"You're gay if you don't like football", "you're wasting your life if you don't want to get married and have kids", "you'll never find a husband if you don't wear makeup", "you're not a real man if you cry". The patriarchy is sexist to everyone, and that's why everyone should give a shit.
It's like when you talk to a small business owner. They'll talk about how the banks and big companies screw them left and right, but they'll also tell you that they think they'll end up Bill Gates. Same delusion
I find it interesting that, under a post on how men and, even more often, women, ignore men's mental health, you feel the need to specify that it's the men that lack understanding of the problem.
In conversations I've had around this I've found that women get this immediately, even if they hadn't considered it before. But men tend to be very resistant to the idea.
I hate this way of putting it, especially because it puts the blame on a single gender. It's not JUST men who shoehorn people into gender roles, we all do it.
It's off putting to me and I tend to dismiss the entire thing because it basically says that men being bad also hurts men. Had it said that men also are victims of gender roles I would immediately agree, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one who feels this way.
That's why it's so important to specify that men are victims of patriarchy, not victims of men. Everyone, regardless of gender, has an environmental tendency to reinforce the societal structure that we label "Patriarchy", as you say (and I/many agree), but there's far more to it than the idea of "men first women second". The idea behind the phrase is not "everyone vs. men" but rather "everyone vs. harmful but deeply engrained social construct".
As a father who is very involved in my kids’ life, I feel this frequently. At the start of each school year I submit my contact info as the primary contact info and yet sometimes emails will circulate among the class moms anyway. Or I’ll get a text from another kid’s mom asking for my wife’s number so they can plan something.
When we started making friends with parents of my kid, all the moms in the group created a chat group which they still use to this day. The dads didn’t make one because that’s just not a thing you do, and I wasn’t invited to the moms group, even though I knew them at least as well as she did, and I am the extrovert and my wife is the introvert. So I frequently feel lonely and isolated (I also WFH) and my wife is socially overwhelmed.
Yes I could just buck the system and try to get the dads to have a group, or have my wife add me into the moms group, or similar things in other areas of life. But that’s the point: any time I do that I’ll be going against the grain.
I have struggled so hard with this. My child's school cannot seem to understand that I, the father, am the one who primarily takes care of my daughter. My wife and I have started to flat out refuse to give the school my wife's contact info, even as an "emergency contact", just to make them communicate with me. I did manage to make a bunch of faculty at her old school mad when I asked, publicly, why they felt the need to discriminate against me when trying to contact patents, and this had the unintended effect of making a bunch of other fathers in the group pop up and ask the same question. Now my daughter is old enough that she, herself, will call them out on it. Having a ten year old lose her shit and tell the teacher that she needs to contact the right parent is really funny, almost as funny as when they insisted on contacting my wife instead of me, again, to complain that my kid had yelled at them for not contacting me.
I deal with this also except my ex abandoned us to move states away. She will still get notifications via email or text that she forwarded to me because they have her information on file. They have her information because I was forced to provide divorce paperwork showing I had custody of the kids to enroll them in school. Wonder how many moms get asked for paperwork proving custody when they try enrolling their kids in school. It’s reduced over the last three years but the first couple were ridiculous. Finally have a mom of one kid and dad of another kid that recognize I’m a parent to my children. Everything is stupid though. Every doctors apt, school visit, dentist apt, hell even trips to the store. Some BS content like “where’s mom” or “oh you’re filling in today”. I’m so sick of it. I cope by telling myself that at least it would be worse if the love of my life died horrifically instead of going bananas and abandoning us and I had to deal with this shit. At some point I’m worried I’ll snap at people but I never want to say anything negative about her around the kids.
Very similar. With our work schedules I end up spending more time with the kids than Mom does. My commute is much shorter and I can work from home a day or so a week. I feel like there is this whole network I am freezed out of.
My husband has had virtually no emotional support from anyone, so much so that he doesn't understand how to communicate any of his feelings.
"How do you feel?"
"I don't know"
"Can I do something to help?"
"I don't know"
I definitely don't ignore his mental health but his lack of communication drives me up the pole. Often I have to just walk away out of frustration. I wish I understood how to get through to him without it making me want to bash my own skull against the wall. I think a big part of it is that he doesn't want to admit that he has any emotions at all
"How do you feel?" "I don't know" "Can I do something to help?" "I don't know"
Yeah. That's real fun isn't it? And I really don't know. I'm luckier than most men, in that I have an understanding wife who doesn't use my emotions against me.
Maybe this could help him? It's from a peer counselor who deals a lot with these types of problems, usually with fairly nerdy guys, many of them on the spectrum.
I think it's sadly one of those things that people don't understand until it happens to them. They'll leave other men to their private hells and when it's their turn they wonder why everyone has abandoned them like they did other men so many times before.
"Hanging on in quiet desperation...". Huh. That lyric always hit home, didn't know why. LOL, I'm not even English!
We have all learned through experience to shut the fuck up. I've dated, a lot in the past 35-years of adulthood. Know what happens when a woman sees you cry? Dumped. Every. Damned. Time. And none of them ever expressed that it was a problem. But after enough experience, even my dumb ass can draw a cause -> effect line. And some asshole will try to be kind and say, "She wasn't a good person anyway!" Whatever. I still got dumped, over and over again. STFU, both of us.
Hell, I'm getting married next week. Third time's a charm! Seriously, no woman has ever loved me so deeply. No woman has ever treated me so finely. I have never felt so comfortable, and more importantly, secure with a woman. It's all a bit hard to get my head around, honestly struggling to internalize it. But read on...
Last night I tried to tell her how much cracking stress I'm under this month.
Thanksgiving week, I'm getting my young children (8 and 10), for the first time in 4 fucking years. I'm scared to fucking death.
My company just did a re-org. A welcome change to be sure! But I got a new boss in 2-days, and while I love him to death, and many people clamored to join his team, he's going to be challenging to sync with. It's next door to starting a whole new job.
I'm getting married on Black Friday.
"Oh! You are having second thoughts about marrying me?" (Her tone was "scared shitless", not "antagonistic".)
See what I mean guys? I should have just sucked it up. All I did was hurt her and gained nothing for my own mental health.
We gain nothing, and stand to lose everything, by showing weakness to our women. It's not their fault and I'm not condemning them. They're every bit the primates we are.
EDIT: She just came home from work and her first words were, "Are you still scared?" Damn what a woman. And how so very nice to be wrong this time.
I think most of us understand how things are. The problem is the one's whose opinions matter don't give a fuck about changing anything because they're at the top of the hierarchy. They benefit from treating the rest of us like shit.
The ones at the top of the hierarchy aren't the ones instilling these toxic ideals of masculinity in to young men. Parents and peers are perpetuating this on a personal level.
Thanks for articulating that. I've always felt that the title for a phenomenon that oppresses people based on their gender shouldn't be named for one of them. It doesn't help anyone.
Men do understand it. We live through it every day. It's the women who need to understand it. It's the women who seem to think that men have great lives and everything is given to them. That's not the case at all.
Men might understand that they are unhappy, but I don't think most men blame that on the cultural ideals of masculity that are pushed on them their whole lives. If most men do understand that, then why do they struggle so much to change? The common messaging in men's mental health is usually around telling men that it is ok to have feelings, ok to talk about them, ok to cry and show emotions. If men understand that they are being victimised by other men (and themselves) and the social pressures to conform, why is it so difficult to get those messages through to them?
And I mean, the fact that you feel the need throw blame on women here (who are also victimised by the same system) seems like you're not actually blaming the patriarchy?
ehhhh. often it comes out as "I'm unhappy because of women". it takes a special kind of introspection to really understand that you're participating in and probably reinforcing the system that you're suffering from.
Maybe it is just that I have had a long day, but please explain how the wealth devide is causing people to feel like they need to conform to toxic gender roles.
As a staunch feminist whose friends are all feminists, I have never heard a single one say—or even imply—anything like that. I very much know how extremely painful it is to have your feelings ignored and invalidated, so garbage like that is a dealbreaker.
If you're hearing this claim from people irl, they're saying it because they're shitty people... not because they call themselves "feminists".
People always seem shocked when I'm offended by terms like "I hate men".
Like it's somehow wrong of me to be offended by blatant misandry because I should just "know what they mean". I'm one of "the good ones, they don't mean me when they say it". Horseshit.
The blatant misandry that some people carry around like a badge of honor is kinda horrifying, if I’m being honest. It’s almost like they don’t even realize that what they’re doing and how they feel about billions of people is inherently wrong.
The second poster’s story so clearly shows why a man’s partner being their only emotional support is devastating to both people in the relationship, yet this idea is still so insidiously pervasive in our society. No one wins.
I am mid thirties male and getting divorced. Making friends as an adult is so hard. Even going to things I like, doesn't guarantee I'll click with anyone there really.
especially if your taste is a little off the beaten path. I really like a ton of music that most would consider "weird" or "an acquired taste," which means other fans tend to be condescending and douchey (I may be pretentious, but I try to draw the line at condescending). Add to that the fact that I live in a tiny town and that many of my other hobbies attract either edge-lords (i.e. TTRPGs) or bros (i.e. snowboarding and baseball), and it can feel like it's not even worth trying to get to know people with shared interests.
Luckily I work in a job where I can have meaningful relationships with several of my coworkers even if we have very little in common beyond the work (and my extroverted wife and kids mean I get about all the interactions my introverted self can handle).
edit: Almost forgot to offer you some support! Keep trying OP, there are people worth knowing out there, and you may already know some of them. I've had really good luck getting in touch with some college friends and doing discord or zoom game nights where we chat and play online card games or TTRPG's once a month.
Have you gotten the advice to make friends with other divorced dads yet? 🥲/s
Jokes aside, I’m sorry for your circumstances. I’m in my 20s and it’s already hard to make friends now, I can’t imagine how it’ll be in the future. Ironically enough, I have met and made friends with quite a few 30-40 year old divorced dad’s through local ttRPG groups and FFXIV.
If it’s any encouragement, most of them say they have bounced back after the roughest period of their lives in getting divorced, and are happier now than pre-divorce. I can’t really say if what they’re saying is truth or a lie, but I wish you all the best, from one internet rando to another!
I remember something similar to this when my mom died 15 years ago. Lots of aunt's and friends reaching out to my sister to support her, traveling across the country to visit. I don't think I ever even got a note.
But I do have the thing where I probably wouldn't have cared either, if not for watching the support my sister got, it never would have occurred to me someone could do those things. And I know those people aren't my actual friends, so I really had zero expectations from them. I think it was more the insult on top of injury that bothered me. "Not only do we not care, but we're going to show you what we would be doing if we did care."
I never took this as a boy/girl thing though. I never fit in in life, still to this day. Just sorta expected.
How did "grieve different" become don't grieve at all? I'd be willing to bet that if men started grieving exactly like women, they still wouldn't get the support they need.
I just watched Netflix anime 'Blue Eye Samurai.' Highly recommended. There's a scene where a princess is talking to the madam of a notorious bordello that specializes in the unusual. The madam goes on and on about how weak and fragile men are, how they need their egos massaged and need to feel supported.
After reading the post, I realized that this is a pretty common trope in fiction; sex workers talking about how most of their clients are only there because they need something that their jobs/families/communities deny them.
It's not just a thing in fiction either; I've seen plenty of threads and discussions over the years where real-life sex workers have essentially been saying the same thing. A lot of men are lonely.
Even in Japanese love hotels, I've heard it's common for men to book someone and just..cuddle for a while. Fall asleep being held. I don't have to live it to believe it.
I am seeing a lot of pushback--presumably from feminists--towards men that are expressing their experiences.
Guys it's okay to cry.
It's ok to have emotions.
It's ok to not be ok.
...But that has not been my experience.
Should it be? Yes, absolutely. But is it now? No. And unfortunately, in my experience, the women that are saying such things--almost always self-identifying feminists--are also often then ones that are unaccepting of any display of emotion in men that aren't coming from a place of strength. Men are e.g., expected to shrug off grief and depression and go back to work the day after a funeral. I shan't be too specific for risk of doxxing myself, but I've noted that I'm expected to muscle through physical pain and mental exhaustion, while none of my partners--either current or former--will hold themselves to the same standard that I am held to by them.
I cynically think that many self-identifying feminists don't want to abolish patriarchy, they just want to be able to benefit from it the same way that men do, without paying any of the costs for that benefit that men shoulder.
You do distinguish "self-identifying feminists" individuals who are "pushing back" from the ideology of feminism which is a worthwhile distinction. Because even with a boilerplate feminism 101 ideology around dismantling the patriarchy (and oppressive gender norms) recognizes it harms men as well, and advocates for a full appreciation and humanization of both men and women (and others) as complex sentient and emotional beings (see, equality). The first time I encountered anything about creating space for men to express emotions 15 years ago was through feminists. There's an entire field of men's health focused on mental health and dealing with masculinities in health contexts that were built on understandings of gender pioneered by feminist/critical academia.
The people "pushing back" against such emotional space and empathy are advocating for things more aligned with misandry rather than feminism.
Yes, I agree; I don't think that the people that have given me shit are actually living what they claim to believe. (...Which could also be hypocrisy.) I agree with the primary goals of feminism, if that primary goal is the dismantling of gendered power structures and gender norms so that people can be who they are rather than artificially--and negatively-constrained. OTOH, there are plenty of self-identified feminists that make broad generalizations about negative behavior, and apply that generalization to all men; I don't think that's helpful, unless your goal is to drive away potential allies such that you can feel justified in your rage.
I've had similar experiences and when I've shared this previously all the response I got was "well date better people" as if I have a line of women waiting for their chance with me to select from.
I've lost a few relationships for exposing myself as a man with emotions. I don't plan to make that mistake again. It sucks, but until society changes I can't.
I have made quite different experiences, the people I felt safest to open were feminists.
Edit: I am sorry for your experience and didn't wanted to downplay it. However, as there are many answers in a similar direction as yours, i wanted to give an alternative experience.
I'm genuinely glad that you've had good experiences. It's possible that my age--I'm pretty sure I'm 20+ years older than the average Lemmy user--has made a difference in the interactions I've had. It's also possible that being neurodivergent has influenced my experiences. I truly don't know; I've only got a single test subject, n=1.
Ah, fuck it. We’re supposed to suffer in silence. We’re men. Man up, guys! Grit your teeth and bear it! (/s)
No one checks on me and that’s fine. I don’t really need people to check on me like I’m fragile. I fight my own battles; always have, always will. But for those who do need the more frequent check-ins, they should absolutely have them and should be able to ask for them without fear of ridicule or mockery.
The fact that, statistically speaking, no one cares about lonely folk is pretty discouraging, but you can’t force people to care. And even if you could, it wouldn’t be worthwhile or heartfelt. I sure as hell don’t want people to feel like they have to give a shit.
Stay strong, gents. It’s not weak to ask for help if you need it, even from internet strangers.
I remember when I was having a really rough time at work. My boss was pressuring me into leaving due to repeated underperformance, and I was working well into the night and all of my weekends, for a solid year and a half.
One day I came back from work fully dejected, feeling like a useless sack of dumb crap. My roommate asked me what was up and why we never hang out.
I told him that it was all just a bit too much. His reaction: "man up, or quit." The automatic lack of sympathy stunned me a little, though he might have been right that I really should have just quit. (Full story: I didn't, it did get better, and I even turned some of my detractors into friends, but it was a long road, and I definitely have an unhealthy relationship with work.)
Yesterday I had a comment from a woman friend along the line of "my daughter says you're always serious but nice. You should work on that". She didn't think of asking me why I am always serious...
Gotta love that even the very emotional "men have feelings and need support too" post ends with "treat them as wretched because they are wretched." Absolutely fucking tonedeaf to bring that type of negativity and derogatory generalization about men to this context. Big "not all men, but..." energy
Now you're reading it incorrectly: it is "treat [wretched people] as wretched because [wretched people] are wretched", not "treat [men] as wretched because [men] are wretched "
It's written incorrectly. "Only some men are sad. Don't treat all men as though they're sad." How insightful and almost converse of the point, which is, "Gender doesn't determine sensitivity or need."
Quote me a single part of that third post that is explicitly gender neutral rather than explicitly about men, without adding your own interpretation in brackets.
It's less that the statement is false. But more that the statement is being made at all.
It's like writing a post about how people are too quick to dismiss women as being overemotional, and someone commenting on it by saying
I'm not saying you have to be nice to or defend hysterical women, but don't treat them as crazy just because they are women. Treat them as crazy because they are crazy.
It's just bringing up a stereotype that acts as an excuse to deny men empathy, in the same way as mine does to dismiss women.
I don't disagree with the general message of "Judge people for who they are", but the way it's written is tone death at best.
Maybe the circle they're in is just pretty misandrist so it needs saying. But it just seems unnecessary to me.
This is a post talking about mother’s and father’s dead children and their imbalance of support, yet the third slide boils it down to “saying all men are disgusting pigs hurts my feelings.”
As a military veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, this shit hits home. I've seen men break down and men who push it down until it is safe to let the feelings come out. Both are common, but for men you have to be able to keep the emotions in during a crisis situation. The men and women who are unable to do that pose risks of sudden suicide or uncontrollable behavior. Everyone has to let them out, that is extremely important.
A good friend of mine served in Afghanistan up until the very end. Never seemed to have any issues, was always cool and made the military seem like the most boring place on earth.
Flash forward to like a year ago and he's got PTSD triggered by seeing his own kid and can't sleep at night. No idea what happened, but yeah. It hits people.
My best friend of 15 years told me, when I had a rough patch, that he's there for me just reach out but unless I initiate he would treat any interaction as just a normal day.
Throughout the rough patch I choose not to speak of it and just treated our hang outs as a chance to get away. He choose to support me in the only way he knew how and the only way he was comfortable with. I was not comfortable and didn't know how to ask for more support. It's about 7 years from then and my parents still don't know, I just don't know how to ask for and engage with emotional support. I am completely weirded out by the concept of talking about my emotions and somebody else caring, it gives me a high level of anxiety.
TLDR: small male friend groups with limited experience providing or receiving emotional support are unlikely to provide explicit emotional support and there's a good chance if you're a man who needs it you don't know how to ask
It's 100% natural to not want to bring up personal/emotional shit as a guy, it's hardcoded into our DNA it seems.
I for one, don't because when I do get a rare chance to hang with the guys I'm not going to Buzzkill it, and neither do they like it's an unspoken man code. Our therapy is not talking it out like women do. Our therapy IS the hanging out/activities we do with our friends.
I used to be all feminism when I was younger. Now I have two kids, I realized man do a sht ton of things without being recognized. It's always that "you are the man, you are supposed to do it" kind of thing. But when it's the other way around like when I asked the ladies what about their "women duties", it's all excuse and argument. It can suck balls being a responsible man.
Also, isn't that still under the umbrella of feminism? Feminism isn't "only women rule". Recognizing gender stereotypes affecting men's mental health sounds very much like a feminist thing.
I felt very much the same way when I was trying to figure out what was going on and what I believed. What I ultimately landed on is that feminism is really the only game in town when it comes to identifying what is actually happening. I found Bell Hooks' The Will To Change immensely useful in sorting it out -- it's not men vs women, it's the patriarchy vs all of us. One thing she wrote in that book that really resonated with me, and is basically what this post is about, is something along the lines of "the first act of violence that patriarchy demands of men is the destruction of their own emotional selves."
On average women do more things like give up careers for child rearing, still do tons of daily drudgery like family organizing, housework, Dr. appointments or school activities, cooking, etc. that all goes unrecognized. Dudes go out and do some yard work on a weekend and then hit the couch like they moved the world and should be waited upon for it. I’m a dad and keep my damn mouth shut about my work because my other half has to deal with all the shit when I’m gone at work.
So unless you’re directly acknowledging, lavishing praise and love on all the thankless stuff your wife is doing, you don’t have a leg to stand on.
E: huh. Didn’t know this was a red pill /c. Guess men are justified in complaining while we ignore women facing the same problem.
I’m a dad and keep my damn mouth shut about my work because my other half has to deal with all the shit when I’m gone at work
Well, that seems unhealthy as hell as well. This is the whole stoic to a fault bullshit for both partners now. I'd say vent to your partner and let your partner vent to you about your shitty days. Why live your life together but not be able to share your burdens? Just my two cents though.
Maybe pre 2000s. NOwadays, man are very much involved in every aspect of the family if given the chance. I get most men still don't care but it's changing!
This might be a rare scenario. Both me and my wife work long hours. I am more in charge of the family, kids, chores, and fixing our house. She took everything for granted until one day I stopped doing chores that i have been nagging her for years to do so i can focus on issues surrounding the house(we own a large century old house) I am also the one on top of our kids health, diet, and education. Oh, I cook for the family. Sometimes I told her I am the MoM and the Dad and she's the friend. Friend can't raise friends.
Every time I confront the responsibility among us and that she should Mom up, my mom, her mom, and my wife starts accusing me for being difficult.
I had home cooked food on the table every night and I got no recognition from the 3 women in my life. When she made something once in a bluemoon, she got all the praise. My mom dare to gell me I gotta start cooking more for the family. Lmao. I can never win.
I'm gender queer, and am biologically male, but presented femininely and used she/her and a feminine name for 7 years or so.
The first time I experienced a good friend seeming like we only interact regularly because they're interested in dating/hooking up with me warped the way I relate to other people and really helped me understand why women are often so guarded against advances. Men and women deal with very different issues, but both are very real. It's nice to see people talking about the issues men face also. The way our society treats people on the basis of gender sucks dogshit :(
Men have it really hard. So hard, in fact, that people are increasingly turning towards the manosphere.
Rather than taking the terminally online Reddit mod approach of ostracizing MRA's, incels, MGTOW, red pillers, etc, we should be asking ourselves why people increasingly turn to these movements.
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not a cause of our societal ills, and that is hugely concerning. A deeply misogynistic sex trafficker should not be the role model that today's youth look up to.
There's. Ricky Gervais show called Derrick, every time I feel I need to just bawl my eyes out I binge that show, it hits you right in the emotions but in a way that makes you feel good.
I highly suggest anyone who feels like they're nothing or can't contribute to society or just anyone who enjoys a feel good mockumentary to give that show a burl
I wish my dad would reach out and talk with someone about issues. My sister died last year and he decided he didn't want to talk to his good friend about it because his friend still has two daughters and won't know what it is like.
He doesn't have anyone to talk to except for me and my mom, he won't do therapy to get through his guilt of surviving cancer while she didn't survive it which if he went to therapy he would realize is ridiculous to have because they were different cancers.
My mom at least is going through therapy which is helping her get through the loss.
I've got two trans guy friends and I often check in with them on my discord server to make sure they're doing okay. Unfortunately we have one person who is the total opposite of the rest of us. I mean the "the trans idea is pushed by big medicine" type. Other than their views, they get along well in the server and i accommodate everyone there. If one of the two trans guys wish for the other person to be blocked from their channel, I do that, so they have a place they can talk without being looked down upon.
Got 2 similar situations here these days, very hard times for my cousin. Try to be there as much as I can & unconditionally, of course. Hope it helps a little bit. On the other side of the spectrum: my father is slowly dying and the male part of his (numerous) new family is completely oblivious about talking about it or doing something different than "supporting the emotional women". That contrast is baffling. Guess what part lives out in the country and what part is more "city folks"...
Said someone who doesn't understand what that actually means. The toxic masculinity in this post is the exact type of shit to go "lol but guys the patriarchy" like it isn't a fully fuckin defined concept in sociology. Don't let the patriarchy win, don't be toxic.
The belief that toxic masculinity is harmful to men as much as women is not incompatible with recognizing that women still deal with systemic misogyny. In fact, they're two sides of the same coin, the outdated perception that men must always be strong and stoic to protect the weak and emotional women.
Maybe you should actually talk to men rather than talking for them.
You're not all knowing.
Even in that post the two men both said they got support from men but not women.
Time and time again you can look up question on the Internet like "Men why don't you open up to women?" "Why don't you cry in front of your girlfriend?" Etc etc. Its always full on men saying "I did that is was a huge mistake, I learnt my lesson." Then they say women either lost respect for them and dumped them immediately or as soon as an argument happened they used their insecurities against them.
What women don't seem to understand is guys can call each other cocksuckers but also be there for them when they need it. Girls don't call their guy friends names but importantly they aren't there for them.
Maybe you could use this as a learning exercise? I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.