Non-religious Republicans of Lemmy, how do you reconcile your non-religious convictions with a party that bases a lot of its policies on religion?
Non-religious Republicans of Lemmy, how do you reconcile your non-religious convictions with a party that bases a lot of its policies on religion?
E.g. abortion rights, anti-LGBTQ, contempt for atheism, Christian nationalism, etc.
I can only speak for my friends who fit your criteria: they’re single issue voters (like many Americans) and they’re afraid the Dems are coming for their guns.
The dilemma being that anyone who acts this way probably shouldn't own guns.
Placing gun ownership over all other personal freedoms is an unhealthy obsession.
People who think they need weapons in case are not so different than those who think the rapture will occur in their lifetime.
People think they need guns just in case only because so many other people have guns and because our gun violence is out of control.
It's an arms race leading only to more gun deaths.
It's also a delusion for the most part. None of the scenarios they carve out in their minds about why guns are essential tools has much basis in any rational threat profile. Otherwise these nutters would be walking around with helmets on all the time.
They are unfortunately correct. I can’t count how many failed attempts I’ve made to try to convince many of my liberal peers that trying to kill the 2nd Amendment or functionally prevent people from buying guns is doing more harm to our collective efforts than good by alienating independents who are otherwise liberal-leaning, but staunchly support 2A. Many liberals have terrible views about gun violence in general IMO, and a serious lack of comprehension of the problem. Conservatives aren’t much better, unfortunately, and they’re three times as stubborn, so here we are.
And yet, things like universal background checks and red flag laws poll at something like 80 percent support nationally. Most people are perfectly OK with changing the status quo on gun ownership. The problem is that there is a very determined and highly vocal minority that immediately leaps to "they're coming for our guns!" any time any kind of widely-supoorted common sense gun control measures are even mentioned. The result is that we can't even have a conversation about what said measures should look like so everyone continues to cling to their absolutist positions in ignorance and fear. This is by design and we are suckers for allowing ourselves to be played like this. It's pure manipulation on the part of political opportunists.
If the claim here is that these people would vote straight Blue if the Democratic Party came out tomorrow supporting guns I don’t buy it at all. They’ll move the goalposts. Half the rhetoric they believe about Democrats taking their guns is entirely fabricated to begin with, a large chunk of the rest amounts to paperwork.
Mental health is the issue. Just like anyone who would drive a car through a school yard mowing down kids, that person has mental issues. The vehicles driver should be licensed and the owner should be registered. I am a gun toting liberal in a state with essential zero gun laws. I believe in the second ammendment, but not absolute. You should be able to have a gun, but you should be licensed (psyc eval, background check, gun safety classes requirement) and your guns should be registered. If a gun you own ever kills someone, you are responsible. Your gun is your responsibility to keep locked up and if it's stolen you should have reported it.
My personal stance is is a combination of an observation that an armed population is harder to oppress, and that gun control tends to have a disproportionate impact on minorities and oppressed groups.
Since LGBT and minorities are the most likely groups to be attacked by political opposition, we shouldn't be trying to hamstring their ability to defend themselves.
Plus, a contributing factor to why the alt-right and fascists have gained so much ground in the past decade is because of the perception that only the political right has guns, and therefore they think that they'll win in a fight
single issue voters are fucking willfully braindead. Selfish short-sighted fuckers doing the opposite of their civic duty
That and monetary issues. The "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" out there who want to keep R in power so when they finally get rich, they won't have to pay taxes.
These are called dumb fucks in my book
If you go far enough left, you get your guns back.
And get paid for it. The difference is that it is no longer your guns but our guns
In Australia I know a lot of people who vote purely based on how their parents voted. That includes people voting against their own interests and refuse to do any research that might change their minds...
We have that in the US too, there's just a less than subtle rebellion phase that lasts roughly 2.5 presidential election cycles before regressing.
A single issue for their single brain cell.
Some users have come to this thread to answer this question honesty and openly. Without cussing or name calling or anything.
I think it’s shameful for people to be downvoting them. Downvote something for being off topic, or for being violent or hateful that’s fine. But for having an opinion that’s different from yours in a thread specifically asking for that?
There are always going to be people who you disagree with. On every topic.That kind of behavior will only push people away.
I agree.
I asked this question because I really want to try to understand people who are different than me and hold other opinions than me. Broaden my horizon. Maybe help people question their own reasonings.
So, I asked a question on a topic I don't understand. I hope people will answer honestly and that people who disagree will avoid persecuting that honesty.
We all need to find common ground somewhere.
Good for you that's a great attitude to have. Having honest and open conversation in good faith is so valuable and healthy. Keep it up and don't let those types get you down.
I totally agree about the common ground. Understanding has to occur on both sides. You must be willing to listen before you expect anyone else to.
I think for a lot of people its very similar to religion.
If you grew up in the church, the priest/pastor was a nice guy, church events were very central to the community, he spoke at Nannas funeral. You might not be religious but the broader concerns about "the church" ring a lot more hollow because you have seen the positive side.
If you grew up somewhere that was very republican and your local and state reps did the meat and potatoes of their jobs well, why would you have anything against them? Your community was nice, nobody was racist or homophobic (that you noticed), the schools were funded, people had jobs. You have seen with your own eyes that Republicans arent evil.
Will someone please think of the fake Internet points of oppressive
theofascists?Downvotes only push people who care about the numbers away. People who care about discussion will only be pushed away by vitriol being sent their way via replies and DMs.
Get over it. If people post unpopular things, they're going to get downvotes. Even if answering an explicit question
They happen to align with my values. I was raised Christian, and I only became agnostic in college, so that probably plays into it.
For example, abortion, I think murder is abohherent, baby murder especially so. I don't know when the right to life begins, so I err on the side of caution, at the earliest point, at conception.
Im not anti-lgbtq.
I dont hold contempt for atheism, I dont like /r/atheism
Christian nationalism is weird one because no one seems to know what that actually means. And hell, freedom of religion is one of the most important rights, right next to free speech.
I hope that helps.
Banning abortion doesn't stop abortion, it just shifts it to a black market where women are far more likely to die.
What does demonstrably reduce abortion to effectively insignificant levels is better sex education and easy access to contraceptives.
Prohibition has never worked. Education always has.
Banning abortion doesn't stop abortion, it just shifts it to a black market where women are far more likely to die.
Perhaps, but it will likely at least severely reduce it. It's certainly not appropriate to assume that every woman who would have had an abortion when it's safe and legal would also do so when it's dangerous and illegal. More likely, it would lead to a rise in babies given up for adoption.
Honest question. How do you reconcile your claim about not being anti-lgbt when the GOP is very vocally and openly pushing anti-lgbt messaging and legislation.
You know that someone can agree with most things in a platform and hate other things about it right?
The fact that they said they’re not anti-lgbt instead of saying they’re pro-lgbt implies that lgbt issues in general are lower on their list of priorities. They may not agree with the anti lgbt stuff but it isn’t important to them anyway.
You know I voted for Hillary and Biden even though both trashed the idea of Medicare For All. That’s a huge issue for me, but you don’t really get to pick your politicians. You only pick the lesser of two evils. Republicans don’t like Dems. They might not love Trump or even Ted Cruz but for some people that’s their lesser of two evils. So I can’t speak for this other commenter but I can understand why you might vote for someone who doesn’t share your values
think murder is abohherent, baby murder especially so. I don't know when the right to life begins, so I err on the side of caution
Why stop there? You have no idea, right? So why do you masturbate or use condoms? You're killing millions of potential babies!
If you don't know, you should err on the side of caution for the rights of the people who you do know are real.
Or maybe you should just stay out of it, because as you say, you don't know. Leave it to the scientists and doctors who DO know and who almost universally support abortion access.
Why stop there? You have no idea, right? So why do you masturbate or use condoms? You're killing millions of potential babies!
Not the guy you're responding to, but you have a point. Coincidentally, most religions are also against both, so at least you can't accuse them of being inconsistent on the issue of reproduction.
Thank you for your response.
I'm on team "glad you responded" but I still wanna respond to 2 things you said.
First, a lot of anti-abortion people want the abortion conversation to end at "this is murder", but how do you address the bodily autonomy argument? Even if I accept any and all abortions as the full death of a complete person, why are women compelled to donate their bodies to save another person? I don't support forced organ donations to save lives, and by that logic I also do not support forced pregnancies. Any opinion on that perspective?
Christian nationalism isn't complicated in what it is, it is just the desire/push/beliefs from the people that want a nation with an explicitly christian government, a christian theocracy. If it completely took over everything, freedom of religion would be dead, everything would be christian. To try and rephrase it bluntly, Christian nationalism is the desire for and work towards a Christian nation. Some people take it seriously, some people don't, some people outright support it, others deny it even is a real concept.
Edit to add: if you aren't anti-lgbtq, will you call your representatives that you vote for and emphatically tell them so? The difference in opinions between conservatives and their politicians about lgbtq is something I hear from most conservatives I've talked to, but it makes me sad to see they don't really care beyond saying "I'm not anti-lgbtq". If you vote for an anti-lgbtq politician because of other policies they support, please at least tell them you don't agree with their anti-lgbtq stance. It is literally the least amount of help I can think of to ask for.
I'm anti abortion once the fetus is viable. Prior to that point, a woman is refusing to let someone else use her body to survive, and while there are personal moral questions there, I think she should have the right to make that call. After that point, she's attempting to kill someone else to avoid the suffering that a birth would entail.
I still support her right to rid herself of an unwelcome guest, I just don't support abortion as the method.
I'm aware that late term abortions are so vanishingly rare that this is a pointless hair-splitting exercise, but I like to have a consistent moral system as much as I can, whether it's currently relevant or not, and I thought someone might appreciate my .02.
In my mind, so long as lgbtq people have both free speech and the right to bear arms, the rest of their rights will come. See: The marches and protests that lead to gay marriage. Those two rights come before everything else, and support everything else.
Unfortunately, many Republican elected representatives are, to varying degrees, anti-LGBT and do support Christian encroachment into non-religious people's lives.
Murder of a consciousness is abhorent, but that doesn't really happen. So are you also against pulling the plug on the brain dead?
Kudos for sharing. Feel free to ignore those who challenge your values. It takes a bunches of mental energy to argue and it isn't necessarily worth it to argue.
With that said, I will still would like to ask you a question, if you are up for it.
How did you form your values?
I only ask because it is easy, when you are raised as Christian, to uncritically accept the teaching, values, and views of those around you as your own.
As kids we are conditioned through school, parents, and in general just information asymmetry to accept what adults say as fact and not question it. It is easy to carry that same tendency over into our values and viewpoints. Kids and adults have a hard time separating fact from opinion. We tend to treat widely held beliefs as fact instead of as the opinions they actually are.
Well, abortion is basically a modified pascal's wager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager
Pro guns, all sorts of historical precedent, from the US in Iraq, to Roof Koreans, to the French Resistance, to Australia. (This is honestly my strongest belief, guns and free speech)
Free speech, how can you speak up if you can't speak?
Why do you consider conception as the earliest point? What about at arousal? 😜
Christian nationalism is just the merging of Christian and American identity. “America is a Christian nation”. You hear similar often from pandering and or deranged Republicans
Right on. I don’t share your values but I’m glad to see you here participating and sharing.
Being a fetus doesn't excuse a foreign body's presence inside of mine. I do not intend to be pregnant and if my partner's sperm invades my body when I do not want it I will take every step to eliminate it or the process that follows it. A fetus isn't important. If anything forcing someone to exist is the utmost violation of bodily autonomy. As they say, just because something is natural doesn't make it good.
Friendly reminder that the right wing party in my country is a bit far from being religious, mostly because more than 60% of the population (and honestly, more than 80% based on my speculation) is atheist. Anti-lgbtq being dominant here is definitely not because of religious reasons but the general conservative sentiments we had for so long. Abortion is frowned upon, but no one actually believes that it should be downright criminalized except for some religion nuts.
Protestantism is pretty much hated by general public since we had some issues with some religion nuts making people's life miserable.
What country is that?
Probably the Netherlands, going by his numbers.
What country is that?
Right wing in my country is also non religious, religion in politics is really frowned upon, to the point that one of our former PMs 'came out' as a Catholic after he left. Everyone is pretty pro LGB... less so on the T though, our conservatives are very anti-trans, our left party less so. I think our only anti abortionists are on the right? It's a rare viewpoint to say out loud though.
I used to consider myself republican, and I think I'm still closer to republican than democrat. I prefer small government, which is at least sometimes a republican ideal. I am also against identity politics of any kind, so I am against affirmative action. I am in favor of gun rights, with regulations that allow for appropriate tracking of who has guns where, how they are stored, how they are transported etc. However, regulations that prevent particular people from owning guns or ban any particular weapons should be very conservative. Even felons should regain gun rights after an appropriate period of time. Only ridiculously dangerous weapons, like nukes, should be outright banned. Stuff like full auto weapons should be legal, but restricted to only be stored at a gun range or something. As far as LGBT goes, I don't think the government should have anything to do with them. Let them do what they want, let people react how they want (as long as it isn't violent of course, which is already illegal under other laws). I've never been really sure about abortion. My gut reaction is to just let people do what they want, but I struggle to logically justify it as anything but murder. Not to mention the impracticality of banning it.
I wouldn't really call myself a republican anymore though. This is largely because of the religious aspects. I don't know if republicans have actually become more authoritarian or if my perception has just changed, but either way they don't seem to prioritize the same things as me anymore. Things like right to repair, net neutrality, and E2EE are important to me, but they don't align with that at all. The party also keeps embracing identity politics, just with different identities than their opposition. Religion should be a non-factor from a governmental perspective. It doesn't need any special protections, just to be ignored.
If I had to call myself something, I guess I would be a 'libertarian socialist', however much of an oxymoron that seems to be. For instance, I like the idea of UBI, largely because it would allow almost all welfare/social programs to be eliminated (including social security). Doing so would reduce government control, because they no longer have an ability to tweak who gets what, since everyone gets the same amount.
Thank you for your response and your perspective.
I don’t think that this is necessarily where you’ve landed, but “libertarian socialism” is very much a thing. (more in line with the original use of the term “libertarian”…)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism?wprov=sfti1#
Not really what your criteria is being that I'm a pro life libertarian as far as ideals I align with most on what you're looking for.
Even though I am religious, my argument against abortion is firstly a scientific one then on moral principal second. On the science side it's a human from the moment of conception. On the moral side it's that I believe all humans deserve human rights no matter at what stage of development there are. Just as soon as you make exceptions to kill for one type or subset of humankind you open the door to others. Usually this is done by labeling a certain group as not human to justify oppression of said group. Terms usually used to justify acts of violence against other humans are property, subhuman, animals, savages, clump of cells, parasite, etc. Usually for libertarians it boils down to having a code called the non-aggression principal which is essentially don't fuck with other people. This is also why I'm anti capital punishment.
I hope that helps. Also, good luck at your family get togethers, lol. It feels like you're looking for ammunition for debates.
On the science side it's a human from the moment of conception.
Citation needed
This basically underpins the whole thing and is pretty hand waved away
Personally I think the whole 'life/humanity begins at conception' thing is a smoke screen. Life began a long, long time ago, and the cell line you belong to became human deep in prehistory.
The actual question is "does the state have the right to use one person's living body to support the life of another?" It applies to organ transplants as much as it applies to the unborn.
Citation needed
Not that you're asking for an argument, but I do want you to know why I, and many like me, find this whole life-from-conception argument totally ethically unpersuasive. And it's not the usual nonsense of "it's just cells" because, as you well know, that's an unimpressive and pointless debate. Whether a fetus is a human or not is fundamentally subjective. And so I'll grant that it is, because I have total confidence in my pro-choice position even then.
The issue with the pro-life position is not that it asserts that abortion is bad. Frankly, I don't give a crap if you or anyone else thinks it is bad. Again, that is subjective. A personal preference. The issue with the pro-life position is that it always seems to assert that abortion must be banned and even criminalized. That's what pro-life is. It doesn't mean "I think abortion is bad", it means "I think abortion should not be allowed."
My position isn't that abortion is good. Mine is that the pregnant person has a right to choose. I think the moral calculus on when and whether it is good or bad is FAR too complicated to form a rule, and so we must leave it up to the biggest stakeholders to figure that out privately.
I think a lot of things are bad, but having a preference against something is different than justifying use of the state's violence to prohibit it.
A Defense of Abortion by Judith Jarvis Thomson, PDF - 1971. Hardly new, and I doubt you've never seen it, but ultimately it is still the line of argument that I do not think has been convincingly rebutted. This essay is still probably the most sound and straightforward work of philosophy that shows that banning abortion is impermissible in an ethical society, and it presumes life from the moment of conception just as you do.
My extreme summary of the point it is making: at the end of the day, you have two competing human rights. You have the right to autonomy of your own body against another's right to life. Both are undeniably rights a person has -- and highly related ones, at that. When these rights are in tension, we need to make a choice as to which is supreme. And the consequences of giving life supremacy over autonomy are disastrous compared to the consequences of giving autonomy supremacy over life.
Rather than empower the state to take any and all actions necessary to protect life, we instead must impose a limit on the power of the state -- it may not violate someone's ability to make choices about their own body functions, even if to protect the life of another.
I'd prefer to be in a world that has no abortions at all. Just as I'd prefer to be in a world without contagious disease. One way to get rid of all contagious disease is to systematically euthanize every sick person at their first sniffle. Problem solved! Such is an abortion ban.
We get rid of disease by investing in research and healthcare and doing our best to use it maximize efficacy with fair triage, vaccination programs, etc.. We get rid of abortion by preventing unwanted pregnancies from the get and by creating a world so supportive and safe for pregnant people that they do not want to terminate it.
I won't mention the rest of the text because I'm not interested enough on the discussion to do so. I'll focus on a single thing.
On the science side it’s a human from the moment of conception.
What should be considered a human being or not is prescriptive in nature, because it involves ethics. Science - i.e. the scientific method - does not give a shit to prescriptive matters; science is descriptive, it's worried about what happens/doesn't happen. For science it doesn't really matter if you call it a human, a tissue, a wug or a colourless green thing sleeping furiously, as long as you're unambiguously and accurately describing the phenomenon being studied.
As such, no, science itself doesn't really tell you "when it becomes a human being".
[From another comment, after being asked for source] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33620844/
The only thing that it "proves" is that the author (not "science") is referring to foetuses (from nine weeks after conception [not zero] to 16 weeks) as "children". And it certainly does not back up your claim that [ipsis litteris] "On the science side it’s a human from the moment of conception."
And no, "The growth and development are positively influenced by factors, like parental health and genetic composition, even before conception." does not prove it either, given that the author is solely mentioning conception as a time of reference.
Sorry to be blunt but the way that you referred to science sounds a lot like "I'm ignorant on science but I want to leech off its prestige for the sake of my argument". If you don't want to do this, here's a better approach:
- Show how certain actions generate certain outcomes. Science will help you with this.
- Explicit the moral and ethical premises that you are using, to judge said outcomes as good/bad. Science will not help you with this.
It's also a nice way to avoid a fallacy/stupidity called appeal to nature (TL;DR: "[event/thing] is natural, so it's good lol lmao"), that often plagues discussions about moral matters like abortion.
All very well put and saved me leaving a comment.
I think the responses from the conservatives in this thread have demonstrated what I'd expected, and hopefully what OP was looking for: abandonment of Christian dogma does not always result in abandonment of dogmatic values.
People who are happy to declare that the definition of something like science is anything other than what the vast majority of those accredited in scientific fields consider it to be are just as dishonest as hard-line Christians, and will vote against their own interests just as readily.
I like how you call out some terms used to dehumanization. Fetus, baby, and child also fit into that bucket imo.
So ,to clarify, you want the government to restrict and punish abortion? I thought libertarians were for less government.
Why should the government have a monopoly on violence and force in this case? Instead shouldn't the enforcement of moral law like the NAP be up to their peers or free market hired private contractors?
Some libertarians are minarchist meaning as little government as possible, some are anarcho-capitalists. Pro-life minarchists would be fine having punishment of abortion be treated like any other killing of a human. Anarcho-capitalists would rather not have government have a monopoly on violence.
If the NAP could be easily dismissed by just reclassifying who is and isn't a human, then yes some form of law setting clarifying what a human is would be necessary. You bring up THE most interesting debate though in libertarian circles IMHO. Tom Woods did an interview with Gerard Casey about this topic. I highly recommend listening to the interview and giving Casey's book a read.
https://tomwoods.com/libertarian-anarchy-against-the-state-2/
Even though I am religious, my argument against abortion is firstly a scientific one then on moral principal second. On the science side it's a human from the moment of conception.
This is true…literally everyone knows the instant a piece of pollen lands in the flower of an oak tree, a fully formed oak tree is created in that moment. Literally, no other steps between those things even worth defining with their own special words or meanings like book people use to try to sound special(smart).
That’s why I’m glad we’ve got the REAL science of Jesus and the almighty.
Appreciate the honest and (somewhat) applicable answer!
I also DO NOT appreciate the downvotes … we really need to get rid of those. Don’t agree, fine, move on or respond civilly. A downvote is a manifestly uncivil action sanctioned by the interface.
Otherwise … to respond to the abortion argument … where this falls down for me is the complete lack of any mention of the mother or woman in your reasoning.
Scientifically, this challenges the “humanness” of a foetus in the way it is tightly coupled and dependent on another human to live. Morally, it raises much of your reasoning in relation to not fucking with people once you consider what is effectively done to women by forcing them to carry any foetus to birth which is a massive, very active and obviously risky undertaking.
Whether these are convincing for you or others, the lack of any weight given for these considerations indicates that the act of birthing is presumed as a duty of all women. A presumption that IMO undermines the completeness of your scientific and moral arguments.
To take that a little further … should people be legally compelled to secure and save the lives of babies? As it is now, that’s not the case anywhere I know of. Causing harm would be criminal, obviously, but failing to save a baby or anyone else from harm is not.
In debating the legality of abortion you enter into similar territory. Only by presuming birth as a duty can you think otherwise.
While aborting a foetus is a positive act, there’s the complication that it’s purpose is to avoid the onus of pregnancy and birth, which can be easily seen as tantamount to “simply not doing the thing that would save the foetus’s like”, ie all the work of pregnancy and birth which is probably all too easily presumed by men (which I’m guessing you are) as a more passive and natural event than an act of effort, toil and cost.
The more fundamental issue is tying it to “humanness” at all. And I don’t think dependence on the mother really comes into play in terms of if it deserves protection. There’s really no reason you couldn’t have a concious parasite.
All of the highlights why it’s important to define what specific qualities we are looking for in determining the degree of rights an entity would have.
Your last paragraph is why I want nothing to do with killing humans just for convenience. Also look at my last comment with wantd. I posed a question about when a human is viable outside of the womb at any stage of development. Would it change how you view its rights?
Although I don't agree with expanding government, I do agree with extending rights and protections to humans at all stages of development. I do consider that a different debate though mostly in line with who should pave roads, how police should work, and who should deliver mail (once again libertarian, not authoritarian Republican)
Also don't worry about down votes. This topic is highly contentious and both sides generally see it the other side as a direct assault on their beliefs.
I don’t fit this description, but I know many that do.
You will not get a real answer to this question due to how biased it is being asked.
Good luck on your search for knowledge.
I tried to word it as non-biased as possible. How would you word it to make it less biased in your opinion?
This comment and my other in the thread are gonna get a ton of downvotes, so I’m just going to own it.
Also, this is entirely from my experience with republicans in real life. I am not one, but many of my family and friends are.
First, most are not anti-LGBT at all. Most that I know are against these laws that are being out into place. But these issues are not very important to them so they don’t have strong convictions that would dissuade them from voting based on this issue. They will not engage if you call them anti-LGBT because they are not.
Second, contempt for atheist. This is a perspective that comes from the online and media representation of republicans. I’ve never heard a single discussion about atheists with republicans. This is not an issue, period. They will not engage in discussion around an issue they do not see as an issue.
Third, Christian nationalism is, again, not relevant to these people. They do not see it as real nor do they see it as a real problem. They may engage with this discussion. So I don’t see a need to reword this one.
Lastly, abortion rights. This isn’t how republicans frame the issue. They view it as a human right and ending a human life early. I don’t agree, but they will not engage with someone asking why they are against “abortion rights”.
Again, let me repeat, I voted straight dem ticket last election. I am only giving my perspective based on interactions with real life republicans.