But Captain America is a good movie. I mean, he kills Nazis.
"But they're just TV shows" "it's not that deep" etc. I would implore you to listen to this excellent episode of Citations Needed..
It covers how modern cop shows were invented directly to counter shows that portrayed defence lawyers as the protagonists, along with a general push to lionize the police state despite its inability to prevent crime or deliver real justice.
Copaganda
Crazy how much of this stuff is subsidized by or directly financed by the national security state. The most infamous, in my memory anyway, was the Transformers Franchise which got enormous access to US military staff and equipment during the shooting. The end result was a movie that felt more like one of those hookey 80s "Join the Marines" ads than a piece of action cinema.
I kinda get it though...it's not like these armed forces are producing the movie themselves.
The studio wants to make a movie about/involving these entities. They want it to be as realistic as possible and the entity itself has the authority to give them access that it could also deny.
If you're in charge of, say, the Marines PR department, you're constantly trying to make the Corps look good and boost recruitment. If you can do this for next to nothing against your budget by granting access to a studio making a film that will give you essentially free PR, that's a great move. The bigger the movies potential, the more the entity in question is motivated to support it.
On the other hand, if the film is going to make your organization look bad, no PR person with a functioning brain is going to help that project in any way.
Idunno, I feel like these organizations do enough actually bad things, that I don't feel the urge to crucify them for cultivating image and working to generate positive PR.
NGL CSI was my shit growing up. Though I was never deluded into believing that accurately reflected reality to any extent. ACAB
should have replaced CSI NY with Blue Bloods, same message, same city.
Captain America is a weird one to include. Not denying it's propaganda, everything is, but throwing Cap in with copaganda is such a surface level take. He's propaganda for American exceptionalism sure, but also embodies it in an old school New Deal way. The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
Imo Iron Man is the much more harmful propaganda. You can pretty much draw a direct line between the characters rise in popularity thanks to the MCU and the rise of Elon Musk.
Elon was literally in 2 at the Grand Prix
Any superhero movie is problematic. They all say that only a few special people can save the country and the world. The rest of the population just has to hold tight and let the important people do their thing. It's just a small step by replacing powers with wealth to give the rich carte blanche to do as they please.
Not to mention that a lot of those special people are born better
Thanks for putting this into words. I've had a vague discontent and disgruntlement with superhero crap for a long time. While this isn't the only reason I dislike superhero movies, this is a big part of it.
I do still like The Punisher movie with Jain, Dredd, The Crow, and a few others. Antiheros in general. They're also more human and not as one dimensional.
People kept calling Musk -- Stark because they thought he was a scientist/genius. Like the MCU fake tech was gonna be birthed out of this immature edge lord that steals people's idea with stolen money.
Yeah I kinda disagree with Cap as well. He also explicitly refutes the government to stand up what he believes is right in Civil War too.
He’s propaganda for American exceptionalism sure, but also embodies it in an old school New Deal way. The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
Pretending that America isn't only already fascist, but inspired the fascists they are supposedly against is American exceptionalism, and you're eating it right up.
Kind of what the whole thing in civil war was. Tony was looking to absolve his guilt over the people they failed to save while looking for more and more authoritarian methods of keeping the world "safe".
Cap was much more for freedom and while the idea that the avengers should have absolutely no oversight is absurd, the question of who should be the oversight was important and much of what the avengers did could not wait on a committee to decide to act (also, the last time a committee did act they decided to nuke New York)
Yep. If cops had the ethics / morals of cap we'd have zero issues with the police.
I think part of it's that not all propaganda is bad.
There's probably a term for it, but I'd draw a distinction between "opinion" propaganda and "aspirational" propaganda.
One tries to change your opinion of something, like "cops are good noble and always do the right thing".
The other encourages the viewer to live up to some ideal. It's entirely possible for that ideal to also not be great, but even then "I should be" is better than "they are".A lot of PSAs and things from the ad council fall in the later category. Like the billboards that basically say "real men are present and emotionally available fathers to their children" or "good parents teach their kids healthy diet and exercise by example”.
They're openly cases of the government trying to change public opinions or attitudes (which arguably makes them better examples of propaganda than a lot of commercial television), but they don't feel as objectionable."This honest and kind man who always tries to do good and help those around him to the point that it overshadows him being a physically perfect human is the embodiment of the emblematic American man" is more in that aspirational category.
"Propaganda" comes from "propagate", so the word inherently isn't bad. The suffix "anda" basically means "thing of", so in a literal sense, "propaganda" is any "object of propagation", although this reading of etymology isn't widely circulated.
Propaganda is thus inherently a very all-encompassing term. Any poster, flyer or brochure is propaganda, whether it advertizes a product, service, lost cat, or wants you to join the army. Anything "mass media" is propaganda. Anything spreading "a message" that is meant for wider propagation, regardless of the message content is propaganda.
At least that's according to my rudimentary knowledge of high school latin. There's the more "mainstream", "official" etymology on Wiktionary: the word was first used in the name of an old Catholic Church department from Latin times for "spreading the faith", so that's where the more loaded use and connotation comes from. However, I doubt that this department name is the first ever use of the ablative feminine gerund form of the verb propagate. That's like saying the first use of the term "World health" is in the name World Health Orgsnization. If anything, someone had to discuss the name beforehand.
So, there's this Overton window-esque aspect to the word.
Wikipedia has a good overview of propaganda, although it is itself loaded onto the "must be loaded (i.e. what you called 'bad' propaganda)" definition of propaganda. And they like usibn the word "loaded" a lot.
You can enjoy TV shows and movies while knowing ACAB is the truth.
For me now I think of it like a marvel movie.
This cop not shooting anyone is just like a man with superpowers swinging through the city on sci fi ropes.
It's nice to imagine.
Really depends. Cops shows are really off putting to me. Marvel is kinda OK; not a fan, but it's so over the top that I can abstract from the propaganda.
thats where it gets ya if you are not keen eyed for their tricks
Even if you know it, they still worm their way into your head as surely as Barry Manilow’s TV commercial jingles.
ACAB is false though? At least it's a one-dimensional analysis of reality.
At least it’s a one-dimensional analysis of reality.
This is a non thought. Meaningless drivel.
Where does stuff like Brooklyn 99 come in?
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I tend to lump it in with The West Wing as idealistic wish fulfilment of how we'd like things to be, or a picture of our human potential.
Fetish content
Moonie (Moon Channel) has a lovely 2h30 video on the topic of Kawaii: Anime, Propaganda, and Soft Power Politics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM2VIKfaY0Y
It focuses mostly on the eastern part of things, but it applies to stuff we end up consuming, too. Also worth quoting one of the top comments in the video:
I think you get one thing wrong, and that is claiming Japan is the #1 at projecting soft power. I'm sorry but the US is #1 and it isn't even a contest (coming from a non-American). The reason we don't really get the impression that the US is this soft power behemoth is because the US has been so proficient in projecting soft power that it has been normalized and integrated everywhere.
forgot call of duty
Yes, master
Maybe once upon a time, but the current state it is in is definitely not military propaganda.
Why?
You don't get it... its super
It's just innocuous entertainment.
Listening to the Super Earth Anthem doesn't make me want to drop a 380mm barrage over everything the Illuminate hold dear, or anything...
Only some of us have the strength and the courage to be free!
Bro thinks Startship Troopers is actual army propaganda.
The book was so on point people still argue if it was pro or anti fascism.
When I first watched that movie, there was a group of guys that would have joined the troopers, judging from at what scenes they cheered.
You don't copy Leni Riefenstahl without making at least partly a fascist propaganda movie.
You can start my ship any time
Didn't captain America literally become a fugitive of the state
He threw a tantrum because he didn't want public oversight over his and his friend's superpowers.
It was basically a "You're a loose canon, McBain" cop storyline.
The cop dramas are often like modern fantasy to me. There's different classes and quests. It doesn't reflect real life.
We're more aware of it now. Cop shows have always been about cops willing to break the rules, and they are made the heroes. This gave a whole generation an excuse to look at dirty cops as heroes doing what they needed to do
wait why is captain america up there? its wrong to fight nazis? is that what you're saying?
Propaganda does not inherently mean something is wrong. Capitan America was created as propaganda to encourage the US to join WWII.
Captain America's creation as an explicitly anti-Nazi figure was a deliberately political undertaking: Simon and Kirby were stridently opposed to the actions of Nazi Germany and supporters of U.S. intervention in World War II, with Simon conceiving of the character specifically in response to the American non-interventionism movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America
More recently, the character has certainly been used as propaganda for American nationalism in meme culture
thanks for the info 👍
He masks the fact that you (Americans) are the Nazis. It masks the fact that all soldiers are the enemy of free people. It enforces American exceptionalism. Fuck Marvel, Disney, all Super Heroes and Yankee media.
What are you talking about man? Of course all Super Hero stories are propaganda, but Nazi propaganda??? Do you even know what that word means?
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fi1un7mkv3dr11.jpg
That sounds like Nazi propaganda to you? I don't care if you want to shit all over corporate media, I'd probably even agree with you, but this take just isn't it
Everything is propaganda if it changes your view of something
I knew it, glasses are propaganda
That's too much of a generalization. Propaganda is far more specific.
Doesn't even need to change your mind.
Pretty much spot on, though that is the exact point of these kinds of shows.
It was part of a wave of shows launched to counter the media perception of incompetence in law enforcement/prosecution. They pushed a bunch of dangerously misleading (or even outright fake) claims such as the reliability and accuracy of forensic evidence which has been later used in actual court cases to imprison innocent people.
As always, Citations needed has done a brilliant job on this kind of stuff that's worth a listen.
If people are quoting tv as facts in the court room that's a different level of anti science that I'm not prepared to accept.
How dumb can a society be that people with college degree and doing something for a living can't sort out fact from fiction? And I'm not talking one lawyer, I'm talking both sides of the bench AND judge.
blue bloods is the most offensive one
Honestly I'm more offended people made a big deal about COPS! getting cancelled only to be replaced with Live PD, which doesn't have a team filming them but rather just works off all the body camera footage. Worse than COPS ever was.
“Live” pd had a camera crew, they also use dash cam and body cam footage. That’s kind of the point of the “live” pd name, a crew following and filming them for the majority of it. They did use a delay and would clearly end or cutaway from stuff but its successor on patrol “live” has definitely shown police doing dumb shit and has caused some departments to pull out of being on the show.
There’s other shows and I forgot the name that would just do re-enactments of calls and responses and some that only use body cam / dash cam footage.
I vaguely remember being somewhat shocked at what Chicago PD has the "good guys" do and justifying it.
yeah Chicago PD is also notably gross, especially when you consider how much real life violence occurs in the city as a direct result of police antagonism.
My ex really liked that show, mostly the main guy. Could you elaborate a bit, e.g. plot, characters etc, if it's no trouble?
it's a show that hits all the usual conservative copaganda talking points. cops are good. bad guys are bad. innocent people will be fine as long as they comply. then consider how often a "good" character is white and a "bad" character is black, and a disconcerting pattern starts to arise. the show is outright cop apologia
New kid on the block always flew off the handle and went with his gut feeling. He was constantly using excessive force and beating up suspects. Even when it seemed like he went to far they would ultimately find out that whoever he beat up was a "piece of shit criminal" and they deserved it. The sister who was a DA and tried to get them to follow the rules was played as a bleeding heart liberal, and would get herself or others in trouble from being too soft on crime. She was also portrayed as a "ball busting bitch" with a chip on her shoulder. Grandpa was a racist fuck that everyone justified as that's just grandpa, he's from a different time.
I really hated that episode of Skip Intro's copaganda because it was just so well argued... it's a really good episode but man does it get my blood boiling!
It's a shame the show is such a good concept. I loved watching what was essentially an every day look into this police dynasty but boy did it get unbearably boot licky over time. The old man telling his stories of how he used to not give a fuck as an old cop from the 60s was always funny (and explains how the family has always been this "privileged" strata).
there's a world where better writers make something better with it. as it stands it's either overtly racist, or as tone deaf as saying "i don't see color"
Is it any wonder I tend to gravitate to video games where the main character is stranded alone somewhere. Subnautica, Satisfactory, Factorio, Antichamber...
SVU gets a pass for being AWESOME
I would say we peaked copaganda when Sonic 3 had the GUN general guy be a good guy. GUN was never Sonic's friend. They didnt even play City Escape in that movie. 5/10.
True, but GUN in general is just shown as a really incompetent group. The weird general could have been the only one preventing them from going full antagonist against sonic.
That dude was incompetent himself as evidenced by the previous movies. Highly doubt.
They fucked up by not just dropping the beginning to SA2:B in there. But the government can't be the bad guy right now or you face Oranginum's Dementia Wrath.
Weird but not that out of the ordinary. Watched the previous two movies before seeing 3 and that general is one odd fellow.
Needs NCIS
What do you define as propaganda? Anything could be if your definition is too broad.
Edward Bernays wrote the book on it, as well as Walter Lippman[1]. And subsequently so have Michael Parenti[1][2] and Noam Chomsky[1].
- Short YouTube intro: Noam Chomsky: The five filters of the mass media machine
- Somewhat longer one: You're Not Immune To Propaganda
From the first one
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.
Sounds like it's referring to any marketing or public communications from any company government or individual. I'd qualify that as overly broad.
I'd define propaganda as misconstruing the truth towards political ends. If it's commercial ends rather than political, it's false advertising. If it's not misconstruing, then it's advertising or public communications. Just to set a baseline.
I can't find what your sources are defining as propaganda from a brief look, let's compare to my definition.
In this case, all bullshit Yank media that makes you think America are good guys and cops help you.
I have a Flag Smashers shirt... go figure, they speak to me.
I was putting it on a couple days ago and I paused and thought about it, and suddenly realized the immensity of the propaganda - the great Captain America destroying the evil socialists who think resources should be shared by everyone, and that nationalism is a barrier to truly having 'one human family'.
Blew my mind it took me this long. Also made me wonder if they were dug up from long ago comics when America was openly and blatantly monitoring and persecuting socialists and communists (specifically picturing the scenarios and time illustrated in Oppenheimer). Haven't had a chance to dig in to that part yet, but I will right now!
I didn't know those were a comic thing. The Flag Smashers were so bad and stupid I buried them in my memory. I saw them less as a political group and more as delusional extremists mad their economic situation went in the toilet because people who were dead suddenly weren't. Killed children over "borders bad". Boy do I hate that part of the show.
A reasonably good movie and 3 trash police procedurals are propaganda? I don't get the point here.
Haters gonna hate.
Stuff I like is different! It's NoT HyPoCrISy!
25 years ago I noticed the trend in the movies in the theater, and realized the USA was becoming fascist. I was sad, but surprised later at how long it took. I rather thought it would be faster and more dramatic, and not this creeping sorry mediocrity seen later in politics
