Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
The problem is a lot of people don't differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i've seen some straight up 'they had it coming' style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
But that's how politics work nowadays. You need to assume that every group is homogenous and when someone from that group points out that it isn't, you call them a hypocrite.
No child is to blame about any of this. And when I think about this (i'm sorry) very stupid conflict, all I can think is people killing children because of land. FUCKING DIRT. Not a specific people, just people, humans, killing children becuase a piece o land, that to be fair it fits everyone! That is of a stupidity that I can not fathom
What are you talking about? I know Jewish people that openly condemn the behavior of their gov. A person is good or bad depending on their actions - you cannot lump everyone together based on whatever characteristics you want and after that starting a genocide campaign.
The festival goes were just normal people like you and me that were trying to live and enjoy life. Same with the innocent people that are dying in Gaza.
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from a Jewish person. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent (e.g. BBC, Guardian, etc), but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
It’s also quite reassuring (as a fairly ignorant outside observer who is only beginning to learn the tiniest bit about the complex and bloody history of this region) to hear that not every Jewish person or every Israeli likes the way that the state is developing.
Edit: I made some language changes because upon re-reading the parent comment I realised that the poster didn’t actually say whether they lived in Israel or not and I had made a faulty assumption.
IDK about the person you're responding to, but
who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
There are a lot of Jews that don't fit into either of those categories. Ethnic and cultural Jewish people that don't practice or believe in Judaism as a religion are very common. I call myself Jewish, because my mother and my grandmother are Jewish, but I don't practice the religion. I'd recommend googling Jewish Atheism and Jewish Secularism for more info.
You cannot separate Zionism from the formation of the state of Israel and how the history of the conflict has been shaped since.
In order to obtain a more holistic perspective of the conflict people need to know about Zionism, it’s history, and how it currently affects Israeli leadership.
There are still people alive on both sides that lived through Zionist conflicts with the British Mandate and the Nakba.
Literally kicked Bibi out, and he got back into power. It's crazy.
Many of the Comments I had to read on Lemmy.ml were like „Israelian Civilians deserved that Terror attack“ so make of that what you like.
I'm one of the Israelis who frequently attended the anti-government protest.
I expect you not to support the Israeli government, but to support the Israeli people's right to defend ourselves from terrorists.
Regardless of whether Israel has a right wing or left wing government, we will not allow thousands of us to be massacred.
We won't stand by and twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next Hamas attack to kill more of us without responding with our full force.
None of this contradicts the fight to end the occupation. You can be anti-Hamas and anti-occupation at the same time.
Nuance is possible!
I would say isreal has a right to defend itself, but not if they keep stealing land and oppressing the people who attack them.
If you want to defend yourself, first, you have to stop attacking the people who you claim to be defending against.
Hamnas is human garbage, but one can not separate the creation of Israel from the ghettoizing of the Palestinian people.
Nobody deserves terrorist attacks, but this didn't come out of the blue.
Isreal needs to own up to it's complicity in the violence before they try to claim to be the sole victims of it.
Could you elaborate on the “zionist” thing? I haven’t really followed the Israel situation (I tried, but it’s just so complicated). What I heard, is that “zionist” is used when talking about the Israel activity in “taking” territory from the surrounding area, is that correct or did I just misunderstand? If I’m not wrong, then what happens when people start going on about it?
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take. The Zionist movement worked very hard to establish a colony in the middle east, in an area where they knew there were already natives and those natives were hostile to being colonized. It's impossible to truly study the founding of Israel without learning about the Zionist movement.
This isn't about religion, or even very much about race. It's about the powerful asserting their will over the powerless. To some extent you could argue that the Zionists were used by the British to screw over the Arabs, but that doesn't make the Zionists innocent.
Equating discussions of Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the Israeli propaganda playbook for dismissing all criticism of Israel's founding.
People should really stop conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately it's very common and even part of the official classifications used by some countries. To me it seems obvious that this is another attempt to cut off any criticism of the state of Israel by labeling critics as anti-Semitic. Here's an interesting read about how flawed that logic is:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Nothing lemmy.world loves more than bagging on the *.ml instance, so I'm going to take a wild guess at the latter. If it was self-referential "Me looking at all the antisemitism on lemmy.world" it never would have received this much positive attention.
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Often it's real antisemitism, yeah
I'm a big proponent of understanding folk better. Zionism is one of those terms with subtext. Acquaintances I know who use it (some of whom I can believe not understanding the subtext) do a better job explaining that they don't support ethnostates rather than they don't support zionism.
But to be fair my experience is mostly people half a globe away trying to look like they're staying current and relevant in the news and trying to show sympathy with people they view as oppressed and hurt, without taking the time to truly dig into the history of the conflict and having never even heard the word intifada. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt while sharing with them the tiny bit I've learned. They do the same for me. We've got a wide variety of views at one of my lunch groups and it's phenomenal.
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he'd have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don't condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn't trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
I'm extremely curious what you see as the complete history.
I don't see how European guilt for allowing a genocide excuses another.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people. Netanyahu's government is a monster with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Palestinians and people of Muslim faith are fine and nice people. Hamas leadership are monsters with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
This is probably the only time I will agree with the "both sides" take on this. My view on this is that it doesn't mean I agree with killing innocents though. People at the top doing terrible things is no reason to condemn a whole people who very likely had little say in the matter.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people.
The current state of the Israeli government and the intense fascist impulse driving its leaders to genocide would suggest "the average (enfranchised) Israeli" is maybe not as fine or as nice as we'd like to believe.
Engaging with any kind of online community of Israelis feels like I'm stepping into a Der Sturmer article, what with all the intense hate and vitriol aimed at virtually any non-Israeli.
Hamas leadership are monsters
Who, specifically, in Hamas leadership is a monster? Name some names. Is it the head of UNWRA? The chief physician at the Al-Shifa Hospital? The press editor at Al Jaazera magazine? The folks working at the World Central Kitchen?
Because I've heard all of these organizations are hosting Hamas leadership. I've yet to hear anything else about them that explains why they deserved to die, other than that they're "Hamas Leadership" and "Hamas Leadership are monsters".
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad from this article, who can talk a big talk from the safety of outside Palestine and ignore their people's suffering.
I don't give a rats' ass about Israel's lies and deception calling everyone and anyone that disagrees with their genocidal tactics as a Hamas sympathizer. Yeah and I'm of the stance that Israeli has had no business being in there for months and are actively commiting genocide, killing a massive excess of civilians and disrupting humanitarian aid.
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine who are equally blind to Palestinian suffering for a higher cause as the Israeli extremist government is.
I'm a Jew and pretty sensitive to antisemitism, even dogwhistles. I admit I don't go to lemmy.ml very often, but from what I've seen from lemmy.ml posters posting on lemmy.world, there's been no antisemitism at all. In fact, I have not seen any antisemitism from anyone here that I can recall, which is pretty amazing in and of itself.
Opposition to Israel's genocidal regime is not antisemitism.
If this had been Reddit, I'd have bought credits to award you a gold star.
Hold on a second..
Thank you!
Given the current state of the website and its admins, that might constitute a bigger act of antisemitism than anything lemmy.ml mods are up to.
Yeah. I am really sick of seeing the argument that any condemnation of the government of Israel is anti-Semitic. It has nothing to do with them being Jewish and everything to do with how they have handled that conflict over the years.
Go actually look at the .ml worldnews community. There is full mask off "death to Israel" shit all over the place.
Judaism is not Zionism and vice versa
I thougnt at this point everyone understands that state N is not Nians.
You should go to Indonesia and feel the anti Jew from the second you land. 🤭
Mind that the antisemitism always comes from Muslims, non Muslims would do nothing
Criticizing. Israel. Is. Not. Anti-semitism.
Is criticizing Saudi Arabia "Islamophobia"?
I agree...It's a tense situation but words have meaning. Anti-Netanyahu does not mean Antisemitism.
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism.
Some people wants every body human rights to be respected, and dennounce crimes against humanity that Israel and Hamas commits, one being an alleged country and the other a terrorist organization.
The right for self determination of Palestinians (and to live) is not being respected by Israel, so, with confidence I will say Free Palestine!
What's funny is that Palestinians are literally Semitic
Dumbass comment. Thanks!
Zionism became a thing when antisemitism was really bad.
Israel became a thing when antisemitism went over itself and even casual antisemites looked in horror at what Nazis had done.
The Palestinian problem today is nested within centuries of the problem of antisemitism, coiling around and biting itself in the tail.
So tell me what „Anti-Zionism“ means exactly in your opinion.
Anti-Zionism Opposition to Jewish ethnonationalism
Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism. Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine – the biblical Land of Israel – was flawed or unjust in some way.
- wikipedia
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionIf one disagrees or opposes one, they don't oppose the other. I know that Israel has managed to spin the narrative that Israel and Judaism are the same and everyone opposing the state is basically the same kind of hateful asshole Adolf was, but that's just not true. We here in Germany have struggled a long time with that for obvious reasons. You couldn't call out Israel for doing wrong shit without being called a Nazi. In that past that is. What you've seen isn't "Antisemitism". It's opposition to some of the bullshit Israel is pulling that is the very same kind of bullshit Jews have been subjected to in the past. Or tell me: What's the difference between a Ghetto in 1700s Germany and the Gaza Strip? Correct, the 1700s Ghetto had less travel restrictions.
There is a great push in Israel to be proud of the history of unjust oppression and prosecution Jews have suffered for centuries and how awful being a victim of that was. There is this sense that together, as a nation, they finally have the means to safeguard themselves against shit like that. Yet, that very same nation pulls a swift 180 when it comes to palestinians. Pushing them back into Ghettos, depriving them of any form of economical way out, depriving them of means to get their own electricity, their own water. Paying them pittances for their jobs, restricting travel for them whenever possible. Now, as soon as those people act hostile (go figure), the "state of the oppressed" Israel responds with the military. "A little bombardment will keep them in check, right? How dare they hate us?!"
If the message all the Shoa museums, all the graveyards for the people killed in atrocities was really understood, neither the "West Bank" nor the "Gaza Strip" could exist without Israelites acting up against them.
Rant over.
I agree with your conclusions but it's an oversimplification to say
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionThose things are very tied together, partially because no, Judaism is not just a religion. It's a culture and ethnicity as well. And given the history of how/why Israel exists, it's in the unique position of not just being any ole state.
This comment thread is an absolute fucking joke. You're all dumb as absolute fuck.
Both sides of this conflict are pieces of shit. There is no side "to blame." This conflict has been going on for about 100 years and both sides have committed human rights violation and heinous acts of violence.
If you actually want to blame someone, blame the fucking British and the Americans for manipulating both the zionists and the Palestinians to help win the world wars, and for promising them both the same land.
You're all wasting your time trying to to blame Israel or Palestine. Don't be so fucking lazy people. Read a god damn history book rather than basing your opinions on social media. Jesus...
Guilty Killing civilians: Hamas, Israeli government.
Guilty of Genocide: Israeli government
People who don't deserve to get killed: Palestine civilians, Israeli civilians.
People who have claims to the land: both Palestine civilians and Israeli civilians (sorry the situation is fucked).
Fascist and helping each other gain power: Hamas, Netanyahu
Israel has been boxing in the Palestinians for those 100 years, slowly choking them out and forcibly removing them from their homes. Now, multiple generations later, millions of Palestinians are backed into a small corner of their ancestral land as they are still forcibly removed from their homes and murdered in the streets. This is a genocide... like it has been for the last 100 years. Israelis are the invading force. Why wouldn't the Palestinians fight back? Innocent people died, but that doesn't give the Zionists the all clear to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.
blame the fucking British and the Americans
None of the ones who made those decisions are alive anymore. Are you going to dig up their coffins and shout at the corpses?
You make some good points though. However, we can absolutely blame actors at play today for things that are happening today. Hamas committed atrocities, now Israel is going in heavy handed and exacerbating the situation. Not sure why people find it difficult to state that. Hatred, I assume.
This is where I'm at. I'll admit I don't know much of anything about the history of the situation, but what I see right now, is religious fanatics fighting religious fanatics. Fuck all of 'em
I feel like we're blaming the side that is blaming a side, and there is a lot of blame going around.
Or at least that's what I did and am trying to avoid doing again.
Lol blame the british
The conflict is 3000 years old. There is no blaming anyone.
It's a conflict older than one of the religions involved. Its crazy how people think they cam blame one side only
based.
Both sides deserve blame, though. I (weakly) support Israel because I feel that Gaza has been more evil recently.
Yeah where the fuck is the antisemitism? Fuckin dogshit takes that think one side is clean where the other isnt? Yeah, plenty of that. But antisemitism itself? I havent seen it
I am seeing some of it tbh. Antisemite shitbirds who think just because a lot of folks are (rightfully) mad at Israel, that they can sneak in their heinous philosophy. Go muddy some other waters with that bullshit, is what I say.
Agreed, Isreal is doing problematic shit, that says nothing about Jewish people in general. Antisemites can eat shit
Antisemitism ≠ antizionism, lemmy.ml (speaking from experience) has waaaaay harsher and stricter moderation that something like ee or world, they straight up hard-remove words from comments, an antisemite would be banned on sight.
Me looking at all the genocide denying ethnostate apologists on lemmy 😥
Blocking hexbear helps.
And Lemmygrad AND Lemmy.ml
Why is everyone in the comments section oversimplifying this complex issue? Great reminder that that's what politics is now, blaming one side and naming the other side pure.
There's no such thing as nuance any more. If you accept that nuance exists then you might have to accept that
[acceptable opinion]might be wrong, and it might be wrong a lot.
Where? Lemmy.ml usually cracks down on racists pretty hard report them when you see them
Not my experience. If you're talking about Israel a lot of people are getting really fast really mad. If you try to talk rational about other states people stay mostly calm. I would call this behaviour a double-standard because of antisemitism. There's no rational reason why people focus so much about this little state.
I disagree with authoritarians and leninists vehemently. However. It's the way many of them are speaking about Israel right now is not at all that different from how they speak about the United States in general. The major differentiating factor is that Israel is performing a new fuck up on the world stage live for all to view. Very much current events and on everyone's lips right now. America has a huge back catalog of it. But Israel is not getting treated anymore harsher or hypocritically by them than places like the United States Etc.
Sorry I'm having a moment. In your experience Lemmy.ml does not crack down on racists in a hard manner? Because a lot of the anger towards Israel comes from an antisemitic place since other states don't get criticized so harshly?
It sounds believable since it would be pretty hard to differentiate why exactly someone is reacting in a harsh manner and ban them accordingly. Just my brain is refusing to parse words atm
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case, as the comments of lemmy.ml users here show.
Could really use some citations of .ml being anti semitic
Lemmy.world go 30 minutes without making things up about other instances challenge.
Difficulty: impossible.
Whiniest instance by far. I get the hate for hexbear and grad, but ml is normal
OP isn't from .world but ok
But they posted to it
ML banned my .ml account for saying that soldiers in the US revolution didn't murder families and children. They are full mask off
I mean objectively some probably did. One of the major provisions of the treaty of Paris was the protection of folks who were loyalists from retaliations, and the nascent US' inability to actually keep their end of that term is basically the starting point of Canada post revolution.
What qualifies that is that several revolutionary leaders majorly disincentivized that behavior, Washington in particular famously forced his soldiers to compensate nearby townsfolk for anything they needed to take, even during the stay at Valley Forge where they were basically starving to such an extreme that Washington brought Vaccine science to the US military because otherwise the sheer starvation they were going through was liable to leave them all especially exposed to disease.
You guys are very far from normal, about half your "memes" are just communist whingeing thinly veiled as humour.
What is your definition of anti-Semitism?
People who like to put the milk in with the teabag before the hot water
Ew. Heathens.
- If you make it in a mug, water, then tea, then milk.
- If you make it in a teapot, milk, then tea.
Pouring the big thing into the little thing mixes better, so really that's the best practice, but you want the water to extract the tea. Milk doesn't extract tea very well, and it also cools the water down which further reduces extraction.
You can get away with doing 2. however you like, but if you get 1. wrong then you've done fucked up.
You need to understand the history for context in the current conflict. This didn’t start a week ago.
I am not antisemitic. I just hate everyone whos involved in a war
Just use the block button, no need to cry about it
Nah, it's way more fun getting them to block you.
The rage bait habbit dies hard though.
*Fuck it, I'm going to go on a block spree tonight
General public is quite polarized leaning towards extremist thinking. Not only in terms of recent events in Israel/Gaza.
Nah you're just mad because you’re losing the information war.
People started finding out what's happening in Gaza, and that's not good news for you.
Please tell me more about the information war you're fighting
Imagine supporting apartheid and nationalism and believing you're in the right.
The Hamas Social Media Teams (no, they do not reside in Gaza) are working 24/7 to give every bit of news the right spin - especially in Arab countries but also in the rest of the world. To control the news and narrative is the most important part of any terrorist attack. Their social media strategy is very well developed and is the still continuing part of the Hamas Terror Attack.
- they want to portray Israel as a whole as some kind of monstrous entity
- they celebrate all the murders they have committed with their peer groups
- they spread the murder and rape videos also outside their peer groups, plainly to cause terror
- they use their social media activities for fundraising
"If you can't eliminate injustice, at least tell everyone about it."
National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.
Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.
In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.
J. Stalin
January 12, 193120 years later and the Doctors Plot happens😳
Yep Stalin would kill or inprison for life any motherfucker no matter his race religion or skin color. He was a decently well spoken hypocrite I'll give him that at least. Or at least he had good speech writers. Definitely a monster though.
He probably didn't read "On the Jewish Question" from K. Marx.
was karl drunk when they wrote that? it seems so contradictory to the modern understanding of marxism
It’s time that everyone involved realizes that Israel will not disappear. Deal with it.
Both sides must put an end to their hate and quit looking backwards - they must look forward. Of course there is a lot of healing to do and amends to make - and this can be done without alienating each other.
Would a single-state solution still be called Israel?
There are no solutions to issues like settlements, return of occupied land, or far-right parties that would not alienate millions of people.
Just remember if someone steal your lawn you get to wholesale murder them and their offspring forever with 0 repercussions.
And if someone asks a moral question of you, disengage by calling them a zionist. Don't forget to spend your whole day posting inflammatory propaganda and getting butthurt over fantasy-conversations you had with yourself.
