I have a coworker who is vehemently anti-immigrant. One of the reasons she gives for this stance is that they come to this country unvaccinated and spread disease. Guess who is also anti-vax?
Brexit was the best experiment for that. They kick immigrants out so all jobs went to the local population. People didn't want them, produce was left in the fields, deliveries were not made, tables were not waited on and some companies folded. Anyway, immigration is now back and higher than it used to be, but from other countries.
Don't forget brain drain!
Wait, so they got rid of the Poles and other Eastern Europeans they loved to hate—who are they importing for labor now?
India, China and Nigeria.
So yeah, that voting for Brexit "to keep our brown people" didn't turn out like they thought it would.
Illegal immigrants actually pay into state and local taxes way more than legal citizens and green-card holders do.
And since they're here undocumented, they can't get anything in return for paying those taxes.
I looked up the numbers a while back but this 2017 study says at least 50%, meaning the majority pay taxes.
https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-state-local-tax-contributions-2017/
Also, note that only 59.9% of households pay taxes, which means legal status isn't that important in terms of whether people pay taxes or not. They also won't likely get any social security money either.
They pay more huh? That's some magical shit right there lol
They pay more if you consider that they frequently pay SS with no payout for them.
How does it work btw? Do you come to your country's tax authority and say "hello, I'm here illegally, can I pay taxes" ?
You file your taxes under a special SSN that begins with a 9 that is given to you by the IRS specifically for filing.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/taxpayer-identification-numbers-tin#itin
Whenever they get a paycheck from a legitimate business, they're paying into those taxes.
I have SSI it pays peanuts, if I didn't have a job ontop of it, I'd have nothing.
The rules are overly strict and an absolute poverty trap. I cannot legally have 2000 dollars to my name and anything I earn through ANY means must be reported meaning I CAN'T have a side hustle.
I need to stay on the program because my health insurance is tied to it, if I ever lost it I would be physically and mentally near death within a month.
I'm one of the people they're talking about when they mention Welfare Queens
Definitely need Medicare for All. This is such BS.
Same with UBI
These are the situations I think it’s fine to fuck the government on. Do an all cash side hustle, keep the cash in a safe deposit box/in your mattress.
Though I suppose there’s the risk you get caught and fucked over by the legal system.
It’s a fucked up situation, and I feel for you. Hopefully things improve.
Whenever I see people talk about "If I could sit on my ass and get paid I would too!" I tell them the same thing -
Do it.
If you can scam your way into it, more power to you. First you'll have to spend your savings down under $2k. If you have two cars, gotta sell one. If you take so much as a few hours of work a week your check is nixed like 75%. All for, even in 2023, like $800/mo.
If you think you can live your best life on $800/mo as the type of person who thinks someone getting 800/mo is the reason you can't get ahead, I support you. 🤷
The anti-immigrant goons don't get the Schrödinger reference.
I’m not anti immigration but if you want to get into the reference it’s quite possible for two seperate immigrants to be working and taking available jobs and not working while collecting welfare. I don’t need to point out the obvious that immigrants aren’t one entire entity that can only do one thing at a time. There’s obviously instances where immigrants do have an impact on local job availability and there there are instances of immigrants collecting welfare and not working. I don’t need to point out the obvious that there are some instances of immigrants contributing more to the local economy than the local community too. This meme is actually a fairly shallow take on a complex issue, something I would prefer to leave to the bigots
They shouldn't come here (but they're necessary to run my Florida landscaping business)!
Mass shootings in the news came up a couple o' days ago at work. It quickly devolved into it's all n-words shooting eachother, because that's what n-words do.
Did you know trump is gonna eliminate the income tax once he's elected?
I hate being in a red corner of a blue state.
People at your work just drop n-bombs in casual conversation? I'm in Georgia, and even the most inbred rednecks here aren't bold enough to do that at work.
And yet the mass shooting record holder is a white guy who was shooting at a country music festival ffs...
"Damn whites always shooting each other, because that's what white people do"
I’m from a country that people wants to immigrate away. Even I do sometimes.
But at the same time I am disturbed by some actions of the minority of the immigrants who come to my country. I am leaning to be an anti-immigrant and because of that I feel hypocritical and xenophobic.
Sometimes I think it is cruel to be against immigrants because people do not choose their place of birth and their family, just like me.
I'm just not sure what is right, and this loop bothers me.
There's good and bad in every group and race. Just out of curiosity what country are you from. In some countries the news media and people in general will just latch onto anything bad done by migrants. Like in my country, Ireland, there's been much ado about a couple of cases where immigrants have committed heinous crimes but there's been very little coverage of the groups that are going around Dublin basically terrorising immigrants.
I guess you are right. I am from Turkiye and our leader, Erdogan is a pro-immigration. It bothers me to agree with him on something :)
Normally I believe in human rights but he accepts undocumented refugees from ME in order to bring the Sharia. So his purpose is not to save those people but change average society habits. I think we are different from European countries in this regard. I think Europe accepts immigrants in a more refined way.
For me everything is based on how they get there and how they conduct themselves.
I have been an immigrant to several countries and I still am, but
I had all of the proper paperwork,
I didn't sneak across any borders illegally,
I didn't overstay my visas,
I didn't pay some guy on a boat to bring me there,
I didn't commit any crimes that are worse than jaywalking,
I didn't get clumped together with other people from my country and try to impose my values on the citizens of the country I was in,
I didn't do any under the table work,
I paid all of my taxes.
These are the thing that I expect from others as well.
After having gone through the process of trying to help an Indian trans person find a job in my country in order to allow them to get here legally and having found the requirements being draconic, I don't care about anyone illegally moving to a country as long as they behave respectfully, which they most usually do because conflicts where the police gets involved are more likely to get them deported. Do I want them to pay taxes? Sure, but the extent to which they're able to pay taxes depends on the country deciding to regularize their status.
The hilarity of half this list being things natives within a country often don’t do themselves, and the other half only because they literally can’t.
The US for example has Christian nationalists trying to impose their own values on everyone else, there is an entire branch of government which exists because people don’t like to pay taxes, everyone I know has done under the table work at one point or another, and I know plenty of native born shoplifters.
But somehow those idiots are more deserving to be here than an immigrant who would be denied entry, but snuck across the border 15 years ago and has been contributing more to society than many Americans?
Get the fuck outta here with that BS.
As such lovers of free market capitalism, shouldn't Republicans want immigrants to come here and compete for work so that corporations can get employees for the lowest wages possible?
Which is ironically the classic leftist argument against free migration until the one world economy is realized. Constant immigration of low skilled labor serves the capitalist class by suppressing wages and stirring up resentment amongst the rabble so they turn on each other instead of their oppressor.
shouldn’t Republicans want immigrants to come here and compete for work
Yes, they do - which is why they do everything in their power to keep that disempowered labor disempowered by hysterically painting them as an "other" that must be repressed through every means available.
It's just how right-wing ideology has always worked.
Terking all er jerbs!*
FTFY
Derk a derrr!!!
This kind of reasoning is consistent across all forms of bigotry. Having self contradictory believes about a demographic just so nothing they can do will be the right thing for them to do.
It's especially ironic to hear that from Americans lol my house is older than your country, what "immigrants" you are talking about
Sure, we're a "nation of immigrants," but at what point does one stop being an immigrant? How many generations does it take? And if I'm still an immigrant even though my family has been here for generations, then by rights I should have a "home" country that I can easily return to, but I don't. Sure, I could in theory immigrate back to Ireland and the UK where my ancestors came from, but you and I both know that no one would ever consider me "Irish" or "British." I would always still be an "American," which brings us back to the original question of how long it takes people to stop being immigrants.
I claim: never.
You are what you are ethnically, that's it. No amount "living in America" will suddenly make you "American".
It's exactly the same for Russians for example, but in Russian we have 2 words to say "Russian", one of them implies ethnicity and the other one implies citizenship. You obviously can become "xxx citizen", but you never become the ethnicity, unless you already are.
Because I don't think we can speak of "US ethnicity", hence only "citizenship" remains. As such, anyone who becomes a citizen automatically looses "immigrant" status, even if only after a couple of years.
They move so slowly and lazily that they are invisible to the average human.
Loads of xenophobic idiots laugh at me for this, but I'm noticing a lot of migrations due to climate change. Honestly IMO it will only get worse as time goes on.
I've been thinking we should play on xenophobe's fears to get them to support actions to curb climate change.
At least their bigotry will have some positive result then.
Of course, ideally, they could be convinced that not "all brown people are bad" (sic) and also support climate change action, but we all now how likely that is.
This is absolutely possible when people receive welfare and simultaneously work without paying tax. I live in a neighborhood where people are doing this and they are quite open about it, too.
The trouble is that people either do A) deny their existence and everyone who claims differently is a Nazi. Or B) become a right winger or demand there shall be no welfare efforts.
There's an estimation done in Germany every year. And the result is always that only around 4% of the the people on welfare abuse it. Compared to the damage that is done to the state by clever tax evasion of super rich people, these are peanuts. But going after these 4% of welfare abusers is of course easier so that's why they put a lot effort into it.
A couple year ago I volunteered to a community school kitchen, funded by taxes, a lot kids didn't need the food, some leaved things they didn't like, one or two straight up throwed food in the trashcan, but for those 5-10 little shits there was always one kid who would eat all his food, and he did because he didn't have food at home, and I know what is to be hungry as a child. That program is worth every fuckin cent just for that child, and many more like him.
And how are they supposed to get these statistics?
As far as I know, they make these estimates on the basis of how many sanctions and repayments the Job Center imposes. But since it's not easy at all to get by these people and the effort isn't worth it, there is no way to say how many people are doing it.
But if you try to convince people to think smart(er) about the problem, it doesn't help to deny the reality they are actually living in. It would make more sense to show how it's the employer who makes profit from tax evasion.
Zelda
What's the inconsistency? Some immigrants will work and others will receive welfare, so you'll have more people in both categories.
I wish I knew what that downvote was for.
Low skilled immigrants are often paid less, which means they're pushing the wages down. That's one downside. Also some might consider it a downside that native born citizens are losing their jobs and in case of welfare the immigrants might be straining it more than what would otherwise be the case.
For companies there might not be a downside but for some workers there for sure are.
Well, you can collect welfare if you don't report income. You can work without reporting income. Its illegal, of course, but so is illegally immigrating.
Ironically the only people who can do what you claim are documented individuals. Either legal migrants or actual us residents. You can't get welfare without a social security number. Stop spreading fake news and propaganda to further your xenophobic views.
Reminder: Legality ≠ Morality, especially in an effective plutocracy like ours.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna54324
If your metric for morality is legality, you have a poor moral framework.
Immigrant Men work much harder for much less pay which ruins the job market.
Immigrant Women do the same, or Immigrant Women stay home.
Money made is under the table, taxes aren't paid.
They have litters of children and the amount they make cant support the 10 people in the house.
They collect welfare.
I'm all for opening the borders and making an easy path to citizenship, and I am all for increasing minimum wage for all, but this argument is a pretty dumb oversimplification.
Republicans want to build walls. Democrats just want to act like its not a thing that needs attention.
We need to work on and build an easy and cheap path to citizenship. We need immigrants paid on the books. We need immigrants demanding the same pay rates that we have been demanding. We need immigrants paying taxes.
Immigrants aren’t having ‘litters’ of children. That’s a racist stereotype. A 59% of all illegal immigrants don’t have a single child
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-population/state/US
https://cis.org/Report/Fertility-Among-Immigrants-and-NativeBorn-Americans
Also illegal immigrants don’t collect welfare. You need to be a US a citizen for that.
Illegal immigrants commit less crime, they grow almost all of our food, immigrants consumed about 27 percent less welfare and entitlement benefits in 2020 than native‐born Americans, they are not the problem
The issue is with capital owners hiring them and the immigrants being forced to work in horrible conditions because they lack the ability to collectively bargain. I do agree that we need a fast, cheap and easy path to citizenship.
"Unauthorized immigrants comprise slightly more than 4% of the adult population of the U.S., but because they are relatively young and have high birthrates, their children make up a much larger share of both the newborn population (8%) and the child population (7% of those younger than age 18) in this country."
https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2010/08/11/unauthorized-immigrants-and-their-us-born-children/
Sure, 59% of illegal immigrants don't have children. But the 41% do, and when they do, its not 1 or 2. It's a litter. A big enough litter to MORE than make up for the 59% who are doing the right thing and not rawdogging it constantly.
Welfare doesnt mean snap. Welfare means "statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need."
Here's a lazy link that is just the tip of the iceberg:
https://www.charitynavigator.org/discover-charities/best-charities/immigration-refugee-charities/
As for the rest, I'm not disagreeing with you.
I just think you are being delusional if you don't think that illegal immigrants are driving down the minimum wage.
I think you are being delusional if you don't think that illegal immigrants help business owners evade income taxes while evading income taxes themselves.
I think you are being delusional if you don't think that illegal immigrants breed at a rate that surpasses Americans with a legal resident status.
I think you are being delusional if you don't think that as a society, we spend a massive amount of time and resources subsidizing illegal immigrant families that take shitty low paying jobs and have too many kids.
Give them real help. Remove the illegal status. Help them naturalize.
Don't put on blinders. Fix the issues.
This is wrong.
Illegal immigrants pay a lot of taxes. You see, in America, we tax all kinds of goods. How are these people buying gas, groceries, and other but not paying taxes?
We also have stats and estimates for the flow of money. A lot of this money goes right back into local economies. Illegal immigrants can't even send money out of the country without institutions taking a cut.
And people who use fake identifies to earn a check pay taxes. They pay into social security. Most of the time they don't even qualify for the services they are supporting.
You know what I feel, but don't have stats for? People who speak negatively about immigrants / illegal immigrants, in general, have no idea how the world functions. Nor do they properly engage with experts who study these things.
"Litters of children" like animals amirite? Rational people don't need to dehumanize to make an argument. Dropped your dog whistle, bud.
Also, how do immigrants collect welfare without social security numbers? Is your premise that 100% are frauders?
This is a well formed counter for my tax argument.
That said, I question how many illegal immigrants are actually going through these processes as opposed to ones who dont do it because they are afraid of ICE.
Creating a registry for illegal immigrants isn't a solution.
Easy and cheap road to citizenship is a solution.
