Is there any non-zero possibility Musk was not doing a Hitler Salute?
Is there any non-zero possibility Musk was not doing a Hitler Salute?
Musk:
-supposedly has autism
-autistic people sometimes make weird faux paus
To me, it looks like it's clearly a Hitler salute and the logical conclusion is he's a white supremacist. But I am just wondering if everyone else sees this that way with no room for it being a result of autism and definitely that.
Is there any possibility it could have been accidental? Or was he doing a Hitler salute, then "oh it was an accident" (wink) sort of thing? Did he apologize?
Lots of people on lemmy are really smart so I'm interested to read what people think.
The whole thing makes me really uncomfortable with buying from companies that have x profiles. I just don't see how that coukd be accidental and it seems like no one cares.
There was this period before WWII when stuff started happening to reduce the rights of minorities, but they weren't being killed blatantly. Is this where we are? I feel more scared to be in America now.
It's not the ONLY sign that he's possibly a nazi. That's why I am leaning toward him very likely being a nazi.
Yea sure - but it doesn't matter. It could have mattered but his reaction to the reaction means it doesn't.
If you accidentally do a nazi salute and then someone says "Hey bro, you really shouldn't do a nazi salute" and another dude says "Hey bro, white power! I'm glad you're on our side" and your immediate reaction isn't "Oh fuck guys, I didn't know that was a nazi salute, I fucking hate nazis" then, well, you did a nazi salute.
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Elon did a thing.
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People said "That's a nazi thing".
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Elon didn't immediately say "No, I didn't do the nazi thing."
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∴ Elon is a nazi.
It's also not like the fucker doesn't have the ability to issue a statement correcting the public perception. He literally owns fucking X and the media salivate over his press releases.
If you accidentally do a nazi salute and then someone says "Hey bro, you really shouldn't do a nazi salute"
I like to think about how a person like that would react if they accidentally "acted gay". Can you imagine how much they would trip over themselves trying to make sure people knew it was a mistake?
If you don't have that level of response to being called a Nazi, you're probably a Nazi.
First time in years I've seen the 'therefor' three dots!
∴ - copying to notes as I don't think it's available on Android keyboards.
Unexpected Keyboard (URL from memory;
unsure ifit works) has ∴ (and a lot more, like ¬∵∧∨ etc.) if you're fine with the learning curve.
It's crazy to me that people are denying it.
<inAnAlternateReality>
Elon did a thing.
People said “That’s a nazi thing”.
Elon immediately said “No, I didn’t do the nazi thing.”
People said “we don't believe you”.
∴ Elon is a nazi.
Elon didn’t immediately say “No, I didn’t do the nazi thing.”
He did though: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881746484229763524. My hypothesis: he practiced this and realized what reaction it would cause, and did it simply to hype himself up. The whole inauguration event in people minds is now associated with Elon doing "sieg heil" while being high on ketamine.
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He was meddling with the afd in Germany, he's proudly supports the apartheid in South Africa, and did a Nazi salute...
I mean, do we really need to spell it out for fucks sake?
35 yo autistic person here:
I tend to ramble on and on when I am somewhat nervous, or excited and genuinely interested in someone or something, i'll include too much detail that does eventually wrap around to connect to all the points I am trying to make, or story I'm trying to tell, but it can be laborious for a listener to make sense of.
I will often interperet things people say so literally that I miss or forget the context that the conversation is taking place in which gives a word or phrase a specific meaning, and have to ask for clarification.
Saying goodbye and ending a conversation is always either too long and drawn out, or abrupt and curt to the point of often being interpreted as rude, even though I don't mean to be rude.
...
I do not have a tendency to do a goddamned nazi salute unintentionally.
Thats uh, a pretty unambiguous, obvious social ettiquette rule, pretty binary, pretty cut and dry.
Also, if you did, you would likely be mortified and doing everything in your power to make sure nobody mistakenly takes you for a Nazi.
Because, you know, you're not a goddamn fucking Nazi.
Yep.
It doesn't matter.
It REALLY doesn't matter.
If he was doing a Nazi salute, the consequences are obvious. If he was doing something "like" a Nazi salute but can plausibly deny it, the result is exactly the same; and that means that the intent is the same, even if it is proven (magically!) that it wasn't a Nazi salute.
This is the result:
The Nazis of the world all saw it, and took it as a sign of unity. Nothing else matters.
Now Musk may or not may be autistic, but I know several autistic people (plus one with Tourette Syndrome, long ago) and you know what? Not a single one of them has done anything like a Nazi salute.
"Heil Hitler" as a phrase and a salute is fairly unique: It is something that is absolutely burned into the memory of most of humanity, regardless of language, culture, or society. Nobody with Musk's worldly knowledge and experience would accidentally do something that close to a Nazi salute. Hell, an eight year old from Latvia wouldn't accidentally do something like that. The knowledge and the taboo are absolutely burned into our collective consciousness.
There is absolutely zero chance whatsoever that Musk didn't know what he was doing.
And even if that's true, it honestly doesn't matter.
It doesn’t matter.
It REALLY doesn’t matter.
Best way I saw it expressed: If you did something that was NOT a nazi salute, but other people perceived it as a nazi salute, you would IMMEDIATELY apologise and walk it back. Given that Muskolini has not done that, he did indeed do a nazi salute.
First time I've seen "Muskolini." It's so obvious, but I never would have thought of it myself.
No. And here’s why:
ELON MUSK HAS NOT DENIED THAT HE MADE A NAZI SALUTE!
The closest he has come to a denial, so far as I can find over 48 hours after he made the gesture, is a deflective tweet mocking the people who recognized the link to Nazis as being uncreative.
This means one of two things: a. He doesn’t care that it is being construed as a Nazi salute. OR
b. He wants it to be construed as a Nazi salute.These two options very much amount to the same thing.
We will never know what exactly was going through his mind at the moment he made the motion. Regardless, even if Musk had somehow not initially intended the gesture to be a Nazi salute, he has transformed it into one by promoting that interpretation.
at first I thought it was supposed to be a normal hand over heart then doing a salute immediately after, but to do it TWICE then NOT apologize when people say it's a Nazi salute means it is 100% a Nazi salute.
Musk isn't someone who failed elementary school, he is the richest man on the world and the US secretary for government efficiency. He definitely knows what's a Nazi salute, and what isn't.
We're not in the context of a movie, a theatre play, a larp, or even a costume party where it would have been from OK to "stupid" but in the context of a political speech.
So it's definitely a nazi salute.
If you do something horrible by accident, you apologize for it. The fact that he hasn't, tells you everything you need to know.
i think he allowed himself to do it as part of his edgelord persona, trying to trigger people on purpose. the motion is intentional as his arm shoots straight out to the side as opposed to being directed to the center of the crowd or sweeping across the crowd as if to spread his "heart" as it were.
the autism defense is one that i think is being used to try to checkmate the left on the subject, as they are the most offended by the gesture but also more likely to be sensitive to neurodivergent persons and potentially less likely to criticize their actions.
in short, i believe he intended the gesture as interpreted, just not as a genuine expression of his personal beliefs. that being said, i think hes a white supremacist fascist, but i dont think he thinks hes a white supremacist fascist.
I absolutely think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of his personal reasoning for it and the way the left is being manipulated as always. The terrifying part isn't even the act itself but the lack of an appropriate response from the public and media, and all the blatant gaslighting that ensued. Ultimately he doesn't need to believe he is a Nazi to make all the self-aware ones feel empowered and validated regardless. He was trying to prove a point and he did.
the scariest implication of this whole business is the most favorable interpretation of the nonplussed reaction of the majority is that they are in such denial that a nazi government could be possible again in a first world country that they cant see it for what it is. that is to say, the exact things the people who lived through it had been vigilant to remind us about ever since.
i definitely agree that it empowers legitimate nazis, which i suppose could be his way of cultivating a voter base which no other candidate would openly support but would vote for whoever he throws his money behind as trump will no longer be a valid candidate. a best case scenario here would be that this kind of attention is too much even for trump to tolerate and will cut ties with him. i feel that would be likely to happen regardless, as they are two narcissists of the highest order, but it would be better if it happens sooner.
Musk is a distraction from everything orange clown is doing it wants to do.
This sums it up for me
First I'm not sure if he's autistic or just saying "I've got Asperger's so I'm allowed to be an asshole and you just need to deal."
But let's assume he is...
High functioning autism is not associated with involuntary Nazi salute gestures. It's also not associated with the inability to learn the significance of the gesture.
So if autism is somehow related, then how would it be?
Well the "nice" option is he is going full 4-chan troll mode thinking it is hilarious without processing just how bad it is.
The other option is that he thought he did a credible cover to blow a dog whistle, but was unable to process that he was blowing a tuba instead.
In short, even if it was because of autism, it still almost certainly means it's still quite on purpose, so it's hardly an excuse that makes things any better.
Even if he mistakenly blew a dog tuba there seems to be very little long term damage caused, partly because our news cycle is saturated with equally disturbing behavior from others in positions of power
Have you actually watched it? It was clearly a fascists/nazi salute. People who say otherwise simply don't want to admit it.
This. It's the new litmus test for Nazi apologists.
I did watch it and it scared me. No companies are cancelling twitter accounts, no one is crushing their Teslas into a cube, everyone just seems apathetic (except AOC)
I thought it looked kind of like he was flailing like an idiot. If it was a nazi salute (which is definitely possible) then it was a poorly done one (which tracks for him).
Nah, as an autistic person who works with many autistic people (I am a support worker), no. Autistic people are able to miss things, mistake social cues, and so on, but blaming autism for a Nazi salute is absolutely bullshit. Not to mention that he has done tonnes of other stuff which is in line with a Nazi salute and this is just the last in a long line of behaviours, and his family history etc, yeah, not autism, just Nazi shit.
No
I don't think so. My case:
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Just at the level of fuckin eyeballing it, the comparisons to how Hitler did it to how Musk did it are pretty damning.
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I asked Germans on Lemmy if Musk would've gotten fined if he was anyone else and had done this at an event in Germany, the answer was a confident yes. I expect Germans know it when they see it, and know how not to fall foul of the law, so that's another good test that says Musk knew what he was doing.
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Last and most damning is when you consider the context of the man himself. Musk has been directly sponsoring and promoting not just right wing but reactionary parties like AfD, MAGA, and whatever Nigel Farage's fucking circus is called for years. You can also see this in how Twitter's content is managed. The dude has been putting in lots of very visible work boosting Nazi messaging and actual Nazi politicians/parties. Is it REALLY such a shock that he would, ahem, stop hiding his power level in such a public way after a win like the 2024 election? I don't think so, and especially not if you accept that Musk believes there's not going to be another meaningful election. I don't think the other oligarchs think so either, that's why they've been so quick to fall in line and pay their tribute.
It's time to face the music. Chat, we might be cooked.
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No. In my opinion.
He has demonstrated a propensity for political action up to and including world changing meddling in democracies.
His person demands enough yearly salary from Tesla to cure cancer.
He cites history and in my recollection claims no ignorance of history.
It may be technically possible that it was a faux pas, but it is not feasibly a faux pas and is inexcusable even if it was one.
If he did it once, it would have been an extremely low but still non-zero chance that it wasn't a Nazi salute.
He did it twice though, it's now firmly a 0% chance of any kind of coincidence, misunderstanding, etc.
Thus far he's made no comment, not even to deny the Nazi intent.
No apology, no backtrack, no denial, he did it twice.
It was exactly what it appeared to be and nothing less.Thw twice in a row is meaninfful because that's how the Nazi's do it?
If it's twice, it's not a random twitch or awkward wave. He sieg heiled the front and the back
Because it clearly was an intentional gesture.
If it was an accident, he'd probably have apologized by now. But it really doesn't matter either way. It's too late now, he's given license to the far right to see it as the endorsement they want.
Yeah, if any normal person did a nazi salute by accident, they'd be all over the news refuting it. If he isn't, then it seems to default to being a nazi salute.
There was this period before WWII when stuff started happening to reduce the rights of minorities, but they weren’t being killed blatantly. Is this where we are?
Yes, precisely. And it was undoubtedly a Nazi salute.
People win elections all the time. People celebrate elections all the time. The last time somebody taking power did a gesture that looked like this was probably in Germany, 1933. This is no coincidence.
The dudes family got rich using African slaves to dig diamonds out of the dirt. Oppression and dehumanization is in his blood. The only way to cure that is to let the blood out
EDIT: it was an emerald mine, not a diamond mine
Get your facts straight. Or you are just a distraction. Be precise and accurate.
The fact that this is even a conversation is just insane to me...
Part of my questioning my gut reaction was because of the ADL response. But the more I learn, the more clear it becomes it couldn't be accidental.
He did the Nazi salute twice, intentionally.
He said "my heart goes out to you" because of plausible deniability. He was giving his followers an argument to deny that he did it intentionally, both to themselves and others.
He has not directly denied it nor apologized for it.
European leaders are acknowledging it for what it is. Neo-Nazis are acknowledging it for what it is, and they loved it.
People who are sincerely on the fence about this, admitted they actually exist, need to wake the fuck up.
He has been a public figure for over a decade and has a dedicated PR team. He knew exactly what he was doing. I have autism, I know what it is like, there is no chance I would ever do this.
A detail of note is that he denies having autism and prefers the term aspbergers which is not recognized by the DSM-5. This is interesting begans Hans Aspberger was an ardent eugenicist with nazi ties. Elon Musk is a fascist and has been for a long time.
A detail of note is that he denies having autism and prefers the term aspbergers which is not recognized by the DSM-5. .
Honestly more likely reason is that he was diagnosed with Asperger's before DSM-5, which was released only 12 years ago, and is just more comfortable with the term over autism which is unfortunately often used in a derogatory manner.
But that's an interesting note regardless hehe
Damn, I had no clue about the links between Asperger's and the Nazi scientist. It's a good thing that it's not a diagnosis anymore, because of the whole nazi science thing.
I don't think they are nazis, I think they are fascists. And I don't think they even think of themselves as fascists, I think they just think power sets the rules and that a lot of people on the left's attempts at 'fairness' are dumb, and (they think) 'well if you want to call that 'fascism' then you're an overreacting bitter delusional leftie'
Or something like that
I suspect he did it to take the piss. And to signal to elements of the right / far right that they should breathe a little more freely
Same way his government department is "doge". Same way he named Tesla's products "S.E.X.Y". Many many things he does are bait.
But do I think musk stands for what the Nazis did? No. And I think he, and his type, enjoy thinking it's "ridiculous" that anyone thinks that. "Obviously" he doesn't want to gas the Jews. "Obviously" he doesn't think all black people should be lynched.
But I do think he thinks it's ok trans people are made to fear. That sub cultures are made to feel unwelcome. That non-'wasp' lives are ruined whenever convenient. That checks and balances in government are as changeable as the furniture.
I think he thinks industry should serve a grand national vision.
I don't think he gives a shit what that vision is as long as it involves him getting even more stupid wealthy
So this pretty much sums up fascism. He's a fascist not a nazi..
First, I hope you're right. Still a shitty world but less so than what I'm imagining. The whole "we understand power so we are smart and everyone else is not as smart" is spot on.
But, I think it starts with no intention of gassing the Jews. But after a few generals have been replaced with lackeys, and those "deportation camps" in Texas start to be more trouble than they're worth, and how convenient it was when that one bunch of them happened to die, a new final solution starts to look more probable. And of course the perpetrators of the new genocide are not the bad guys. They're making the hard choices. They're the smart ones and of course it made sense to do it since digging a mass grave was cheaper than feeding 10,000 recently ex-Americans in a camp far away. That's just good economics, people! You have to think like a billionaire!
That might have gotten away from me, but I do believe there's a slippery slope and our new President and his orange skinned bff are waxing up the toboggan.
As with how Nazism worked in Germany, I think a large amount of power and influence is happy to go along with whichever way the winds blowing but are not as committed to certain ideologies as much as the demogogues and fanatics. Hitler hid the final solution from the German populace, even when treating Jewish people like shit was a fairly normalised thing to do. That's because even amongst the population of German 'nazis', many believed in the superiority of WASPs, would turn a blind eye to a Jewish person being beaten and robbed, but would balk at women and children being systematically exterminated on just a human level. Many "nazi" civilians were horrified and ashamed when the extermination camps came to light, even if they accepted concentration (prison) camps via 'out of sight out of mind'.
I think it's far more likely Trump and co will get into a situation where "natural" or mob "justice" does as much as they care to do in that regard. That is, if predominantly black areas of a city have high crime and murders "screw them that's their fault". If that leads to inequality and shorter lives "screw them that's their fault". If illegal migrants get turned back at the border and die in the desert "screw them that's their fault". If trans people suffer trying to fit into society "screw them they're the ones who want to act different". And so on.
I think it'll absolutely result in suffering and death. But run an actual extermination camp in the 21st century? Well a) it wouldn't be a secret at all b) for all its blagging America still very much needs its trading partners in Europe who would be horrified and c) a good chunk of maga would be horrified (some wouldn't but a whole load would). As much as it's fashionable to cast them all as brainrot sycophants, this isn't quite true in reality..
I think Trump fascism is about power and about WASP culture prestige and superiority, but I think money counts for far more than ethnic ideology. By all accounts Maga has never had an issue with the EB-5 visa program (aka "buying a green card"). For about a million dollars anyone in the world can become a US citizen as long as they create 10 or more American jobs with their investment. Most of these visas go to Chinese immigrants, but applications are also accepted from Mexico, Vietnam, India, Nigeria etc. Last time he was in office Trump extended the program.
It's all about power (according to them). If you've got money and you tow the line you're fine irrespective of ethnicity. If you're the "right kind" (white kind) of poor you may get help. Everyone else will find any kind of help very hard to come by even as their neighborhood becomes more lawless and lethal.
I've met ironic Nazis before. Let me give you a spoiler, they're actually just Nazis at the end of the day. The ironic bit is just a mask because they're too chicken shit to admit it to themselves and others.
I think it's fine to consider a fascist who does nazi salutes a nazi
It's not a very interesting hair to split unless you're perfectly fine with fascists who do nazi salutes but draw the line at people who identify as nazi
I think it's a hair worth splitting because I find it very unlikely that he actually subscribes to the goals that the Germany Nazi party had. And I think he relies on this in order to cultivate the 'owning the libs' narrative he keeps with his supporters and acolytes. He's fascist (and dangerous) and mischaracterising him plays into his hands to be honest..
I'm autistic too. I've fucked up socially A LOT but never in a "whoops, I just Nazi saluted" kind of way.
Read the Led by Donkeys tweet about all the shit he's been up to recently in Europe. He's gone full retard for white supremacists.
No.
The only way his autism is related is if he overestimated how funny it would be. But he 100% meant to do a Nazi salute. Twice, and then repeated a dog whistle to the 14-words.
There is always a possibility that he did not intend it to be a Hitler salute, but that possibility is not very plausible, because…he pretty much did a Hitler salute and the odds of him being ignorant of that fact are extremely low.
If it was an honest mistake he would've apologized.
Oh yeah, there's definitely a possibility. It's just that possibility is very very small.
I mean, considering the fact that it's been days and he hasn't recanted and that he has a history of supporting far right parties like the AfD, no
Where was the apology?
There was none.
He knew what he did.
Musk is playing agent provocateur. He knows exactly who is offending. He knows how he will deny it and planted seeds of doubt to make his case. It's a show of might. Elon gets off on the fact that he knows what his extreme wealth allows him to get away with but is offended at the same time that anyone might question his absolute power. In classic fascist fashion he will now insist himself, an extremely powerful and wealthy person immune to any law of any nation, is the victim here.
This type of behavior erodes at any good will people might like to inject into the political environment and keeps every one fighting each other rather then the obvious source of all the vitriol.
Honesty here. The autistic argument is really offensive to people with autism, I asked a friend with high functioning autism about his opinion. It mistreats the condition to transform it into a political scapegoat. It misrepresents what autism is. Elon is not autistic, he's is just a narcissist and always high on ketamine. I've met dozens of autistic persons, and not even once has anyone ever done the Nazi salute on accident, not even on highly euphoric social events. To suggest the autistic apology makes the person mentioning it sound awfully ableist and like an asshole. I suggest you don't ever mention it out loud to anyone ever again. It's insidious and dehumanizing against people with cognitive issues.
i wasn't trying tonbe offensive, sorry
when i viewed it, it looked like a nazi salute
but based on reactions and a lack of extreme across rhe board condemnation, I wondered if there was some strange explanation that wasn't apparent to me
Musk says he has Asperger's, a type of high funxtioning autism i thought (but may be mistaken about). I just thought this could be the only possible explanation for such unusual behavior if it wasn't just white supremacy, and even then it seemed unlikely to me.
I'm also not that knowledgable about autism. I just have a hard time understanding the mild reaction it's getting.
There's a mild reaction from media because media conglomerates are on board with the plan. Commentators made up the autistic apology immediately on the spot, because they're ableist and assholes themselves.
It's like media excusing sexual predators because they had a rough life growing up gay and similar excuses. It's a double whammy, excusing the offender in the public light while simultaneously demonizing a minority. It's a playbook neo fascist move.
https://i.imgur.com/wpqNYi6.mp4
You tell me
It's not an autism thing. The people saying that are deflecting. Autistic people don't throw practiced Hitler salutes as a stim.
Absolutely zero. The man is an out and proud Nazi who has openly said and supported anti-semitic shit on his Twitter. If any accident occurred, it is that he accidentally did it out loud and on camera, instead of the privacy of his own home.
You are also very correct, we are going through the opening beats that Nazi Germany went through. Klan members are sending out flyers in Kentucky, ICE agents are threatening to raid Democrat cities, and "deportation facilities" are being planned for construction in Texas. We have passed all the warning signs; it is happening here now.
is fleeing america the smart thing to do? or do you not expect xyclon-B levels of hate to ensue? would organization even do anything? i really believe most liberals want to regulate and protest and ignore problems and that it won't stop or slow this.
i don't want to be deer in the headlights shocked for too long
I think if you are a member of any of the marginalized groups that Trump has made disparaging remarks to, yes you should try to leave as soon as possible. Democrats aren't going to do anything about this, the U.S. government has been fully captured. Any serious protests won't start until this summer, and American protesting has been pretty weak and ineffective these last few decades.
The kind of organizing that will be necessary is not going to be peaceful. If you value your own life, you should flee while you can.
We're talking about a man who has obviously fascist politics. Pretty much anyone knows not to do a nazi salute in front of millions of people, and he did it twice. Besides, if it somehow were an accident, he'd have immediately apologised.
I can imagine him practicing in the mirror for hours to get exactly the right arm motion for a Nazi salute that is imperfect by just enough that some people will contemplate the possibility that it wasn't one.
Exactly this. The gesture had the right amount of ambiguity so everyone would think of it what better suits their ideas
Zero ambiguity. Zero.
Yes, it's possible, but he's a spoiled right wing idiot edge lord, so I'd take it at face value.
is it edge lord though? i know he hates cancel.culture and people getting too offended over jokes...
but this looks just like a nazi salute and he's laughing it off? i don't get it. it's scary to see for a lot of people.
Watch it again. It seems there is a split second hesitation before the first salute. Followed by a "let's just get that done full force" move. Kinda like people that are about to do a stunt the first time. One last "are we really going to try that?". It kinda implies intent and also that there is some sanity left there to make these decisions. Which gives me hope it's just Putin having a video of him and he is acting under duress. So definitively an intentional Nazi salute. Should try that in Germany and see how fast he gets arrested for that shit.
This a detail I haven't seen many others pick up on. The guy hyped himself up on doing it, then went for it with gusto.
Which gives me hope it's just Putin having a video of him and he is acting under duress.
What the fuck does this even mean? Why are people giving this man so many undeserved benefits of the doubt?
Nope, I doubt Putin had a thing to do with it. Musk is the richest man on earth living in the USA, he's the closest you can possibly be to being completely immune from all consequences short of having bulletproof skin.
No.
The main issue is that his heil combined with his previously expressed opinions and actions removes all doubt
He absolutely knew what he was doing. His fans thought we were being hyperbolic when we said he was a fascist a decade ago. His fans are idiots
it has nothing to do with being autistic, however he was fucking zooted on ketamine during ceremony. I doubt that he's ever sober as of lately.
Drug usage can fuck up people good or bring out what's hiding real deep in them, see Kanye's story with nitrous. And that's precisely why he's dangerous, he is powerful and deranged at the same time.
He has been at the head of a company for years. He is now in a position of overseeing and altering whole government organizations.
He knows the stakes, he knows the responsibility, he's been in the public eye for a long time. The salute was legit that is out of the question, he could have made any number of different gestures but he did that particular one twice.
Now at BEST it was "just" a senseless and reckless lapse of judgement or some batshit level trolling. But even if I gave that benefit of the doubt why would I want someone with that little self control anywhere near the level of government that he is currently playing with?
If I was calling the shots I would show him the door and pull all US Govt support for anything he touches on principal alone. Not a fan of Trump but even he hasn't pulled shit like this.
I guess if I am nit-picking, it's very hard for a statistician to claim anything as having a zero possibility... of course a statement like that helps no one. These are my actual thoughts:
non-zero possibility
It is technically possible that Musk's gesture was not a Nazi salute but rather something that looks similar. Fun fact, this is something that happened with S. Korea's Megalian hand gesture issue (for example see this case: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2621gzvkdo), where ppl found the gesture in a lot of unexpected places. However, the Megalian gesture is a pretty common hand movement, whereas the Nazi salute... I mean I guess it could happen due to a really bad out-of-context dance choreography?? But that clearly wasn't Musk's case
"But I am just wondering if everyone else sees this that way with no room for it being a result of autism and definitely that."
... I mean maybe?? I have weird Autistic intrusive thoughts sometimes but even then this is a bit... Honestly though, I don't know if I should put any respect to someone who willingly know what a Nazi salute is, and then choose to do it in front of one of the most important political events in the world, twice in a row nontheless. I find it hard to believe such an act to be a faux pass and non-intentional. Heck even if it is completely unintentional, this would be ground for job termination and put on a blacklist for life for most job positions I know
"Is this where we are? I feel more scared to be in America now."
Yeah I know... I seriously wonder why I am still in the US as well.
Not likely.
If he had rehearsed his script, everyone would've pointed out the issue
There was this period before WWII when stuff started happening to reduce the rights of minorities, but they weren’t being killed blatantly. Is this where we are?
None of that changes/happens with an exuberant salute. Embarassing for him, but you can ask him what were the good ideas Hitler had.
Americans and world will be genocided because oligarchy can see a path where slaves are a hindrance if they don't just die quietly instead of being genocided. Oligarchs could instead choose to be richer, which happens when there are more people to make stuff for them and buy their workers' stuff, but using wealth for power is a simpler thought.
The only viable politics is UBI, but we could only get warmongering neocons as "the opposition", and you will suck up to the same again.
anything is possible until the guy actually admits and quips 'deal with it'. imo, which he won't because suddenly he's relevant again with all these attention.
another opinion of mine is with enough mental gymnastics, there would exist a non-zero probability for it.
best is to settle for the simplest reason and just move on.
I mean sure. EVERYTHING has a non-zero chance of happening/be possible. Doesn't mean it's likely, or believable.
There's a chance someone has forked the blueprints of Nikola Teslas blueprints for a mind control device, and has been controling Musk for years. Just making him do/say whatever.
I'm not saying it's a good chance. I'm not saying I believe that to be true on any level. But I suppose there's nothing truely stopping that from happening.
Based on the fact that he did it repeatedly, I think it was at least an intentional gesture. I will give the benefit of the doubt and say that it may have been intended some other way as opposed to a Nazi salute, but my personal opinion is that it resembled a Nazi salute on purpose. Theoretically autism could have been a factor, but I doubt it in this case. We aren't quite at the point you mention at the end there yet, but we are rapidly approaching such a point and you should be wary and do your own research about what's going on so you can be well-informed.
Honestly, I'm not entirely convinced it was a Nazi salute. I think, given how stupid and akward he is, and the fact that the salute was so off-angle, it could have actually been an akward "my heart goes out to you" gesture.
That said, focusing on this possible red flag is stupid and honestly makes light of the situation, when looking at Elon Musk's history and past statements is like standing in the Red Square on parade day. The bigger and more undeniable red flags are all throughout his past, and continued after the salute, such as his refusal to apologize. I guess its good that people are finally putting their foot down, but the appropriate time was a decade ago at least.
No way he didn't know what het was doing. He hesitates before he does it the first time, then when he get's a positive reaction he does it the second time. This was deliberate and from what I can see many people in the the US are underreacting to it big time.
To me, that hesitation seemed more like a pause at the end of a paragraph, and the second salute, if it was so, less confident than the first (esspecially given that he bent his arm the second time). I'm not confident it wasn't an intentional Nazi salute, but I'm also not confident it was, which is why I err on the side of caution. I believe we should assume innocence unless guilt can be proven.
That said, this is why I felt the need to include the second paragraph. We shouldn't be focused on the time Elon did something wrong with plausible deniability nor should we be particularly concerned that others aren't more upset. Our focus should instead be on the fact that he has made numerous statements and taken actions that support racism, sexism, classism, misinformation and conspiracy theories, ect. and supported others who represent these values. Our fury should be at the people who ignored these far more direct and unambiguous statements, and have continued to ignore them for over a decade.
This is overly charitable given his strong and consistent support of the extreme right
Failing to see it is dangerously naive at best
The fact that he is openly a nazi-supporting white supremist is the only reason I say I'm not confident it was an accident.
But again, my whole second paragraph: Why does it matter if it was a roman salute or not? Why do we need to point to this specifically? We knew he was a Nazi before this and had clearer proof to point to then, and since then, he has not changed at all and continues to provide clearer proof. If doing a iffy, off-angle roman salute is what worries you and not the racism, sexism, homophobia, misinformation, lack of respect for human rights or justice, ect. then I think you're misunderstanding why Nazis are bad.
Any normal (read: not a fascist piece of trash) person who mistakenly made that kind of gesture would be mortified and would be tripping over themselves to clarify/correct/apologize.
Read my comment.
The bigger and more undeniable red flags are all throughout his past, and continued after the salute, such as his refusal to apologize.
Yes because the name for it is the fascist salute not the Hitler salute
He definitely did a Hitler salute, but I don't think he meant it as one. Also, I think old-school nazis would've berated him for it being a shitty one.
Looking at the clip, and hearing what he said, I think he meant it as "my heart goes out to you" - his exact words when he did it. But it's quite telling that he instinctively used that gesture and saw nothing wrong about it.
He's still a fascist white supremacist, though, we all knew that before this happened.
Along the lines of my thoughts.
it's quite telling that he instinctively used that gesture
There it is. People that don't go walking around saying N*****, don't accidentally slip it into conversation. Same here. Even if unintentional in the moment, well, he obviously walks around saying N*****. That gesture was clearly part of his "vocabulary". You get it.
And if it was merely an exuberant, "Fuck yeah!" thing, damn near every American ever would have done it with a fist. Been walking America for 54 years, never seen that salute unless it was a jokey "Heil Hitler" move.
And... of course lemmy downvotes you for trying to discuss this. Comrade, you must immediately and perfectly toe the party line. That first sentence made these morons think you're a sympathizer. We don't read past the first phrase around here. If you had put your last sentence first, you would have been golden. (Gods, lemmy users are child's play to manipulate.)
It is both a literal neonazi salute as shown in this example with the hand over heart and even without that the thrusting motion to outstretched arm on its own is blatantly obvious. Stop giving this shithead a single crumb of doubt.
Y'all don't even read these posts, do you?
it's quite telling that he instinctively used that gesture
OP nailed it. I doubt his dumbass went up there intending to throw that, but the gesture is clearly part of his "vocabulary". It's both hilarious and sad that people think Musk and Trump work with deep calculation.
But of course, you feel OP is defending Musk, or at least giving him the benefit of the doubt. So we get treated to pic #516 comparing salutes. We know.
