People bitching about Lemmy.world blocking piracy instances sound like spoiled teenagers with no consideration of consequences
Humans who run instances are real people who have jobs and mortgages and kids. I also like having piracy communities around to balance the greedy ass corporations trying to control media and copyright…I’m glad to know they are there if I need them or feel like screwing around with it. I just wonder if the people ranting all indignantly acting like instances are competing for their usership would feel the same if the most active instance was on a server physically sitting in their basement, or paid for by money tied to them in the real world. Yes it seems pretty unlikely that you’re ever going to run into issues with law enforcement, copyright claims, lawsuits…but how much would you risk for a fucking hobby you do for free? Would you risk your house? Your job? I would not. Grow up. No one cares what instance you use.
people confuse defederation and community blocking (in this case, it’s the latter)
This seems to be a big one. LW admins were actually fairly light-handed on this one. This isn't a discussion of defederation but people are acting like it is one.
I'm just grateful to see that just when folks were beginning to doubt if Lemmy could actually serve as a Reddit alternative, we've been able to prove that we're equally if not more adept at insular slapfighting over petty bullshit and assuming the worst about others' intentions.
I'm pretty sure someone was being a dickbag to me like, the day I joined, so it was basically a seamless transition from reddit. Though honestly, the last time I was on any kind of public site without anyone being a shit was when I moderated a forum a decade ago, at least up until we passed maybe 200 users. I'm pretty sure that's about the limit before someone has to act up.
Lemmy ultimately can't serve as a reddit replacement, but not because of the people. It's the technology that won't scale. If we took all the slapfighting that reddit had to offer, every instance would crumble trying to replicate a million snide and argumentative comments.
I’m still consistently surprised that so few people seem to have realized that you can just make an alt on another instance that federates with blahaj (or the instance itself) if you feel like it.
And as to the server owner: they’re doing this with donations and out of the goodness of their hearts. That kinda gives them the right to run their server as they see fit. If you don’t like it… either find another instance, make your own, or shut the fuck up.
Not super user friendly to have to be constantly switching instances if an admin does something you don't like, but totally agree that these are just the trade-offs that are made when you choose to use a free and open source software
But like, it’s a fundamental characteristic of the fediverse.
This place isn’t for everyone. If someone can’t eventually wrap their head around the concept of separate instances with distinct and sometimes drastically different administrative standards, and that alts are a reasonable and correct solution to (de)federation/network fragmentation… well, this probably isn’t the right place for that person.
Not to mention it's not like Reddit where they're doomed to their fate. The fedi is literally designed to get around this. That's the whole point! Swapping instances is absolutely free. Though it is a bit of a pain without official migration tools so hopefully that gets fixed soon.
Yeah but the point is that it should be like Mastodon where it's built in. Or at least with Lemmy, it'd be more appropriate just to be able to import/export your subscribe list, blocks, and settings.
Glad we have that tool 👍 but it's not a full migration to my knowledge. I don't think your post history migrates with you, for example. Just one ramification of that is if someone replies to an old post of yours, you won't know on your new instance.
Also folks that have established communities on an instance (shameless plug for [email protected]) can't uproot and move it to another instance (yet).
I agree with your unpopular opinion but also think the people should feel free to bitch if they want to. I’m just happy to be here not giving dollars to Reddit.
I'd just rather them have an actual point than just complaints .Like how in their understanding are the instance runners in the clear when it comes to copyright laws. Like an actual point. Or how are they going to help the instance if there were to be legal trouble.
A bit of looking makes me think the admins have a legitimate concern here. Platform immunity in the EU isn't quite as strong as it is in the US in general, and it's specifically weaker with regard to copyright.
A successful copyright lawsuit (maybe even an unsuccessful one) could bring down the whole .world network, which hosts multiple federated services for many people. There could be personal liability for the admins as well. The admins should try to protect against outcomes like that, and the EU should probably strengthen its platform immunity laws.
And again, they're volunteers, they're already doing a service and they shouldn't be forced to take legal risks they don't want to.
It's really annoying how lazy people are, the solution is to just have multiple accounts. It's two clicks to change accounts but those lazy mfs have no response to that except that they don't want to.
On top of that, they've been dealing with an ongoing DDOS for weeks. Is blocking piracy communities the response most of us want? No. Is it the best solution to get the most out of limited volunteer resources right now? I think the case for that is strong.
I think this is the right take. Americans have Section 230 (for now) that quite broadly protects communications platforms from liability over what 3rd parties (users) post to their platform about Piracy. We also have the 1st Amendment which more or less protects anything you say short of direct, specific calls to commit crimes and some types of slander/libel. It's why we can say goofy shit like "now I'm not saying you should do this or encouraging anyone to do this, but if you were going to anyway here's how:..." and then talk about how to commit crimes, and get away with it. Because we're just talking about it right? No one is saying "now go do these things at my direction" we're just sharing information, innocently, not telling anyone to act a certain way...
In the EU, not so much. They have "methods and means" rules that can get platform owners in trouble for 3rd parties just posting about BitTorrent clients or providing advice like "Google X if you want to find Y" on their platform if it's smells of possible piracy. We're so used in the US to just being able to disclaim everything we say that this is a bit shocking. But talking about tools and techniques, even if you preamble with "now don't ever use these for piracy bros, ok, I don't advocate for using this advice in that way" is not going to save the user or even the platform owners from trouble. It is not just about posting direct links to pirated content or hosting/torrent sites. Maybe a point that is little-understood in the threads I've been reading on here about this.
Not sure where LW is hosted, but successful lawsuit absolutely doesn't matter, just the existence of one. You spin up a server, host your instance, and any corp with their army of lawyers decide to sue. Just stop and think about what a pure hassle and the cost of even responding to the suit is. You're probably in for a few grand and dozens of hours just on having a suit leveled against you. They don't have to be morally right, legally right, they don't have to to win, these companies can ruin lives and it's just a Tuesday for them.
You basically said what I meant by this post without being an asshole like I was
If I ran an instance and there was even a fraction of a percent of a chance I could get ruined financially by some media company whose lawyers have a slow day…I might either shut it down, turn it over to someone else, or take some possibly overly cautious steps such as…what we’re talking about. We wanted social media that isn’t controlled by corporations. We got it except uh oh that means we don’t have lawyers like Spez, Zuck, Elmo have piles of.
You’re probably right. I was venting. Didn’t mean to offend anyone but people were getting silly with their outrage and felt like lots was misplaced, immature, short sighted
This is the main problem here - the site is explicitly and legally run by a specific set of humans. Not by LemmyWorld Corp. Not by LemmyWorld LLC, but by “Jelloeater” et al. TBH this is a dumb idea. I don’t even run my own personal website as myself, let alone a forum with third-party content.
Having the admins and operators spend $50 for an LLC filing would shield the operators from most of this personal liability, even if the site itself would still be at risk of action.
An LLC registered with what government…Finland? Maybe a non profit would serve this purpose but then you have to have a board and meetings. Sounds like a lot of work.
Since the domain is registered in Finland, presumably it’d be created there. If an LLC has a single owner, you don’t need to have board meetings or anything. The sole owner would be whoever owns the website registration.
The real issue is that LW has become the de facto front page of Lemmy. No instance should have as many users/communities as they do. It gives them too much power over Lemmy. They could probably kill many instances if they decided to defederate from them.
100% agree. The system wasn’t designed to have a few massive instances…many, including myself, didn’t understand at first and thought Lemmy.world was… Lemmy… Much better to have dozens to hundreds of smaller ones and have a few accounts here and there. It’s probably good for people to realize no one controls the fediverse and separate themselves from the idea of even having a “home” instance for all uses. Maybe.
I'm having issues registering on others atm. Lemmy.ml said it was closed when I attempted. Lemmy.dbzer0.com appeared ro let me sign up, sent me a verification email, which was accepted, but then every login attempt just cyclew and reloads for me. No error message. Reset password to verify that it was an account, got email, reset password successfully, then same thing.
For something I want to be casually doing, it's kinda annoying.
Edit: dbzer0 just needed time. I saw a mention of authorization, but I guess I just assumed that would happen before the verification email. My bad.
They probably could but if they do so without cause, then likely they will lose users and have others defederate from them, too.
I think when it's easier to migrate accounts between instances, were more likely to see more movement. I had an account on Lemmy.workd and this one. I was hesitant to abandon the world one as I'd already curated blocks and subscribes. It felt like starting over, doing so again elsewhere.
There are now tools to automate but it's not as simple as it should and likely will be and those tools aren't baked in.
I imagine that if that instance is flooded with new users and continues to grow, niche communities may become even more attractive as irrelevant content overpowers what many users want to see. It's also good that new users have a place like that to easily find content, even if it's broader than what will make for a long term community with adult discussion. Both kinds are good.
The only reason I picked Lemmy world is it was one of the listed communities on the Lemmy instance list. It listed by user numbers, so it's likely to stay there, if that website continues to be just a list of instances. The advice is to pick an instance that matches your interests, but few instances are purpose built for that. I'd want to trial Lemmy as a new user before doing that level of research.
I'm glad the LW admins have the foresight to consider things like this and other areas of concern. It's good to see LW admin admit when they don't know enough about something and are being cautious. I don't think Discord should be the place for any announcements though. Hopefully LW can get the legal protections or assurances necessary to host all of the content people want to see.
LW already came out and said announcing on Discord was a mistake (as in, they didn't mean to do it in the first place, rather than meaning in hindsight it was regretful) and it won't happen again.
Yeah that was not a great look, and a large part of why I run my own instance. The professionalism of a sites admins has a large affect on the community as a whole. You want people at the top that don't have massive egos.
🤣 I find it hilarious on these threads, no matter how petty, immature, misguided, overreaching, spiteful an action is, someone will post "understandable"
I mean... The piracy communities have very useful links to wikis all about how to sail the high seas...
Don't get me wrong, I don't really have any skin in this game, I dabble in a bit of piracy now and again, and am broadly pro having a community for people to chat about it although I don't myself.
But at the same time when a community description has a link to a page with comprehensive lists of the best sites to download/torrent from, including a cute little goat emoji next to the best ones, let's not be disingenuous. (That wiki is terrific btw)
If theoretically someone did decide to investigate you for having links to lots of legally dubious information available on your instance I don't know the law in other people's countries but in mine it wouldn't be worth the hassle or attention. I say theoretically because at the moment Lemmy is probably too small to get attention but still.
I can see why people might want to play it a bit on the safe side if they're not sure if they're going to get into trouble over something or not.
If someone really is that upset, create your own instance. Find an instance that agrees with you and swap it. I'm not anti-piracy, but this seems like a fundamental difference between you and Lemmy World, that essentially means you should find a different instance.
(or go create an account on a piracy server and here if that's what it takes)
She punishes bad mods but does NOT block any communities with shitty reasons as Lemmy said.
Lemmy devs said "Just an instance did. Lemmy is not evil!" as it were someone else's issue, and blamed Reddit somehow.
Then, did other lemmy instances de-federate lemmy.world? Did Lemmy devs blame lemmy.world? No, no, and no, they did not! This problem is not about an instance but Lemmy platform. They did not understand that SNS is not a playground for blocking-all-he-dislikes kids. This act will kill themselves as R*ssia is doing now.
I'm so tired of the "just change instances" argument that comes up every time mods make a bad decision. It's as bad as "just watch something else" for movies. Like yeah, literally everyone recognizes that you can choose how to spend your time, but that fact isn't a magic buffer against critisism.
I understand that but also I can change instances in two clicks on an app once I’m signed up. I was going to post this one with my world account but it was going slow so I switched. Same two clicks to view piracy or porn. Yeah it would be easier to not have to but I understand why someone would simply choose to not fuss with it. Running these things is basically a hobby.
Imagine if you were invited to a party at a friend’s house…well, this friend got mad when you started lighting off fireworks at midnight and waking his neighbors up…this friend makes you take your shoes off when you come in their house. This friend doesn’t want you to watch porn because the kids are playing video games in the other room. Well it’s a free country right, why can’t I light off fireworks? As your friend I want you to have fun at my party man, I really do…that’s why I invited you…but my neighbors will call the cops and I have to deal with then in the morning. And my wife will kill me if the floor gets all scuffed up. If you want to leave the party because of that I’m sorry.
Gotta love how it's somehow simultaneously "I'm so annoyed everyone's talking about it" and "nobody gives a shit". Make up your mind. You don't get to have it both ways. Maybe you don't give a shit, but a lot of people do, and they want to discuss it. Not everything is about you.
Everyone should switch instances, but not because of this stuff. LW is just too large right now. The fediverse wasn't designed to have so many people in one place. Communities were supposed to spread out and build their own specialized instances. This attempt to recreate reddit on one instance never should have happened.
Piracy is the second thing every social network has to make an effort to remove. The first one is child porn.
As free speech as everyone's intentions are for the most part, you can only be in that fight so far as your pockets allow. If you believe you are legally untouchable, then go for it. But you're probably not.
I don't want to take away from your point, but I read parent's post differently. They were just stating a fact. No moral judgement being passed, no stating this one thing tied to the other.
Your point still stands, but seems a bit misplaced in this particular discussion.
I’m not sure anyone is arguing that piracy is bad…not that I’m seeing anyway. Maybe some think that blocking the piracy instances is a moral stance of some kind but personally I’m verrrrrry sure it was not about ethics but about risks posed. People can say oh well its not a problem just to be talking about piracy but lemmyworld is run by a middle class guy with a few thousand $ in donations and it would be nothing for any copyright holder to ruin his life on a whim.
It's a shame the bandwagoning didn't stay on Reddit as people migrated here. I really wish upvotes and downvotes weren't displayed for anyone, maybe then people would act more civil.
How is this opinion narcissistic? I would say the community that's main focus is ripping of content creators while freeloading off of paying consumers are the narcissists. I pirate too but I don't pretend it's some noble venture.
That was a really good read. It explains why the internet since "Web 2.0" is getting so controlled by a handful of large corporations. It's basically impossible for small organisations to moderate and comply with all laws in all countries. Especially when a significant subset of their users are intentionally making it difficult.
I get where your argument stems from, and I do agree with it when it comes to actual file hosting. But lemmy instances don't host any files other than images. People are only talking about piracy. There isn't anything illegal going on, risking liability by letting people discuss shit.
I find it far more compelling to focus on the argument against the whiny people that the community was in violation of the rules established by the instance the entire time it existed. The instance didn't change the rules all of sudden, it just decided to enforce them.
It's not the end of the world. Make a new instance. An instance specifically devoted to piracy. Then you can do whatever the hell you want because a pirate is free.
I like this move from lemmy.world since too many users have seen it as the default instance to make communities. Was the reason why I was glad when Android from reddit came here and started their own instance. Communities being spread out so there isn't a single point of failure is nice, and it's only a few communities affected if you decide you don't want anything to do with them for whatever reason. So this has led to good reflection.
I do not think there's much risk to hosting a forum talking about piracy, even less so when your forum is simply connected to it.
Im personally not a big fan of defederation. It just seems to split the user base, it's extreme like cutting your arm off to avoid some poison ivy. In the end, it reduces the amount of users a post gets too and reduces the number of comments and general engagement. It has its place and I don't think this was it.
It's also annoying to have to create different accounts. I didn't quit Reddit to start using 5 different mini reddits one at a time.
Well, they didn't defederate. The just blocked piracy specific communities, not instances. The instances are easily accessible, you just can't got to the piracy communities on them, from World
But for a copyright pov they are even worse that piracy communities (I have nsfw turned off here, but in reddit it was full of people sharing copyrighted pictures).
You may not have much experience with spoiled teenagers.
Voicing ones opinion without regard for the people involved, just because they're allowed to have one, is pretty much the spoiled teenager MO. Just like not realizing this goes both ways.
“I’m DELETING my lemmyworld account!” To me sounds teenagery because it seems like the person doesn’t understand how anything works…legally, financially, etc
Haha I don't mind people cussing, and I'm an eternal teenager myself so this can't insult me (I don't know what's wrong about being a teenager anyway). But it's a bit hypocrytic to bitch about someone else bitching.
Ok. I’m cranky because my kid missed the bus today and work was stressful and it just reminds me how the dude who made world is also an unremarkable middle aged white man like myself. Someone has to be a grownup and pay the bills, that’s all, and if you are losing your mind over world blocking piracy then that someone most likely isn’t you.
Why are you so mad that user are mad? These people made a new home (free of corporate oversight (fuck spez)) and now corporate bs is leaking in and we are pissed. Makes sense to me. Seeing the mods mock users asking questions is asinine.
So I switched instances, which was mildly inconvenient.
Nobody gives a fuck about you kiddo missing the bus mate. Maybe keep it in your lane. Don't post if your home life is so rocky that you sound like a chud.
Talking about finger pointing without actually breaking down their argument doesn't seem constructive and makes you sound like op hit home with their description.
It is their instance at the end of the day that people are being invited to use while they take on the cost and risks of running it. There's no ads here no monetization plans, so they can come up with whatever reason they want to defederate with them not being some company.
I just don't feel there's the same usual expectations and demands of a normal monetized website with how it is just some random people's instance we are using. Self hosting is the only way to truly have control, but when you're a guest you just have to either accept the rules or move. We can't exactly say we are paying customers.