Transcription for the blind: Storefront with two paper signs taped to the window. Left sign says "Since the supreme court had ruled that businesses can discriminate...NO SALES TO TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Right sign says "We only sell to churches that fly the pride flag" and has an illustrated image of a pride flag and a church.
-Transcription done by a human volunteer. Let me know how I can do better.
Good ai human not robot
*hand out treats
Good human
Good human
Good human
Thanks dude. You make the world a better place.
Thank you, I'm not blind but I appreciate you helping out others
good
bothuman
This was always legal. I'm an attorney, I do not represent any Trump supporters. If a client says something favorable about trump, they are no longer my client. They are just too stupid, judgement too poor, don't understand difference between reality and fantasy. They make the absolute worst clients.
I'm not sure about discrimination against customers based on ideology, but I'm pretty sure you can't discriminate against customers based on protected class (sex, race, orientation, etc.) What this supreme court case does (IIUC) is that companies are now allowed to not provide services to protected classes if those services constitute speech. So if you are a restaurant owner, or a hotel, you still can't refuse a gay couple, if you are a cake designer, you can't refuse to make a cake, but you can refuse to do anything remotely gay-related to that cake, if you are a web designer, you can refuse to make something altogether because the government can't restrict or compel speech (and graphic design is speech).
...I feel like you've got some stories you could be sharing
If they're trump supporters... they probably wouldn't be paying you anyway.
Nah. Many of them have stumbled their way into money. Lots of trade people and small businesses, which makes up my typical clientele, others are sons and daughters of second or third generation union humps. Many grew up with one working parent being able to provide and that union parent has one or two pensions and is still hustling jobs. So, many of them can afford a lawyer. They are unfailingly whiney babies who are an awful combination of privileged existence and self agrandizement. I blame social media for validating their most half-baked ideas and emotional reactions.
trump griftes any monies left
I mean, yeah, at that point they're just a big fat liability.
And they learned it from watching Trump.
This guy laws
Those signs won’t stop them because they can’t read
🤣
Quick side note: you are within your rights to refuse service based on political affiliation full stop -- it's not protected under the equal protections clause.
That being said, the issue is not about denying service full-stop, but the right to refuse expression of values you find to be wrong. Believe it or not, these cases are important for everyone and guarantees that the state can't force you to create messaging in support of (i.e. endorse, which is a form of speech) something you disagree with.
It's not granting the right to discriminate. It's protecting your first amendment right to not be compelled to engage in speech you disagree with.
For example, say I go to a bakery run by devout Muslims and request a cake that depicts a cross with the phrase "only through Jesus may you find eternal life" underneath. That baker may be uncomfortable with the idea of creating that design as it not only goes against their own sincerely held beliefs, but may conflict with some negative views they may hold of Christians or Jesus (or even the particular denomination of the customer).
That Muslim baker has every right to refuse the design of the cake on free speech grounds. Religion is a protected class in the equal protections clause, so the Christian may feel like they're being discriminated against, but it's the message (which is considered to be speech) and not the individual being a Christian causing the issue.
That Muslim baker cannot blanket-refuse any Christians from buying any cakes. If that Christian customer instead asks for a blank cake that they'll decorate themselves, the baker must sell it to them or else they are violating the equal protections clause. In that case, service is being refused based on the traits of the customer rather than on the particular message being expressed on the cake.
It's silly and I think people would be better off just accepting the work and taking the money. If I was aware of a business that made cakes, websites, whatever -- but refused certain designs based on their personal views, I would simply discontinue any further support of them. I'd prefer a business who puts their own shit aside and serves whomever wants to pay them.. but to compel them to suck it up and either compromise on their views or close up shop is directly contradictory to one of the most important rights we recognize here -- to speak freely and without cohersion from the state.
The business owner isn't doing anything wrong with their signs, but they're completely missing the point of the decision and comes off as a bit silly.
What you described was not the actual outcome of the ruling.
The wedding website designer did not give them a website with no mention of being gay, that they could fill in themselves. The website designer was allowed to fully refuse them any kind of website at all. Just like refusing a blank wedding cake because the couple is gay.
The justification of the decision was not in good faith. It stepped away over the bounds of protecting against compelled speech. And they deserve to feel the consequences.
The whole goddamn case was not in good faith.
The supposed customer for a gay wedding website turned out to actually be a married straight dude.
If the wedding designer has a "blank wedding site" package premade and refused to sell it to them then I don't think that's right. But if all of the websites are bespoke designs where the designer must create something for the couple, it's fuzzy.
Personally, I don't know. There is, and should be, a line between personal life and work life. But depending on what you do for a living, the line can be a thin one or a thick one.
For example, if I churn out hundreds of identical 3D printed characters and sell them at an open-air market, I shouldn't be allowed to single out a customer and refuse business just because I don't like the look of them. But if I'm a graphic artist, I shouldn't be compelled to draw something that I find objectionable. Eg: I might be a woman who has been sexually abused in the past, and someone wants a sexually graphic depictions of a sexual assault (like the Guns 'N' Roses "Appetite for Destruction" cover).
Those examples are easy to comprehend because they're extremes. The difficulty in interpreting the outcome of the case is trying to bring the examples closer to the center.
Can you refuse to sell handpainted greetings to someone you don't like? No. It doesn't matter that it's a creative endeavour. If you created the product without coercion, and are now selling them at a stall in your local town, it's not ok to refuse a simple transaction because you don't like the buyer. What if you also offer a service of writing a message in fancy calligraphy on the inside? Can you refuse to write something you find objectionable? I think so.
I don't think it comes down to who your customer is. I think it comes down to what you're being asked to do.
Edit: lol, what a typo. Thanks swype keyboard!
This is the best take I’ve seen in this thread so far. It’s an issue of compelled speech, not of this or that demographic or ideology of the client or service. I’m not trying to dog whistle here, I hate that any business would exercise this in a hateful way, but another example of the reverse would be compelling a black-owned bakery to write an awful racist message on a cake. Obviously no person should be compelled to say what they don’t believe, regardless of the level of asshattery they dabble in.
A lot of shitty analogies abound.
How about these ones:
Is it ok to refuse service to a mixed race couple getting married?
Is it ok to refuse service to a couple, both of whom are black who are getting married?
I think these examples are much closer to the analogies people are coming up with in this thread. Or do you think being gay is an ideology? Is being gay a religion? Is being gay like being a racist?
Or is being gay something that a person is born as? If so isn't this a lot like being refused service because of race?
This sets out my own thoughts on the situation as well. Thanks for posting.
Very well put
well put
Only state actors can violate the equal protection clause of the us constitution. The Muslim bakery example doesn't implicate the federal equal protection clause.
"If that Christian customer instead asks for a blank cake that they'll decorate themselves, the baker must sell it to them or else they are violating the equal protections clause."
This is an issue too though. The only person who can enforce the requirement that the Muslim Baker sell the cake is the government and the only way the government can force someone to work is through force. What you end up with is the government using threat of force to require someone to work. Which is slavery at its core. Anyone should have the right to refuse work if they don't want to.
That's not what equal protections meant though. It just meant you can't refuse to serve a customer based on their protected statuses like religion or sexual orientation.
If a church calls you to order a cake but you were planning to take time off work for a while, you could still say no. It was only a problem if you say "no, I don't bake cakes for Christians". That's not slavery. You can stop working, nobody was forcing you. Just that when you do work, you can't discriminate.
"If that Christian customer instead asks for a blank cake that they'll decorate themselves, the baker must sell it to them or else they are violating the equal protections clause."
This is an issue too though. The only person who can enforce the requirement that the Muslim Baker sell the cake is the government and the only way the government can force someone to work is through force. What you end up with is the government using threat of force to require someone to work. Which is slavery at its core. Anyone should have the right to refuse work if they don't want to.
Nope, because then you have people saying "I won't sell to blacks, if you force me sell them things I made it's slavery". And they aren't being forced to work, they are being forced to operate under the parameters our society agreed to (via lawmaking). The baker can quit, he's not forced to work there. The shop owner can close up shop, he's not forced to run that business. But if the owner wants to run that business they have to follow the laws of the land which say you will serve the public, and that means all of the public.
We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason! :D
Especially racist sexist homophobic chud dipshit fascist bootlickers.
To be fair if I see a sign saying they support Trump, GOP, or anti-LGBT I keep walking on by. I have seen many places that say if you are a bigot, sexist, or racist you are not welcome here. Those are the places I spend my money at.
Exactly. A Trump sign at a business guarantees that business won't get my money now or in the future.
I stopped going to a dentist because her office looked like Trump campaign headquarters. Signs and shit everywhere. She otherwise seemed nice and competent but hell no.
There's a pizza place in a town near me that has "Make Pizza Great Again" permanently painted on their sign in huge letters. Needless to say, they will never get my business.
There's a place near me that I was planning on eating at. Then I saw they had a "Back the Bleu" burger. They won't get my business.
Don't forget the "Jesus fish" on their logo.
I'm from out west, so it was a very foreign concept for me when I visited my sister in Arkansas and saw a lot of "Christian Family Auto" type places with Jesus swag trying to win over business.
WAIT! NOT LIKE THAT THOUGH! IT WAS ONLY SUPPOSED TO KEEP THE GAYS OUT!
/s
But that's one way to do it. No churches, no religious people, no trump supporters, no republicans allowed at all. Give them a taste of their own medicine.
This is the time when business should all be politicalised and I love it.
it's almost like a leopard ate their face. I have a relevant user name already., yay!!
People can do that now, but only for occupations that qualify as "speech". Owners of "public businesses" (i.e. places that you can walk in to) still aren't allowed to forbid entry to people arbitrarily.
MAGA isn't a protected class. This has always been allowed.
It is in some states.
Religion is also a protected class (re the pic)
For me the difference is in refusing to serve someone because how they were born vs the choices they make.
Totally ok with the later, but the laws are supposed to prevent the former. Just like it being illegal to discriminate against someone just because they are black or white or Asian or whatever.
Tattoos are a choice, would you be denied services because you have a tattoo? Or I don't serve women wearing pants, because I think they should only wear dresses.
Obviously I disagree, but I also want to point out that many conservatives think being gay or trans is a choice.
I agree with you. Isn't race specifically a protected class with the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment specifically? Political ideology or beliefs are not protected, unless violence is utilized. Please correct me if I am wrong.
A lot of the people who discriminate against the lgbtq+ community absolutely believe that sexual orientation is a choice, and I’d wager that includes the justices who ruled in favor of the web designer.
You could always do this. But you'd be a damn idiot to antagonize half a potential customer base but ... Well that's one way to run a business.
I may be misinformed - but I was led to believe this is a book shop and therefore unlikely to lose many customers
🎤🫳
the potential customers that would already point their finger at you screaming "shame" if they saw you do business with people they dislike? Good riddance.
Depending on where they're based it could be much less than half
Nowhere close to half of Americans are Trump supporters.
Even if you go by voting numbers in the only election he actually won (and even that wasn't by popular vote), it WAS closer to ⅓, and that was SEVEN YEARS AGO. I'd wager quite a few who called themself a supporter back then have changed their minds since. They're just not speaking up about it, and so the perception is skewed.
No shoes, no shirts, no service. Also no cuts, no butts, no coconuts! Lol 😆
Half? Yeah right! Even if they were half the nation - which they aren't - it's gonna be like 90% in some areas and 10% in others.
“Religious bigots get the fuck out“
Put up a No Whites signs in front of your businesses to really make some noise.
oh shit, that would do it for sure. Surely race is still protected no? If not, then I can see many a store in the south going back to the days of segregation
No, it's definitely protected.
Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Pretty sure this racist, illegitimate court, knew what they were doing in ruling that religious beliefs override protected classes, including those in the Civil Rights act. The Klan is a religion after all.
This isn't really malicious compliance. This is the very foundation of the point made by the Supreme Court. You should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason. Anything less than that is the government engaging in violence to force you to work.
Not any reason though, the case didn't change any of the protected classes like sex, religion, or sexual orientation. It just made it so a company can choose what "expressive work" they want to do, especially websites. So it's legal to say you don't want to make someone a custom website if you disagree with the contents of the website (ie a website that supports gay marriage), but it's still illegal to refuse to make someone a website because the customer is gay. You can choose what you make, but you can't choose who you sell it to
I mean - there are protected classes, right? You can't say "no whites" or "no Jews", I'm not a religious man - but where's the line between a political ideology and a religious one?
Or am I totally mistaken and this is completely permitted in the states?
That kind of discrimination is generally illegal, even after the recent supreme court case.
What the ruling says is that some kinds of business, such as designing a website, decorating a cake, or writing a song, for example, are considered speech. In those cases the right of the designer/decorator/songwriter to control their speech takes precedence.
However, this doesn't mean you can kick someone out of your restaurant for being Jewish or refuse to make a non-marriage related website because a client is gay. It's only cases where speech is involved.
The difference is that you can't choose your skin color, but you can't choose your beliefs in a different way.
In the US sadly that line no longer exists
Not just any business. The decision was specfically about what they called 'expressive activity' such as graphic designers, artists, speechwriters, and movie directors.
Just replace "Gay" with "Black" and see how awesome it sounds.
I don't think it's a smart decision. I think discriminating for any reason makes business sense nor will it win you any allies, but it should be legal. Anything less than that is the government forcing you to work.
Democrats have real difficulties with "gotchas" that the people they're "targeting" outright agree with.
There's a contradiction here. The Supreme Court ruled that Speech can't be compelled, not that you could bar certain people from a business. You could decline to decorate a cake with "MAGA", but not decline to sell a cake to a Republican, for example. What those signs are promoting is still illegal.
Forgive me, but I don't believe political affiliation is a protected class--protected classes are the only things people can't discriminate based on. So like, race, sex, religion are protected, but democrat/republican/green party aren't protected. Businesses can legally discriminate against non-protected classes. It's just usually a bad business strategy to turn customers away.
Good point.
So you can simply refuse service in any business by refusing to speak to them.
Personally I think you should be able to decline any service to anyone for any reason. Anything less than that is government compelled work.
The more I see news about the United States the less I'm surprised
Trump supporters often have manias of persecution. Wouldn't these signs feed it, though?
Probably. But if they don't get it here, they'll find it elsewhere. We shouldn't change things to mollycoddle people who are constantly seeking a reason to be offended.
I feel like "no mask, no vaccination proof, no service" should make a comeback.
I get it as a way of making a statement that needs to be made, but I'm not a fan of countering discrimination with discrimination. Makes me wonder if something more along the lines of requiring people to make a proper|positive stand before serving them could be a better approach? In this case, for instance, "we will serve only those who will affirm that they believe that all people are valid and equal regardless of their gender identity, sexual preference, race, ethnicity, or socioeconomic status." And, before you serve them make them acknowledge and agree to the statement.
Well within their right. A business can serve whoever the fuck it wants. You don't like it, don't shop there.
This is a bad take. When we, society, allow you to register as a business, we form an agreement. Part of that agreement is that you follow certain rules. We make those rules to better society.
Some rules are things like pay taxes, or don't sell outdated food. Some rules are there to make sure anyone can shop there, without discussion.
Those rules are important because it's very possible for a small number of business owners to make a group of people's lives very difficult, especially out in rural areas where people don't have a lot of options.
For a concrete example, let's say Pfizer cures cancer. Do you want them to be able to say they won't sell to Christians? You can't just "go elsewhere". But now this is allowed.
The much more dangerous part of this ruling is that the supreme Court ruled on a case where there was no standing. A lot of people don't realize that having standing is one of the cornerstones of our legal structure. Now, in theory, any idiot could sue for any dreamed up scenario and have a much better chance of winning in court.
Society needs to codify these rules into law though otherwise bad actors break those rules. When a right wing activist supreme court removes these protections, people get hurt. But, a store like this isnt doing this to hurt people, it's to make a statement that the far-rights own discrimination can backfire on them. It's a form of protest and a statement, not true bigotry. Its like using the flying spaghetti monster tactic to push legislation to be more strict on religion. These people are trying ro show that regulation on business to prevent denying goods and services is important for everyone, not just minorities the the right hates.
Gay. Wedding. Cakes.
There are already regulations on discrimination. You cannot be discriminated against for your religious beliefs. However, Pfizer could choose not to service rapists. In which case, want the cure for cancer? Don't rape. Having the option to not service someone based on their actions is very different than not servicing them because of who they are. If someone is being a dick to your employees, you should have the right to kick them out. Based on what you're saying, you think no matter how much of an asshole they are, the employees should put up with it and be their personal assistant.
All fun and games until you can't find anywhere to shop or buy anything.
You want to act like it's the odd shop and you can just go next door, but just look at history. Really, take an objective look at history.
This is what Republicans wanted after all. Remember gay wedding cakes??
Based on the Civil Rights Act of 1964, they cannot discriminate for any reason that is a protected status. However, they can makeup any reason for not serving them. That means some racist asshole could say they aren't serving the black customer because they were rude or some other made up shit. Thankfully, your political stance is not a protected status.
I can't imagine owning a business and actively promoting your willing to give up sales because of some random person's beliefs.
I fully understand consumers not shopping at a store that puts up signs you disagree with, you can just go to another one.
Nothing wrong in believing in and supporting the good things. I just think I'd not agitate customers if it were my business.
That's the ridiculous thing about this entire case. This was a web designer and bigot who made websites for married couples. There were no homosexual couples asking the designer to make them a wedding website. She had one fake web request, and the Illegitimate Court said she had a right to discriminate against imaginary people.
This opens the floodgates to the rest of the bigots who want to protest the existence of people they hate by denying them services.
Actually! There was no website. It was all made up.
She*, and she stole a real (straight, married, with children) man's identity to use as hypothetical. The whole thing should be absolutely thrown out by a higher court - the court of the people.
Also, what happens if a scotus judge is assassinated? Like for real, what if a terrorist straight up murders one? If it's the president, the vice president takes over, and if them.... There's like a power list for that. But, what about a scotus? Does the standing president just get to pick one again? Or is there a list of rank? Or is it like monarchy where the judge has a written will or a say over who replaces them? Goddamn; why do we even have this shitty system.
Some people have principles beyond "make money."
Have you read the other comments here? Every left leaning person responding is saying the same thing as the sign only against Trump supporters.
I can’t imagine owning a business and actively promoting your willing to give up sales because of some random person’s beliefs.
Read the rest of this thread. Some sort of TDS here.
Beautiful. I love it.
Honestly i would expect that a webdesigner would not wanna put up with my bullshit way earlier.
Understandable, have a nice day. but no we wanna make a scene.
Now that #SupremeCourt says we can discriminate, I'm trying to figure out what to tag content. #NoMAGA #NoRepublicans #QueerOnly #NoBreeders #NoChristians
My understanding is that businesses can refuse services which conflict with their beliefs, morals, etc, not broadly refuse to serve people
So you can't refuse someone for being a MAGA clown, but you could refuse to print MAGA shirts for a customer
MAGA clown is political affiliation, no reason you cannot discriminate on political grounds. If you said it was because they were white, or Christian, you'd be right though.
I feel like this whole thing is simply just a clarification on what was already the case. Like, a baker can't just refuse a gay person for being gay. But they could refuse to make that gay person a huge dick shaped cake because, presumably, they would also refuse to make a huge dick shaped cake for a straight woman as well. The reason the customer wants the dick cake is irrelevant; merely that the cake is a dick.
Yeah it's a new decision that's just a thin veil over hate. I wouldn't try to apply any logic to it.
But I do have a sincere belief that Christian Right MAGA Trump Supporters should be force-fed Ivermectin, have forced bleach injections, and be denied medical treatment for what they claim is non-existent Covid because I have a strong moral objection to their existence. That's not within my power.
But I do work in government and I'm going to quiet-quit any work that benefits Christian Right MAGA Trump supporters because the Supreme Court says my beliefs, morals, etc., allow me to refuse to serve them.
Nothing wrong with this. Their business their choice. Only time will tell if it was a good choice. depending where it is I dont think it will be. I think everyone is tired of the back and forth bs !
Back and forth bs? Please define
Cult 45 with their red hat dunce caps is definitely not tired of the back and forth. They don't give a shit as long as it OwNz ThE dEmZ!!!
I defend free speech, even the shitty speech by bigoted assholes, but violating a person's civil rights is not protected by free speech.
Once you cross the line into preventing someone from doing a thing just because of who they are, that's no longer speech but action. And of course the rights of business owners to serve who they want to is a grey area, but that's what we have the courts for. Unfortunately, the current SCOTUS is so heavily politicized that it seems unable to adjudicate these issues impartially.
I'm out of the loop, what did the SCOTUS do now?
We can discriminate against Republicans legally and with blessings.
Republican is not a protected class, you have always been able to do that.
A six-justice majority agreed that Colorado cannot enforce a state anti-discrimination law against a Christian website designer who does not want to create wedding websites for same-sex couples because doing so would violate her First Amendment right to free speech.
They basically said a business can discriminate. The case in question was by a bakery that didn’t want to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. SCOTUS said that was ok.
The kicker is that the claims put forth in the lawsuit by the bakery may be based on lies. The man they claimed wanted the cake isn’t gay, is already married, never ordered from the bakery, and didn’t even know he was mentioned in the court case until a reporter contacted him for comment.
This case is a web designer for wedding websites, not a bakery. The bakery thing was several years ago now.
Both rulings cute the same fundamental precedent: "expressive works"/"expressive goods" — that is, services that entail some act of creative work and/or speech, generally in endorsement.
For example, to take a less-favorable position as an example, a web designer could under this ruling post as terms of their services that they do not design websites for anyone connected with a Baptist church, because designing websites for them would require the designer to write speech and create designs participating in what the designer considered bigoted. If a Baptist group sued on these grounds, and the government said "no, you must take them on as clients", the government would be coercing a particular kind of speech from this web designer — that is, the government would be forcing the web designer to, by court order, write that speech they see as clearly bigoted.
A grocery store could not, however, say "we won't sell groceries to anyone from a Baptist church", because selling someone a gallon of milk or whatever else off the store shelves does not involve participating in any of their speech. If a grocery store did so, and a Baptist group sued, and the government said "no, you must sell them groceries", the government is not coercing any sort of speech from the grocery store owner.
That's the crux of the issue here: not Jim-Crow "we don't sell groceries to coloreds" baseline discrimination against people, but instead trying to walk the line of not using lawsuits as a weapon to coerce someone to participate in some viewpoint.
I thought it was about designing a website not baking a cake
I'm out of the loop, what did the SCOTUS do now?
They allowed a company to discriminate against a gay customer for religious reasons, when they requested to make a website them. It's important to note that the supposed customer never actually contacted the company, is not gay and had been married to a woman for about 20 years. So this was all based on a lie
The court opinion wasn't based on any specific customer, if you read the SCOTUS opinion the website designer didn't even have a business designing websites, they were just challenging the law in case they decided to make a business that did.
European here so it may not be clear to me, but I thought discriminating against religious movements like the church or trump supporters is still illegal. Correct?
Political affiliation is not protected, religious affiliation is. It's true that the Right has been doing their level best to politicise their religious feelings into public life, so that barring Trump supporters effectively excludes Evangelicals and a majority of Catholics. This may not be their desired outcome, but perhaps they shouldn't have tied their religious sentiment to political causes.
A slight majority of Catholics supported Biden over Trump, actually. Probably because Biden is Catholic; a slight majority supported Trump over Clinton.
Religions are protected classes under the constitution, political groups are not. Free speech is also protected. The combination of these factors means that weather the shop keeper in OPs photo is breaking the law is entirely dependant on how you interpret the constitution, which is what the supreme court is supposed to do.
I think the shop in question could get in trouble over the church statement if they are not doing something "free speech" related, that is the only way the new ruling applies. Though what the free speech bit means is gonna depend on what the fedsoc six want, and they will steer it to the GOP always.
Yeah, religion is a protected class, so while they can probably refuse trump supporters the sign about churches is probably illegal. If this is some type of store that makes customized products then they can refuse to customize anything in ways they don't agree with, but it's totally illegal to refuse service just based on who the customer is
Political affiliation is not a protected class. You are permitted to discriminate based on politics. Religious affiliation is a protected class. You cannot discriminate solely on the basis of religion... Until now.
Conservatives love to discriminate, but their new rulings are also making it easier to discriminate against them.
It's complicated and the implications and scope are not entirely clear.
The court stated that creative works such as web design qualify as a form of speech, and that the first amendment does not allow the government to use law to force creators to speak any message — especially one with which they disagree. Essentially, any business with something that might be considered speech as its product or service may be free to discriminate against protected classes. We aren't sure how far this will extend in practice, but I expect many will test it.
In this case of this post, it depends on what is being sold.
Edit: wrote this before my coffee and thus neglected to point out what replies said: political affiliation is not a protected class in America and these signs are a bit misleading. See replies.
I am not a lawyer.
These signs are surely in response to the recent US Supreme Court ruling which allowed a website designer to refuse to make websites for same-sex weddings.
First, churches are religious; Trump supporters are political, and not religious. In the US, religion is a "protected class", but political alignment is not. But traditionally, political alignment or part affiliation is not discriminated against, even if it is federall legal to do so. (Various states may have their own clauses making political alignment a protected class in certain contexts, I'm not sure.) Also important to this discussion is that sexual preference is not a protected class federally, although I know that many states have enshrined protection for sexual preference in their own state laws.
If a case were brought about discrimination against Trump supporters because of these signs, in a jurisdiction where politics was not a protected class, I should expect that that case would fail, under current law. But just like SCOTUS is highly political right now, lower courts are, too, especially lower federal courts. It's anybody's guess as to whether a given judge would actually adhere to existing case law.
For the religious side of these signs, it gets interesting. As above, SCOTUS has ruled that a religious business owner can discriminate against customers based on the business owner's "religious disagreement" with a position held by the customer, presumably where that disagreement does not overlap with a protected class.
And there's the rub. Religion is a protected class, so it should be prohibited to discriminate against someone for their religious position. This, however, really tips the scales in favor of the religious: the religious business owner can discriminate on the basis of their own religious belief, but no one can discriminate against them because of that same religious belief. To me, this seems to tread very heavily on the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ...
"Congress," in this context, has been interpreted by the courts to mean more generally "the government," at any level. The recent SCOTUS ruling gives a religious business owner the right to discriminate on the basis of their religion, but the right of other people to discriminate against that business owner on the exact same basis remains prohibited. Again, I am not a lawyer, but that seems to be clearly in opposition to the Establishment Clause.
All of this is interesting, but none of it is cause for concern.
What is cause for concern is the foundation of Obergefell, which made same sex marriage legal in all of the US. That basis is that the only difference between opposite sex and same sex marriages is the sex of one of the people in the couple. An argument I recall from the time was that prohibiting same sex marriage is unconstitutional, because to do so would be discriminating against someone on the basis of sex - which is a protected class. However, that does not appear to have been mentioned in the court's ruling.
No matter the reason, if it is unconstitutional to discriminate against same sex couples in the context of their getting married in the first place, it should stand to reason that it would be unconstitutional to discriminate against those same sex couples in any other context. Reason does not appear to be this court's strong suit; they have decided that the rights of religious people to discriminate on the basis of their personal and individual beliefs "trumps" (pun intended) the rights of people (religious or not) to not be discriminated against.
This is a "canary in a coal mine" to overturn all manner of previous courts' rulings: Obergefell (same sex marriage), Loving v Virginia (interracial marriage), Griswold (access to contraception), Lawrence v Texas (legalization of homosexuality), and certainly others.
Again, all of this seems to prioritize religion, which is in clear opposition of the Establishment Clause.
@Alexmitter @minimar The Supreme Court has just ruled that "expressive" businesses can discriminate against their customers. They did not pin down what "expressive" means.
The court opinion is 70 pages long, they define it multiple times. One example is: "All manner of speech—from “pictures, films, paintings, drawings, and engravings,” to “oral utterance and the printed word”—qualify for the First Amendment’s protections; no less can hold true when it comes to speech like Ms. Smith’s conveyed over the Internet"
Essentially it's already been established that the government can't enforce rules on what products someone makes, but can enforce who they sell that product to (not disallowing protected classes). The state of Colorado was arguing that making websites was a standard product that could be modified to be sold to anyone, while ms Smith was arguing that each website was a unique product that had freedom of speech. The only thing the court decided was that websites should be considered speech, so they fell under the same rules that have already applied to paintings and songs, instead of the rules that apply to groceries and car sales
I love that you mentioned the trump cult as a religious movement.
fair
my god the store looks gross what they sellin?
they handing out crack pipes
I think this is ok. It’s how the market works. If you have enough people who agree with your stance, then you’ll survive, if not, you fail. Transversely, if you are trying to make a profitable business, you remove all roadblocks from a consumer who wants to do business with you.
No, given the preponderance of white owned businesses, the way that turns out is Jim crow. You think that some store in rural bumfuck will hurt with a sign saying "no blacks, jews or gays"?
I love this! This is amazing!
Seems fair...
Ugh should have read "no sales to trump supporters or religious nutbags. Whoops those 2 are the same thing"
I mean, if you don't like them, may as well take their money off them. But rights be rights and hopefully there's no competitor nearby so at least there's the inconvenience factor.
I doubt many trump supporters are shopping there anyways. even if they are trump supporters, good luck trying to prove it before denying a sale. they dont walk around with it stamped on their forehead ;)
Well they do have their hats.
I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm, but my sarcasm radar has been right and truly fucked over the past 8 years.
That's kinda genius ngl, even tho I'm pretty sure it's only applies to creative professions
Bad example. The cases where businesses could refuse service to a customer were due to religious freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. Not liking Trump would not fall under that category. Not sure about the other example though.
In general though, I think this would be fine. As long as this business is not funded or supported by taxpayer money.
My personal religion requires me to refuse service to Trump supporters.
These "religious freedoms" cited are completely arbitrarily defined. Anyone can claim they have a religion with tenets that exclude specific groups of people or promote civil rights abuses. Having a religion that says "you must commit crime" does not actually give you the right within society to commit crime.
The more I see news about the United States the less I'm surprised
I don't have an issue with any of this. Private Business owners can sell their products or services to whoever they want. Don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, there's plenty more competition willing to take your money.
Yeah, historically that didn't work out great for everyone. There's a reason if you open a public business in the United States you are expected to serve the public.
I'm personally offended by this, but...
- Regulating my emotions is my own problem and no one else's
- The business owner is well within their rights to do so.
Just shop somewhere else.
I don't have an issue with any of this. Private Business owners can sell their products or services to whoever they want. Don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, there's plenty more competition willing to take your money.
ad for lgbt and lefty people then. they have decided their customer base.
edit: i'm not anti-lgbt just making an observation here.
Yes exactly. If Maga morons and anti lgbt people want to be able to discriminate, they should be ready to be discriminated upon.
Not cool for either party.
Because "they go low we go high" has been working sooooo well.
Playing by different rules means the fascists win.
inb4 get woke go broke, rip their business. not a good look in the bud light era
BudLight was pandering and got called on it by everyone that was paying attention. "Go woke, go broke" is clearly not a trend, just look at Twitter and Elon doing the opposite and losing fuckloads of money.
Plus 2 things
One, they specifically called their main customers assholes, essentially. Not sure what they were expecting
And two, the product is the worst beer out there. Boycotting was a gift they can easily keep going. They're missing nothing by switching to another
Who the fuck even cares about bud light? Are you twelve?
Inbev did well out of it either way, the Bud Lite boycotters were idiots for this reason alone.
