If only there were some kind of way for it to not devolve into totalitarian dictatorship...
lucky u, there is; its called just doing the fucking thing like normal, cuz non of the historical examples did that so u know.
Communism inevitably will always lead to dictatorship and totalitarianism.
In order to become a communist state, you have to: 1.) Get a bit army or group of people to enforce the upcoming rules. 2.) Force people to get rid of private ownership or threaten them to give it up. This will piss a lot of people off. 3.) Get rid of them if they don't. This will piss a lot of people off. 4.) Realize that you've pissed a lot of people off, and that your the only power in the land, you definitely don't want to give this up. 5.) Enact a single party system.....oh, fuck....
Communism doesn't work on a large-scale, and it's not sustainable. By it's very nature it's extremely prone to abuse, and fundamentally impossible to install any sort of checks and balances on a single party-system. Look how bad it is with a two-party system in the US.
There is, and most have, despite imperial core propaganda to the contrary. Here’s a 1955 CIA report that was declassified in 2008.
Even in Stalin’s time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist power structure. Stalin, although holding wide powers, was merely the captain of a team and it seems obvious that Khrushchev will be the new captain.
“Totalitarian” is itself propaganda: The Origins of Totalitarianism
Hannah Arendt came from wealth and so unsurprisingly was anticommunist. Her work was financially supported and promoted by the CIA. “Totalitarianism” is a bourgeois liberal, anticommunist construct for the purposes of equivalating fascism and communism.
Monthly Review, The CIA and the Cultural Cold War Revisited
U.S. and European anticommunist publications receiving direct or indirect funding included Partisan Review, Kenyon Review, New Leader, Encounter and many others. Among the intellectuals who were funded and promoted by the CIA were Irving Kristol, Melvin Lasky, Isaiah Berlin, Stephen Spender, Sidney Hook, Daniel Bell, Dwight MacDonald, Robert Lowell, Hannah Arendt, Mary McCarthy, and numerous others in the United States and Europe. In Europe, the CIA was particularly interested in and promoted the “Democratic Left” and ex-leftists, including Ignacio Silone, Stephen Spender, Arthur Koestler, Raymond Aron, Anthony Crosland, Michael Josselson, and George Orwell.
If fact almost all of the “Western left” (that wasn’t repressed by the red scares) was captured by the imperial core’s propaganda machine: Imperialist Propaganda and the Ideology of the Western Left Intelligentsia: From Anticommunism and Identity Politics to Democratic Illusions and Fascism
Rather than placing absolute power of The State in one person's hands, start with an elected council of members whose number is not divisible by 2. Transition to a Stateless co-op arrangement. Congratulations you just implemented Communism the way it is intended to be implemented, and no dictator could screw it up.
Sounds great. Unfortunately it has never succeeded for more than a few months. The last 100+ years have shown that attempting to transition to socialism in that manner doesn’t work. Each time the bourgeoisie manages quickly regain control of the state. Given that the worldwide capitalist class still holds a great majority of the power, siege socialism is the only method to have had any successes to date.
...and how do you enforce it? No one is going to want to give up the land that they worked for and purchased themselves, or that they developed. Give up your rights or we imprison or kill you?
And who controls this enforcing agency? The single party government? Because you can't have multiple parties.....how do you prevent the government from taking advantage of their position? Like, I don't think communism is this magical fix-all that you think it is.
It's really simple - centralization = seat of power
The worst flavor of people are drawn to that like moths to a flame. It's not even a good idea, any potential economies of scale are wasted by communication lag in the bureaucracy
Decentralization is key. You can have a commune easy enough, humans self organize just fine in small enough communities. There's communes all over the world doing just fine
The question is, how do you knit those small communities together in a way that doesn't give anyone much power, but still come together when needed?
Same for all forms of government including capitalism.
As a theory, sure. I just have yet to see it expressed in any functional way that didn't devolve into a shit show. See: Russia, etc.,
I think it's telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin's atrocities. :|
Russia devolved into capitalism. Funding a military is incredibly expensive and necessary when a communist country wants to exist in a world with the United States. This creates a militant economy that must be centrally governed to coordinate this military might. True democratic socialism is impossible as long as the United States exists as an imperialist force.
True democratic socialism is impossible as long as the United States exists as an imperialist force.
1, That's silly, there's tons of democratic socialist countries that are doing just fine - today! Bolivia, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand - think the US fucks with their way of governing?
2, the USSR was never a type of democratic socialism. Period. They literally called it 'soviet democracy' distinctly, and it meant something WILDLY different that the kinds of democratic socialism we see in the above listed countries.
Your premise is faulty, built upon an imagined soviet union that did not practice the tenants you're endorsing.
What makes it require capitalism suddenly?
My concern with this line of argument is that it bundles consequences from a system of government up with the consequences of trade embargoes and other hostile actions from capitalist economies. That doesn't make the actions of the dictators in those countries justifiable in any way, but might have precipitated conditions that made them more likely.
How would communist nations have fared if the US had taken a 'live and let live' approach to them? The approach during the cold war was that they couldn't be allowed to succeed. That led to the sort of standards of living where dictatorship tends to thrive. Note this isn't unique to communist countries. Look at the Republican party in the US, now that Neoliberalism is failing.
See: Russia, etc.,
Last time I checked sheikh-esque palaces and yachts are something that is not communism. Same goes for Putin's oligarchs.
I think it's telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin's atrocities. :|
For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why...
Putin’s oligarchs.
And where did Putin come from?
For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…
probably because they're losing their love of this special military operation slightly exceeding it's 3-days-to-kiev plan. Those dumb sonsabitches brought their dress uniforms for the parades they knew were going to happen.
lol
Any
currentreal-life examples of "communism good"?It's been democratically instituted many times. And every time America marches in and "liberates" them.
It's difficult to provide good examples when they're all actively destroyed.
Mostly this, although Vietnam is doing quite well, especially considering their circumstances.
Cuba is also really interesting...not thriving, to be sure, but you have to end the US blockade before you blame them for their own hardships. And in spite of everything, they have democracy like we've never seen in the west.
Edit: also what beejboytyson said about Cuba.
Yeah but all forms of government are constantly attacked. You’re like a multicellular organism crying foul because bacteria and other pathogens are trying to invade it.
One of the reasons capitalism wins is it produces enough wealth to win wars. Consistently. The same wealth that leads to ever-lower levels of poverty also wins wars.
If you ever been to a commune where people share food, resources, bills. They go under the radar.
Fell for this one before, Mr. Manson.
There was a reality TV show about communes and stuff. Granted it's reality TV but aside from the bad ones media doesn't cover them very much. Long story short, it really didn't do a good job of saying communism-good.
I think the best examples might be like Cuba having universal health care or something but ny experience was with a michael moore doc so it's kinda sketch to begin.
Communes are often cult like and authoritarian.
Open source software is like communism. Held in commons, free to use, contribute to, and benefit from.
Large-scale, actual communism with no authoritarianism? Not that I'm aware of. It's hard to implement true communism effectively on a large scale because most people have to care enough about others to willingly contribute for it to work.
Which is why it's a utopian movement. They do their best to enslave your thoughts and control your actions, and when that fails (and it always does) they slaughter anyone and everyone that won't play along.
No person is perfect, so when you demand perfection, you're going to have to get rid of anyone but those who are perfect at playing perfect.
Can you find a legitimate example of "communism bad?"
USSR Angola Cuba China DPRK Ethiopia Mongolia Vietnam GDR. I cant understand how people can look at a country that dramatically improved its peoples standard of living brought democracy and freedom, and not see it as a good thing.
Obesity isn't a problem in North Korea. They've met their BMI goals.
Just like Capitalism you aren’t going to find any examples of the system in the world today
When people actually lived in communes it was cool though
How it started: The kibbutzim were founded by members of the Bilu movement who emigrated to Palestine.
How it’s going: Gaza toll could exceed 186,000, Lancet study says
Related meme:
Thankfully we have other ways of coming to an understanding about China. Particularly the media, especially international media.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_papers
That often depends on whether one is talking about imperial core media or peripheral media. Yet another case of alwaysthesamemap.
Which international media? I'm guessing you mean media based in the US and US allies if you're anti-china
Funny, the same thing happened when I realized that I'm Trans. It's almost as if capitalist ran media is incentivised to lie and decive in ways that cause permanent damage.
If that explained it, all capitalist run media would be lying. But they are clearly not all lying.
It's more about who's running it what their goals are. Communist media is widely known for being filled with propaganda and lies, after all.
If that explained it, all capitalist run media would be lying. But they are clearly not all lying.
It's more about who's running it what their goals are. Communist media is widely known for being filled with propaganda and lies, after all.
Capitalist propaganda is so good you don't even realize it's almost all lies.
Advertisements are weaponized lying, nearly every capitalist run media is supported by advertisements.
Yeah the media is incentivized to maintain the status quo, they’d rather tell the truth, but they’ll lie to themselves and you rather than make the both of you think.
Viewed from hexbear this thread has 27 comments lol
Must be nice not having to be exposed to 440 …other comments.
Hexbear isn't federated with many communities though is it?
Lol I saw the comment that was removed. The comment couldn't have been more neutral saying people who ignore the problems in the most Communist historical societies reduce the perceived integrity of it's proponents.
This mod is the exact antithesis of this meme. Pure censorship.
Classic "improved democracy"
The removed comment was "as a black man"
shut up
But have you considered iphone vuvuzela
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Artificially upvoted😂 There is a spectre haunting Lemmy — the spectre of communist bots & trolls 👻
An interesting exercise is to replace "Communism is bad" with "Climate change is coming" and interrogate how we feel about that and why.
It is interesting to reflect that propaganda is involved for all kinds of policy application, including science. As someone trained in sciences, it's always a bit uncomfortable seeing folks extolling science as the exclusive solution to everything. The role of science in society is deeply tied up with values, norms, and policy. I think it's always good to have a healthy dose of critical self reflection, so we can engage better on the level of humanized reasoning, rather than on the level of regurgitated propaganda.
An interesting exercise is to replace “Communism is bad” with “Climate change is coming”
It feels like its more commonly "Climate Change Isn't Coming", with big factions in the O&G financed conservative movements arguing that the theory of anthropogenic climate change was itself a plot by far-left radicals to undermine the United States.
Case in point:
The role of science in society is deeply tied up with values, norms, and policy. I think it’s always good to have a healthy dose of critical self reflection, so we can engage better on the level of humanized reasoning, rather than on the level of regurgitated propaganda.
I've heard it said that the best propaganda is simply the truth from a very rarified viewpoint.
It is, after all, pretty easy to find left-wing activists - even left-wing extremists - warning against the threat of climate change and arguing for big socio-economic changes on the grounds that they are necessary to avert the worst consequences of climate change. It has even fallen into vogue to assert that capitalism creates climate change through negative externalities resulting from the profit motive.
Climate Denialists can and do fixate on this rhetoric to argue that climate change is itself a tool of propaganda to scare people into abandoning our modern military industrial complex. And with an overlapping interest between climate denialists and conservative activists, we routinely get an earful about how everything from relatively moderate carbon emissions cap-and-trade to more socially radical Green New Deal economics are nefarious plots by communists to Seize The Means of Production for themselves.
All good points. Sorry I'm coming from a non US perspective where climate change denialism is present, but less fervent. I like your definition of "truth from a rarified point of view", though I might also considered non-rarified or pervasive, and factually well substantiated truths can be used as propaganda as well. The 95%+ consensus of scientists on climate change is both factually/meaningfully/importantly true and also used with a propagandistic flavour in many examples of political persuasion for example.
My post was more aiming at acknowledging propaganda as a vehicle of persuasion for any and differing representations of reality (political groups) that exists in parallel with the the establishment of facts of reality. Some representations will adhere more or less with the factual arguments.
I like this comparison, it's actually interesting to think about.
Pretty much everyone tends to agree with the scientifical consensus that climate change is coming, whether they are capitalist or communist. The only people who disagree are those who are financially invested in oil, gas, or coal.
In a similar manner, the message that "communism is bad" comes from capitalist regimes that have a financial interest in preserving the status quo. If you want to understand people within a capitalist society, a really good way to do it is simply to follow the money.
it's always a bit uncomfortable seeing folks extolling science as the exclusive solution to everything.
Indeed. "We will do stupid shit because science will figure out how to clean mess after".
The role of science in society is deeply tied up with values, norms, and policy.
Especially policy. You can tell science to make as much money as possible or you can tell science to make lives as good as possible.
It's funny cause it's truuueee
This is like the opposite experience I had. Everyone said capitalism is bad and I get down voted to die if I say I disagree.
Yeah but that's based
There has been a weird switch in the last 10 years. Around 1990s it was obvious to just about everyone in the world how communism is a completely failed ideology. But somehow, it took just a single generation to forget that.
Something something gotta do the exact reverse of your parents whatever they're doing I guess.
Democracy was a failed form of government about 2000 years ago.
The Cold War never ended.
Around 1990s it was obvious to just about everyone in the world how communism is a completely failed ideology.
That's false. None of the communist that I knew then lost their communist ideology, and I'm not aware of a massive dissolution of communist parties worldwide.
I think the first time I interacted with anti-communism propaganda was Seinfeld. I didn't get it then. Still don't get it now.
Jerry Seinfeld is a strong supporter of theocracy.
"But... but.... communism had never been tried!"
"That wasn't real communism!"
"Read the theory!"
"Communism is the solution to climate change."--- proceeds to industrialise Aral Sea leading to shrinkage; and built the Three Gorges Dam leading to the massive deforestation and loss of biodiversity in flooded lands
Communism, the movement, has been tried and is continued to be tried. Communism, the end status of a global worker Republic devoid of class antagonisms, has never been reached. These are completely acceptable and compatible statements.
This brings us to the third: read theory so you don't think this is some "gotcha" anymore.
- China 9 years ahead of schedule on meeting its Paris agreement climate change goals.
- China has large, state-funded. programs to combat desertification
Meanwhile the US alternates having a climate-change denier hold its highest office. Also it's military is currently the world's largest polluter.
Do you have any sources on this aria sea and three gorges dam business?
Wikipedia is one click away:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea
Formerly the third-largest lake in the world with an area of 68,000 km2 (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea began shrinking in the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects. By 2007, it had declined to 10% of its original size
former United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called the shrinking of the Aral Sea "one of the planet's worst environmental disasters".
The Aral Sea region is heavily polluted, with consequent serious public health problems. UNESCO has added historical documents concerning the Aral Sea to its Memory of the World Register as a resource to study the environmental tragedy.
was that a stateless, classless, moneyless society?
It's worse when you say you're a Communist or say Communism is good, and people agree, but when you advocate for AES or advocate for standard Marxist theory the same people flip on you and call you brainwashed.
I haven’t gotten that far with people yet. I have only met people who say “no communism” but “socialism” or “Democratic socialism” or “social democracy”
There are two kinds of deviations on the left, right-deviations (aka opportunists) that are succdems and such, basically defending capitalism and always siding with libs against communists, and the left-deviations (also called ultras, leftcoms etc. often including anarchism) who refuse to acknowledge every real-world attempt at socialism as "not real communism", "statism", "authoritarianism", "state capitalism" etc. because real world has a habit of clashing with their ideals.
Some short reading.If you want to met those latter people, probably just wait for the answers for my comment here, since there's many of them here on fediverse.
why are all texts in different fonts
Kinda makes sense, it's different "voices"
Communism is bad
The guitarist in the fourth panel... is that Rock Against Communism? I've never actually seen bands, especially good ones, go "Yeah, fuck Communism! Gold for the gold god!" A lot of the best concerts were like those at Woodstock, or they'd be underground punk shows, or large arenas where the singer is sick and tired of record companies. If the fourth panel were really happening, it'd probably be Bumfuck-Nowhere, U.S.A.
This is literally on .ml, why are liberals flooding the comments.
Be happy the liberals are allowed to see this
Just like the far right, everything's just reflection for you guys? The horseshoe is real.
Federation
We are federated to liberal instances
The western-supremacists literally can't keep their mouths shut, when given a chance to denounce any country they consider "barbarian".
Because Lemmy.ml is federated with anti-leftist instances like Lemmy.world and Lemmy.ca. Lemmy.ml has a weird mix of very pro-Leftist posters and very anti-Leftist commenters because of this, people tend to post more on their own instances but often times scroll by all for commenting.
More self-sufficient Leftist instances like Hexbear or Lemmygrad don't see the same circumstances.
Free internet.
Sorry, are we disturbing your echo-chamber?
Accusations of an “echo chamber” or a “bubble” are always rich. As if we weren’t & aren’t still exposed to exactly the same life-long liberal indoctrination, education, and propaganda.
Hey look it's the guy from the comic.
Would you join me in supporting a defederation between lemmy.ml and these evil liberal instances? JOIN ME COMRADE WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT OUR CHAINS
Every system is bad and will ultimately fail for the vast majority. As long as humans partake in it.
What no theory does to a MFer. This is Idealism at its peak.
Tell me, why are Humans the problem?
Imagine how awesome a dictatorship would be if the dictator would want the best for their people instead of the best for their own? Oh right, never happened. Communism could be great, in theory. In real people partake and greed ruins it. Or is there a great working example?
And let's not even talk about capitalism. If you really have to question this, enjoy your young innocent life with ideologies. Not meant sarcastically.
Weird because China is succeeding quite well.
Probably more fascist than communist these days. My actual favourite theory though is that there are way more important things happening under the hood of nations, and whether they're called communist or democratic or whatever is just a veneer.
James A. Robinson's book Why Nations Fail for instance provides an interesting alternative way to look at this, that goes beneath the surface.
well, it's not that communism in itself is bad, but so far every implantation of it was bad
On the contrary, Communism has done wonders for the working class. Skyrocketing literacy rates, life expectancy, housing rates, access to education and healthcare, expanded democratic processes and political participation, and massive reductions in poverty.
Communism in theory is amazing, but in reality no such thing can exist, since our species are not able of this kind of cooperation. Socialism on the other hand is pretty much possible, but we have a long way to accomplish that.
This is Idealism, Human Nature changes alongside Mode of Production.
What do you believe Communism and Socialism are, and why Communism is impossible yet Socialism is?
Ooooohh burn bitch
Speaking of brainwashing: "Human nature is defined by our current economic mode of production"
Man living in city thinks humans can't cooperate.
Humans can't cooperate just like we can't walk on two legs and use tools. It's just against the natural order
Both are bad one (captlism) is slight ok but communism just pure garbage
If communism worked, there would nation using it. There's none.
Mix of capitalism and communism is best. Go too far in any direction and you're fucked.
If communism worked, there would nation using it. There's none.
There are many States currently existing with the overall ideology of Communism, or Marxism, as their base, such as the PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and DPRK.
Mix of capitalism and communism is best. Go too far in any direction and you're fucked.
How on Earth do you have a mix of Communism and Capitalism? Are you talking avout Dengism, where the Communist Party and State structure oversee a Market economy with heavy central planning, but allow foreign Capital and investment to speed up industrialization?
If communism worked, there would nation using it.
There would also be married bachelors.
Socialist governance seems to require concentrating an extraordinary amount of power in elite government decision makers; this tends to produce a new ruling class, the widespread deprivation of political rights for everyone else, and crippling poverty.
Thanks for showing up two days late to a 616-comment conversation with your brilliant analysis.
- Newsweek: Americans Can Now Expect to Live Three Years Less than Cubans
- Reuters, 2018: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data
- United Nations, 2019: Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s Founding
- The Economist, 2021: At 54, China’s average retirement age is too low For most men in China the age is 60, much lower than the average of 64.2 in the OECD, a club mostly of rich countries. For female civil servants the age is 55; for blue-collar women it is 50.
- https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
You just described the US, which is far from socialist.
Well I'm sure it was explained why but tell me about the benefits of Nazi Germany. I'll wait. 🤔
Thats not really relevant but ok
Erm, clearly you need an etymology lesson. Nazi - National. Nazi - Communzist
Nazi Germany, the capitalist country? Did you comment on the correct post? Are you confusing fascism with communism?
