They are both awful, yes, but one side is distinctly worse than the other
The problem is the less awful side's awfulness is what lead to the growth of the scary-aweful side.
Pretty sure it's the fault of the scary awful side for being scary and awful.
Yeah, a slow decline of the US empire is preferable for the third world, China, and Russia than to have to deal with Trump's weird international politics. With Joe you get a predictable further collapse of US power.
But having to vote for 100% hitler or 99% hitler means the current form of our electoral system should be dismantled (at the very least) no?
Yeah dude, let me just dismantle America rn. In the meantime, fuck anyone on the Republican shit list. They should of focused on dismantling america rather than transing their genders or whatever. Don't worry, after this revolution I'm gonna do they totally will be accepted and not targeted. But until then, doing minor actions that in no way hinder the progress towards dismantling america but do make the life's of queer folk maybe less concentration campy is pointless because thats only 1% less Hitler to me, and why would I care about that? A worthy sacrifice. I mean if I took the day to go vote, my whole socialist output, organizing and networking collapses! They are a sacrifice that I am willing to make. Thank you for opening my eyes.
Yes, but wisely by evolving beyond it, not by trying to fight a Goliath directly in their strongest areas. We're smart, we should be able to come up with real solutions.
Here's weird thought experiment
Think of our current government as scaffolding that we're all standing on 100 floors high, that is right on top of a slave/homeless/refugee camp/zoo (i.e. vulnerable populations). This scaffolding must be replaced because it's made out of rotting wood without sending us all crashing down on the camp and zoo killing billions of people and animals.
How do we do it?
The right wing position is to tear down the scaffolding by getting positions in site management and ordering replacing the rotting wood with broken plastic while kicking everyone they don't like, sometimes pushing them off the scaffolding. Of course, they don't care about any what the scaffolding is holding up or what's below, they just realized they can use this scaffold system to gain power and money.
The tankie position is to get your rotten wood hating friends together with their hammers and torches and start bashing. I guess they are either 1) seemingly unaware this will cause us all to fall, or 2) remember when it worked 100 years ago with the scaffolding was only 1 floor high and only a few people underneath and think it will be the same this time, or 3) are effectively right wingers on a different team in that they don't care about collateral damage as long as their team can rise from the ashes into power.
The liberal position is to put some polish on the wood and some rainbow and recycling stickers on some poles and send a few TV dinners below while we dump our trash down there and not admit that there are slaves down there making our stuff. The long-term problem of scaffold failure is talked about at various conferences and people donate millions to the "Replace the Rot" foundation.
I say the best way to go about it is to replace it part by part as it stands. Depend less and less on the bits of rotting wood and more on the strong sustainable replacements we build. Don't replace the very high bits that were built for ego by weak men, instead lift those underneath up onto the strong bits of the scaffold. Eventually we might realize that all that's left of the old rotting scaffold is that weak bit holding on at the end, might as well lop that off now that it's not critical to our survival anymore.
Now imagine we have an election between two site managers. Neither of them has any real plans to replace this scaffolding, in fact both have plans to expand it. Both candidates support the genocide in the neighboring scaffold.
Primary differences between candidates
Candidate #1 is going to criminalize talking about the scaffolding, ban encryption to ensure you don't talk about it, and start a new program to push more people off the scaffold.
Candidate #2 is going to do too little too late when it comes to truly solving the rotting scaffold problem or stopping people from falling off the scaffold.
Now ask yourself, under which candidate can I do more to solve the rotting scaffold problem directly? Under which candidate can I do my little part to solve the problem without falling or being pushed off the scaffold or being arrested? Under which candidate are fewer people going to be pushed off while me and my team go about fixing the scaffold ourselves because the leaders are unwilling or unable?
Voting is not about putting your support behind a candidate or identifying with them, it's a strategic decision taken to advance your goals.
The funny part as a third party voter, I think we would think different ones are distinctly worse.
Do you have any particular policies or are you just going to make claims? Trump’s policies were not good for the American working class, which is the vast majority of Americans.
His landmark legislation, the 2017 tax cuts, gave temporary marginal cuts to working people while giving substantial permanent cuts to corporations. He promised to fix healthcare. He didn’t. He promised to stop jobs from going overseas. He didn’t and, in fact, more jobs went overseas under him than Obama. He promised to fix the national debt. He increased it. He made a terrible deal with OPEC to cut oil production, which led to short term gains but eventually caused oil prices to skyrocket when economies recovered from Covid. His trade war with China hurt the US economy (for example, farmers who he had to bail out).
These are just some examples. There are many Biden policies that I am against but if you’re going to claim this admin has been worse for Americans than Trump’s admin, you need to provide examples.
Are they both objectively terrible?
I mean, trump seems obvious. Unstable wannabe tyrant/dictator from a party of evangelical theocrats, criminal, fraudster, blatant liar, thief, rapist, sycophant of dictators, insurrectionist, wife beater...and we haven't even dug in to the party that supports this behavior along with their LGBTQ hate, restricting womens' rights, voter fraud, election fraud, gun rights > your life, handing everything to the billionaires, environmental destruction of most every kind, and of course their NAZI underpinnings.
Joe is a career politician with all the baggage that goes with that, but he's not actively and willfully sabotaging the country.
One has worked with Bernie Sanders and helped get some his goals achieved in policy and legislature.
The other hired his own children despite their inability to get security clearances, cheated on his wife while she was at home with their newborn, paid illegal hush money over that matter, stole classified documents and likely gave them to adversaries, likely compromised national security multiple times, sowed doubt in our elections with zero evidence to back it up, blew up the debt, fucked up the Supreme Court and has said he’d ignore the constitution, term limits all of that.
But both sides amirite?
To put them in perspective, I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. "Can I interest you in the chicken?" she asks. "Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it? To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.
David Sedaris
I thought primaries were still happening? Not the general election.
Both are objectively terrible, the Democrats are tepid liberals that are trying to put band-aids on gaping holes in a sinking ship rather than solving the underlying issues.
The GOP is, of course, fascist, and thus far worse, but in the sinking ship that is America, continuing to sink without fixing the underlying issues is bad as well.
Actually fixing the problems is far greater than the DNC, which is far greater than the GOP.
Edit: no, I'm not advocating for third party voting, I plan on voting for Biden, because I believe change must come from below. Begging the DNC to fix the gaping problems with American society will never get anything done, ever. Organize, donate to strike funds, actually try to build pressure from below.
People really seem to think Biden should have a magic wand, or should somehow impose things the majority of Americans are against and when he can't they say he's the devil. It's so silly.
I'm far more radical left than most people and I've come to accept that, I have faith in the strength of my ideas and that they'll displace capitalism but understand it'll be a struggle and a fight. Biden has very likely literally no concept of the ideals I value, I imagine it'd take me hours to explain the importance of open source software for example and I don't expect he'd take it on board very seriously even at best so of course I wouldn't pick him as the leader of my.movememt but that's not what people are being asked to pick, they're picking the president of the whole country so of course he's also going to have to work in the existing frameworks and with the many factions that exist.
If it wasn't for his position regarding Israel and Palestine, I would have been pleasantly surprised by Biden overall. His administration seemed to be making a lot of good moves for a bunch of liberals.
Joe is a self-admitted Zionist. He's also a U.S. President and unfortunately for the Palestinians, U.S. hegemony in the Middle East is entirely predicated on a stable U.S.-friendly Country (i.e Israel) in the region.
"If we didn't have an Israel, we'd probably have to make one." ~Joe Biden
It's a shit-trap, for any POTUS regardless of their personal beliefs
That depends what you think the greatest threats to quality of life for the average in American are. I believe the greatest threat is the corrupt system, which gives more power and money to the rich and screws over almost everyone else, and both of those candidates are firmly entrenched in it.
They both know and embrace their role in that system, although they would phrase it in different terms.
Finally, you asked about objective terribleness. But there is no such thing. This is all subjective, because of course it is, the country has hundreds of millions of residents who all have different priorities.
It is a choice between pest and cholera one might be a bit less bad than the other, but realistically you don't want either.
Not voting is a conservative ploy. It's their best chance.
The process of evolving your leadership remains the same:
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pick the least-worse option, based on who can realize goals they're pitching that actually help people.
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repeat step 1 every election.
Since the conservatives in my country have no platform other than "My opponent is terrible!" they should be disqualified .. but aren't.
There is a real conversation that needs to be had about how do we drive the democrats left. Biden is not getting my vote. But I live in Delaware where he has no chance of losing*. I will vote green party.
The democrats are courting Republicans and old republican platforms. Joe Biden sounds like George Bush. I didn't hear or remember a single progressive thing in his state of the union but I heard issues driven by republican wants and unions sort of. I hear support but I don't see what Biden is doing. We have Supreme Court cases in line to strip the national labor board and almost all cabinet departments from governing yet I haven't heard a peep from the administration
Typo*
And you dont see how voting for the "lesser evil" allows both parties to move further and further right? I was actually taken aback by how blatant you were in your steps, most liberals dont state it so directly.
I'm gonna assume(hope) you think American foreign policy is bad real quick. Biden is complicit in a genocide, like an actual child killing, people starving, oppressor disguising bombs as canned food genocide. Sure trump is hypothetically worse, but by voting for biden you are showing the democratic party that you are willing to vote for someone who is actually genocidal. You are showing them that they can commit genocide when it benefits them and you'll still vote for them. Of course this isn't the only incredibly horrific thing the american establishment does that neither party budges on and the american populace just accepts. It's just the worst and most obvious at the moment.
Always remember that Germany voted for Hindenburg
And you dont see how voting for the "lesser evil" allows both parties to move further and further right?
I see a lot of people who aren't voting using this logic and I don't really understand it.
If there are some number of candidates running, and the most left wing candidate wins each time, how does that push the country to the right?
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The way to fight the 2 party system, starts at the grass roots and grows upwards, you can Not fight it from the top down.
The only other fast way to fight it is with violence, but without clear national unity and already decent leadership it usually results in some form of autocracy, making the situation worse.
Edit: violent revolution* usually doesn't work, but violence itself can be rather effective
I think you've falsely equated violence with revolution.
There are currently arsonists in Atlanta and elsewhere in the US fighting the creation of cop city and projects like it via property damage. That is violence with no danger of creating an autocracy. I'd argue the Black Panthers, the Suffragettes and the IRA all used violence which posed no danger of autocracy.
I do agree that strong group unity, some form of multistate participation, and good leadership and structure, are all very important for it to yield positive results.
Edit: put NRA instead of IRA, fuck me. Fixed now.
So say we all.
Get yourself some Approval Voting and Proportional Representation at the state and local level! Volunteer with Election Science to make it happen!
Oh man, the fucking sass in the comments of this post. You're all so passionate about these things.
.... And almost all of the arguments are whataboutisms. It's a fucking race to the bottom with everyone.
All I'm going to say is that not voting is not a valid way to protest. That's excluding yourself from the process, and letting others decide for you. Just go vote. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, just go do it. Have your voice heard.
I realize this years vote for Americans will very likely turn into a competition of who is less bad of an option, but you need to still go out and cast a ballot. Please just do it. Please!
He was equally alert to the problem of voter fetishism: voters mistakenly thinking the vote is an exercise of power, when in fact power in a capitalist society is collective, social and located largely outside the parliamentary realm. Elections had a place, but they were no substitute for mass working-class action in the workplaces, streets and squares. Ultimately power must be wrested from the capitalist class in revolution.
For like 99% of people arguing that 'voting is useless' they are also not working towards any other method of improving society. Either by working towards unions, or effective means of protest or even violent revolution. They're just opting out and doing nothing of value while feeling smug about being 'above' such petty squabbles.
If you are the 1% actually doing something of value that isn't voting. Congrats, I guess? But I think I'm far more likely to convince someone to vote, which is at least somewhat helpful than I am to convince them to join a revolution.
This is asinine. Trump has literally threatened to use dictatorial methods on his first day in office.
It's like approaching Hitler and Joe Rogan in the same room but you've only got one bullet. And instead of using it, you just walk away talking about how they both suck. Like, kill fucking Hitler, what are you doing?
The real answer is to have them put their heads together.
Since when is Joe Rogan bad enough to warrant getting shot in the first place? I feel like the guy has said some bad (and far more dumb) things but it's not like he poses any kind of danger to anyone does he? I know this is besides the point, but murder is far from proportional to anything (that I am aware of) that Joe has been known to do. With that said I don't really know much about what he's been up to for the past 5 years or so.
A lot of my American friends are buying into this both sides thing, they say prices are up and the democrats aren't doing enough to deal with the climate so neither really care about anything...
I've been an eco obsessive since the 90s so to me it's painfully clear the night and day difference between the two parties, trying to explain it is so hard because they've got their talking points like more drilling under Biden than Trump but when you try to talk about the lag effects related to leased land it's all just hand waved away - they've seen people talking about it as true and not mentioning that lease sales are at all time lows which will result in significantly less permits in future years so it's 'Biden bad, end of story.' Saying 'they say there'll be less but they say anything, they said there would be less now' totally ignoring the logic of the argument.
Right wing psychological experts plan these talking points and seed them, the left falls for them every time it's so frustrating.
I think part of the problem is people want the world to be simple, the immigration issue is another thing a lot of my left voting friends are struggling with at the moment, blaming the housing crisis on immigration for example then I point out immigrants working construction is super common and they say why don't they work instead of being put up in hotels so I say there's a complex process involved in getting a right to work designed to protect American jobs and many are rejected and returned to their country of origin without obtaining this right... but again 'it's super complex and messy but they're trying to improve things' is easily shrugged off just like with the climate argument by saying 'they only say they're trying, trying means nothing only actions matter'
The problem is the two parties play totally different games with totally different objectives. One is trying to tangle a ball of yarn into.a mess and the other is attempting to untangle it and knit a cardigan.
One is trying to tangle a ball of yarn into.a mess and the other is attempting to untangle it and knit a cardigan.
Building on this metaphor, one of my single biggest frustrations with the left is how many of them won't accept anything short of a fully knit cardigan; unless they get exactly what they want, they'd rather just hand it over to the tanglers.
The issue that I am passionate about is election reform. Including things like getting rid of gerrymandering, making voting more accessible, making the houses more representative of the people, and breaking down big donor influence on elections and policy. Neither of the big two parties comes close to making any of this happen.
If these things are not fixed, the parties in control can do whatever they want. They can keep us divided by shouting about one passion-based issue in public then doing nothing about it while serving big donor interests in legislation.
I don't see how any mainstream issue matters when you can't trust elected officials to act on any issue you care about. That is unless you are one of the self-interested donors who writes your own bills. Then it still doesn't matter which party is in power because you can control them both.
Off topic slightly, but I've seen on Lemmy lately where people are saying "get rid of gerrymandering" and I'm curious about the argument for this.
Honestly, I'd love for it to happen, but I assumed it was impossible in a Representative Democracy because of how the system/math worked. Kinda of an inherit problem. Mostly because the ways I've heard to remedy this issue is to distribute districts in such a way that they more closely resemble their population ratios. However, isn't this also a form of gerrymandering? Districts are getting set to way we think they should be. Not saying that wrong persay, just feel like a bandage solution. Like we're beating a nail in with a wrench. In a way though, this reminds me of the Observer Effect in a way
We had a brief chance to elect Sanders and we failed. Hillary gave us Trump.
I was more in favor of Yang, tbh. Dude had some forward-thinking ideas
Class solidarity, I bet those terms are well received by democrats
As bad as establishment candidates tend to be, trump is far far worse. The problem with the trump supporters is they boil everything down to "X bad, so not X good!" Trump was an outsider which is why they supported him, but just being an outsider doesn't automatically make you good, and in his case he's far worse.
two party system is 50% dictatorship, glad my country have multi party system
Yes, patronizing works.
When I say this same thing to the die hard blue team voters I get accused of being a Trumper and a fascist.
Tell them you can criticize and vote at the same time, thats what is supposed to make us different from the Maga chuds.
you need to remember that die hard dems voters are underneath the progressive veneer conservatives as well. The conservative brain can't understand nuance, only black and white.
the guy that outlawed collective bargaining?
Okay, I'm out of the loop on something
The NLRA was not overturned, its still legal.
Rail workers tried to use their collective bargaining power in negotiating with rail companies, Biden made it illegal and forced them to accept the rail companies terms.
Raise hell, praise Dale
Why is Dale Earnhardt giving political lessons to a red hat?
I'm out of the loop - who is the person with the "Plus" hat? Maybe the same person as in this meme?
That would be Dale Earnhardt
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Thank you! Is there a reason Dale Earnhardt is in these memes? Is he a leftist Nascar driver? (Maybe your video will answer my questions, but I don't have the time to watch an hour long video essay right now, though I'm quite interested and hope to in the future, thanks for the link!)
I see he died in 2001, so all the reasons I could think of as to why he's in two memes representing the Left are falling short ...
This would be a very different comment section if that was a blue hat lmao
Well yeah...
