that even work? No cover letter is better than a generic one.
For applying for specific postings on these sites? For me it depends on just how good the opportunity is. If I feel like there's some sort of special connection that makes me tailor made for the role, the money is great, it's doing really interesting work, or a company I really want to work for? Absolutely I'll include a cover letter. I'm just looking to get out of a shit job, or the role doesn't really move the needle, but I think it might be a good fit? Nah, just hit that quick apply button and move on.
But if I'm reaching out to a company directly?
Cover letter every time (unless they specifically say not to). If they don't want it, they won't read it, but I've never felt like it hurt my chances, and in a few interviews, they've specifically mentioned something about it.
I wouldn’t say situation dependent but this is more for entry level positions. If you are in a specialized career recruiters take way more time on applications.
This is more generalized resume advice. With that said specialized positions are few and far between for many people and a specially tailored resume is more likely to lose you job opportunities for most positions.
Again you’re right it does really depend but you have to use your best judgment on what kind of job you’re applying for.
I wouldn’t say situation dependent but this is more for entry level positions. If you are in a specialized career recruiters take way more time on applications.
This is more generalized resume advice. With that said specialized positions are few and far between for many people and a specially tailored resume is more likely to lose you job opportunities for most positions.
Again you’re right it does really depend but you have to use your best judgment on what kind of job you’re applying for.
This is 100% true. But you should also include a cover letter, just as a second document. I mean obviously not if you're applying for McDonald's but you get the idea
Yo Burger Boss,
I really need a job like ASAP because my mom says I gotta move out of her basement and stop playing video games all day LOL. I've eaten at McDonald's like a million times (mostly at 3 AM) so I basically already know everything about working there - I mean, how hard can flipping burgers be??? My friend Dave said you guys get free food which is literally the main reason I'm applying, plus I saw on TikTok that sometimes employees mess up orders on purpose and get to keep the food (so cool). I'm pretty bad at waking up early and I definitely can't work weekends because that's when my Fortnite team practices, but I promise I'll try to show up most of the time when I'm scheduled.
Peace out,
ZuthanP.S. Can you make sure to put me on drive-thru so I can practice my funny voices?
I felt the same way until a friend of mine helped me redo my cover letter before COVID. Gotten 2 jobs since then and have tripped my salary in a handful of years. The latest gig (that was a salary doubling jump) was through a recruiter who said the cover letter helped me get the interview.
Mine is 2 pages, and I think everyone I've hired has been 2 pages. Maybe it's kinda dependent on the field you're in? Idk, i can't imagine cramming all my proficiencies, jobs, and responsibilities on one page.
It depends on what position you are hiring for. If someone doesn't have two pages worth of experience then it better not be 2 pages.
Also the first page needs to have the most relevant so that you aren't scrolling. Honestly most people are fine with one page. Unless you have tons of qualifications and experience it should fit on one page.
Can we do bullet bullet points for extra creativity?
It's always dependent upon the person looking. The question isn't "will a cover letter get me the job" it's "do I care to work for a place where the cover letter is what gets me the job". For me, no.
A cover page is not the same thing as a cover letter
Never have done a cover letter. Just seems like pandering pretentious tripe
Same. They already have my resume and application for the job, I'm not writing a whole page groveling and begging them to hire me.
I always thought of a cover letter for clarifying something on your resume. Ex: you’re changing careers or industries and out want to clarify why your experience is relevant. So, I don’t do them for every application but in certain situations.
When I get them from new grads I delete them. Experienced people or weird resumes I might read if borderline.
Sometimes it is interesting reading the bad ones. They can't spell or use proper grammar apparently
This may be Australia specific, but do job postings not spell out what they want in other countries?
Like, job postings in Australia (these days) are: this is the job, here are the key selection criteria, please provide us a resume and cover letter (or just a resume, or cover letter optional, etc). Even down to maximum number of pages sometimes.
They just tell you, and part of the way they weed people out is if they fail to follow what's written (simple way to weed out anyone paying no attention).
Do other countries just have to GUESS what the recruitment managers want at each company?
Tried both, tried a normal resume and a resume with an ATS-focused layout, tried AI-based tools meant to help you improve your resume, and a few other things, and after more than forty applications in six months, what finally got me an interview and then very quickly an offer was an internal referral from a friend/ex-coworker. For context, I am a software engineer.
Fun fact: the average response time after submitting an application was 48 days.
and after more than forty applications in six months
That's not "spray and pray"
I just started a job search yesterday and I'm already at about 40 applications. My job search before this one I went from search start to offer in ~2 weeks w/ ~200 applications in, all manual. Though my industry is IT, so I do have a bit of flexibility as far as roles go, but still 6 applications/month is a bit on the low side IMO
Yeah usually I send like 40 or applications each week. I imagine if you are in a specific field then it's a lot harder to do the spray and pray method tho
It really depends what job it is.
Yeah, as I’m going to move across my country I’m basically calling on everyone I know to give me references there. I figure it’s time that my extroversion help me instead of hurting me like usual
Same here. I changed my LinkedIn status and a former coworker pinged me and said he set up a Discord for other job seekers. I joined and posted my skills and desired role and he forwarded my resume to his employer because they were in the early stages of finding someone for that role.
After a week of interviews I had a new job. Of the 60 or so applications I sent to similar roles during that week only about half replied, and all of those were rejections.
I still don't know what a cover letter even is. never used one and don't plan on starting. no one's reading that crap anyway
It's the thing that gets fed into an LLM to opaquely grade you before your resume gets looked at by a human
That's why you use an LLM to generate it
The resume shows experience and the cover letter shows personality. If the job has any kind of soft skills a cover letter is a bonus, if the job is super technical it's probably not necessary. It also depends on the workplace.
If it is a job you actually want though I would recommend writing something. I'm on a smaller team and read all the resumes of applicants. I actually read them because I'm going to be the one contacting, interviewing, and working with them. I absolutely read the cover letters and give a small bonus to people who include them.
I interpreted it as the resume shows your experience while the cover letter shows you know how to write coherently (plus gives you an opportunity to clarify anything on your resume)
Is the bottom one not what we've all been doing for the past 10 years? If you haven't worked more than 5 or so places it should also look like that right?
Also fuck cover letters. Never making one, I don't care who they send
Seems nobody sent the memo to all those career advisers, coaches, job seeking assistance places etc. because I still see it as "recommended practice" LMAO
I do it like that, but it has backfired before. I posted a resume that mentions I can code to a teaching position (Highschool maths). Not relevant to the job at all. Got the job. Some random admin person remembered I can write code and that meant that every other teacher should address their IT questions to me. No extra pay and I had to explain Microsoft software a lot of the time, which I don't even use.
Just do what I do and have an AI generate the cover letter. Saves me a ton of time, and gives me a personalized letter for every job while only writing two sentences.
(But then again Lemmy absolutely hates AI with a blind passion—just as much as you hate cars—so I don't know why I'm actually suggesting this. It works, though.)
As someone who hires a lot of MBA types
I could give a shit about your cover letter
I could give a shit about your nice follow up email after the interview
I realize I'm a sample size of one, but I also don't do cover letters or follow up notes for mydelf and I guess I am doing well enough that I have a bunch of energetic MBA types working for me.
Cover latter? Is it the 50ties? If a company wants a cover letter, I ain't applying. You got my CV. Need more info? Call me, the number is on the CV.
This is what AI is for. If they're going to use it for screening applications, I'm going to use it to write my cover letter.
Their robots can talk to my robots.
Hard agree.
I guess this depends where you live and what professions your are applying for. In my region and field, a cover letter goes with saying. It always has been like that, ever since I was looking for summer jobs, and continues to be the standard.
I love being part of the solution and not the problem, so fuck cover letters. If no applicants submit a cover letter, period, then we collectively just improved life for ourselves. Recruiters be ghostin anyway.
Cover letter requirement makes no sense in this day and age. We have access to thousands of job openings on the palm of our hands, why the fuck would I pause on one random job just to lie about why I want to work at that specific company.
Spray and pray baby. Getting the recruiter or HR department to like you only gets you in the door. You can't shortcut actual connections with your actual coworkers.
Right. When I was interviewing people, I honestly couldn't care less about the CV. I'm an engineer, words are hard. I want a list of your skills, your software proficiencies, and a run-down of your previous jobs along with your responsibilities. When you get here, I'm going to care about finding out how much you know about designing and cad. Then we'll take a tour of the shop to see if the machinery we build is in your comfort zone. We'll have some small talk to get a feel for if you'd fit in with the group, and off you'll go. All said and done, it should be under 45 minutes.
Maybe it's the shit market that I'm applying to, but when I apply for a retail job, they want a fully filled out application (that auto fill always Borks, so I have to type everything in manually) as well as a cover sheet and some places want you to take a personality quiz that you have to pass for hr to even see your application. I couldn't imagine applying to 4 jobs a day, let alone 40.
I imagine we are talking about corporate postings where you just paste a link to LinkedIn and that does most of the work?
Jesus that sounds so demeaning. I haven't had to apply for a job in about 15 years now. All networking, and I was poached and offered my current job. Union now, so I'm set. I don't remember having to jump through so many hoops when I was younger and applying for a job, but recently I passed by a Wendy's and there must have been 50 people lined up outside with resumes because there was a job posting. That many people for one burger job, that's hard times.
if indeed doesn't allow me to quick apply, it's gotta be a dream job to even want to go to their site and do even more work.
Lol holy shit I forgot about those "personality tests." They are (well, were at least, I imagine its still like this) basically just a way to filter out people too stupid to not know what answers they want to hear. Questions like, "You see a coworker stealing money from the register, do you: a) pretend you didn't see anything, b) join them and start a gang, or c) tell the manager on duty"
Shit is so laughably stupid.
Yeah, the trick is to pretend you are A mixture of Ned Flanders and a ditzy cheerleader when you answer.
The most recent one I took almost felt like a placement test trying to see if you had management material, which could be problematic for someone applying to be an entry level team member, but giving management answers.
Maybe I'm over thinking why I got passed on by a grocery store after two in person group interviews.
Yeah, about that cover sheet. Did you not get the memo? We're putting new cover sheets on all the applications now, mmmkay? If you could just do that from now, that'd be great.
I've worked for several big corps have never seen anything like that.
lucky you, it's becoming more common.
There is at least a WorkDay integration, likely others: https://business.linkedin.com/talent-solutions/linkedin-hiring-integrations/workday
And then when you get past all that, they suddenly want a group interview.... like, sit in a room with many other candidates and have an interview.
'Ill perform better in my position because I'm two inches taller and can reach the back of the top shelf without wasting company time sourcing a ladder!'
Yeah all of the lower end jobs are like this unfortunately, anything that gets pasted more than 3 times a year on indeed or any job site. Middle/management side it's like that but with 3-6 interviews instead and no guarantee of a job. Trade jobs seem to be the outlier, but harder to actually find who all is looking and for them to "legitimately" (insurance/taxes) employ you. High end is 80% networking so a lot of the ground work is already done (but still a total time/energy sink that I can't be bothered for).
Had one guy apply for a job in my field saying "My experiences in different field> will help me as <job title>."
There is very little overlap in hard skills (soft ones obviously do help). Not like that matters a whole lot - their actual list of past jobs and skills would have landed them an interview at least, because we already expect it to be a learn-as-you-go type of deal. Bro would have been better off leaving it out and I would have just assumed they're trying to strike out in a different direction.
(I told HR to invite them for an interview anyway, because fuck cover letters - I'm not gonna hold anyone to a higher standard there than I'd like to be held to)
I stan bottom sentiment.
That's how plants do it. For a billion years. Must be the best strategy.
Also semen
Unless something really good comes up yeah. Also most of the time I just put my generic CV up and get calls from recruiters. So the actual people hiring don't even see my CV
Bcc everyone
As someone from outside the US, I have no clue wtf is a cover letter, this isn't a thing in Brazil, you just send your resume.
I'm Australian and was always told the cover letter was unnecessary, especially if your CV has a bio.
The cover letter was for additional information not covered by the resume - name dropping the manager at the company you know who inspired you to apply, explaining why it appears your changing industries, justifying "overqualifications", mentioning a personal hobby that's relevant to the industry and isn't technical work experience.
Basically the things you plan to bring up in the interview to wow them, you can introduce them while introducing yourself in a cover letter.
But if your resume lines up with the position description, you don't need a cover letter.
Basically I was told a cover letter is necessary when you're a burnt out nurse or teacher applying to be a cashier at kmart to avoid having your resume immediately thrown out.
That said. I've literally never written one, even as a serial industry hopper. If there's no email address to send my resume too, then the system is too auto for a cover letter and they don't want to read it anyway, if there is an email address, just include a few lines of a short cover letter in the body text of the email before attaching your resume.
The US does not use what you call a CV. A resume is something else. For one thing, there is typically no “profile”.
A resume may not even show a complete work history. It is one ( maybe two ) pages and heavily tailored to what makes sense for the particular job. That is what this post is about.
It isn't a thing in the US anymore either.
It's totally a thing here too. I've been asked for one when I apply for a job.
So how is that working out for you? Genuinely curious.
For my industry, IT, pretty well. A nice upward career trajectory and an average of about a month from search start to offer over the past couple of jobs
It worked fine for me, I've landed three jobs that way. That was a while ago though, the last time was in 2017. My last two jobs I took because I had some connections call out of the blue. I've been very fortunate in that regard. I can't imagine that would happen again, most of my connections are getting close to retirement age at this point.
I think cover letters are still absolutely relevant to the job process.
I liken cover letters to cheat sheets that you prepare for an exam. You may not need to make one to be successful, but can be very helpful.
Usually with cover letters, I try to make the argument that I'm good for the company, and the company is good for me. This usually allows me to frame the way I look a new job as a business agreement where both parties can benefit, and that I'm not a parasite taking from them and not giving.
I don't make cover letters for each and every position I apply to or look into, but for those ones i think I have a good chance of landing and those companies I believe in, I'll absolutely put in more effort with cover letters.
Interesting. I'm a hiring manager, and I've seen many cover letters that actually hurt the candidate because they have typographical errors, poor grammar, or are addressed to a different organization entirely. Probably 85% of cover letters I see do no harm; most of the rest hurt the candidate. The way you're describing a cover letter sounds like it would be beneficial, but I don't see ones like that very often. I definitely would appreciate that you took the time to tailor it to us.
My advice for everyone is, if you're going to write a cover letter, proofread it just like the resume. If you're short on time, focus on the resume and skip the cover letter (if you can - they might be required for some applications). I definitely notice a sloppy cover letter, so not having a cover letter will hurt far, far less than a sloppy one.
I wouldn't toss someone's application just because their cover letter had a typographical error in it, especially if the candidate is otherwise well qualified. But, if I'm borderline on whether I want to interview someone, and the cover letter is sloppy, I'm probably going to pass. We're pretty detail-oriented, and a sloppy cover letter makes me worry about the details.
To me, I don't understand why someone would proofread their resume but not their cover letter.
Then again, I'd be someone that would put in the same degree of effort to the resume as the cover letter. Not everyone is like that.
Guess it just depends on if you find it worthwhile or not. If you can't seem to land jobs following interview after interview, it might be worthwhile to look into cover letters if only to help you orient yourself better to the job and company.
Nobody in my industry bothers to read them. You'd be lucky if they spend more than a minute on the resume so they're a waste of time.
Some organizations in my industry require them, so guess it depends.
Regardless of if it's required, however, I would still argue that it's good even if you don't have to send it to the company. To me, it helps me put my head in the right mindspace to argue for myself and make a case that I'm the person for them.
I couldn't count the number of people I've interviewed, but I can tell you that I've read exactly zero cover letters.
Again, part of my argument in favor of cover letters is that they help the candidate better prepare for the (sometimes multiple) interview process. They can help a candidate distill the main reasons as to why they want the job, which can make conversation easier if you're more comfortable speaking to those more personal things.
Neither approach is good if you are looking for work in the tech sector without an existing referral network.
I suggest that you;
- Ditch the cover letter
- Have a bulleted summary of your skill set that lists every skill and every technology you are comfortable with right on the first page
- In your experience, when listing your past jobs and positions, include list of every technology you worked with during your time there
- Customize your resume for every position by simply highlighting or emboldening every instance of the key technologies they are looking for in your resume
Note: Sometimes, when highlighting skills you might notice that your resume undersells your experience with that particular technology. Go ahead and edit it. This happens a lot and it is ok to view your resume as a living document that is constantly being revised. Don't just set it and forget it.
Just use a cover letter template with changeable placeholders
Spray and prey?
Applying to every available posting even loosely matching what you're looking for, and hoping something sticks.
I read the title, salary, if it's remote and maybe skim the "what we're looking for" section. Maybe. Me personally, will also skip any posting that has an application that'll take me longer than like 20 seconds to complete. So basically a resume upload and basic info form only. Registration? Skipped. Cover letter? Gone.
In an average search, in about a month I can have hundreds of applications in
none of the positions are real anyway. they just make them appear open because it benefits them financially.
when an employee leaves they just close the position and spread the work across existing employees.
if everyone would stop making and sending cover letters unemployment would skyrocket
I don't understand what you mean. Please explain.
They said that if everyone stopped making cover letters unemployment would skyrocket
