UBI is kind of cool but it has some massive flaws. For example: Landlords and groceries can just raise prices to bring the cost of living up and since there are no rent/price controls (because "that would be communism") we'll be right back to where we started. What you want is Universal Basic Services. Anything you need to live is free. Literally impossible for anyone to game that system and equally impossible for people to slip through the gaps, but it's also never going to happen because "that would be communism"
So yeah this is why capitalism has go to, because any attempt at actually making a just and fair society will be dismissed as "being communism"
Landlords and groceries can just raise prices to bring the cost of living up
Sigh. People make this braindead argument every single time this subject comes up. No they can't. Markets do not work that way. It's literally just a repackaged argument against minimum wage and it has been thoroughly debunked in that context.
Unless you live in a city with rent stabilization, yes landlords will do that. Groceries will likely not have that problem, because of other market conditions. The first to increase their rents will be luxury apartments. Once the Internet is done laughing their asses off about $5000 rent, other landlords will use realpage to gauge the market and increase in tandem. Landlords literally do not care if their property is occupied, because the money is in the land and we've commoditized housing.
Have you seen how housing prices rose when interest rates were low? Markets work that way because consumers outcompete each other, at least in the housing market. You need a surplus of supply, like the corn market, to keep costs low.
Like @espi wrote, you need fierce competition in all markets.
It becomes more and more meaningless when you start to talk about any form of regulation or extension of basic rights. Plenty of countries are coming around to the idea that housing is a basic right. It's hard to raise prices when your competition is literally free. UBI + market regulations + basic human rights are all required. No solution exists in a vacuum and anyone who considers it as such is missing the point
So you want to tell me that companies aren't buying out competition and with a monopoly they then rise prises as they want?
Explain to me how markets work if the only company selling or renting houses is not lowering their price when demand lowers? Or when they intentionally are not renting flats in order to keep demand high?
gigabit internet should be free for everyone imo
I wish all cable cartels a very Nationalize that shit
Yeah, why TF is the internet so shitty in US? I get 500 Mbps down/10 Mbps up for $80/month. It's disgusting. I'd rather have 100 Mbps symmetric. Or better yet, 500 Mbps symmetric. My parents pay around $20/month for that, and they live in rural India. Even they got fiber, but I have to deal with fucking coax cables. The only local provider with fiber and symmetric speeds doesn't operate in my side of the town. Why does everything in US have to be designed to fuck the end consumer? It's really frustrating.
UBI is a way to make capitalism more fair. One important fact about capitalism that seemingly everyone forgot is that competition is a requirement for it to work.
If there is fierce competition in all markets, even if everyone is getting UBI, price hikes are impossible.
It's a fantasy though. An extremely competitive market would be nice, but in reality it would be a race to the bottom and those who started with more cash would win out, buy up or starve the competition and monopolise, giving them the extra space to be lazy and pass on profits to their shareholders, who dictate increased prices to increase their margins.
Landlords and groceries can just raise prices to bring the cost of living up
They already can, and do. If they do it too much, people leave that area. With a UBI, there's nothing that says you have to live in a big city, it would be easier to move to bfe, where it's always going to be cheaper. It's not ideal of course to uproot and leave, but it's possible, and it's that possibility that keeps prices somewhat under control.
unless you have conditions that require you to have quick access to hospital, or doesn't allow you to work in physically intensive labor like farms, or require certain infrastructure like elevators and access to wheelchairs, etc. i can see that working for some people, but not for everyone. and the people that would be left behind could be dramatically affected by this situation
For the very problems you stated, I'm in favor of UBI. Capital would take some time to adjust to the new system and for a moment, misery would be alleviated for a metric shitload of people. When it's ripped from our hands by greedy capitalists, it could act as a unifying, radicalizing force and bring us closer to a revolution. There's a loooot more to it than my few sentences. But a UBI given to everyone with no means testing would be an objectively good thing. And its a bit like Pandora's box. Once it's here, you can't take it away without serious social ramifications. I'll leave a couple of articles that touch on this because it's something the left ought to be taking more seriously, however I haven't had a chance to read the two of them all the way through yet. I'm at work and things just got busy but here ya go one, two
I felt like it should be paired with government contracts for something akin to a private dorm room (room, cafeteria with meal plan, laundry, computer lab, wifi, etc.) that negotiates a price that is then what the ubi is pegged at. Folks are guaranteed being able to have at least that option or can utilize it for something else.
Anything you need to live is free. Literally impossible for anyone to game that system
Let me introduce you to government corruption
I've never heard of UBS before, I hope it takes off
(I mean it absolutely will take off... in a post capitalist society. Hopefully it takes off long before then though)
You can do your part by fighting for socialized housing (tenants collectively own the property and rent goes to upgrades) and municipal cable. The rewards are well worth it. You don't have to (and shouldn't) wait around for a bloody revolution to fight back against capitalism. Every little thing you can do to wrench power from the capitalist class even something small like joining a union helps a lot if we all do it.
To be fair, it's pretty communist. The problem with anything like that in America, is that anything remotely "communist" is regarded as bad because of the cold war (and other various conflicts with Nazi/communist countries) where anything communist became associated with being a traitor. So supporting communist anything, even if it's genuinely a universal good, makes you a target for people who think you're supporting stuff like what China/Russia/former communist countries did (when they were communist).... most of the problems in those countries aren't related to communism, but rather authoritarianism that serves to underpin most communist regimes; which, bluntly put, is how most capitalism operates. Without something like unions, or organized labor, or collective agreements (usually a result of a union), the boss has 100% of the power over what you do, when you do it, how you do it, and what you'll be paid for the task. Literally a small group (aka, the board of directors and c-suite) have total authoritarian control over what happens and you have zero say in it. Either you agree to their terms, or gtfo, and find another authoritarian business to work for on their terms.
But nobody talks about the authoritarianism in modern society, people are either on the "eat the rich" or "communism is bad" bandwagon with both extremes having their own problems and misunderstandings about what they're actually fighting for and against.
I'm against authoritarianism, and in favor of Communist control (aka, for the people, by the people), and while that's a nice sentiment in the American Constitution, it's the authoritarian business owners that either make up, or otherwise bribe or own the entirety of the government. Good game everyone.
Norway doesn't have a minimum wage because the unions don't want one. They believe having a set minimum wage sets a low anchor for negotiating, and that they can negotiate higher wages without one.
Select industries do have a minimum wage for their specific field, though. And there's a legal minimum you must pay teens working in summer internships, because they're not unionized and often get lowballed.
This is probably gonna bite them in a long run when neoliberalism will chew through union power.
You can't really compare US and Norwegian unions apples to apples. They don't work the same way. In Norway they're way more mainstream, work closer with the government, and they don't employ people. There are no "union shops", and no vote to join a union. You just join one while employed directly with your employer.
You can still negotiate your own compensation, but the union may also negotiate raises for the entire workplace separately (including for non-members). In a way you could say the union negotiates a workplace-specific minimum wage.
The risk of union workers getting fired and replaced with scabs is far less in Norway, because there is much stronger worker protection. These protections apply to everyone, not just the unionized workers, but they were achieved due to unions, years ago.
I don't think you necessarily can draw any conclusions about strategy for Norwegian unions based on experience with US unions, or vice versa. They're just different beasts.
Note: Apologies if some of this is mildly incorrect, I have not been directly involved with union work in either country, and so I only have a high-level view of it all. Someone more experienced should be able to give more detailed information about union strategy in either country.
IMHO this strategy helps to prevent chewing. Workers will say "I need this union for a high wage" instead of "what do we even need these union dues for anymore".
UBI without a minimum wage promote workplaces that don't respect worker's labour, and socializes while privatizing profits. It would basically be the issue Germany had with social support before minimum wage was introduced. We need both UBI and a minimum wage.
Does higher minimum wage make workplaces respect worker's labor more?
what we need with ubi is a progressive tax structure that is across all forms of income equally. In the us the top rate is just above 6 figures and never goes higher and if its from investments it gets taxed in a different system designed for no taxes to be paid (same with corporate)
We could go back to company scrip and children in the mines. That's where unregulation would take us
Scrip is kinda low key a thing again. My SO works for wawa and there is definitely some scrip vibe. They have a company store, a points reward system, they will put you through school if you take classes that benefit the Corp, and the only way to move up is to basically bootlick management at weird company festivals.
It all has this very dystopian vibe of "everything within the corporation eco system" and my SO is a very principled women who is shy and kind and she refuses to take a step to elevate herself within the Corp, but getting a union going is pretty hard where we're at, everyone is very much of the boot tasting, welfare queen bad variety.
True deregulation would result in a form of psuedoregulation eventually.
Companies would abuse people and behave unethically. Workers would get angry. Eventually workers would organize and employers would have to follow worker demands to be able to continue operations.
Actually, I think it's the government regulation keeping together capitalism
If it goes too hard, it doesn't end well but do not give these corpos free reign over the market
I've just made an UBI community since there wasn't any on lemmy:
[/c/[email protected]] [email protected]
Edit: I still don't know how to link properly
Your second link should work for everyone.
There's got to be some conditions. How else do I control the people?
ancaps: "muh NAP"
ancoms: "please get away from our commune, thank you"
Who would pledge 10% of their income to distribute as basic income? There is no need to wait until politicians implement it. We can start immediately.
Nobody making under 250k would be paying into it and unrealized gains would be included in figuring all personal income. The ultra rich are paid mostly in services like corporate jets, meals, stocks and options. Salary is pretty minimal compared to all the other perquisites that come with SVP/Director on up to the c-suite level jobs in the top 1000 US companies.
If I made 350k all in and UBI takes 35k, I still take home 315k.
Heck, that portion of income that goes to UBI doesn't even have to count toward regular income taxes. It can be all pre-tax dollars.
The thing is, the economy works best when everyone can participate fully. Locking huge swaths of it into personal fortunes nobody could hope to ever spend in a lifetime is wasteful and puts a huge drag on the overall economy. Sure, they can pop for houses and planes and yachts but that doesn't really come close to the kind of economic power generated by millions of working poor buying their daily essentials.
Link your end with the start. The top earners don't have the income to finance it.
My point is not that UBI should be a tax on the rich but that regular citizens can finance it right now if they want it.
You hope that UBI comes for free. It won't. The majority has to pay it with higher taxes, voluntarily or not. So if they want it then don't wait for politicians but implement it right now.
Income tax in Canada, where I live, is already 15-33%.
It's already horribly mis-spent. If it went up, I'm pretty sure the country would riot.
That's why politicians won't implement UBI. But you can do, as a private person. Other countries pay much more taxes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax#/media/File%3APayroll_and_income_tax_by_country.png
Isn't that one of the five pillars of Islam?
Zakat? It's only 2.5% (can be up to 20% depending on what school of thought you follow) and it's not distributed to everyone. There's only a subset of people who are eligible in receiving zakat so it's not UBI.
Although there can be a lot of things that can make someone require to pay zakat, like income, wealth, business assets, and others.
This is a really interesting idea. Are there any case studies where this has been tried?
OK, total personal income for the US is 21 trillion so you've raised $2.1t. 260 million adults. That's about $8000 each. Can you live off that? I'm not sure I could and I own my home outright.
If it's not enough to live off, it's not UBI.
People live off one dollar per day.
The most expensive part is medical insurance. That has to come down to international standards. 300 dollars a month should be enough.
You need food from a central kitchen, about 1 dollar per day.
That leaves 4000 dollars for rent, clothing, phone and other expenses.
Why should the majority of people settle for the leftover scraps of the capitalist class? I do see that it is possible for UBI to exist within a system where the means of production is under public ownership and democratic control, which I believe is necessary for social justice. However, if UBI is ever implemented in a fundamentally capitalist society, it only means that the wealth disparity has grown so large that the capitalists, in the act of preserving their heads on their necks, allow for a crappy standard of living for the rest. Although I could see myself welcoming UBI for a multitude of reasons, I am also scared that it would entail some form of permanent class disparity with the majority of people forever impoverished.
Okay all you commies get ready for politics 101
First don't rely on morals to make your argument. It, unfortunately, does not change capitalist minds.
Second, frame your argument in capitalist rhetoric. For example you can say, "UBI is important to stimulate the economy by enabling Low-Income-Americans to spend more on essentials."
Seriously, not joking, this is how you change people's minds.
No argument from me
I am a libertarian. One thing I think people of all political stripes need to do is to start judging policy proposals by their outcomes and stop judging policy proposals based on their intentions. So you want minimum wage because a higher minimum wage will lower poverty? But is raising minimum wage the right way to achieve that goal?
Here are ten studies that provide some evidence that raising minimum wage does a poor job of lowering poverty:
See the thing with every policy is that it creates unintended consequences. If you tax gas, gas becomes more expensive and the price of food goes up, if you add zoning regulations it makes it harder to build and house prices go up, if you raise wages through legislation (even though we all want to make high wages) that raises the costs to businesses and they have to raise prices or reduce labour at the margin. This has the effect of helping specifically minimum wage workers but for people without a job making it harder to find one. In the long term prices will go up to make minimum wage feel like less than it used to, necessitating the need for constant minimum wage increases. Do you really want to be fighting the same fight all the time over minimum wage only to have it raised when it’s far too late and most people are already making more than the minimum wage? What a waste of political will.
IMO UBI is a great option, Milton Friedman was famously very pro-UBI, but also need to be sensible about what regulations and laws we are passing and use a science and evidence-based approach, not one that sounds good when you first hear it.
The argument "you don't need ubi in a non-capitalist world" doesn't work in a capitalist framing
That's why the developed world is taking about universal basic income and not minimum wage. Guess the US will get there at some point too. If they stop falling back into the dark ages at some point.
We need a UBI and medicare for all.
And we need the minimum wage to be double a living wage
Was this crossposted to (or linked) somewhere? It's getting traction despite being about 36 hours old
UBI has failed everywhere it has been tried. It only works in your head.
How about you actually go read the reports.
Leftist memes be like
Hell yeah brother raises fist
Yep..
