https://lemmy.world/post/16146433
Here's actual context for anyone who wants it.
The US president is expected to sign the order as early as Tuesday to seal the border with Mexico to migrants when numbers of asylum claimants rise above a daily threshold of 2,500.
But sure, both sides the same, if this time we let fascism win it will totally make us into a left-wing paradise, etc etc etc.
I'm voting Biden out of harm reduction because I don't have the stones to walk away and be complicit in additional short term suffering/scapegoating/cruelty, but Biden just like Trump ultimately serves our owner class, and we need to collapse to have any hope of anything but living in this dystopic oligarchy.
The neoliberals and the fascists alike work to maintain the power of our owner class. We're only permitted a vote on how to address the social issue symptoms of our rigged economic system. I'd rather we not address those symptoms with scapegoating and fear, so Biden it is.
Don't mistake that vote for even beginning to solve anything though. This country is died under Reagan. Something new will eventually have to take its place for any gains to be made at this point, this corpse is too far captured, it has been reformed to maintain class occupation and maximum exploitation under both (D) and (R) representatives, both legally bribed and fully owned when it comes to legislating and protecting the long con that is our market capitalist economic system.
When capitalist induced, reckless growth/metastasis caused climate change is thinning our numbers due to hunger/thirst/deadly weather, maybe then, far too late, we will finally unite against our common enemy in their towers, golf clubs, and guard gated communities.
Don’t mistake that vote for even beginning to solve anything though. This country is died under Reagan. Something new will eventually have to take its place for any gains to be made at this point, this corpse is too far captured, it has been reformed to maintain class occupation and maximum exploitation under both (D) and ® representatives, both legally bribed and owned.
I agree that voting is the minimum and will not solve any issues on its own, but we've been in worse spots regarding corruption, and still came out capable of reform. The fight isn't over, and there's more than a corpse left to fight over. The country hasn't died under Reagan unless we're willing to let it die.
Campaign finance reform has been a rallying cry of the progressive wing of the Dem Party as soon as Citizens United happened. We, as a society, must relearn the value of strikes and disruptive protests to succeed, but I believe do have a future still.
the effect is the same, because part of the executive order doesn't allow for people that crossed the border illegally to apply for asylum at all and generally makes it more difficult to apply for asylum in the first place. Biden doesn't deserve defending when he makes the same moves as his fascist competitor.
What is the progressive policy on immigration? I've heard all the reasons why Republican plans are racist and xenophobic and all that but not much substance on what should be in place instead. It seems to me to be the left's version of a GOP Healthcare plan. "We have one and it's totally great but it won't be ready until next week."
Does someone want to enlighten me?
The progressive policy on immigration has been repeated for about a decade and a half now - path to citizenship for those who've grown up in the US, looser immigration restrictions, higher quotas, more judges to address backlog, etc. There have been a few attempts at implementation but all of them were ultimately shut down by Republican intransigence.
Today's executive order doesn't conflict with any of those things.
In fact, all it does it put a temporary limit on extralegal border-crossing asylum claims to 2,500 people per day. So it does not, in fact, "shut down" asylum claims, nor does it increase deportations of people who have been living here.
President Joe Biden on Tuesday signed an executive order that will temporarily shut down asylum requests once the average number of daily encounters tops 2,500 between official ports of entry
Is the United States supposed to take in an unlimited number of unauthorized border-crossers every day?
Is that the way it's going to go down? The right falsely accuses the left of being for "open borders", and the left's response is to actually just take the bait and make that their stance?
Because if that's the new progressive litmus test (it's hard to keep up since there seems to be a new one every day) then we have well and truly jumped the shark. Even progressive hero FDR turned away tens of thousands of Jewish Holocaust refugees:
In 1933, and again in 1937, the Roosevelt administration modified the “likely to become a public charge” restriction, but kept it in place. German Jews attempting to immigrate to the United States in the 1930s were still often rejected for economic reasons.
As a result of these legal and administrative obstacles to immigration, less than 20% of the German quota was filled during FDR’s first term. The Roosevelt administration focused on domestic problems, chiefly combatting the Great Depression. Though Americans certainly had information about the threat Nazism posed to German Jews, few could have imagined the persecution would escalate to mass murder. FDR did not take significant action to aid German Jews, either by ordering a diplomatic protest or by publicly supporting increased immigration.
Some people on this website who claim to be "on the left" are now just inventing shit to be mad at Biden for, I guess either because they are really sockpuppet Trump supporters trying to incite division amongst Democrats, or maybe because they simply don't give a fuck if fascism takes over the US.
So there are three urgent problems with immigration in this country, two of which root back to a sudden wild spike upwards in the number of people coming into the country which wasn't matched by a corresponding spike in the resources for the agencies that deal with them:
- The agency which runs the border patrol and immigration is made of oppressive and racist people
- There's a huge backlog of asylum / deportation cases which means people stay in custody in racist and oppressive overcrowded prisons (see point #1)
- We're rate limiting the people coming into the country (see point #2), which means a lot of asylum seekers who are trying to do it legally wind up waiting for months (maybe years now, IDK) on the other side of the Mexican border, basically just living in a big, dangerous, squalid, crime-ridden open-air field with no facilities for life, and no job, no medical care for anyone no matter how young or old, it's fuckin dangerous
Biden is unable to fix #1 without an act of God (basically firing all existing ICE and CBP agents and then finding 45,000 people who really want to work as immigration police but who aren't racist or oppressive). He's unable to fix #2 or #3, although those ones do have legislative solutions, because the Republicans block anything he does, even when he tried promising to do some cruel or racist things as a compromise in order to get them to also agree to some badly needed things (mostly, increasing ICE funding so they can at least house the people they have in better conditions, and increasing the number of judges to process cases so people don't wait for a year before their case is heard).
And, any time he tries to do anything about it (e.g. try to increase the number of deportations or increase ICE resources, both of which are actually things that would help reduce the suffering from its current state), everyone on the left yells at him, because US immigration is cruel and interacting with it involves interacting with a cruel system.
I would ask ozma the same thing I asked about marijuana policy: What exactly should Biden do to fix the situation? Without resorting to magical solutions like "make ICE not racist" or "just fix the backlog without congress" or just making wild assertions like "oh he could fix it if he wanted to, he just doesn't want to" or similar things that aren't how the federal government works?
I'm open to almost anything; I'm happy to talk about details or exact things or policies, as long as it's grounded in "X and Y are policies he could realistically do and here is how it would help." But if it's just yelling and asserting that he is cruel and he could fix it if he wanted and he's a bad man because US immigration is cruel (which, it certainly is, famously so) and that's all his fault, I'm not into that conversation.
I would ask ozma the same thing I asked about marijuana policy
Your mistake is thinking that return2ozma is a regular person looking for a nuanced policy debate within the parameters of reality, and not just (at best) some guy who spends every waking hour posting bullshit on lemmy or (at worst) a sock puppet knowingly posting bad-faith arguments as a form of political propaganda.
I don't know for sure, but I do know that someone who has posted 2550 threads in 11 months (~8 threads/day on average) lives online and should be generally disregarded by any normal, rational person. Ask yourself what kind of person has that much free time to post on reddit/lemmy/social media...
Well, ultimately I want a utopian Star Trek universe with no borders but that's kind of a pipe dream right now, so I'm just throwing my arms into the air in the interim.
I share your dream, but the current nationalist system will have to collapse first because there's too many people who think their dirt is special dirt.
My policy is to eliminate all national borders. This will mean an extra $10,000 per person in GDP in developed countries and an extra $20,000 per person across the global south. Plus we'll save a ton of money not guarding imaginary lines in the dirt.
How?
DAE both sides bad?
I do
Asylum seekers are the ones turning themselves in... and it is well known closing off asylum seekers and increasing deportations directly leads to more border crossings.
What is the gameplan here with this order? Surely commit extensive resources to the bottlenecked bureacracy to help with processing and screening asylum seekers? Right?
Again it's Biden way of trying to gain the Republican vote (which the Democrats know they can't win) rather than try gain progressive vote.
I think he doesn't want to be president and he's throwing the election
Only thing that makes sense at this point
Everyone crossing the border is trained to claim they are seeking asylum and they can't go back to their home country.
Here's the thing, this uses the same legal framework that Trump tried to use when his border crossing ban was struck down in court. Most likely this will be challenged immediately and struck down. This feels like a desperate bid to please moderates and republicans IMO. Not like this will actually survive to be enforced. Still horribly irresponsible and pussy-footing though.
Luckily the ACLU is already taking up the fight...
Buts it's disgusting watching so many people defend it because he has a D by his name, thats what republicans did, and it didn't take long to get to trump.
Throwing all your standards away is never a good thing.
Also remember that the GoP, if they get in, will dismantle the system entirely and probably allow public executions of LGBTQ
It's not that people like Joe
It's that they want a democracy to remain
Hell, a lot are probably hoping Joe drops dead of old age shortly into a second term
But the thing is...
Everyone voting for Biden, would vote for anyone with a D by their name. Even if they had zero idea what that name was.
So why not run a popular candidate, who won't do all this horrible shit, and win even easier?
Like, everyone just accepts that Biden is the only option besides trump.
And he's not even a good option. He barely won last time when he didn't have all the baggage.
I feel like he’s making these moves to try to bring in right-wing voters who say they care about immigration, but literally none of them will give a shit and they’ll still accuse him of being soft on immigration. All he’s doing is just pissing off people in his own party for no actual political gain.
This is not a Biden "move". It's a response to limitations
but literally none of them will give a shit and they’ll still accuse him of being soft on immigration. All he’s doing is just pissing off people in his own party for no actual political gain.
Unfortunately, a large number of Democrats and independents still think of the border as being in crisis
I'm "defending it" because the man, nor his political affiliation caused this.
He has no option to continue, and no ability to get this type of law passed by Congress.
What are our standards? Letting an unlimited number of people into the country per day without any sort of legal process or system? I genuinely don't understand what people here are arguing for...
The ACLU has no legal leg to stand on here and are just doing performative politics to raise donations. Despite what libertarian "sovereign citizens" would tell you, last time I checked civil liberties don't include being allowed to travel and live wherever you want without any sort of legal process. Putting a rather generous upper limit of 2,500/day for asylum claims (from non-port border crosses only) isn't a violation of anybody's rights.
Once upon a time, people could freely travel across borders. EU citizens still do.
Well you'd better have some firearms close to your standards so you can enforce them after you win civil war 2.
No, seriously, if you want the US to shift towards the left and Trump gets into power, be prepared to fight and die for those ideals. You won't be able to just sit around and wait until the civil war is over, you'll have to fight in it.
Biden barely won 2020 without his baggage and with trump telling Republicans (who traditionally used vote by mail more than anyone else) that voting by mail won't be counted...
Less than 100,000 rhousand or so votes across five states and Biden lost...
This election Biden has his baggage. trump just launched a big push for vote by mail.
Republicans will vote Republican no matter what.
Dems have standards.
If you're talking about what's most likely going to lead to trump winning...
It's Biden refusing to listen to Dem voters on damn near anything.
Blue MAGA is gonna Blue MAGA.
Hey, it's your catch phrase! Bad news though, I made a little histogram, and it's not catching on. There was a huge spike back around the 20th of May when you and a few other people made a concerted effort to start using it, but it dwindled back down to like a few times a week again since then.
I think you should start inserting it into the discourse some more. It's sure to catch on. Just keep repeating it! Don't get discouraged if people make fun of you for it.
This is what I don't get about conservatives. They will bitch about immigration and say the border is wide open. Like no my guy it's so much worse than before. If you are a single issue voter 𝘑𝘰𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘨𝘶𝘺
It was never about the border.
It is open.
“The white conservatives aren't friends of the Negro either, but they at least don't try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the "smiling" fox.” - Malcom X
Remember, folks... friends don't let friends remain liberals.
Here you go... The Most Dangerous Thing in the Western Hemisphere
Apart from a few minor things here and there, I don't disagree with Chapman on this - which is a rare thing for me with Chapman's videos these days. I stopped watching him when he endorsed Engel's ludicrous attempt to justify authoritarianism.
Ah, liberal harm reduction. "Biden can't change this, its all up to congress. BTW Biden had to personally close the border without congress."
Jesus Christ, just keeps shooting the chance of not having Trump in the foot, and Trump's brain melts down on Fox News. Our options are a brain that's able to work but chooses not to, and a puddle of gray matter with orange spray paint.
Democracy!
Wouldn't making it easy for immigrants to become citizens help reduce inflation?
Since then it would improve the participants / total USD ratio?
He needs to prepare the country for Emperor Trump.
Ahh yes, the right-wing memes.
*Ah yes, the right wing immigration policy
FTFY
Whats right wing about this? Because Joe Biden made a stupid decision that is actually right wing?
For one thing, Biden isn't talking about deporting everyone, so the post is just a lie.
Biden has no ability to change it, republicans in Congress made that clear.
If.he continued to allow folks in, the conditions would be unacceptable. They are obviously bad where they are coming from, but it would be conditions caused by the government. To avoid that, with the limited powers he has, he has to remove the custody concern.
Before you.interject that custody/processing is dumb: I agree, but it's the current law, which, Biden cannot change.
Because no one reads the actual policies and just make up a bunch of shit because memes are more fun than the boring reality.
If you disagree, explain your understanding of the recent border policies. Quotes from it would be appropriate.
It's what you would call Hypocrisy
Only notice it when it benefits you, huh sweetie?
Edit: just go look at their profile y'all. I'm not trying to whatabout. they're spinless alt right hypocrites
Context..
Biden pulls from Trump’s immigration playbook in election-year twist
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/04/politics/border-biden-trump-what-matters/index.html
That's bullshit, you Russian troll
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/us/politics/biden-immigration-asylum-order.html
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/04/nx-s1-4991917/biden-executive-order-asylum-migration-border
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-executive-order-immigration-border-asylum/
Hey is the New York Times, NPR, and CBS also russian propganda?
