Lemmy.world Hexbear Statement
Lemmy.world Hexbear Statement
Update:
The comments from this post will not be removed as to preserve the discussion around the announcement. Any continued discussions outside of this thread that violate server rules will be removed. We feel that everyone that has an opinion, and wanted to vent, has been heard.
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Original post:
Yesterday, we received information about the planned federation by Hexbear. The announcement thread can be found here: https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770. After reviewing the thread and the comments, it became evident that allowing Hexbear to federate would violate our rules.
Our code of conduct and server rules can be found here.
The announcement included several concerning statements, as highlighted below:
- “Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated.”
- “The West's role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”
- “These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term "rules-based international order." It is in the Left's interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”
The rhetoric and goal of Hexbar are clear based on their announcement: to "dismantle western propaganda" and "demolish organizations such as NATO” shows that Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.” It’s to push their beliefs and ideology.
In addition, several comments from a Hexbear admin, demonstrate that instance rules will not be respected.
Here are some examples:
“I can assure you there will be no lemmygrad brigades, that energy would be better funneled into the current war against liberalism on the wider fediverse.”
“All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.”
- https://lemmy.world/comment/121850
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1487168
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1476084
- https://lemmy.world/comment/171595
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3648500
Overall community comments:
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526128
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526086
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3652828
To clarify, for those who have inquired about why Hexbear versus Lemmygrad, it should be noted that we are currently exploring the possibility of defederating from Lemmygrad as well based on similar comments Hexbear has made.
- https://lemmygrad.ml/post/158656
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/882559
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/540170
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/446529
Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. However, based on their comments and behavior, no positive outcomes can be expected.
We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons. While we understand that not everyone may agree with our decision, we believe it is important to prioritize the best interests of our community.
I definitely appreciate the hesitation in defederation, but I'm in favor of defeding with both hexbear and lemmygrad.
I've seen more than enough "Stalin did nothing wrong posts" to know that discussions are pointless and would lead me only to frustration and a desire to drink.
Honestly the hardcore tankies initially soured me from joining the fediverse at first, until I understood how the fediverse functioned and realized it was just a loud minority that held extreme views. It's still disturbing to read genocide denialism while openly supporting things such as authoritarianism and Russian imperialism.
Tankies are souring a lot of people from joining in my subjective experience. One of my friends questioned the presence of them and the views of the developers (and also why the "main" (not accurate but they haven't even joined, so) instance lemmy.ml had the .ml domain to begin with) and I couldn't give a satisfactory answer at the time, as I didn't know enough about the place yet.
Upstanding instances should do their part to defederate from any tankie or fascist instances, so we can all distance ourselves from extremist rhetoric and make it seem like an actually OK place to hang out.
Yeah, I checked out Lemmy some time ago and noped out pretty quick after seeing it was mostly just Lemmygrad at the time. Happy to be here now that there's a lot more going on and not super keen on that face of Lemmy gaining a bigger presence again.
Whether it's reddit or lemmy I've always blocked all politics and world/local news related communities, since they rarely seem to really be a place that's been cordial in the comments. And I've moved onto RSS feeds anyways over user submission driven news feeds.
Seems to be what has kept me the most sane and happy using social media.
"Stalin did nothing wrong" posts. Where are those, exactly?
We criticize Stalin plenty. We just don't buy that he ate babies and murdered innocent farmers with his bare hands.
Just block them bro.
I had enough of people like you, but you don't see me asking that we defederate you.
It's because as a solid minority. That is often hated in the places they once had jurisdiction for good reason. You generally don't get the chance. Or if you did, it would close you off in a tiny little Echo chamber that's already far too strong. And I say this as someone who is supportive and open towards communism and abolishing Concepts such as private property and replacing with personal property. But I am sanctially against ml communism.
I absolutely think there can be a discussion about whether or not Vladimir Lenin's Legacy on the whole was neutral. He definitely did some good things for russia. Though those same things were happening around the world regardless. So it is impossible to say that they wouldn't have happened without him. But it is possible to say absolutely that a lot of death destruction and brutality were enabled by him. And his ideology single-handedly setback discussions of all left-wing Economic Development for a century or so. Those defending Stalin Mao or even Xi today. Well I don't have anything diplomatic to say about them.
Does hesitation mean something else where you live?
Freedom of speech does not constitute an obligation to listen.
Good for you!
Exactly. Freedom of speech != Freedom from social consequences
Well, in a truly "free" society, yes freedom of speech would constitute freedom from "social consequences." However, the United States, and in fact, no Earth government, is a truly free society. There are rules and laws that exist, thus restricting freedoms. However, specifically regarding freedom of speech as it is mentioned in US law, it specifically is a protection for citizens from retaliation by the US government, and does not cover interactions between citizens.
So I wouldn't say "freedom of speech doesnt mean freedom from social consequences," but rather "freedom of speech does not include a requirement that others listen." There are laws with regards to how other citizens can respond, including laws against assault and libel and such. But there is no law that says anyone must to listen to what you have to say simply because you have the freedom to say it. Thats quite a preposterous idea.
At least in the US, each citizen has the right to say what they choose within the constraints established by law, and to choose who they will listen to.
Now if only everyone would be so quick to defederate preemptively from Nazi instances.
Not really no. I have a pretty extensive defed list on my instance if you want to check, but it's not all Nazis (bots as well).
What a great sentence, well said. I’m going to use that in the future.
I usually support that sentiment, but it only applies when it is in your hands whether we listen or not. In this case, the admins singlehandedly decided that none of us can. This is pretty much a form of censorship IMO
The admins don't control you. You can have an account anywhere else you want to. So unless you're paying for the servers here, you can deal with the Terms of Service or not use it.
As I said in another reply:
The people who own a lemmy instance have the right to associate (federate) with whatever other instances meet their guidelines.
If you don't agree, then you are free to join a different lemmy instance that is federated with objectionable material.
You don't have the right to demand that lemmy.one meets your standards. You don't own it.
If you find that no other instance federates with what you want, you're free to make your own, with blackjack, and hookers.
Try telling that to the lemmyers (lemmings?) In this Technology thread that were clowning mastodon.art for blocking social.bbc for BBC's history of transphobic rhetoric, considering there are a decent amount of transgender people (and other LGBTQIA+ identifying people) are members of their instance. Same situation, definitely not the same reaction.
EDIT: It was in Technology on lemdro.id, not Fediverse. EDIT 2: Spelling
Yeah but there's a big difference.
As people right fully call out in that thread, defederation from the BBC without them having had a fediverse presence to do anything worth defederating with is wild. It's the same broken argument as pre-emptively defederating from threads was, barring worries about sync-load or something.
But in the case of Hexobear, they do have lots of content based upon which you can judge whether federation with the instance is worth the extra moderation effort for you as an admin or not. In this case the lemmy.world admins decided that it is not worth it, an defederated.
However, importantly they had something to judge what working with the communities from the instance would be like. With BBC or Threads, no one had that. And while every instance admin is of course free to do whatever they want, they're also making a really good point against the fediverse as a technological solution if they act that way.
Consider that if it were a central site, defederating from tankybear is the equivalent of banning a community. The BBC/Threads thing is preemptively blocking a community from ever being created. There are very rare cases where the latter might be warranted, but it's tough to imagine scenarios where it would have a meaningful reason.
What gives you the right to constrain what other people see? Just go ahead and ban them yourself if they offend you so.
I just created this new account because people like you see in themselves the right to constrain what I see.
The people who own a lemmy instance have the right to associate (federate) with whatever other instances meet their guidelines.
If you don't agree, then you are free to join a different lemmy instance that is federated with objectionable material.
You don't have the right to demand that lemmy.one meets your standards. You don't own it.
If you find that no other instance federates with what you want, you're free to make your own, with blackjack, and hookers.
I'm not in favour of pre-emptive defederating. It feels like censorship doing so and that bothers me.
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Their note to their users specifically says to keep their anti establishment opinions and trolling to their own communities and don't spread it further for fear of defederation. It hardly sounds threatening to us.
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Defederating can happen at any point, and I think would be better kept as a reactive response and last resort rather than proactive.
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The more our large instances start fracturing and closing off from one another the less useful Lemmy will become. You're hardly blocking out an idealogy, if hexbear users wanted in they could just sign up and that would make it harder to find them. At least having them federated makes it easy to filter out @hexbear if we wanted.
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Practicing tolerance goes both ways. Calling communities 'them' vs 'us' and judging a group based on the noise of the few doesn't seem like the right approach. If hexbear became a problem and moderators complained of hate speech and conflict then absolutely we use the tools we have to keep things functioning, but filtering out groups because we don't like 'their' belief systems will make us judgemental and biased as a result. This is a platform to promote discussion not an echo chamber to gather like minded opinions and bounce them off each other in perpetuity.
These are very good points, imo. Preemtively banning a sizable community without even a dialogue beforehand will only stir more extreme opinions and division between instances.
(Previous comment looks like it was bugged or something. Reposting it)
That's not the real danger. Anyone that thinks that isn't going to happen anyway is fooling themselves. All social networks trend toward individual clubhouses, and Lemmy's design is perfect for that. This is not a fault of technology, it's a people problem, it will be recreated everywhere one way or another.
The danger with preemptive moderation of any kind is that it turns moderation into gate keeping, and we simply can't trust that to be even handed, no matter if they're left, right, or center. There perverse incentives to abuse that are too numerous.
Whether it be users or instances, action should be taken after something has been done, not before. This is one of the slippiest slopes there is and it's troubling there's no standard, shared code of ethics admins are using that will prevent that
All of that being said...when I read Hexbear's rules, the tone and obvious motivations of the admins there, I can't help but feel like this isn't unwarranted. For one very basic reason:
Hexbear's motivation is openly about how it can affect other instances, and it's rules are basically just telling their users to "go forth and do the thing but don't get banned". That, more than anything else, should get a defederation. Instances should not exist for the purpose of influencing other instances. Full stop.
Just....read that shit. Really take in the open contempt they have for other instances filled with people that don't toe the line. It's like a ship flying neutral colors coming up on the starboard side but the cannons are clearly loaded, and the deck is filled with peg legs and eye patches. It's painfully obvious what they want, no parley needed.
I’m not in favour of pre-emptive defederating.
I agree, though I hesitate to call it "pre-emptive defederating". But I can see the viewpoint.
To me, pre-emptive defederating is what was done by most Mastodon instances with Threads. Or how mastodon.art defederated from BBC. There was nothing to judge there. There was no content. Nobody could have said what kind of content would be seen on threads or the BBC instance. You could guess, sure. But you had absolutely no way of knowing.
With hexbear, there is plenty content there to judge, and historically federated influence has always been the same as local, that is, the behavior of a fediverse community is not meaningfully different outside of their own instance. As a result, the admins of instance Y can judge what federation with instance X would look like, there is data there to look at.
Pre-emptive to me would mean having no community content to judge at all, like the Threads and BBC examples.
The more our large instances start fracturing and closing off from one another the less useful Lemmy will become.
I will add that this is in the nature of the fediverse. It is inherently not useful as a replacement to social media centers such as Reddit, because it's decentralized nature implies the fracturization has to happen, and social media works best when everyone is in one giant garden party for chance meetings and spontaneous interactions.
That's not necessarily a doom&gloom thing, it just means that by its very nature, software such as Lemmy cannot be useful to users who are seeking to replace Reddit. It can be Lemmy. Which is something else, albeit superficially similar in some regards.
(edit)
However, in general I do agree that they should probably have been allowed to federate and then re-evaluate based on how it works out. If their posts average X% downvotes, if Y% of local users end up filtering them or if a large portions of moderator actions are just from having to manage those users, they can still defederate.
I looked over the instance, and I cannot see anything I'm missing out on, but I can understand why others would want to at least give them one chance.I completely agree with this well thought-out comment. In fact, point 3 is evidenced in this very comment section.
Yeah, I'm really surprised with regards to point 1. "We have opinions that we recognize are unsavory to others so keep the especially unsavory stuff here so we don't piss people off" seems like a good thing. I feel like defederating this early may have been the wrong call, but I don't think regenerating now is the right call either. I suppose the argument is that they don't believe it will actually be contained.
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I have lurked here for a long time, but I just don't understand the logic here. I read the statement that was linked here, and it just seemed like they were saying that they should be respectful and follow our rules? ... Isn't dismantling propaganda... through "informed rhetoric" a good thing? Why are NATO, the IMF or World Bank automatically good? ... Aren't we just creating a bubble by preemptively blocking a large lemmy instance just because we don't like their political speech? As far as I can tell they aren't promoting racism or bigotry. Has lemmy.world preemptively banned nazi or right-wing instances?
Has lemmy.world preemptively banned nazi or right-wing instances?
no. it was an ordeal for them to ban the nazis over at exploding heads.
Concerning.
Yea implying that we don't have propaganda and narratives on our side of the wall is naive
If we want the truth then an open discussion is the path. There will be arguments in bad faith, sure. But that's not limited to "them". It's a human discussion thing.
I read the statement that was linked here, and it just seemed like they were saying that they should be respectful and follow our rules?
Read through some of the first set of links if you haven't. The same admin who's trying to gently suggest they don't troll is talking about how their instance won't brigade lemmygrad because the energy is better focused on the wider war against liberalism in the fediverse. It calls into question exactly how real that suggestion is vs. just a pro-forma attempt to head off this exact result with a toothless suggestion they know no one is going to follow.
That’s my take on it too. It’s a token post saying to do it, but we’re going to denounce you if you’re called out.
This would be a lot more believable if your account wasn't just 6 hours old.
Probably doesn't want to be brigaded. I've had random posts and comments downvoted by neckbeards for no reason. To the point that people in that community (LotR) were replying to me in surprise.
shut up troll
Granted I only see the cherry picked statements in the post, but these things do not speak from a place of neutrality or at the very least openness. When all those things being bad is stated as close to fact, and them being against western propaganda,. They seem, to me, much less like a place that wants no propaganda and discussion of world organizations, and instead it sounds like a place that wants all of it gone and no place for western/left supportive discussion (which can be labeled propaganda, which may be a negative outlook on my side but any other site saying they do not want propaganda of one side usually isn't very happy about arguments in favor of said side even when said thing is a fact or at least relevant to the discussion)
There were also comments very much critical of federation here because of some political joke posts. If shit post tier jokes on political figures aren't ok things will work out. because it's a Chinese communist it's about, I'm also extremely sceptical of ho well.
With that said, I'm not completely against the federation, but it would require the mods to be vigilant and see if the federation doesn't harm the general community over time. That might be a lot to ask for, since I do not know how much time and effort they already put into this already.
Because for these people "informed rhetoric" means quoting russian propaganda websites and repeating keywords to sound informed. They're no different than flatearthers once you do some research, however. Unlike flatearthers, tho, these guys are trying to undermine progress so they are a lot more harmful
I hear the accusation thrown around about russian propaganda all the time, and it seems so spurious to me. It seems like a conspiracy theory unto itself. It is thought-terminating. Back when I used to go on reddit, I would get called a bot occasionally myself. It is something people throw out there so they don't have to entertain any sort of cognitive dissonance. Like, if information is exposing a truth, but you don't like source, that does not necessarily mean that it is untrue. Im sorry. That is a logical fallacy itself. it also ignores that the US, and US business entities in particular, are much more powerful and influential... I remember reading that US congress spend $300 billion to "counter the malign influence of the CCP" ... that is close to what China spent on its military alone in 2022... The US also has a history of buying journalists and waging large internet influence campaigns, among other things... but I haven't seen people calling other people shills or bots for repeated US-talking points... just looking it up now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice
https://cyberscoop.com/meta-blames-u-s-military-for-information-operation/
https://theprint.in/tech/60-80-of-twitter-accounts-posting-on-russia-ukraine-war-bots-90-pro-ukraine-finds-new-study/1114878/Is the Russian propaganda in the room with us right now?
Not in favour of this.
I chose Lemmy.world because I wanted an instance that would federate even with people I might disagree with. If it's illegal and abusive, sure. But to defederate on ideological grounds? I was planning a recurring donation but this makes me consider setting up my own instance.
They're welcome to whatever discussions they want to have on their instance. As long as they respect the rules of other instances when they're here, then everybody wins.
As for their point about dismantling western propaganda - if they have documented sources then let's have a conversation. It's not like there isn't western propaganda
okay this is freaking wild:
We need a sub dedicated to bot building, trolling and brigading effectively. Screw morals, or decency. They’re tools that maintain the status quo.
It's so melodramatic, it sounds like a child's attempt at satire. Like, try saying that out loud and not cringing.
One year ago, and the guy hasn't posted since then. Like ffs guys we had a home turf advantage if any idiot were to do it they would've done it by now, and the best part: they were talking about reddit.
You really will take something as stupid as this to spin it in the most unsincere and negative light you can? Seriously?
Your comment's intent is rather dubious -- why post a quote from Lemmygrad, when the original post was talking about Hexbear? I encourage you to state that your quote is from Lemmygrad within the comment itself, instead of hiding it behind a link.
I find it hilarious that the tankies rail against "maintaining the status quo" but in practice all they do is shit on anyone making actual progress in favour of wanking about some glorious revolution that will never come.
That sounds an awful lot like 'we know we're a minority, so we have to cheat, otherwise it might also look like we are, and that would be unfair! (read: we might be rightfully ignored for our minority opinions)'
One year later and nothing has been done! So much for leftist "organizing"!
Edit: The Leninist downvote brigade continues! Up yours, woke moralists!
I'm gonna come out and say, even with the statement, I'm not in favor of preemptive defederation like this.
I know the admins of an instance are hosting us basically out of the goodness of their own hearts, and I appreciate that. And I understand they can do whatever they want, and we can move to a different instance if we want. I get it.
But I joined .world because I wanted a neutral instance that would connect with pretty much everyone unless they were particularly problematic. Could hexbear be particularly problematic? Sure, maybe. But I think there's a big difference between defederating in response to a problem and defederating in anticipation of a potential problem, especially since the users aren't given a chance to discuss it. Like, I know we're not technically entitled to give our input if we're not admins, but I think it would be nice, y'know?
If it was just some small instance of trolls that's one thing, but hexbear is actually quite a big instance, so this is a very impactful decision. I don't like it being made preemptively behind the scenes like this.
Your desire to "connect with pretty much everyone unless they were particularly problematic" is admirable,. Just remember, please, that the wider the gates are opened, the more idiots wander in and the more work for mods and admins.
After dealing with the first thousand or so idiots, you can smell 'em coming. I'm with the admins on this.
Sure, I'm aware of idiots on the internet, but if we tried to avoid idiots on the site we wouldn't federate with anyone. Lemmy.world is specifically billed as a "generic Lemmy server for everyone to use," I want the gates to be open fairly wide, that's why I'm here. Not for everyone, like I'm glad we defederated with exploding heads, but we still gave them a shot first and there was at least some more community discussion on it before that decision was made. That's what would make me feel a lot better about this.
Non-federation with a CTH-successor certainly makes running a community on lemmy.world more desirable. Back on reddit, before the bannings about 1/3 of mod actions were from TD users, 1/3 were from CTH users, and the last 1/3 was just randos. It's not like CTH was just a regular sub, they were the source of a lot of moderation.
Is joining hexbear an option for you? It's not like we're obligated to only have one account across the lemmyverse.
The more servers we defederate with, the fewer posts will show up in our feeds from everywhere. People aren't going to make an account for everywhere. I'm not particularly sad about this server in particular, but in general the Lemmy.world admin trying to stop people running into content that isn't illegal is annoying and him imposing his ideology on lemmy.world, which paints itself as neutral.
The more servers we defederate with, the fewer posts will show up in our feeds from everywhere. People aren't going to make an account for everywhere. I'm not particularly sad about this server in particular, but in general the Lemmy.world admin trying to stop people running into content that isn't illegal is annoying and him imposing his ideology on lemmy.world, which paints itself as neutral.
Well said.
Like, I know we’re not technically entitled to give our input if we’re not admins, but I think it would be nice, y’know?
Admins not bothering with users' thoughts or opinions is what brought us here from Reddit. I wish they would poll us, even informally, before making these kinds of decisions.
You don’t welcome cancer in to your body because you support all life.
Nazis and Russian trolls are not here to debate or inform. Their sole purpose is to degrade trust in democracy, spread propaganda, and other heinous shit.
Defederation is our only defense and we owe it to users to fight hate and lies.
The thing is that kind of example assumes that it is cancer. Which is something I'm not happy assuming yet, especially without discussion.
Hexbear has over 20k users. I find it hard to believe they're all Russian trolls, or even that most of them are.
A perfectly fair and balanced opinion. It's ultimately up to the admins since they've effective got to clean the mess if it happens, but gauging community sentiment would always be nice
They specifically said they're being trolls and going to brigade tbf.
Seconded
Find another instance? That’s the beauty of the fediverse.
Well yeah, I already said I know that's the go-to if you don't like one instance. But I'd still like to be able to express my opinions before doing that. It's not that big a deal but I'd still ideally rather not, y'know?
The users already made their intentions clear with their instance rules acting as proxy. It’s an aggressive stance and it is not conducive to fair and open conversations about anything.
Well, you picked the wrong instance, then. Lemmy.world never claimed to be neutral. The goals have always been clearly stated, currently here: https://lemmy.world/legal
This is exactly the thought process I went through while reading the post. Doing it preemptively can make it come across like you’re severing the connection due to opinions rather than rule breaking.
But still, THANK YOU to the admins, in general. I am not accusing you of anything negative like that. I trust that you thought it through way more than I did. Thanks for keeping this big general insurance of ours awesome.
I get your argument, but I'm with the admins. It's not like a shop keeper closing their doors because they see someone coming with tattoos and a biker jacket. It's more like they're closing their doors because they heard the person saying they make their living shoplifting and they intend to shoplift in that store. Hexbear stated pretty explicitly that they intend to be a problem. No reason to wait for them to do that.
I'm not really seeing it to be honest. That first bullet point there seems pretty clearly saying to their users to not be a problem so that they don't get defederated.
I'm sure you can find someone calling to brigade such and such on there somewhere but they have over 20 thousand users total. That's a lot of people to rule out.
As always, the limits of tolerance are met when it comes to suggesting we tolerate intolerance. The boundary must be set there.
What the fuck?
I was assured by this server that it has no problem with socialists. This is worse than I expected it to be, I expected a half-hearted attempt to justify this action through means other than "they're socialists and hold socialist views".
To the three points here:
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"Western propaganda" - Is capitalist propaganda. Of course socialists oppose it, we oppose capitalism.
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"Nato" - An anti-nato position is held by literally every single socialist organisation in Europe. You will not find a socialist org with a pro-nato position. Ffs just look at DiEM25's position on this, it's probably the most well known cross-nation alliance of socialist groups and parties in europe including people like Yanis Varoufakis, Jeremy Corbyn and Zizek to name a few but that really doesn't do the size of the DiEM organising alliance justice. Even Noam Chomsky is anti-nato ffs. What the fuck are you doing acting like this is a fringe position not held by a huge number of people over here in Europe and at the forefront of leftist politics on the continent? Taking the position "you're not allowed to be anti-nato" is blatant american imperialism.
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"It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished." - Duh? What the fuck do the liberals running this instance think socialists believe exactly? When Marx calls for revolution do you think that we mean to continue the organisations that existed prior? No, we seek to abolish them and create new socialist organisations that serve the new socialist state we seek to create.
Absolutely mindblowing that this instance ever pretended it was going to play nicely with socialists. I'm disgusted.
Every single take above is also the take you will get from every single socialist community over on reddit. The anarchist communities will also even have an anti-nato position. Like jesus christ. I expected this post to be bad but I didn't expect it to be "Yeah fuck socialists, oh and fuck what anarchists believe too".
I'm flabbergasted that @[email protected] just completely lied about not intending to block based on ideology, and it's extremely telling that Hexbear gets a pre-emptive defederation for this shit while literal actual nazis were a chore to get defederated.
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Why is it wrong to be critical of western propaganda?
Because "critical of western propaganda" is a front for promoting authorianism and intolerance. The "western propaganda" they're critical of include human rights, inclusiveness, social security etc.
This is what I find absolutely crazy. I am, by and large, in agreement with socialists on economic matters. But why do they always support China and Russia? Like wtf? In what world is the genocide being committed against the Uyghur people cool? In what world is banning access to free communication including many of the largest websites worth defending? Why is it ok to lock up gay people? How is aggressively invading a neighbouring country cool? How is threatening to invade a neighbouring independent country (which has been de facto independent for over 70 years) whilst frequently flying your military into their airspace as a form of threat somehow the actions of the good guys?
You can believe in socialist economics without needing to defend the extreme authoritarian nature of countries that pretend as though their economy runs on socialist principles (or worse, which are the explicitly non-socialist successor state to a country that formerly professed to socialism). Tankies make no fucking sense to me.
Every fucking "social security" that exists in the western world was achieved by those of us that wave the red flag ffs. 5 day week? Socialists. Most of your holidays? Socialists. Worker protections? Socialists. The length of your work day? Socialists. Healthcare? Socialists. Eliminating child labour? Socialists. The list goes on and on and on.
And inclusiveness? How the fuck do you work out that the only lemmy that has visible pronouns is not inclusive? 20-30% of the userbase is trans ffs. It's MORE inclusive that this instance which has left transphobic and hateful posts up for many hours at a time on occasion. The post that looked like a relic from r/fatpeoplehate was up for 12 hours before it got taken down.
Gotta say, pre-emptive defederation seems like a bit of an over reaction. There's plenty of leftists in other instances, not just hexbear and lemmygrad. Hell, I'm an anarchist that regularly comments on political/social threads in this instance, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Lemmy in general is pretty obviously far left leaning. I don't see the harm in federating with hexbear, unless they show themselves to be actively harassing or trolling. But you'd have to federate first to find out if they will
What have they actually done?
I'm all for defederating from instances that cause problems but all the quotes above basically seem to say, "I know you want a revolution but you still gotta follow the rules of whatever instance you're posting on."
It's your server so your under no obligation to provide a reason for defederating beyond disagreeing with them but it leaves me wondering if there's anything else or if it's just a matter of disliking them?
Good. I commented earlier about how horrible hexbear was. I signed up for hexbear, hoping to meet leftists, but these are not leftists. They just parrot Chinese/Russian propaganda. They have no original takes, no critical thinking. Call me whatever, but, I'm pro NATO. I don't give a shit about what bullshit propaganda you show me from a totalitarian regime. If the U.S. is bad, then the CCP is pure evil.
I don't mind what the servers admins need to do. But please don't take quotes out of context.
“With the cumulative updates Users may show/hide avatars, show/hide scores, show/hide NSFW content, show/hide read posts, show/hide notifications for new posts, block users, block communities, report direct messages, mods can distinguish a comment to sticky it to the top of a post. Users may set their feed in their account settings to determine if the default feed is local (hexbear.net only), subscribed (user subscribed communities only), or all (all posts on unblocked communities on federated instances).
Hello users of Hexbear in the next couple of weeks (exact date will most likely be somewhere around the 5th of August) we will be taking the site down for approximately three hours to update to lemmy 0.18.3 and begin federation., as we prepare for federation we wanted to create a primer for etiquette when engaging in the fediverse.
Please read and respect the rules of the community instance in which you are posting/commenting. Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated. Realize that you are a representative of the hexbear instance when you post on other instances.
Know that your posts, comments, and DMs involving communities/users of other instances are stored on those instances databases, while delete requests are sent there is no guarantee they will be honored, especially if a different platform is involved (mastodon, etc).
In addition, a reminder that you may set your feed or search to local/subscribed/all and block users/communities to have a greater control over what content you have. Local is Hexbear only, subscribed is communities from hexbear and federated instances that you have specifically subscribed to, and All is hexbear + all federated instances. There will be a pinned post in the !hexbear community where you can nominate instances for our allow-list or block-list.
In closing, I want to remind everyone that the moderation policy of Hexbear communities will not change and will be strictly applied to any users from a federated instance. While we are not responsible for moderation policy of remote communities our admins do see reports you make of posts/comments on federated instances, and we are able to remove them, while not actually deleting the post/comment it does hide it so Hexbear users cannot see/interact with it.”
IDK, I don't think this is the right move at all... The announcement post and the comments you pointed out were cherry-picked and misinterpreted. They are an ideological instance. You wouldn't say
blahaj.zoneis trying to "spread" LGBTQ+ "ideas". They're just a specifically queer instance.Everything Hexbear said was, the way I read it, in the direction of "let's behave and be good with the federation". I think you're just confounding your own ideologies, and the way you think things should be done, with what the community at large wants.
That being said, IDC that much, but I do disagree.
PS: Posting from my
lemm.eeaccount because this post doesn't show up on mylemmy.worldaccount for some reason.it became evident that allowing Hexbear to federate would violate our rules.
For the sake of absolute transparency, and clarity, would you mind specifying exactly what rules would be violated if Hexbear were to be allowed to federate with Lemmy.world?
Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.”
This is a rather assumptive statement. You can only guess that this would happen, and have no tangible proof that it actually would -- the previous quotes that you provided outline your ideological differences, and not proof of conspiracy. You leave out the fact that in the Hexbear post that you linked they are telling their users to behave on other instances. In the quotes that you provided, you, quite conveniently, left out some important contextual information which changes the perceived intent -- the full version of the quotes that you pulled is as follows:
Please read and respect the rules of the community instance in which you are posting/commenting. Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated. Realize that you are a representative of the hexbear instance when you post on other instances.
While, yes, I agree that this is a rather uncouth way to word an official statement to the members of an instance, it shows quite the opposite for intent to spread harm to other instances.
In addition, several comments from a Hexbear admin, demonstrate that instance rules will not be respected.
Here are some examples:
“I can assure you there will be no lemmygrad brigades, that energy would be better funneled into the current war against liberalism on the wider fediverse.”
“All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.”
Your point here makes little sense to me. If anything, the examples that you just provided state otherwise. These quotes do not prove intent to cause harm on other instances through rule breaking. Your argument seems to be founded purely on an ideological difference.
I have no issue at all with defederating with an instance if they are obviously harmful to the fediverse on the whole -- instances that promote spam, trolling, brigading, etc; however, hexbear, from what I see in the linked official post, shows no evidence of such intent. All I see is difference in ideology.
Great points! Just realized they posted this with the generic admin account, they aren't reading a single comment in this post lol
This is entirely reasonable to me. I don't believe there is any good reason to federate with instances that are intending to astroturf, censore dissenting information, and peddle propoganda. You can see their vote brigading in a post on c/fediverse discussing this situation.
Federating with such instances does more harm than good, providing an audience for propoganda aimed at fomenting extreme perspectives thru deviant misinformation and content/narrative control.
Creating those kind of fringe echo-chamer instances is how we end up with toxic and extreme groups like SRS and incels or the donald (on reddit). They can even start out as satire and then quickly devolve into toxic hate.
The argument that we want a diverse fediverse doesn't mean that we should federate with toxic instances with bad intentions. That's not the kind of diversity that we should be promoting. That's the kind of toxic userbase that should be quarantined...
Defederating instances on ideological grounds isn't a bad idea IMHO, and I can see why people might not want their feeds to end up full of people who just sort of assume that what we're here to do is use facts and logic to destroy western propaganda, with the goal of bringing about the downfall of the International Monetary Fund. That sounds like an extremely tiring project to be involved in; you wouldn't want to hang out with somebody who does that in every thread.
But I think it's important for the reason here to be that Hexbear is embarking on a project of ideological warfare. Not that the community consensus there is that the IMF is a bad idea. A load of communists is probably fine, while a load of evangelical communists determined to exactly follow the letter of every rule while maximizing the amount that they can evangelize is probably not fine.
I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased, being a poster over on chapo.chat (or Hexbear as it's now [embarrassingly] called), but I hope those of you who support decision can at least understand how frustrating the purported justification is. The notion that hexbear has a consistent ideology to push beyond general amorphic leftism doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, so in the end the decision to defederate just comes down to "these people have opinions".
There are surely some decent people on Hexbear, the problem is that there are a lot that are not, and many have explicitly stated that they want to disrupt other instances. And the final nail in the coffin is IMHO that the admins on Hexbear have explicitly stated that they will not moderate their users for things they do on other instances (making the "be a good neighbor" part in their original announcement a fig leaf at best).
The entire point of decentralized moderation in the fediverse is that instances are responsible for their member's conduct on other instances. Any instance that explicitly violates this (as Hexbear admins openly say) needs to be defederated as they actively harm the network.
the problem is that there are a lot that are not, and many have explicitly stated that they want to disrupt other instances
It might seem that way but I don't actually think this extends much beyond young posters getting hyped up about how leftist they are, in the same way a 17 year old newly converted atheist is going to be mildly obnoxious to interact with in any online space.
explicitly stated that they will not moderate their users for things they do on other instances
See I saw that but I actually read it the other way; there's a lot of dumb ways to run afoul of moderation on hexbear, not liking vegans, complaining about certain users, just relatively easy to catch a ban for totally asinine stuff. So I took that to mean that they weren't going to hold everyone to account for hexbears code of conduct outside of hexbear spaces, so I wouldn't catch a ban over there for talking about the logical incoherence of certain arguments for veganism here.
I can't imagine they mean to say they're willing to serve as a home base for disruptive and rule-breaking behavior on other instances, and they should absolutely be willing to impose bans for that (at the threat of defederating if not), and if they are saying that they should clearly reconsider, but I still think we should give these systems the opportunity to actually develop as opposed to preemptively siloing us all. lemmy.world admins should open up a dialogue with hexbear ones to see if there is some path forward if they actually do have considers that aren't just ideological disagreements.
I echo the dissatisfaction people have with this and won't be donating again. This is Lemmy.world not Lemmy.(we need a safe space from the communists)
The fact you were upset about Beehaw's defederation but then turn around and do this is massive hypocrisy.
This is you imposing your personal ideology on your users. The fact you lead with those 3 "concerning statements" tells us everything. You only like free speech when it aligns with your own beliefs.
Shame.
I don't have any idea of who they are, but I don't get it: we're not preemptively defederating from Meta because it would be closed minded to do so (as per your admin decision), while Meta bad behavior is well documented (they've been fined by EU several times already), and we want to preemptively defederate from these people without even knowing how they will actually behave? Why? Shouldn't they be "innocent until proven guilty"?
wait, so it really is just ideological? Like, y'all don't ban users who come into lemmygrad to specifically troll communists on ideological grounds, but when hexbear tells its users to engage in good faith you defed them? what the hell?
Edit: Like honestly this is kinda gross, they specifcally try and smooth things out and make things easier for your admins so you don't have to deal with a flood of hexbear users spamming PPB everywhere and you just use it as evidence to defederate lol
Tells their users to follow the rules = it's a ruse, they're trolls
Tells their users to troll = see, they're trolls!
Says nothing = they aren't even trying to stop their users from trolling
This is what we call an unfalsifiable orthodoxy.
I don’t really have a problem with the main post you linked to. Are we a strictly pro-NATO server or something? I think I’m missing exactly what the issue is 🤷♂️
Are we a strictly pro-NATO server or something?
As of this post, yes apparently.
Personally I would not want to engage with any community that shares opinions like "the Russian invasion of Ukraine actually may be a good thing".
Me too
Are we a strictly pro-NATO server or something?
Functionally, yes.
I hope so
Disappointing as fuck. You're defedarating based on ideological differences and a guess that they won't engage in good faith? And you're reaching that paltry conclusion after cherry picking posts?
Not to mention the posts you've shared aren't bad at all? They're literally asking their users to engage properly in a civil manner.
Big yikes man.
So communists are not welcome on lemmy.world or what? What even is a Hexbear? How different is this move from when Elon decided to reinstate every banned account apart from Alex Jones'? How thin is the skin of lemmy.world mods? What's the point of censorship on this platform? I can go to Reddit and Twitter if I want protection from communist ideologies??
Being in favor or support of the status quo is also pushing an ideology.
So preemptively defederating from Meta (literally Evil Corp, that backed genocide and fascism) is not okey, but doing the same with communists is.
I'm starting to get a feel of what Lemmy World really is.
I'm a bit new to the fediverse and I came to lemmy.world because it's one of the big ones and thought it would be "neutral". But nothing quoted in this post seems dangerous or against the rules ? You don't even explain what rules they are supposedly breaking ? It's weird that the admins posted this thinking "people will understand". All you are saying is "these people are from the left", we don't like them.
You should clearly states in your rules/description that you are a neoliberal instance and contradictory opinions will be squashed.
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of hexbear.net, or a fellow traveler?"
Not a big fan of cherry-picking posts and comments to pre-emptively defederate because of opposing ideals.
This opinion comes from knowing nothing at all about hexbear prior to this post.
What a disappointingly reactionary approach to federation.
If this was a specific-purpose non-politics instance like many are, I'd say power to you. But for an general-purpose instance that advertises itself as being:
A generic Lemmy server for everyone to use.
Lemmy.world is a general-purpose Lemmy instance of various topics, for the entire world to use.
...then there's a need for some serious self-examination. Preemptively blocking thousands of users, and talking about blocking another long-lasting substantial community because some other community made comments about them? This is disappointing, this does not sound properly thought-out.
You're right, defederation should only be considered as a last resort. Not as a broad-spectrum discriminatory first action.
I'm not sure where "global communism" and "fascist state headed by Vladimir Putin" intersect, but it sure ain't anywhere sane. Defederation from the Lemmygrad school of insanity seems like a grand old time.
It’s more like “the enemy of my enemy is a friend.” We don’t love the Russian Federation and would rather the Soviet Union still existed.
The reason we have critical support to Russia at all is because the United States empire throws a coup in your country any time you go against their interests (see Euromaidan in Ukraine).
Think of it like how the US and the Soviet Union were temporarily allied to fight the common enemy of the Nazis.
Still doesn't make a lot of sense to me, nor to a lot of other people. Ukraine doesn't have the right to decide their country wants to join NATO? Russia wants oil or a buffer so innocent Ukrainian citizens get to die? It's not innocent Russians dying, because they are the aggressor in this case. They are being the US here, like the US was in Iraq. They interfere in just as many elections, have oligarchs, so much corruption, etc. But because they're not the West, they're the good guys?
But while I still don't agree with that lemmygrad's strange, hypocritical takes, I still don't agree with defederating (with them or hexbear). Defederating should be a last resort in my opinion.I don't want echo chambers. Talk to people or ban the troublesome ones. Hopefully improved mod tools released one day helps with all this defederating.
I'm from lemmy.ml, so I shouldn't really have a say in this matter, but I just wanted to give some of my thoughts.
There's no problem in defederating from instances. However, I'm a bit confused by the reasoning given for the defederation. The points highlighted appear to simply be some normal leftist and anti-imperialist ideas, and I fail to see how it signifies intent to violate the rules of the lemmy.world instance (besides maybe point 7, if we were to consider supporting governments deemed "authoritarian" by the west as also being the same as calling for the opression for the people those governments are accused of oppressing (Which I don't believe is valid reason since that's simply not the case. For example, people who reject the idea that there is a campaign against the uyghur ethnic group in China, generally don't do so because they hate that ethnic group, but because they believe the claims are false)).
If leftist instances such as hexbear are problematic, I don't see why instances like lemmy.ml aren't, whose description some time ago was the following:
A community of leftist privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers
Some time ago they removed the word «leftist» in the description, but very much still allow people who hold similar beliefs as the ones you highlighted to use the instance and to express themselves.
What a spez move. Pre-emptively de-federating is just a bad move, no other way to look at it. They're a very diverse group and generally much kinder than most lemmy users. At the very least you should've tested federation for a day or two to see how the interactions play out. But anybody here can go over there and see for themself how nice they can be even when disagreeing, which they do a lot among themselves.
Also where in the Code of Conduct does it say the only ideology allowed is liberalism? Going the way of Reddit with vague justifications and arbitrary decisions will make the administration a lot of profit some day, but there's a reason people left that one.
Ok, I'm out of here. This is my last post on lemmy.world. I created a new account in a server that (hopefully) does not use defederation for political reasons.
I'm just sorry that I donated here.
As an instance owner myself some of this is concerning. I understand why lemmy.world would want to defederate from them. I won't defederate on my instance at this point, but if personal attacks start to happen or rules get broken, then it will be considered.
Let me ask you a question: if an instance popped up that said their purpose was to collect child porn, would you wait until you saw some child porn before defederating? What about something more mild, like if their mission was to dox and harass climate activists?
I think the exception to defederating being a last resort is when you have an instance that says upfront that they are going to be a problem. In that case, I think we should believe them.
I've defederated from lemmynsfw.com because someone subscribed to them and I saw the pornography on my instance and that is against one of the site rules. The same would be said for any other pornography or breaking of site rules no matter where it came from. At this point though, hexabear have not harassed anybody on my instance or broken any of the site rules, so there is no basis to defederate them. If that does happen, then a decision will be made.
Hexbear is for left-unity and has users that range from all spectrums of the left. The clear message here is, if your on the left, lemmy.world is not the place for you. If you support the free exchange of ideas, lemmy.world is not the place for you. The mods couldn’t even be bothered to lie about which rules hexbear users were supposedly going to violate.
People are way too quick to defederate. Let the users use the platform and ban them if they break rules. Arguing isn't against the rules as far as I'm aware as long as it's in the right threads. You think this is going to keep users out? No its just going to drive then to another instance
At least on other instances, they may be subject to more stringent moderation. It's easy to say "just ban them" when you're not the one who will have to manage all 20000 of them.
If you want to be the largest instance you are going to need to be able to deal with the moderation requirements. Many platforms have millions of users.
Its illogical to think they are going to break any rules. That is an assumption being made with no evidence. The post specifically says respect the rules of the instance you are posting on. Believe it or not posting anti nato arguments in the right thread is not trolling.
Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons.
Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons.
Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons.
a last resort. preemptively defederate
a last resort. preemptively defederate
a last resort. preemptively defederate
a last resort. preemptively defederate
I guess lemmy.world really is like reddit.
This makes me feel pretty good about my decision to choose lemmy.world as my first instance. There is zero reason to believe Hexbear users will engage in good faith, in fact, the evidence presented in this statement clearly illustrates that they intend to troll and generally derail discussions. Preemptive defederation in this case is the prudent move. Keep up the good work, Admins.
Not a lemmy.world user, so just sharing my thoughts/ideas on this at a general level
- Mutual Respect Pacts --- Could instances not federate by agreeing to moderate their own users that breach the other instance's CoCs/rules? For example. Lemmy.world finds a hexbear user to have breached lemmy.world rules. Temporarily bans them from the community and reports it to hexbear. Hexbear are expected to act against this user (either with a warning, temporary ban etc). And of course vice versa. Obviously, should the situation become unworkable, more drastic action can take place, but it seems like a reasonable approach to trying to retain federation between groups that might not see eye to eye but want to work out a way to remain civil with each other.
- Foyers for engagement --- Some here seem to have problems with the loss of lemmy.world's apparent "neutrality" in defederating from hexbear. However one feels about lemmy.world ... having a space in which ideologically opposed people can engage in civil and well moderated interaction is still valuable. Maybe an instance dedicated to politically/ideologically diverse/broad federation but strict civility requirements would be valuable. A kind of foyer or public square in which you can seek out diverse and controversial opinions. Lemmy.world doesn't need to be that for it to exist on the fediverse. And such a space living on a dedicated instance with its own approach to (de-)federation would probably make sense.
- Community management as a user --- While defederation is part of life on the fediverse, the management of communities as a user does get somewhat more complex with more fracturing. The platform can probably help, with user defined multi-communities and sorting algorithms that surface posts from smaller communities.
- Self hosting --- Self hosting is the direct way to opt-out of another person's admin choices. Spacehost is providing managed hosting for lemmy (and soon many other fediverse platforms) (see also the core dev's mastodon account). Generally, IMO, single-user entities will make more sense over time on the fediverse. Of course, if you have the skills, you can just do it yourself.
“The West’s role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”
“These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term “rules-based international order.” It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”
Well these are totally true and the decision quite disappointing.
I read this mostly like "they seem like a bunch of assholes so we're defederating so we don't have to interact with a bunch of assholes". Cause the folks on Hexbear seem intense compared to lemmygrad, etc. I know it's really the anti-NATO stuff, but eh.
I don't like not getting content though, so I'm really not in favor of this move. But I'm also an ex-redditor who liked to lurk communities I don't agree with since it's not like the comments are going to jump out and get you. (Of course, as an American I think I get hit by more far right than far left, though they agree on some of the weirdest conspiracy shit sometimes).
Also it's not like I can't have multiple accounts across the fediverse, lol.
These comments are wild. At the end of the day, if we really dislike the actions of our instance, we can just change to a different one, or self host. Does it suck? Yes.
I don't think I can reasonably expect someone else to tailor their own instance that they created and paid for to my specific interests. A previous instance wasn't to my liking, so I just made a new account somewhere else. Isn't that supposed to be the whole point?
"If everyone defederates with everyone there will be no content". Well, it's a good thing that it's not everyone defederating with everyone.
I think that maybe the people who are really upset about defederating should try to host their own instances and act as admins for those instances. I totally understand wanting to do your own thing with the amount of time and effort that stuff requires.
Personally? I'm still pleasantly suprised/happy that so many people have created instances that they opened to the world. I also feel lucky that people are putting in a lot of effort to make places that anyone -even complete strangers- could join. I'm happy that there are a wide variety of instances.
I think it's important to make note of the fact that they were banned on Reddit for good reason. As a community, they have always been toxic and would consistently brigade and harass other communities on Reddit that even remotely disagreed with them on anything. There was a consistent issue in Jewish focused Reddit subs with users of theirs starting fights about Zionism on random Jewish posts and generally harassing to random people that would be remotely critical of communism. They would behave in a similar way to how exploding-heads did prior to being mass defederated, specifically going into threads and brigading/downvoting and attempting to sway discussions in their favor in bad faith.
wtf, they banned them for the John Brown posting, not brigading. Also CTH was full of bernie bros, are you thinking of MoretankieChapo?
I for one think John Brown did nothing wrong. Would you please clarify your stance on defending slaveowners' right to life, as was the Reddit admins' reasoning?
I think it’s important to make note of the fact that they were banned on Reddit for good reason
Reddit is an echo chamber. Being banned there is not indicative of anything.
Ignoring the fact that most complaining here are likely members of that instance, I don't understand users' insistence that they shouldn't be defederated. Are most ignoring the numerous examples of Reddit subs users inferred "likely won't be a big deal" becoming obviously problematic down the line, with the inevitable ban/quarantine occuring with most upset it wasn't dealt with from the start?
I am also unsure about lemmygrad, as although I dislike the instance, (and a few parts of db0 as well) I do agree with defederation being an extreme option.
unrelated note
I am concerned about the defederation system as a whole, as an instance could defederate with all but the most extreme left/right wing instances, causing an extreme echo chamber to develop. (albeit only on lemmy)
Edit: Nevermind, I looked into it more and I support defederating Lemmygrad.
Also, you linked a post from a year ago, from a user who hasn't even posted in a year? are you serious?
It's always difficult. On the one hand it's not great to de-federate based on political opinion. After all, I'd have no issues with these people posting memes and other content, adding non-political insight in non-political communities, and even discussing politics in political communities. An echo chamber doesn't really help anyone after all. However, these people seem to actively look down on anyone even slightly more right wing as them, and as shown in the examples they also seem likely to aggressively push their views in places where that would not be appreciated. To me defederation seems like the good call, at least temporarily, to ensure that moderators won't have their hands full. But it would be nice to see at least attempts to federate with these extremists, just to give them a chance to play nice. It would be better in the grand scheme of the fediverse to keep things as connected as possible and to avoid echo chambers.
I guess I'm back at join-lemmy.org to find a new instance. Any recommendations?
Lemmy.world, you are positively glowing right now :3
It never ceases to amaze me how threatened liberals are by tiny groups of commies. And of course, the fact that a bunch of liberals are busy denigrating the very commies that made their migration away from capitalist Reddit possible in the first place is, unfortunately, very par for the course for liberals.
Not a fan of this defederation - I wanted to at least have fun dunking on them
There's a difference between liberal left (which is what a majority of rational, secular people belive in), honest far-left, which is about socialist economics, eat the rich, BLM/anti-racism, anti-cop, gender abolition, human rights, actual anti-colonialism etc. and the kind of "far-left" that is "anti-west", which isn't really about honestly discussing these issues, but rather about dividing people, being contrarian to established things that work and make sense, and trying to paint everyone who disagrees even a tiny bit as the scum of humanity. On the other hand, any defederation further enlarges the rift between communities and makes being informed on what others think more cumbersome. Also, they think Beehaw, a place that is supposed to be inclusive, is fascist? I am not sure how it is. It's mostly left and liberal, really.
I respect the autonomy of you admins to federate with who you choose, but as a user, I would prefer not to defederate, and let the votes moderate their 'contributions'. And, of course, defederate if there are too many rule breakers and/or bots. But I also realize the potential hassle this could pose for you admins, so I sympathize with your decision even if I'm not in complete agreement.
Zero fucking tolerance.
None.
It’s shit like this that fucks a place up.
Get a grip.
y'all are incredibly embarassing
You are being illogical. You claim that Hexbear will not respect instance rules, yet the linked post on Hexbear has their admins explicitly begging their users to respect other servers' rules. The truth is that you do not want a large quantity of users with heterodox opinions mingling with your own. This is why you block Hexbear but not the smaller Lemmygrad. Instead, I suggest you add to your Code of Conduct that lemmy.world is an anti-communist server and will not tolerate Marxist-Leninists. That way you will no longer be hypocritical, and you will probably also make a lot of your users happy!
edit: I see I am being downvoted - clearly by Leninists angry that I suggest a divorce! However, your emotions will not silence my pure logic!
I don’t think it’s the opinions, I think it’s the users’ literal stated plans to harass users of other instances.
Users can be banned, and if it's a persistent and draining issue for admins after a couple weeks then defederation would actually be understandable.
Wow, I've been on lemmy for a month after Sync died and now I'm already seeing the start of its demise. I haven't heard of Hexbear before and don't really have interest in it, but pre-emptive defeterating is a bit much. I don't think it's good for the fediverse either. It'll probably end up renamed to clique - verse.
Defederation is happening based on Hexbear's potential comments and behavior when there are some absolutely unhinged lemmyworld comments in this very thread.
- Responding to hard hitting questions like "Have you read Karl Marx?" with "fuck off"
- Accusing anyone "defending" China or Russia of being paid by China and Russia ala the George Soros conspiracy weirdos
- Hexbears are all "nutjobs that justify terrorism"
- Being presented with a study showing a higher quality of life in socialist countries gets "you are full of shit and a fucking moron, get fucked" and "you lot are brain-dead" and "Do you practice being this stupid or does it come naturally" and "bootlickers"
- an incredibly racist remark about Chinese people "are not fucking yellow anyway" (link was borked and comments aren't working)
But it's Hexbear that "wants to be douches."
Good call
Ffs! This going to be an Enlightened Centrist instance?
It's one thing to defederate from an anti-imperialist instance that's specifically intended for trolling including with coordinated bot attacks, but another to shun one of the biggest instances on Lemmy just because you disagree with their ideology!
I'm not a fan of tankies myself (especially since they're hypocrites who would denounce western imperialism in one sentence and defend USSR/Christofascist current Russia imperialism in the next, but IMO, defederating from them reeks of censorship of ideas rather than consequences of/defence against actions.
Politics ruining everything again
This is too quick of a movement towards defederation. Except in the most extreme of circumstances, it should be up to individual users whether they want to engage with other communities, and users can always block communities they find objectionable. It is not in the best interest of users to treat them as being incapable of making their own reasoned decisions about this kind of thing.
Fortunately, thanks to the wonders of the fediverse, I can just make a new account on a different instance and start engaging with Lemmy that way. Anyone have any recommendations on alternatives to lemmy.world?
Their instance also seems to be offline.
The URL is https://hexbear.net. They haven’t federated yet.
I would like to thank everyone who came to lemmy.world and ended up recreating Reddit, warts and all. Looking forward to your announcement to kill 3rd party apps next week.
I don't think this is the right way to go if another Server advice's its users to engage with everybody else on the fediverse in the best manner. The point here picked only seem to reflect the world views of the admin which cant be discussed or challenged. I guess this is fine because everybody can search for another server but if the server team here cares about its users opinions I'd like to voice my disagreement and would love to have this decision maybe put up to a vote / test period or something similar. Even If I will switch to another instance, thank you for providing this server.
Stopping by this thread to offer a window into the Hexbear response to this statement. This thread is all serious and miserable, but we're having a great time over there laughing about all of this and dunking on the worst of the comments.
Edit: Oh and also here and here.
PS: I am absolutely loving the downvoting, it's hilariously cute; I legit can't stop giggling right now
I'd love to see Lemmygrad cut off, it's full of propaganda and malicious users.
I don't understand why Lemmy is constructed in a manner where instances are automatically federated with other instances by default. Wouldn't it make more sense, from a security standpoint, to change that so instances are automatically defederated with all other instances by default?
Thats like creating a new social media account where you are automatically friends with everyone else, and you have to selectively remove people as they become problems.
It would be safer, but would also then require instance admins to go actively seek out new instances to federate with, which would make it harder for new spaces to grow.
I certainly agree it could be more difficult to grow, but the cost of slower growth to keep nefarious actors from "infecting" instances may be a good tradeoff, IMO.
Of course, I don't know all the details, and can only comment on my own knowledge of how Lemmy works, which may be wrong. But I would imagine that such a system, whereby instances are federated by default, would not be in the best interests of instance hosters or end users.
Lemmy wouldn't grow the same way if this was the case. You would have a handful of servers, all "approved" by someone else to join the network. It wouldn't at all be the same feeling of community run servers.
The problem you are experiencing now is again because of the size of Lemmy.world. People care about what they are deciding about hexbear because they are so big. If they were a smaller instance, people would have lots of other large instances to choose from.
They do have choices still but since like 95% of the communities are on Lemmy.world, it has become a big centralized network now. If you don't federate with Lemmy.world today, you won't see much content.
Lemmy is a bit shit, isn't it. That's a shame.
If opposition to Western propaganda and Western imperialism is against your rules, it's certainly your right to defederate. I made the right choice jumping ship from .world back when you refused to preemptively defederate from Threads!
Good. Fuck tankies, lmao
On the one hand defederating from an instance based on their ideology is probably not the best precedent to set,
On the other, they're tankies who've ate up the state capitalist and red fascist propaganda hook, line, and sinker and are trying to associate themselves with leftism, making the rest of us look bad. (If I were more conspiracy minded I'd say that this is an intentional attempt to discredit leftist politics.) So really I think it balances out. Personally I'd rather users be able to block whole instances, instead of having admins make that decision, but seeing as that's not available this is the next best thing.
Based move
good decision. do not want the red fash to spread to other instances
Hexbear servers gonna see some Ukrainian drones into the window soon.
Why would they do that? Ukraine’s military is so desperate that they’re literally using cluster munitions
What does that make the Russian military for using them first?
