If voters bear no responsibility, do you really believe in democracy, or are you thinking about this as an issue to be solved by authority?
The self-righteousness of this discussion is a problem. Politics requires some humility, which we seem to be short of.
You are misunderstanding how the system is supposed to work.
We have a responsibility to vote, but no candidate is owed a vote.
The government is meant to execute the will of the people. That's why we live in a democracy. That means that the government is supposed to work for you. The politicians are supposed to essentially be public workers that are hired via votes of the citizens.
These public workers are supposed to be a reflection of the will of the people. If they don't match what we want, then they don't win.
No one is owed our votes. They are supposed to earn it.
None of this really addresses my question.
You are misunderstanding how the system is supposed to work.
no, I think you have the misunderstanding of how it actually works.
We have a responsibility to vote, but no candidate is owed a vote.
given the choice, you want your genitals mutilated or your head removed? if you choose nothing then you get both. technically you don't need to chose, but it's in your best interest to make the choice that allows you to survive.
The government is meant to execute the will of the people. That's why we live in a democracy. That means that the government is supposed to work for you. The politicians are supposed to essentially be public workers that are hired via votes of the citizens.
a government is not meant to execute the will of the people. a government is meant to control and maintain a society. the people are to control the government through their will to ensure the society supports the will of the people. Unfortunately, some people forgot this and have refused to participate in the will, IE voting, and have weakened our society to the point of fracturing.
politicians are not social workers, they care about maintaining control and exerting their will on the people. the job of the people is to ensure their elected officials reflect what the goals and will of the people are. Unfortunately, some people forgot this and have refused to participate in the will, IE voting, and have weakened our society to the point of fracturing.
your views on governance and politics is so antiquated and skewed you can't even see what's going on in front of you because you're so blinded by the past.
"its not fair, the gubamint should be like dis!"
No one is owed our votes. They are supposed to earn it.
no one is owed freedom, no one is owed liberty. You are supposed to fucking earn it by participating in the election and helping us move this ship away from disaster.
this election was like playing tug of war with the helm and having half of our supporters watch from the side complaining about how, "we didn't want to go this way so we're not going to stop the ship from crashing into those rocks."
at one time I had hope for the future but now I can see I was wrong. We're doomed, not by the corruption, not by the sadistic megalomania, but from arrogance and apathy that flows from lazy Americans.
None of the people clamoring for a better candidate are stepping up, or getting out there to get it done. They just want someone in power to do it, which is counter productive.
While claiming to be anarchists, socialists, progressives, leftists, whatever. I get the sour grapes, I do, but the reality is that you're going to have to get off your couch and actually organize if you want something better than the corporate handout candidates the DNC is going to give you.
For all of the awful things about Trump, it's really difficult to deny that he spent much more time and energy building a political movement than any other candidate since Obama.
This is maddening. It will never stop. The democrats refuse to campaign on progressive policies, which are incredibly popular among the entire electorate (yes, also among republicans, see the recent ballot measures in Missouri on paid sick leave and higher minimum wage, for example), instead opting to position themselves as "republican light". They completely capitulate to republican messaging on pretty much every issue (border wall, fracking, pro war, etc), and predictably lose to the people who invented this messaging. And then comes the worst part: angry libs start blaming the electorate instead of the people who lost. It's not the lack of the dems even mentioning universal health care, no it's the trans people. It's not the genocide that the current democratic regime is committing, no it's probably actually latino voters. It's not the fact that the Harris campaign asks us to pretend everything is hunky spunky with the economy, offering nothing to relieve the 80% of the population who live paycheck to paycheck. Noooo you know what it's actually white women and muslims faults. You fucking morons.
Can't wait for the 2026 anti-transgender dem ticket, and the anti gay marriage ticket in 2028. It's gonna be great.
then comes the worst part: angry libs start blaming the electorate instead of the people who lost
I feel like even calling them "angry libs" gives them some measure of undeserved credibility. Let's call them "fucking crybaby closet fascists" because that's what they are.
Try some lefty moves or keep losing Dems.
California couldn't get minimum wage, rent control, health care, it even slavery, One state moving progressively is not winning the federal election
The point that I'm making is that across the board, progressive policies are popular. And that does win elections, just look at Obamna's and Sanders' campaigns. That one state was just one extreme example of this fact.
Money.. the big donors won't let them
It's absolutely absurd how no one mentioned how regressive Harris's platform actually was.
Zero mention of universal healthcare. She acted like that concept doesn't even exist. America needs healthcare in the worst way. My girlfriend has diabetes and it's so rough to pay for it all.
She also basically sprinted backwards in terms of fighting climate change. I couldn't believe what I was hearing when she was debating with Trump and they were both yelling over each other about who was more pro fracking. Fucking insanity.
Not to mention that her border policy was even harsher than what Trump wanted in his first term. Does anyone else not remember how outraged we all were about the kids in camps being separated from their parents? But when a Democrat does it all of the sudden it's a good thing? Fuck that.
(yes, also among republicans, see the recent ballot measures in Missouri on paid sick leave and higher minimum wage, for example)
this IS true, but it is not true among left leaning candidates. Just look at florida. People are way too functionally stupid to do anything in line with what they actually want.
I believe there is even some older data to support this, something along the lines of "people like welfare they don't know they're paying for, but when they know they're paying for it, they don't want to"
It’s not the fact that the Harris campaign asks us to pretend everything is hunky spunky with the economy,
as far as economic measures go, it is. Inflation is still fucking people over, but the popular sentiment sort of lags the economy. But just because inflation is brutal on goods, doesn't mean that inflation is high, or that the economy is "struggling" it's just that people don't feel good about rising tides. Until they start to lower. (which they can't do)
it's just a human psych thing.
as far as economic measures go, it is. Inflation is still fucking people over, but the popular sentiment sort of lags the economy. But just because inflation is brutal on goods, doesn’t mean that inflation is high, or that the economy is “struggling” it’s just that people don’t feel good about rising tides.
80% of people live paycheck to paycheck. Don't bullshit me.
Why do American voters dodge personal responsibility better than bullets?
Since we are asking questions, why are you taking bullets for the DNC after making the exact same mistakes again. You wanna talk personal responsibility, where is the responsibility expectation for the multi billion dollar campaign.
That's not how this works. It is not a voters duty to vote for a candidate. The voter does not owe a candidate votes.
Giving someone your vote is like giving them your personal political power. That's why the popular vote works.
The responsibility is on the party to put forth appropriate candidates that reflect the will of the people. It is up to them to sell themselves to us, not the other way around.
In a democracy, all power is derived from the will of the people. They work for us. Not the other way around.
It is up to the party to deliver appropriate candidates that will accurately reflect the will of the people.
Under normal circumstances with two evenly opposed candidates, I’d 100% agree with you, and I think you’d be hard-pressed to find many others that wouldn’t.
But we were just given a desperate eleventh hour opportunity to save our democracy against a man who blatantly admitted he will be a dictator. That he would use America’s military against her citizens. That he wants to help Israel “finish the job.”
…and now, because of smug and arrogant third party/protest voters that cry mind-bogglingly arrogant nonsense such as;
It’s not a voters duty to vote!
we get trump. And with that, many… MANY people will lose their rights. All because your entitlement seems to have no limits and no concern for those that will be hurt in the next decade or two.
So, please. Do me a favor and at least take a bow and collectively own what you all have done. It was a hell of an effort to not act when you were needed.
When you live in a shit 2 party system and the choice is between Trump and absolutely anything else - you vote to prevent Trump !!
I’m a European lefty, so I’m probably left of Bernie. Like him I’d have held my nose and voted blue.
Unpopular opinion: Kamala was a solid candidate.
Biden was headed to a humiliating defeat. Another couple debates, and maybe he loses NY and CA and we have a Dukakis- or Mondale-level annhilation. Kamala stepped in and ran a solid campaign on very short notice. Trump didn't even have time to come up with a good nickname for her! She kicked his ass in their only debate, and he was literally too scared to do it again.
In the end, she lost by a couple hundred thousand votes in 3 states. She was wrong about Gaza and the economy, but PA, MI, and WI are credibly winnable in future elections. Kamala was not a garbage candidate.
What was solid about her? She lost to Trump of all people.
Ask Fox News, they will do their best to give you a fair and balanced assessment of her policies and-
sorry, couldn't get through that sentence with a straight face.
I think you are partially right. For starters.. this was not short notice by any standard. She ran a "solid" campaign.
I'd argue the campaign was flawed because the whole premise was flawed.. moving to the right does not help the democratic party. And the risk the Dems now face is that never trumpers join the democratic party and complete the transition of the US electoral system to a choice between maga (Christo fascism) and republican.
If the democratic party had an inkling that the victory of Trump would be as big as is now being said.. running Kamala was a doomed endeavor.. she was tainted by the Biden years.
I hope you realize this but Harris ended up in a humiliating defeat.
But it's not the voters fault! America had no choice but to vote for the rapist misogynist xenophobic fraudster traitor con man failed businessman because the woman had a nasally voice!
Honestly, yes. Kamala was the way better choice of the two. Biden kinda fell off for me the moment he did the railroad strike stuff.
But I'm not living in the US, so my point is kinda moot.
If Kamala was a garbage candidate, what does that make Trump?
For bonus points, how is it not the voters fault considering any rational answer to the above question? You may open your book to look up topical issues like peace, climate, genocide, rights, hate, juvenile bullying, criminal bullying, felony conviction, bigotry (don't miss misogyny relating to to "garbage candidate", see above), and tariffs.
If Kamala was a garbage candidate, what does that make Trump?
The guy who told voters what they wanted to hear. "I know you're upset at the world, and I'm going to make it great again."
The best Kamala could do was "I won't do anything differently from the Biden administration."
If that's all it takes, I can do that. Apparently following through doesn't matter. Though TBF, who actually follows through on most of what they say? 🤷
Turns out, lecturing the voters doesn't make them want to vote for you. Everything you said is correct, but those weren't the concerns that resonated. To quote Bill Clinton's strategist in 92, "it's the economy, stupid." Yeah, the economy is doing great right now, but you have to ask, "for who?"
I agree that right now, our economists have a terrible way of defining a “good economy”. They have praise for a set of numbers such as the stock market rates, which have almost no connection to the well-being of common people.
We need more medians and fewer averages; not to measure wealth when it’s spread among the extremes.
If Kamala was a garbage candidate, what does that make Trump?
47th President of the USA?
what does that make Trump?
The 47th POTUS.
topical issues like peace, climate, genocide, rights, hate, juvenile bullying, criminal bullying, felony conviction, bigotry
Every single one of those issues was put to measure last week and came up short to "the economy." Idpol has been the Dem's running charge since Occupy and has netted them exactly (1) election since Obama's win as incumbent. It's just not the winning strategy in national elections.
None of those issues mattered because the US system showed everyone it did not matter.
The system had 4 years to enact any form of consequences and there where none. That MUST mean trump was right and it was all lies and nonsense aimed at discrediting him.
And Trumps campaign ran on idpol this time.. is she black? Illegal mexicans in prison getting sex changes, kids getting sex changed.. you know, the counter to dem IdPol. They pulled it into the extreme and the Dems took the bait.. they did not push back.
With the blatant lies of the magas and their fragile egos.. I think the only thing that might have made a difference is call trump fat and stupid, bully him to his face and see if you can make him throw a tantrum or make him cry. Same with Vance.. are you wearing eyeliner? Would you not be more comfortable on a couch?
Trump won. Sadly this means he was the better candidate. Which damning for the Democrats because he's dog shit.
Ok...
Weird this hasn't come up before for you.
But different people have different standards.
For Republican voters, it's usually just the letter by someone's name.
Dem voters have always had higher standards than Republican voters.
For bonus points, how is it not the voters fault
Because the entire point of a candidates campaign is to get votes. And Kamala and her campaign couldn't even beat fucking trump.
For all those reasons you just listed he's terrible, Kamala still couldn't beat him.
What metric do you think a candidate and their campaign should be judged by except number of votes?
Bonus points:
Why don't you think a shit tier opponent wouldnt make it easier? And how can a candidate who can't beat trump not be considered "garbage"?
People insisting "no, Kamala Harris was the better candidate!" Are exactly the people this meme are calling out.
Clearly she wasn't. That doesn't mean she was a worse human being than Trump. That's a hard standard to beat. But she was a worse candidate because she lost the election to him, which is the one thing you need to do in order to be the better candidate.
makes me happy seeing politically intelligent people in the thread here.
These type of threads always suck for the first few days to a week though lmao.
Perfection is the enemy of progress.
I can tell that many people in these comments have given up on every artistic skill they've ever tried to learn because their attempts were never good enough right out of the gate.
Great way to put it. People use the excuse of bad candidates to dodge personal responsibility and duty. Also the people complaining about candidates are very rarely doing anything about it or stepping up, they just sit at home and wait for it to just materialize
Little bit of A, lotta bit of B.
Trump was the most garbage candidate in every way in the history of our country.
He basically coasted to victory.
Double-standards for days.
If candidate 1 is garbage, and candidate 2 loses to candidate 1, what does that say about candidate 2?
That the electorate has been primed to applaud fascistic tendencies as long as they are not called "fascist" by a 24/7 deluge of propaganda networks. The caricature of Harris painted in a phalanx of right-wing disinformation channels looks worse than the picture they painted of Trump. Reality has not had as much impact on this election as one would hope.
It's kinda crazy to me that a sizable amount of people expect a perfect completely spotless candidate, or they don't vote and hand over the win to fascism.
In a rational world, Harris would have won without even doing a single rally, because the alternative is Trump and his cronies.
People generally don't realize that the only way to get an option to the left of the democrats is if Republicans no longer win elections. But with each "punishment", voters give the democrats, the Republicans' grip on power gets tighter and tighter, with more cronie judges, more gerrymandering, more voter purges, more ID rules, and more propaganda.
So, are the voters, or rather those who didn't vote, wrong? Fuck yes, for the reason that because of them, we now have Trump as the US president rather than him going to prison like he deserves. Of course they are wrong. How is that even a question?
Good luck with shaming people into voting for you. It didn't work in 2016 and it didn't work now. Letting the DNC off the hook won't change anything.
People generally don't realize that the only way to get an option to the left of the democrats is if Republicans no longer win elections.
Absofuckinglutely wrong. The number of Democrats still buying this bullshit is astounding. THIS is why you lose so damn much.
No Democratic candidate has had more support from right leaning voters than Bernie Sanders in the last 30 years. Explain that with your model. It's not just about some smooth gradient from left to right and capturing the middle. We are in a populist age. The people are totally fed up with the status quo.
It's disruptors that win, not whomever captures the center of a spectrum that only policy wonks even care about. Anyone who's chief concern is left vs right is already a decided voter.
Way to miss the point. Against Trump, it shouldn't matter who the other candidate is. A fucking bucket of snails could have been candidate and I'd vote for it over it over fascism.
this is why you lose so damn much
"This candidate isn't left enough for me. By not voting I essentially vote for fascism". That is why democrats lose.
Would a more left leaning candidate have more chances? Maybe? No matter what, should it have mattered if the alternative is Trump? Absolutelyfucking not, but apparently it does.
During Bill Clinton's first presidential campaign in 1992, he employed a strategy to appeal to moderate and right-leaning voters, which helped him secure support from some traditionally Republican constituencies. Here are key points about Clinton's approach and support from right-wing voters:
Centrist Positioning
Clinton positioned himself as a "New Democrat," advocating for centrist policies that appealed to moderate and conservative voters[2]. This included:
- Emphasizing fiscal responsibility and balancing the budget
- Supporting welfare reform
- Taking a tough stance on crime
- Promoting free trade
Targeting Reagan Democrats
Clinton specifically aimed to win back "Reagan Democrats" - working-class white voters who had previously supported Republicans[6]. He focused on economic issues and cultural values that resonated with this group.
"Triangulation" Strategy
Clinton used a strategy of "triangulation," which involved:
- Distancing himself from traditional liberal Democratic positions
- Adopting some conservative policy stances
- Positioning himself between the liberal wing of the Democratic Party and Republicans[7]
Appeal to Suburban Voters
Clinton made significant inroads with suburban voters, including many who had previously voted Republican[2]. His moderate positions on social and economic issues appealed to this demographic.
Breaking the "Republican Lock"
Clinton's strategy helped him win states that had been part of the Republican "lock" on the Electoral College, including Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin[6].
While Clinton did not win a majority of right-wing voters, his centrist approach and focus on economic issues allowed him to peel away enough support from traditionally Republican constituencies to win the election. This strategy was controversial within the Democratic Party but proved effective in the general election[2][7].
Citations: [1] An examination of the 2016 electorate, based on validated voters https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/08/09/an-examination-of-the-2016-electorate-based-on-validated-voters/ [2] Controversy: Why Did Clinton Win? - The American Prospect https://prospect.org/power/controversy-clinton-win/ [3] In Their Own Words: Why Voters Support – and Have Concerns About https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/09/21/in-their-own-words-why-voters-support-and-have-concerns-about-clinton-and-trump/ [4] Basket of deplorables - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables [5] Governing in an Age of No Majorities: Bill Clinton's mission for a ... https://www.brookings.edu/articles/governing-in-an-age-of-no-majorities-bill-clintons-mission-for-a-second-term/ [6] Here's how Democrats have changed since the Bill Clinton era https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/democratic-party-dnc-bill-clinton-era-changes-rcna166669 [7] Bill Clinton: Campaigns and Elections | Miller Center https://millercenter.org/president/clinton/campaigns-and-elections [8] Don't understand Trump supporters? Remembering Bill Clinton ... https://kansasreflector.com/2024/08/03/dont-understand-trump-supporters-remembering-bill-clinton-might-help-you/
Its a two party system. You will not get anything close to a working progressive government until there are more then two. If the Dems win, they get a bit more corrupt and take money to slide a bit right. If they lose, they slide right to "capture" more votes/money (the money works the votes not so much).
The nasty things that get done (say under 2016 trump) are not undone by the Democrats when next in power. This makes them at best an enabler of crap policy and at worst (also most likely) guilty of using the bad actions of the Republicans to stay in power.
I don't know how at this point you doods can fix it, but you don't have a democracy at the moment. Its just authoritarianism under threat of worse authoritarianism.
why so mad bro?
Man I can hear the laugh.
I'm gonna take a wild take and say the rich and powerful who direct the campaign are at fault for the campaign failing.
You are literally saying "all they had to do was appease these people and they'd win" and somehow it's the fault of millions of random people rather than the few individuals unwilling to make that concession.
If the only reason you voted for trump as a form of ‘punishment’ towards dems, then yea that is on the voters. You should be voting for what helps you. Not to be a petty idiot.
So the action plan is what? Cull the voters? Breed better voters?
The first job of a politician is to reach and convince voters. Harris had a billion dollars and didn't do it. Yes, the voters made bad choices, but blaming the voters is not a way forward. There is no escaping that we have to figure out what Harris could have done better. More precisely, shitlibs need to figure it out because progressives already know and have been screaming it from the rooftops for decades.
People vote for single issues all the time. Sometimes its abortions, the economy, etc. But God forbid people seem disgusted at rewarding genocide and voting for harris. People saw no other option other than to either punish them by voting for the other, 3rd party or not voting at all. I dont blame them.
Cool, so, we'll see the voters in the primaries going forward, right? Unlike in 2016 and 2020, when they nominated said garbage candidates?
Who here actually votes in more local elections? Have you voted for the mayor or council members of your city? Sheriff? Literally any office lower than governor, senator or president of the entire country?
The top problem (garbage candidates) is literally caused by the bottom one (voters). There is garbage at the top, because nobody cares enough about the bottom.
Then again, it's not like Trump was ever a politician before running for president...
I am deep in MAGA country (Trump won this county with 70%). All of my local elections are single person.
Before I moved to another city, I seriously thought about running for comptroller in the small town I was in because literally nobody was currently in the position and nobody was running for it. It would have been like a guaranteed win. But then I'd actually have to do the job, and I don't even know what a comptroller does. Though I suppose it's not that important, since we didn't have one. lol
I do vote in my local elections. I think the problem is actually too much money in politics. The oligarchs support and donate an infinite amount of money to campaigns. That leaves genuine candidates with nothing and little exposure.
I think we should severely limit how much they can donate to campaigns as well as having ranked choice voting, which can help people vote for candidates they like without "throwing" their vote away.
However, the democrats didn't put up kamala against others in a primary for us to vote for. She was simply selected. Moreover, the last time Bernie ran, the democratic party basically sabotaged him. There are deep issues that we need to solve.
There are deep issues that we need to solve.
None of which will be solved by either party in its current form. Grinding out Democratic Party primary victories is the only shot progressives have in our current system. You can't change the system without supplanting one of the parties. There is no "going around the DNC" option. We have to take that shit by force.
I would have fought tooth and nail to vote for Bernie Sanders.
As it stood, we moved during the voting period. The wife and I were registered neither in our home state or our new state and couldn't vote. Where we moved was deep red and it wouldn't have mattered, but I would have liked to give a formal middle finger to the dipshit-elect.
I don't understand this "we need old people out of politics" while demanding Bernie Sanders. It's hypocrisy to just want YOUR old guy in power. I like his ideas but they need to come from someone younger does he not have a protoge or something? There's just something about Sanders that will turn off more people than gain I think. And if you can't gain the support of even the Democratic party you can't possibly win.
The voters aren’t wrong. It’s the non-voters that are wrong. Democracy should never be collateral for a protest..
EVER.
Despite everyone on Lemmy saying otherwise, people didn't stay home because of the genocide. Most Americans don't give a fuck about what's happening in the next town over, let alone in Gaza. They stayed home because they weren't given a convincing self-serving reason to make the effort to vote.
TBF if we lived in a democracy there would be no protest, because most people want the progressive policies over which they were protesting.
But electoralism has less to do with policy than narrative. Most people vote against progressive policies because the prevailing narrative paints them as tyrannical government overstep, and like it or not "socialism" is a scary word to the very people who would benefit most. You don't win by being right, you win by convincing people to vote for you. The ones campaigning on progressive policies are bad at that
This, but unironically.
Trump was so bad that in a sane world a desiccated cat turd shoukd have beat him
The fact Harris lost doesn't mean shes a bad candidate, it means we don't live in a sane world.
Yeah I agree, it's the voters who are wrong. Can't wait to see how this strategy pans out next cycle!
Honestly, the voters voted in a way that made sense, given the information they had, which was either nothing - complete and utter lethargy, or a hyper-partisan distortion of reality reinforced by a multi-billion dollar propaganda industry backed by, among many others, the literally richest man on the planet in addition to an entire network of propaganda stations blasting disinformation 24/7. The voters being wrong is intentional and has been in the making for decades.
I mean, yes, the over 70 million voters who voted for Trump absolutely are wrong. That they're mostly too willfully fucking stupid to understand that may speak to a failure in Harris' messaging, but nevertheless does not absolve them of the guilt of being willfully dumb as fucking rocks.
Harris had concrete plans to tackle many, though not all, of the issues people actually care about. People voted for the man openly stating he will make those issues worse.
It's blatantly the fault of the voters. Until you people can get your heads out of your asses and join us in reality nothing will change.
It can be both.
Um...
the voters kinda did the nominating...
Edit: To clarify what I mean. People who voted in the Democratic primary didn't exactly vote for Biden, but voted for delegates that pledge to vote to Biden at the convention. Those delegates then can vote for who they think the people who voted for them would want when Biden dropped out. The delegates decided the voters would've wanted Harris since shes the VP, and that's probably what the voter would've want.
If you argue that Biden only won the 2024 nomination because of 2020. Well yea voters voted for him in 2020 too. 🤷♂️
People need to vote in primaries.
That doesn't sound like a very democratic process to begin with cause all the power is in the delegates who can just choose whoever they want and not follow the desires of the voters. Which is how pretty much the whole system works to begin with, so its pretty rotten even at the very bottom
It doesn't sound democratic because thats is what America is. This system of an intermediate group of people between voters and the electer official is why America is the way is is today. ahem Electoral College ahem
If trump wasn't elected president in 2016, we would not even have this fascist mess to begin with.
