I don't see a problem with it as long as no trafficking is involved.
I agree with this. I have found that most women do not however. It has been a great trouble for me, to talk about, when trying to find a new partner.
This is pretty surprising to me. In my experience (as a woman myself) women are much more likely than men to be vocally supportive of treating sex work like any other service and of breaking the taboo of offering or receiving those services.
I actually can’t think of any woman in my life who would judge someone negatively for seeing a sex worker (assuming full consent from all involved parties including partners). Most men I know would similarly have no issue with it, but a handful would read it as not being able to get laid and see that as something negative.
My social circle isn’t representative of the general population, but I’m still surprised to hear your experience is dramatically different. I wonder if the way the conversations are going make the issue more about consent, cheating, or other non-sex-work-specific ethical questions.
Then they are not worth your time
Yeah it should be legalized.
What people do with their bodies is their own choice.
So long as everyone involved consents sans coercion, I do not see why anyone else should care/be involved
This is pretty much my view on people's sexuality generally.
I don't care who's doing what to who as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.
Does getting paid still counts as "sans coercion" though ?
There's a huge difference between picking up a streetwalker, going to a legal brothel, or answering a personal ad in places like Canada where it's a grey area if it's legal
Like, off the street there's probably some coercion somewhere, legal brothel it's less likely they're forced to do it but it might still be trafficking but there's likely at least some form of oversight, and personal ads are a total crapshoot. It might be someone who's selective and just making some money, it might be someone that has to accept every offer.
When things arent 100% legal, some shady is statistically just going to happen. You can't regulate an illegal business.
Is everything done in exchange for money coerced?
Negotiating a price is not itself coercion.
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
However, I don't live in that world, so in the meantime I support sex workers, because sex work is work.
The men who use their services? That's a tougher nut to crack.
My partners brother is heavily mentally disabled and pushing 40, he's still very much like a child, but obviously does not have a child's libido. This man has never had an intimate interaction with a woman. He might never get the chance, he struggles to talk to women, even women who have similar issues as himself. I think sex workers could be beneficial for him, in the right context, for giving him intimacy he may otherwise never experience. I don't think he would ever think/know to pursue a sex worker, but I could be wrong. There's also the issue of his emotions began to be involved, which leads me to...
I'd be more worried about him finding OnlyFans and blowing through all his disability money each month instead of realizing he's not actually getting much out of such a "relationship." He's the kind of person who a parasocial relationship like that could really damage their already troubling mental health. The same thing could happen with a prostitute, but they are less likely to hang the relationships on fake social cues that say they care about you. He's not quite advanced enough to understand that these women are being paid to pretend to care, I don't think.
Also, there's other types of men who use these services I'm sure aren't a net positive. There are plenty of conservative men who already view a standard relationship as a sexual transaction (I take care of girl = she give me sex), so they're not far from viewing everything women with transactional already. Secondly, not only do the already view it as transactional, many of these conservative men turn to prostitutes because average women simply don't want to date them because of their horrible, outdated views on women's bodily autonomy. They are already angsty and moody because of women not wanting to date them, and they often are willing to take out their frustrations on the woman they paid to serve them. I see these men as not respecting and hurting the women they turn to for sex work.
Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the subject.
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
You see, that's the problem. You are implicitly devaluing sex work compared to other professions. You're not acknowledging that some people actually want to, and choose to do sex work. There's nothing wrong whatsoever with someone choosing prostitution, stripping, escort, etc.
Could you say your same statement about being a lawyer? A teacher? An engineer?
"I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to being an engineer."
You see how weird that sounds? So why can you say it about sex work? Do you see how derisive you're being toward it as a profession? Funny that you say you're supportive while implying that what they're doing is a last resort...🤦♂️
I wonder if there's a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn't have time or possibly doesn't want an intimate relationship.
I don't know if it's "right" that this type of person pays for sex. I think it makes sense as long as they respect the person that they're paying and understand this person does not 'belong' to them - but this last point appears to be a problem for people whenever they pay anyone for anything.
There's plenty of other types, those were just the ones I had time to write about before I pop off to work for the day.
Your comment led me towards an amusing thought: in the Harry Potter universe, goblins sell things to wizards for the duration of the wizard's life, but then they expect it to go back to the goblins because ownership works differently for them vs wizards. Wizards don't always/usually understand or respect that. So... If I ever was in the position to open a brothel, perhaps I'd name it "The Goblin's Den." I... Don't know what kind of clientele that would attract though.
I wonder if there’s a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn’t have time or possibly doesn’t want an intimate relationship.
That would be me. I work 60 hours a week most weeks. I just want regular, casual, no strings attached sex.
Unfortunately I can't actually afford sex workers, but some day...
Thank you for putting what's pretty much exactly my view on the topic into words.
I would like to add though that I expect of men using sex services to thoroughly check and make sure that the women whose service they use provide this service by their own choice, which means they are in no way forced, not by pimps but also not by financial hardship.
With this constraint I'm afraid that many if not most existing sex services are actually probably not ethical to use.
If the sex worker is consenting without duress and is being treated well (I recognize that's a big 'if') then I'm fine with it. I have no inherent objections to sex work itself so it would feel like a double standard to judge the people who use it.
Unfortunately the moral waters are muddied by the rampant trafficking, drug abuse, etc. within the industry.
And traffic and abuse is ramped up by moral muddiness. It's a vicious cycle
We pay for everything else. A professional is a professional. Mechanic or prostitute. It's a mutual transaction. Regulate it and make sure it's safe. When ai porn blows up there going to be a lot more sex workers.
When ai porn blows up there going to be a lot more sex workers.
How?
The only job left will be fucking each other, oh no what a dystopia.
I'm assuming more adults wanting the real thing
"AI porn star does amazing things with her 16.5 fingers."
My opinion on them is the same as whatever opinion the sex workers have on them
If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
Yeah this. And until I find out, unfortunately my mind goes to the stories I’ve heard. I know that’s uncharitable in the same way that it’d be uncharitable to do the same thing but replace sex work with grocery work or any other mundane customer service job. But yeah that’s where my mind goes
I don't see why it's any of my business. It's like asking what I think of men who go to the gym, or like lettuce on their sandwiches. It's just another normal thing people do in life.
Sex is a very normal everyday thing that many people need to feel fulfilled, and the sex industry is great to fill that need. People like to bone. It's none of my business, and because I'm not a Catholic from the 1800s, I don't think it's deeply wrong or sinful.
The only issue is that it's not regulated enough, there aren't enough protections in place for the workers or the customers.
Logically, if it's two consenting adults, why not?
Personally, fucking ew.
Overall, if you are single, you do you! If you have someone waiting at home, go fuckin sort yourself, never be a cheater.
Let alone cheating, you don't want to catch something and carry it home. So yeah, cheating sucks.
What is your opinion on women that make use of sex worker services?
Shouldn't you start a new thread for this?
I'd probably be called a sexist pig tho.
I dont care
So long as they treat the women properly, and said women is not being forced to work as a sex worker.
I have very mixed feelings.
On the one hand, I don't think that there's anything inherently immoral about sex work.
On the other hand, a large amount of sex work is not voluntary and consensual.
There are a few sites where (legitimate) sex workers can advertise. Prices vary considerably, but you'll typically see prices starting at $400+ for "full service". They typically have specific limits laid out, what things they do and don't do, and usually require some kind of screening for their own safety. If you go to sites where clients can review sex workers, you can find listings for $50-$100 for full-service sex work with "new girls", frequently Asian. These women--most of the people exchanging sex for money are women---in those listings do not screen clients, do not have pre-stated limits, frequently do not require the use of barriers, and always work for an "agency". It is clear to me that these are not women that are doing sex work consensually. People that frequent these sex workers are complicit in their abuse. (Willing sex workers can and do work through agencies; that makes their client screening less onerous for them. But they still have clear limits, and not rock-bottom prices.)
Given how many women, esp. at the lower end of the pricing spectrum, aren't doing sex work consensually, I would not have a good opinion of a person that chooses to use them. I could not accept someone that knew that they were trafficked and didn't care, or chose to ignore the probability that they were doing sex work involuntarily.
I would have no opinion either way about someone that chooses to use a professional domme; that, at least, is a segment of the market that's unlikely to involved trafficked victims.
I find it weird that someone would want to have sex with someone who obviously does it only for money.
Now that you mention it, isn't it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that's a question of culture, but it's entertaining to think about nonetheless...
Like, there's definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I'd say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:
- Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
- Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
- Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
- Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)
I posit that there's something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?
I think the reason is that for some people sex is not the same as any other activity you can do with your body and I think it’s not just culture but actually a neurobiological reaction.
It’s probably just odd because we know awfully little about how our brains, our hormones and whatever feelings are work. And sex is really one thing that taps into all three of these areas we don’t understand yet.
To give you another example, we can’t really explain why some types of torture are so devastating to us.
We value interactions differently because we intuitively want to be careful with things that could potentially influence us in major ways. Personally I believe buying sex feels so uncomfortable for some people because for them bonding and intimacy is connected with it. That clashes with buying it from a stranger. Also it seems kinda pointless or deranged then. Like buying a birthday party or a Christmas Eve with strangers.
Do you not have a concept of personal space? Having a person you don't care for literally inside your body is rather different than serving them a meal. Do you think that forcing someone to give you a haircut is the same as forcing them to have sex?
Personally i don't understand how anyone can enjoy having sex with someone who isn't into it. The whole idea is repulsive and i think anyone who enjoys that must be very lacking in empathy.
I have considered it for exactly that reason. My family is healthy and happy except for that my wife completely lost her sex drive after childbirth and finds sex not just to be a chore but to be completely revolting.
I don't want to tear my family apart just to get laid. I'm not interested in loving some other woman or having an affair, I love my wife and my daughter and I have no need for another relationship.
However it's been years of celibacy and what I do need is sex, but without romance and with a professional who as they say "you don't pay them for the sex, you pay them to leave afterwards".
I've known sex workers who do it because they love sex, and if they're gonna be out there having a lot of sex they might as well also get loads of money from it.
To be fair, about half of them then got into drugs and started doing it to keep up their drug habit...before the drugs they were very choosy about their clients and only picked the ones they liked, but afterwards they needed more money so they dropped standards.
But the other half were just getting paid to go on dates and have sex, which is what they'd be doing anyway.
I don't hire sex workers because I don't have the money for it lol. But if I did, I'd want one like that. I have no idea how rare it is.
I love my customers
Safe. Sane. Consensual. Pretty simple. If money changes hands, whatever. Don't be a dick and no means no. In fact, until there is a yes, you cannot assume there is consent. I digress...
I know you probably mean prostitutes or "escorts", but aren't porn actors also sex workers? I watch porn all the time, so do a lot of people. I feel sorry for the sad sacks who aren't "allowed" to look at porn because their significant other is so goddamn insecure, the idea of their partner having their own private thoughts scares the shit out of them.
I hold no prejudices. In general, I try not to judge anyone until I've got to know them, what their values are, etc.
I hired an escort once. It was awkward. First, I was paranoid about it being a sting or something. Then, I was worried about getting my wallet stolen. When "it" was over, I started getting up to leave, then the women was like "your time's not up yet," then laid beside me and started a conversation about q-anon type stuff. Lady had some mental issues, which made me feel kinda bad about the whole thing (and a little bit scared at the time, lol).
Anyways, I would never bring this up on a date or even to a partner (or friend). It is completely irrelevant to a relationship. If asked directly if I've ever hired a sex worker, I would lie. There's a lot of stigma around sex workers and their clients, even with people who are generally more "accepting." Someone could be a good potential partner, friend, or whatever, but have one weird hang-up about not dating someone who was a "john," and I wouldn't want to exclude them from being a potential partner/friend just because of that.
I hired an escort once when drunk at like 2am. I couldn't get hard so we just talked for 30 minutes or so and I left.
I do tell people, including dates, if they ask or it comes up. Mostly because I find it an amusing story and people get amused. My dates haven't reacted negatively so far. I'm sure some will but typically I try to filter them before we get to that point.
I don't like judgy people or super-prudes.
Because of the poor treatment of the workers due to it being illegal, I'd say the majority are not great to terrible people.
If they go to legal, well managed brothels, they're probably ok people.
But if it's illegal there wouldn't be legal brothels around?
And I haven't followed through but I've looked into prostitution in my area through various means. There do seem to be fairly moral options in my opinion. People who work independent and interact directly with the customer and they keep all the money. They have their own space to meet and they have the option of refusal at any time.
I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally, or that what you're saying is harmful, but I do worry. It feels like you're demonizing an entire industry and adding to the idea that it's immoral unless done through brothels. Sex work is work, and while often people end up there out of necessity, that's not much different than any other job people work these days. I would say that people who knowingly pay for sex work where the worker doesn't have their full autonomy is, at best, selfish and shortsighted.
Or are you saying that because it's a crime, by paying for it they're contributing to the sex worker also doing something illegal and that's bad?
It's not illegal everywhere. I think their point is that legal and licensed brothels are less likely to be exploitative and involved in human trafficking.
Sure, not all sex work where it is illegal is exploitative, but I'm not sure most clients would shop around for the ethical choice like you have.
I absolutely believe sex work is work and I support it. I live in the USA where it is illegal. This leads to vilifying sex workers. A lot of them are victims. This makes any dealings with sex workers suspect. The typical "law abiding citizen" wouldnt go.
I've been to Germany and it's treated like a business transaction. (Not cold, just not shady or unusual). I feel like anyone that went there would be just a normal guy.
Its a perfectly reasonable option for those that for whatever reason are unable to meet their needs by more conventional/ socially acceptable means. I do not make use of sex worker services currently but if the need arose in the future I would not rule it out, and would not look down on anyone else for doing so (as long as trafficing is not involved)
One situation where I think it's perfectly rational to use sexual services is for mentally handicapped people who have no realistic options for actual relationships. I live in Denmark where prostitution is legal on some conditions. The healthcare staff sometimes have to order prostitutes for their clients to cope with their urges and thereby avoiding violent situations from someone getting too frustrated. The client pays themselves and it's both men and women using the option. The sex workers in these jobs are usually not found in back alleys or dodgy websites but through personal networks. It's still very taboo.
I wonder how these clients are treated in countries where it is outright illegal. Probably not at all, or by illegal methods.
The main problem seems to be trafficking, not the sex services. Everyone does something for money that they really don't want to do, like going to the office 40 hours every week.
If it was possible and required to verify the consensuality, it would probably remove a lot of the illegal services, and more legal services could thrive. There'll always be ways to work around it, so it's a difficult thing to address.
IMO the more that money is involved in anything, the less actually voluntary it is, because we need money to live and plenty of people don't have a lot of options for making money. With sex it's really important for everything to be actually consensual, but paying for it makes that ambiguous, they can't really know, so I see it as creepy and unethical.
Right, if you pay to have sex with a person that's utterly destitute, completely desperate, and has no other options, is that REALLY consensual?
There are plenty of examples of sex workers that are NOT in that situation, but there are just as many (I would guess more) examples of people that ARE in that situation.
I'd be curious to see whether sex workers increase/decrease in a region that implements a universal basic income.
I've known people who are sex workers and they're some of the most talented and intelligent people I've ever met. Replace sex-worker with marketing and that's who they are. There's nothing involuntary about what they do. Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don't want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Yeah, pretty much, it's one of the worst things about our society and needs fixing in general. It's just potentially extra bad when sex is involved because of its emotional, cultural, etc. significance. I don't mean to suggest all sex workers are desperate victims, I'm sure some of them are well off, have options, and are doing it because they want to, but they all have a business incentive to try to appear that way, so someone looking to hire them can't really be confident what they are doing isn't ultimately exploitation.
I couldn't really pin down exactly what my problem with sex work was until reading this. I try not to judge, but I've always found it problematic and I do find myself feeling like it shouldn't have to be a thing. Anecdotally, every person I've interacted with who brought the topic up always joked about wanting to do it just for the money.
The fact that it's paid for as a service makes it inherently open to exploitation, and thus unethical.
My idea of what the average sex worker client is like isn't positive, but I wouldn't hold it against someone I already know to be upstanding if I found out they had used one's services.
Although not something I could see myself doing, I don't judge. People can be too busy for dating, out of practice, too awkward or just wanting to cross off something off their bucket list. At the very least it ain't my business.
Sad but I think it's okay and should be allowed anyways. I feel the same way about McDonald's and Twinkies.
Ok, that comparison gives a lot to think about. I like twinkies, now I feel dirty.
I don’t see a problem with it but there’s definitely a stigma associated with it. (At least in the US) I think folks who pay are seen as not being able to find it elsewhere which may make them appear as not desirable to other people which then may make your partner question if they’re making a bad choice. Unless you happen to be in an area that has well regulated sex workers, I imagine people might think that you’ve been exposed to STDs which may give you a perception of being “unclean”.
I don’t think you should have to lie when finding a partner… but I do think telling them this (at the beginning) may be problematic for you for a lot of people.
I’d love to see sex work well regulated, protected, and normalized in the US but I don’t think we’re there.
Logically, if he treats the sex worker right, with no demanding, no (non negotiated/sane) violence, and his actions don’t extend into monogamous relationships, and his views on future sexual partners are neither transactional nor cruel, it should be fine.
Emotionally would likely be a different story for the partner, or at least for me. Partly due to the stigma attached to sex work, and partly due to feelings of inadequacy or worry about needing to perform unwanted acts, and partly due to a suspicion that that really would affect his views, because people’s thoughts and feelings are messy, sprawling things that don’t fit into the mental cabinets we stuff them into. But if the partner couldn’t get over that, then they’re not for him.
And yes, this applies to women who pay for sex workers, too. Or at least it damn well should.
I know a guy who does, and while it doesn't really matter I'm my opinion, he's kind of a weirdo sleezebag already so it's kind of expected. I suspect there's a correlation that makes it a little hard to separate the service from the kind of guy who would seek out the service.
The problem is exploitation which can and does happen in every industry. Sex work is no exception to that rule. Nobody is saying amazon needs to be abolished because of how they treat their workers. But some people see one industry or another as being inherently exploitative.
Plenty of people are calling for Amazon to be stopped, whether it's by being broken up in a trust-busting operation, fined to the point of bankruptcy for various things including illegal exploitation of its employees, or as an extreme example, starving former Amazon employees simply eating Jeff Bezos. Whether or not someone agrees, and whether they think it applies to brothels, multinational mega-corporations, or any other category of business, it's not a particularly controversial take that some kinds of business are inherently too exploitative of their employees, and should therefore be unable to legally exist.
People want Amazon to be stopped. Not the entire mail order industry.
You think that mail order should be banned?
See, I thought you were heading a different direction, and Amazon most certainly should get into sex work.
No judgement. BUT. I have slightly less of an opinion of those who do it when visiting a foreign country. Like a number of other things (such as gambling) I don't quite like the idea of a city having their citizens relying on sex tourism for sustainability, which by itself is whatever. But mixing that with the concept of fetishizing other races makes it icky. I can't imagine a man with "class" doing it.
This is something I struggle with too. On the one hand, I don’t want to say all instances are bad but there exists, definitely in Asian countries, sex work that caters specifically to ethnically based fetishes. On the one hand, fine, whatever gets your jimmy’s off as long as it’s consensual but I also think that these are often going to result in more exploitative environments when they occur in lower income areas.
I'm the opposite. If someone does it at home, they probably do so regularly while a vacation is once every now and then. I've known a couple of normal people that did it on vacay, it's just another facet of the party for them, letting down their hair etc. The ones I know that do it at home tho...yikes. But it's all kind of gross regardless.
Sex work is legal where I live. Nevertheless there is a lot of crime related to the sex work sector, human traficking, sexual abuse of minors, gangs etc. However I think it would be much worse if it was not regulated in anyway. My personal opinion - I would rather live in a world without it. Personally I would never go to a hooker. Most important thing though is that sex workers can decide for themselves and are not forced to do sex work (may it physical force, drug addiction or just no other way financially)
I believe a lot do not care whether the sex worker really does the job as a free decision. I think even more have no respect for sex workers. A few do not see sex workers as people, but rather as usable bodies. A few go to sex workers because they are misogynists. I think a few use it to be unfaithful towards their partners without their partners having the same opportunities.
I mean, it just depends on why. I don't look down on it as a whole, but if you're in a relationship and doing it on the side, I think you're a scumbag. That would go for women, too though.
I personally wouldn't date a man who's into that, I'd be too worried they'd indulge while we're together, and that's a hard no for me.
It grosses me out, but as long as they're not shitty to the sex worker and the sex worker isn't being abused by a pimp, and everyone consents, it's none of my damned business.
Why not. As long as no one suffers, it's fine by me. It's a transaction like any other. Just be a decent human being (which applies in every context) and I won't think any less of you.
No opinion. Not my business.
What is your opinion on men that make use of sex worker services?
Same as any other business transaction.
I've got to get around to learning how to do this... it's so much easier just to wank and move along with your day.
Disposable income and need for intimacy lol. Some things are not just about the sexual pleasure but fulfilling specific fetishes
Think of the local economy
My opinion is based on an older gentleman commiserating on how difficult it was for young impoverished students to pay for everything nowadays. I was in debt, and had at just that moment come out at the LGB soc. That person was my bank manager.
Subs that pay doms don't bother me at all.
Guy who goes a few times a year is regular. Guy who goes multiple times a week sleeze.
Sad I guess?
I think it fucks up the marriage (divorce) racket for women due to the fact it's simply cheaper and a lot less hassle.
That's why it gets screeched about.
The bottom line is that it's no one's business what 2 consenting adults do.
How is it different than pouring $100 worth of liquor down some woman's throat at the bar, banging once and never seeing again?
Flame away, dgaf.
I think it fucks up the marriage (divorce) racket for women due to the fact it’s simply cheaper and a lot less hassle.
If people are getting married just to have sex, they probably shouldn't be getting married in the first place. And I can't imagine that the marriage for that woman would be great.
Gonna be honest though, your phrasing kind of gives off "sees women as pieces of meat to fuck" energy. And while we're here, plying women with alcohol doesn't sound super consensual to me. If she doesn't want to fuck you sober, don't do it.
Better than rapists. No more no less.
The same thing I think about anyone who pays for something they can find for free if they looked hard enough.
In the Netherlands some people with handicaps like muscular dystrophy can apply for reimbursement for "sex care".
In those cases I think it might be a good thing.Australia also. My friend works for approvals for our national disability scheme. He regularly approves this.
I think it should be considered rape.
Men who pay for sex are the driving force behind human trafficking.
I'm all for freedom, and I will acknowledge that there are probably women in the "sex trade" who were not trafficked or coerced into it, but that number pales in comparison to the number of girls who have been stolen and forced into a horrific life, having lost all control of their future. Freedom is among the most important qualities of human life, and the horror of human trafficking and the way it completely removes all freedom from the lives of its victims trumps the freedom of choosing to sell sex.
Most places, prostitution is illegal, enforced by going after the prostitute and slapping the wrists of the men who use them. I find it immoral and reprehensible that women would be criminalized for this.
Rather, men who make use of sex workers should be ostracized from society and imprisoned as rapists. And the women should be treated with compassion and care, as victims of abuse.
How do you believe women (and men, and NBs) who willingly go into this line of work should be treated?
