As a fullstack developer I don’t appreciate you calling me out like this. Write an efficient SQL query you framework monkeys.
But also, this is very true.
Not understanding SQL (and in some cases NoSQL DBs) and the underlying database are a reason that so many full stack devs suck. Just because they use an ORM, they think the database work is magically solved, until they realize it’s just doing what they’re telling it to do and their lack of DB understanding has created an awful database structure. And then a DBA comes in, and then the entire ORM layer has to be scrapped because it’s trash, so on and so forth. A full stack engineer doesn’t have to be a DBA, but they sure as hell need to know what the ORM is doing to their data they are CRUDing
And then a DBA comes in
I'm convinced that's a mythical being. In my 20+ years of experience I've never encountered one.
They don't write sql they just use some god awful orm or cram it all into a nosql db.
Backend Requirements: "When x,y goes in, I want x+y to come out!" - Okay
Frontend Requirements: "Well it needs to be more user-friendly, and have this rockstar wow effect" - Yea wtf are you even talking about? You want me to add random glitter explosions, because I found a script for that, that's pretty 'wow effect' right?
Real back-end requirements: when x, y goes in (in JSON-as-an-XML-CDATA-block because historical reasons), I want you to output x+y+z+æ+the proof to P=NP.
æ will require you yo compile x+y in CSV, email it to Jenny, who will email back the answer. She doesn't quite know how to export excel sheets though so you'd better build a robust validator. No, we don't know what æ is supposed to look like, Rob from Frontend knows but he's on vacation for the next 8 months.
The request must be processed under 100 ms as the frontend team won't be able to prioritize asynchronous loading for another 10 sprints and we don't want the webpage to freeze.
And why does your API return a 400 when I send a picture of my feet? Please fix urgently, these errors are polluting my monitoring dashboard and we have KPIs on monitoring alerts.
Clearly fake. No task ever includes anything but the happy path. Loading or failure states are a myth
output x+y+z+æ+the proof to P=NP.
I'm sure there's an npm module for that.
Yea, fair enough. My point was mostly: backend requirements are usually at least objective. "Json xml comes in", "CSV goes out by email", "The request must be processed under 100 ms", "API should not return 400 on feetpics" - these are still mostly objective requirements.
Frontend requirements can be very subjective "The user should have a great user experience with the frontend"
twitches
This is fine.
I am fine with this.
Actually the front end stuff is more like "we need to make the 'sign in' button bigger. No one can click it because it's tiny, and it's in German."
I spent years as a mobile developer and the thing that always drove me the most nuts was being handed a software design with lots of tiny buttons that were nearly impossible to tap with a finger. I generally implemented the UI by increasing the size of the tappable regions (without increasing the apparent size of the buttons) making it actually usable, but one time the designer discovered that I was doing this and went apeshit and convinced the project manager to order me to undo all this and make the tappable regions the same size as the buttons. The grounds for this was that implementing the larger tappable regions would take too much extra time - despite the fact that this had already been done and it took additional time to undo it.
Man, if only backend demands were algebraically tractable. Often they're related to frontend demands that may or may not make backend sense, since the frontend is all users see.
Yeah if you have shitty UX people frontend will just built what they’re told. Or actually more often, you could have really talented UX people and management decisions are like “needs more buy now buttons, the 3 visible on the screen aren’t enough.” Shit flows downhill
Yeah that’s not a real back end
6 E Q U J 5 wow!
I can't be the only person who thinks "full stack" translates to "master of nothing." One of the best career moves I ever made was shrug off the pressure to go full stack, and dedicate myself to backend only.
I think knowing about frontend is important for a senior or higher level engineer. I would expect someone at that level to be able to contribute where necessary, and know enough to make sane decisions and know when those decisions impact backend/frontend. But to be equally good at both isn't reasonable
A backend engineer that has adequately put in the time to operate at a senior level, will more than likely have worked closely enough with FE to check those boxes. They should be familiar with technical design and processes, which if done effectively, teach an engineer to ask those questions.
"I'm capable of not making a fool of myself with UI" does not equate to "I'm a full stack developer"
As someone who likes to dip their toes into everything, I feel a bit called out by "master of nothing".
My apologies. My intention wasn't a dig at engineers themselves, but rather the trend of employers seeking "full stack" engineers, and the implications of them shopping for a singular engineer willing to do the job of multiple engineers-- IE be taken advantage of, and the first to be let go, because of a lack of specialized domain knowledge, etc.
The truth is that there is value in both a generalist and a specialist.
In my case, it was to increase the number of available job opportunities rather than any genuine interest.
My company started with full stack devs only and we've transitioned to specialized back end and front end since we realized that 1 specialized BE Engineer and 1 specialized FE Engineer can work faster with better quality than having 2 Full Stack Engineers.
Thank goodness issues respect the FE/BE break out.
In my experience, that bottom image is equally applicable when Front End devs go Full Stack lol
Frontend dev here, can confirm. Last week I had to look at some Java code and was instantly greeted by some AbstractFactoryBuilderImpl. Nightmare fuel if you ask me.
Yeah, it's accurate both ways
Most disciplines get more specialized as they evolve. Full Stack goes against that trend, and this meme points at the problem with that. I don't think it's going to last.
Overspecialisation can also suck eggs. Interdisciplinary research is trendy in science for the that reason. Even I occasionally read a paper and can see they're missing some basic fact from another field or subfield that totally undercuts their result.
I sometimes wish my employer didn't know that I can write Python code, so that I would never be assigned front-end work. I prefer to deal with programs that take lists of numbers and return lists of other numbers.
(I'm not as bad as one guy I used to work with, because at least I accept ASCII input. His backend code only took binary-encoded configuration files for no reason I can think of except maybe to punish anyone except himself who tried to use it.)
I'm terrified by this binary config file. Why?! Was he writing C and said "fuck it, memcpy"?
Edit: I suppose it would be more like "fuck it, fprintf(f, (char*)my_config_object, sizeof(my_config_object))"
I mean, python has pickle and people use that to store config. It's a weird practice, and totally unsafe, but it works well enough. This wouldn't be that different.
This meme is backwards
le front end not actual work amirite
This is the dumbest trope. It's not the same kind of job, or even very coding-ish, but all the frontends I've made are horrifyingly ugly, and I hated making them.
As a full stack developer (more experienced in back end) working on a full stack task at work I can confirm, yes, this is very true lmao.
If you hear 'full stack', run.
What I was told by a fellow student, while I was writing my thesis (paraphrased).
It may suggest the company doesn't want to hire the appropriate amount of engineers, with the appropriate expertise, and instead want a mule. It also may suggest that product quality is a low priority.
This is me.
I would say I'm a fairly proficient dev overall, though on this one project I had to work the frontend. It was shit. Everything was shit.
The backend was a steaming pile of crap, and all of the implications of terrible design decisions were offloaded to the frontend. The frontend became the source of every single delay as it was where all crap started to surface. They were ignoring it, so besides frontend communication was also crap. Eventually, in line with ignoring all other issues, they sacked me.
Long story short, backend devs: treat your FE devs well.
Both should be the bottom picture to be honest.
Guys I can’t do front-end! There was a time I was getting kinda good but now there’s too much CSS tricks to learn.
I’m currently making an app for the fediverse and my back-end is amazing but I need help even beginning to make something decent for the front-end!
This is a streaming app, and just developed the chat widget which looks good in OBS, that’s a start.
But the player? Responsible layout? Aaaah it seems impossible.
I'd suggest finding some examples or templates that are reasonably close to what you want, and working from there. It's much easier to adapt something existing with small tweaks than building it all yourself.
If you have any concrete questions, feel free to shoot me a DM :)
It’s always Patrick, so both are the same
I'm in this picture and I don't like it.
@LinearArray that 2nd image is me.
this is what starter kits are for lol
