Just as capitalist states are "authoritarian" against working class interests, socialist states are "authoritarian" against capitalist interests.
The state is a tool for one class to oppress another. The goal of (most) communists is to transition from capitalism — where the capitalist class is in power — to a stateless, classless communist society via socialism — where the working class is in power.
Public perception of which is more "authoritarian" therefore depends on which class is currently in power and is able to manufacture consent, and that is the capitalist class in the vast majority of the world right now since the USSR's overthrow.
socialist states are “authoritarian” against capitalist interests
The problem with this claim is that the USSR was quite authoritarian towards everyone. The Gulags were a place merely of political repression. Political jokes that are part and parcel of American late night comedy shows would get people harsh labor sentences during certain periods. The claim that this had to happen to protect the working class seems thin.
One regime's political-dissident-by-speech is another's dissident-by-drug-addiction. America's "War on Drugs" was purely political disenfranchisement along racial lines, and it's a major reason why the US continues to have higher incarceration rates than the USSR had in many of the years the Gulag system was operational.
By the way, prison rape jokes have long been a part of those late night comedy shows, to give you an idea of just how ingrained the American prison culture is.
Comparing deaths may put USSR on top, but the US isn’t that far behind.
Comparing authoritarianism is another story. Both quieted political dissent in the same way: raiding opposing political organizations and jailing or killing their leaders. That is authoritarianism.
With the USSR overthrown, virtually all mainstream media now is capitalist propaganda. And the capitalist class obviously would not want the working class to prefer a system where workers are in power.
Being familiar with Bulgarian corruption, I'm going to confidently state that their percentages aren't due to a rounding error.
I was in Hungary last year and the nostalgia for communism is high and a significant portion of the population still remembers all the bad parts - Orban has really destroyed the social safety nets there and it hurts to see.
I'd also expect there's more and more people propagandized by capitalist media in post-Soviet states as time has passed since capitalist bastards took it over. People who have not lived under socialism or experienced the massively decreased quality of life from the privatization forced on those countries.
Hard to do that at the heart of the revolution I guess. Maybe Russian communist parties could use that to become more revolutionary, specially with Russians able to see the stark difference between Russia under capitalism and China thriving under socialism. Doubt that'll happen while Putin is in power though.
This graph is such bullshit. If you were being honest in your arguments there would be no need to alter the results of the study.
This is the original graph - "About the same" answers were given directly to "worse", fabricating results.
This is the study. Despite their life "not being better" on average, they still conclude that Communism has its downsides and are in no way saying they want to go back to it.
Hungarian here. There reason for being the top 1 was because the country was running on debt hell for 10-15 years.
Kádár (the ruler of that time) had promised from 1956 that he will improve the living standards. This worked until the 70s, when the oil crisis happened and Kádár realized that with those current living conditions, the country needs to get loans. So he did that until communism have ended.
They even had to build a wall to keep the capitalist working class outside of east Berlin.
That Pew data is outdated. They have new data from 2019. Why did you post outdated and bad data to strengthen you belief?
The latest research literally says conditions are better now for most people. Unless you hate homosexuals and women. Every metric indicate high standards of life and rights.
I hate capitalism as much as the next person. But posting like you did is how we got Trump. Just faking everything till it happens.
"Bad data" is when you use data more representative of people who have actually lived under socialism and experienced the massive decline in quality of life, social welfare, housing, etc after capitalist bastards took it over and privatized everything for their profit
Isn't that generally said by countries that oppose them?
The land of the less authoritarian had race discrimination until half a century ago, right? Seeing the BLM, it seems to have a prominent role even now. So are they any better?
I see a lot of comments saying they aren't. I'd disagree, but I agree they don't have to be. The issue is most of the major powers in the world have opposed leftist governments anytime they show up. The ones that didn't have a strong central power and cultural hegymony collapsed under the pressure. Any nation that had a weaker central power was either destroyed, couped, or undermined by the west.
There is nothing intrinsically authoritarian about leftism (really, I'd say it's less authoritarian in it's ideals), but authoritarianism is easier to hold together when outside pressures are trying to destroy you.
Nowadays we constantly hear denunciations, directed toward Islam, of ‘religious totalitarianism’ or of the ‘new totalitarian enemy that is terrorism’. The language of the Cold War has reappeared with renewed vitality, as confirmed by the warning that American Senator Joseph Lieberman has issued to Saudi Arabia: beware the seduction of Islamic totalitarianism, and do not let a ‘theological iron curtain’ separate you from the Western world.
Even though the target has changed, the denunciation of totalitarianism continues to function with perfect efficiency as an ideology of war against the enemies of the Western world. And this ideology justifies the violation of the Geneva Convention, the inhuman treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, the embargo and collective punishment inflicted upon the Iraqis and other peoples, and the further torment perpetrated against the Palestinians. The struggle against totalitarianism serves to legitimate and transfigure the total war against the ‘barbarians’ who are alien to the Western world.
Socialist countries are not, the entire Scandinavian block are super socialist, and not authoritarian.
As for Communist countries, no one has actually implemented communism, only in name. Communism means the workers, not the state, control the means of production. The state controlling them allows for bad actors to seize control.
Scandinavian countries are not "super socialist" - sure, we have robust social welfare systems, but these are funded through taxation on regulated market economies with private ownership. That is not socialism.
I know that there were some experiments with trying to transfer into a socialist system here in Sweden during the 70s (I think?), but those failed in a spectacular fashion and were rolled back. They are the reason that many famous "Swedish" brands such as IKEA aren't actually based in Sweden.
Authoritarianism has nothing to do with economic systems and everything to do with government structure. The Soviet bloc/China and other communist countries were authoritarian because the populous allowed their governments too much power. China is ultra capitalist now and they're as authoritarian if not more so.
People remember communist countries as more authoritarian because they're the more taught examples. Pinochet was a turbo capitalist and he was one of the most authoritarian rulers in history.
some people have to be forced into being a part of a social system.
IE, there are people who would rather let others die in the streets than have their taxes raised. some people are just terrible human beings who believe 'i got mine, fuck everyone else' which is antithetical to socialism, and requires a heavy hand via regulation.
there are people who would rather let others die in the streets than have their taxes raised.
American conservatism in a nutshell is this statement paired with a crabs in a bucket mentality. If anybody else succeeds in any way, then it must be at my own expense, so I should make sure that nobody else suffers less than me or succeeds more than me. We're all fucked together!
mccarthyism, red scare, American and western Europe propaganda. listen to Blow Back podcast it explains a lot of political meddling and how capitalism is working in its best interest in crippling socialism
We haven’t had a “communist” country yet. Communism is a spontaneous, free market for voluntarily donated goods and services.
Communism is basically how groups of people under about 100 behave naturally. Any group of friends on a road trip is inherently communist, as is any tribe of people, as is any family.
At larger scale, this kind of “just pay attention and do what needs doing” approach to economic distribution breaks down. Marx believed that with enough material abundance, humans would naturally behave communistically at larger scales as well. I think he’s wrong, but it remains to be seen.
So far we’ve never had communism at the scale of a county. We’ve had socialism, which is where the government forcibly redistributes wealth.
The reason that socialist countries are more authoritarian is that socialism is by definition the non-free-market version of that process.
Under capitalism, if you have an acre of farmland, that’s your acre of farmland until you decide to sell it. Under socialism, whether it’s your acre of farmland is the decision of the central economic planning committee, and in order for that committee to be able to decide whether you keep your farm or not, it needs to have the authority and power to take it from you. And the policy to do so.
Do you see why this requires a more authoritarian society?
Let’s look at it another way. Under capitalism, ie under what we call the “free market”, you own the farm. That means you have authority over it. You have authority over yourself. There’s just as much authority; it’s just that the authority is broken into little bits and distributed to people who own capital.
Under socialism, the people own the farm. Except “the people” can’t effectively operate with anything like a will, due to a lack of borg hive mind telepathy mechanics unifying their will into a single instrument, and so “the people’s” authority is wielded by the Central Committee.
When authority is centralized in this way, taken away from individuals and given instead to the state, we call this an “authoritarian” state.
Authoritarian therefore doesn’t refer to more authority; it refers to the authority being concentrated in the center.
And the authority over economic decisions being concentrated in the center is, by definition, “socialism”.
Just to clarify since I don’t think I did in the above comment: by the above explanation communism is not authoritarian. Communism is the free, distributed decision-making version of socialism. Communism is a free market scenario, just like capitalism. It’s just a gift economy instead of a trade economy.
To be more accurate when talking online its better to distinguish between who is intended to be in charge (capitalism vs socialism) and what political systems are in place to implement it.
China for example has some state capitalist characteristics meaning the state is ran in part and for the owners of capital. This is where some of their strongest economic intervention its policies stem from.
Another example would be community cooperatives operating outside of the state. They clearly are not "capitalistic" by their nature but also are not a form of central planning.
Another weird breakdown of these dichotomyies are inside of a megacorps operations, which while the corp is clearly owned by, and operated by the owners of capital (as virtual representation of shares) internally it is ran as centrally planned entity with no free market between departments (though some entities do expirment with heavily regulated market like Amazon does).
Tldr
Its a complicated subject, but boiling everything down to a false dichotomy based on 50 years of evidence does it a huge disservice. A better one to separate the intended stakeholders and what is the intended ways allowed for conflict resolution and coordination.
A socialist business (exanple worker owned cooperatives)
A capitalistic business (publically traded companies)
Of course most modern organizations have multiple interest groups so you can have a state that has both capitalist favored laws, and working class and small business owner and NGO and etc etc
Under communism, sovereign authority is attributable. If you ask the US president, they'll say they have little power. If you ask senators, or congresspeople, or local representatives, the media, the bourgeoisie, neither do any of they wield power. Where authoritarianism occurs under capitalism, apparently no one is responsible for it. Under communism, it's directly attributable to communists.
Both are often authoritarian, but the argument that communists are more authoritarian is simply an easier one to make.
From a Swedish standpoint, this is just nonsense. The Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Island and Denmark) are all in the top six most democratic countries in the world (according to The economist, England). These are were much socialist countries and most definitely democratic.
Then you have china, soviet and alike. Those are countries that call(ed) themself communist. I will argue that that's however mostly used as a label to legitimate the government and to obscure what they really are, in the same manner north Korea is formaly named the democratic people's republic of Korea (DPRK). Those countries does/did not operate as communist states the way that Marx and other political theorists imaginend them.
Yes i know it's not perfect and the exact positions might not be completely accurate but I still think the overall picture it paints it useful. Maybe we aren't the most democratic countries but we're defently democratic. You can check this whit whatever source you happen to prefere
I'd like to add that the nordic countries are not socialist by any metric.
Also, we shouldn't be so quick to trust western media on the DPRK, who have gotten to the point that they can literally say anything about their enemies, and have it be believed.
They Nordic countries type of socialism may not be a replacement for capitalism (I live in Sweden so I'd know) but works alot more like the type of socialism that's common in Europe.
This terminology might not be on spot but I still think the Nordic countries are what most people would refere to as at least a little bit socialist. Maybe the proper term is social democratic?
I believe it's inherent to the system. The whole point of a communist system is a centrally planned, and controlled, economy. This gives the state immense control and as inherent to every form of government, self preservation at any cost.
As discussed in "rules for rulers" by cgp grey, there is no such thing as a benevolent or kind dictator. All politicians and leaders will use any means available to themselves to further their own ambitions.
The capitalist class controls the state in capitalist countries, including ostensibly democratic” ones. They use the state to to rule the working class and to protect their private property.
self preservation at any cost.
This is practically every state that has ever existed.
“rules for rulers” by cgp grey,
Maybe step away from the Polandballs and go read/listen to some books.
An interesting point against communism is the lack of drive for innovation it creates. If you're living in a truly classless society (which has never and does not exist), you have no drive to do better, there is no personal reward to innovate besides progressing your society in ways you'll likely never see / be rewarded for.
I know a lot of people push back against this but it's true in many regards. The vast majority of soviet innovation is directly from government activity and investment. When the Soviet union surpassed western governments in certain fields, it was always heavily funded by the government.
If you step back and look at the small things, consumer products and especially computers, they were extremely behind.
Politically they have ended up authoritarian in many instances. However, capitalism has as much "authoritarianism", just economically. Try whatever -ism you like, enough percentage of population is psychopathic and will climb to a position of power in some form or another. It's in our collective nature.
from my own experience observing people migrating from the soviet union, they're considered more authoritarian for the efforts to keep the workers in the worker's paradise, the moment you have to put up walls and border checkpoints to keep people in, it's over. you're an authoritarian state, no longer actually socialist imho.
How is this a controversial take? If you need a wall to keep people in or attempting to emigrate makes you a "defector", or you've built up a huge surveillance network where your neighbours or even partners can report you for bullshit "crimes" , you're an authoritarian state.
The economic policy of those countries is socialism.
They are also democracies.
Like if I asked what kind of car you had you could say "Honda" or "a red Honda".
Their not two different answers because one included unrelated information.
If someone asks what kind of government they have, "democratic socialism" would be correct, because only giving one of the main axises wouldn't tell the full story.
But since we're talking economic systems, the democratic part is superfluous
None, as any communist country will tell you. They are socialist states working toward communism, meaning a classless society, and, by their own theory of state, a stateless society.
I mean, you’re asking about two separate political axis: economy, and control.
You may not realize that these are in no way orthogonal to each other, but the bourgeoisie certainly do, because they own the means of production, and they use the state to enforce the private ownership that perpetuates their control over the proletariat.
Well, us socialists have free health care and education. Most of us socialist states have female bodily autonomy. Were not big on banning books either. Most importantly we recognise a false dichotomy. Also we actually know what socialism is. Try visiting Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most of Europe.
You'll notice that they're are not authoritarian at all. You might just be an American, but that's not your fault.
I don't know why that comment is collecting downvotes. They are referencing George Orwell's "Animal Farm."
Context: "Animal Farm" is a story about how communism can devolve into dictatorship. In the story, the animals on a farm drive out their tyrannical drunkard farmer. They write on the barn wall: "all animals are equal" and live in communist utopia. But some animals, too, hunger for power and status. Rather than overturn the system, they undermine it by adding "...but some animals are more equal than others" to the barn wall, legitimizing a ruling class (themselves) because they are "more equal."
For anyone interested they're currently releasing a modern retelling in comic book form called Animal Pound, next issue is #5 of 6, and the collected trade paperback will be along later after issue #6.
It's fantastic imo so far. The Pound has just found their new autocrat, their Napoleon, and shit is getting real for the poor lil bunnies.
Im not sure what you mean by socialist countries. But communists countries are more oppresive:
They have leaders that stay in power for decades. Opposition is often punished.
There is nor freedom of speech, speaking against the government gets you in jail or worse.
In some of those countries, people are not allowed to leave the country.
And for the record, I agree that poverty is extremely oppressive as well and we need more socialist reforms in capitalist countries, tax harder the rich, break monopolies, foster more unions and so on, I just dont agree that communism is the magical land you all think it is and the solution to all the problems. Nobody seems to want immigrate to North Korea for a reason.
Because the communism is a convenient ideology for totalitarian states to exploit and control the population.
It's exactly like the middle-ages Christianity, with the Bible promoting humanitarian ideology, and the church exploiting the hell out of the population.
That's also why communists banned all religions, they don't want any competition.
Because communism doesn't work for large, heterogenous groups, so increasing amounts of coercion are used to keep the system running.
And new forms of government such as socialism are generally more succeptible to corruption as people find the new loopholes; as a government gets more corrupt, those who corrupted it seek to consolidate their power.
I think socialism can be made workable, as we examine and correct the problems with previous attempts. I don't think communism works well for human societies, as it requires people to act better than we know they do.
I'd argue that no system truly works for larger groups.
more susceptible to corruption
I couldn't disagree more. Any system is very susceptible to corruption. It's all about accountability and transparency, which those in power will never make themselves do, because it is actively harming them by stripping them of opportunities to amass more power and influence.
And that is true in any system. Communist states became totalitarian dictatorships, while Capitalist nations also grow more corrupt because of greed and power lust, to the point where you see things like "the revolving door" in the USA, or the Tory party donors essentially paying for peerages in the UK. And of course, there's also lobbying.
Corruption is everywhere and the common man gets screwed over regardless of the system or people in charge, because the good people are always too good to compete, fight, and play dirty against these politicians so the winners are always the evil ones.
That's not only an incredibly nihilistic way of seeing the world, but also it is exactly what the bourgeoise dictatorships want you to see: "everything is terrible but the dreaded others are worse, now shut up and work for my 10th yacht"
Established systems, at least ones that last, tend to have checks on corruption or on consolidating power. These are not always effective, obviously, and corruption is always a danger. My critique was specifically how newer systems have new and unforseen avenues do these antisocial activities.
Because the rulers under communism are still the political class and not the working man. And instead of being able to uplift yourself via entrepreneurship you have the state controlling every aspect of your life, your career, and your ability to own property