A lot of societies problems would be solved if they taught about forming healthy relationships in school.
Right now there is a loneliness epidemic throughout the world. More and more people aren't entering relationships. Gen Z men are having significant trouble dating while there are some economic factors in the mix. From my own view and experiences combined with what I've read most Gen Z men are lack the social and communication skills to even enter a relationship. This has and in the future will lead to extreme issues. There's already been a marked rise in hostility towards women by young men (think Andrew Tate and his ilk) that's likely born out of this frustration. I would definitely say there's been a rise in gender hostility ever since the pandemic.
Back in the 50s there was arranged marriages. All a person had to do was just show but now that's gone because it was an unequal system and I think society missed its chance to establish something much healthier and better in its wake. Now we have people that are unable to connect with each other. We just toss people blindly into the mess that is human interaction and relationships and no one knows what to do anymore. We could be have the most fulfilling relationships humans have ever had. Think of the amount of people who would of never have entered abusive relationships had there been someone around them that showed them what love exactly is.
The way we teach is so heavily focused on teaching people how to be worker drones that we forget the human part of the person. This is why a lot of people who do extreme well in school and college fare so poorly in relationships and have higher rates of depression. We are the most educated and advanced in human history, we know psychology, we can teach this shit rather than tossing people blindly into the meat grinder.
Possibly. How about the reality that people are simply not interacting in person but online. I can't believe this is not the first post.
Seriously go out to a bar, a music festival, volunteer, hell get drunk a few times and loosen up. In the 70, 80, 90 right up till 2000 this was every weekend. Hell it is not some work drone thing. That is an excuse. Work later in life is where you actually might meet some friends and from there have drinks after work and maybe that results in a random meeting with some ladies or men in your life.
School won't teach this. Life skills need practice not exams.
Seriously go out to a bar, a music festival, volunteer, hell get drunk
As a non-drinker I find it interesting that 2 out of these 3 things require the use of a drug. (Yes I know, you can order water at bars, but I doubt that was the point of that statement.)
It also helps provide a social standard that anyone can relate to. Seems weird to demand that parents should be the ones solely responsible to make sure their children are able to socialize properly. That just means they're main reference for socializing is just their parents.
Also, great parents still end up with perfectly shit children all the time.
People online just love playing the blame game on others for an individuals actions though lmfao. Poor upbringing, neglect, trauma, all of that is only one part of explaining someone's actions. It doesn't remove the responsibility and free will of the person commiting them lol.
The influence of parenting is extremely overestimated. I think that is also a symptom of a society where people are reluctant to take on responsibility for themselves. Which is also a reason why people lack community because both (responsibility for oneself and functioning relationships) rely on introspection.
I would like to see people educated how to argue without getting personal. And how to communicate that you aren’t in a mood to argue right now, because you’re angry and wouldn’t listen.
Maybe not demonizing bpd. Bpd is treatable and people with bpd already suffer a lot of stigma and psychological pain. They don't act insane just to hurt you or because it brings them pleasure
As a person who has their BPD under control so well that my psychologist doesn't feel fully comfortable diagnosing me with it anymore, seeing stuff about how be need to be avoided still hurts, a lot. I've put in the work, I've never missed an appointment with my current psychologist, I do my best to keep myself stable, and to not hurt others or myself, but I feel like I can never escape this diagnosis. I feel obligated to tell any romantic partners that I have BPD, only for it to be used against me. No matter what I do, I'll always be branded by this, even if I haven't exhibited symptoms for years. I feel like I'll either have to lie to people, or tell them truth and walk on eggshells, afraid that any negative emotion will make them think I'm insane, abusive, or crazy. I just want to live a healthy and happy life.
Yeah, lived through the first 25 years of my life subject to rampant unchecked cluster-B abuse, and nobody even told me things weren't meant to be that way.
I don't give two shits about intent, the impact is the same regardless. Like an overly curious bear or something.
See it, recognise it, walk in the opposite fucking direction. And if it follows you, you scream and throw rocks.
I would add introspection and the experience in calmly process criticism (and that doesn't mean always take it in, depending on the source and quality it sometimes is best ignored) to it.
It's my impression that a lot of interpersonal problems derive from one or both of the parties not being mature as adults: sure, they have the age to be adults (sometimes even seniors) but they're don't have the maturity.
I would change the last point to being aware of the mental health of yourself and those close to you.
Talking about mental health in general is so damn stigmatized but I think if more people were aware of how to identify your everyday mental health concerns (anxiety, depression, eating disorders, mania, OCD, etc) and spoke more openly about our issues and our treatments, we’d be able to build better social support networks.
In fact, you could probably fold a few of your points into that.
Hurt people hurt people, as they say - and that cuts both ways. Yes, you should be kind and supportive if you can, but you aren't obliged to put yourself at risk in order to do so.
Malignant narcissists cause significant, ongoing harm to those they get their hooks into. They may have a terribly sad backstory and lead unpleasant lives, but that doesn't help the victims any.
BPD abusers tend to be less evil-karen on the surface, but their need for ongong validation is just as intense, and they will harm people just as ruthlessly in order to maintain their supply.
I don't think it's unreasonable to point out some red flags to let people steer clear of that risk.
This isn't just an issue in terms of romantic relationships, or gender-specific.
We used to all be exposed to the same media and had common points of reference and interest. It was called water cooler discussion. Unless you're into sports, this doesn't really exist any more.
We used to share a more common set of customs. Schools used to have etiquette/finishing classes. Was a lot of it ultimately arbitrary and made up? Of course, but we were all taught the same things, and they became a common language. You knew to take off your hat/glasses when talking to me to show a level of courtesy and respect, and I knew you were showing respect when you did that. This also worked in terms of things like knowing when to adopt a formal tone with others... many people don't have a formal tone any more, let alone know how to use it.
Everyday life thrust us into more social interaction, too. You used to have to go to stores, talk to people. Even public transport and public spaces used to be a social experience before everyone buried themselves in their mobile phones and headphones. Now the majority of people left trying to interact with you in public are weirdos or trying to sell you something, so people assume anyone approaching you in public is a weirdo or trying to sell you something, suddenly it is taboo to even try to strike up a conversation with a stranger.
And modern outlets like social media encourage some of our worst tendencies. Everything escalates into outrage, tribal warfare, makes us really bad at self-moderation and letting things go.
The-way-things-were was never ideal for a minority of people, but the way things are is ideal for no one. I strongly believe even the innovations that are supposed to help a lot of minorities are hurting them to a degree, too. I fit into a couple of those minority categories myself, and have to force myself to go outside, to use manned checkouts, to put away my phone when outside, as while the alternatives may be easier in the short-term, in the long-term they are making me both physically and mentally less-resiliant.
Yeah, go out and meet random people. Trains are great, as everyone it out of their comfort zone and bored.
Apart from that its pretty hard, because literally staying at home on a single spot, looking in a single direction, seems so fulfilling. Its pretty crazy actually, in the 70s or so nobody would have just sat there and done nothing, even with TVs that was harder and more social.
I think these comments do make good points, but I think you're romanticizing the past a bit. Just because people didn't have computers/cell phones I can assure you plenty of people in the 70s were "doing nothing" in similar ways.
Schools should formally teach a lot of basic life skills these days like budgeting, manners, cooking, hygiene, sex ed — because a lot of parents aren’t doing this anymore.
They used to teach these things in school. Then the boomers axed home economics programs in schools to save a little bit of tax money at the expense of future generations, as they are wont to do.
Yoga (one of my niece's school teaches them basic yoga)
breathing / meditation
conflict resolution
critical thinking skills / logic
relationship skills eg knowing your self-worth, knowing how and when to say no, knowing about your own body and that it's inviolable. If my youngest niece doesn't want to give me a hug goodbye and her mum says "go on give your uncle a hug" I always make a point of saying it's fine, she doesn't have to hug anyone she doesn't want to
In a lot of the California schools I've worked at, they do teach these things. I think they are really great skills that I wish were taught when I was in school.
Unfortunately there's a lot of conservative push back and a movement to get these topics out of school.
Yup. We wonder why young people are committing suicide more often when their entire self worth is based on how good they do in school. You combine that with late stage capitalism necessitating two parents working meaning the child might not even see them that much. More kids are neglected with their grades being the only source of validation. It would help so much of them being taught how to love themselves.
yeah I could not believe how late I was exposed to logic and that I would not have been exposed without college and it needs no high level math or anything to learn. I also wish the time spent in gym was actually useful. any martial art would do to me as well but yoga or tai chi would prevent issues around learining fighting. breathing and meditation should really come from any of that if done decently.
It's quite scary to think that not only are kids not being taught logic, but many are being taught anti-logic; magical thinking etc. It blows my mind that right wingers screech about 'grooming' and indoctrination while they're teaching their kids divisive skybeardguy nonsense. Literally grooming them to be religious.
Imo this is why they pushback and create false equivalence, because they know they're losing their sad little foothold. Notice how whoever is downvoting comments in this thread has nothing to say.
Other than the yoga, my child's public school in Kansas does teach about all of those things. Like we have had conversations about them over the last few years, especially about being able to say no to hugs and other personal contact.
Relationships are discouraged through school, in favor of competition, so we can be more effectively exploited by the elites (and all hierarchical societies). That is by design. Healthy individuals with good relationships are harder to sell to and to exploit. It's relatively hard to convince someone who is satisfied with their life and image to buy something. It's a lot easier to convince them to instead seek emotional satisfaction through excessive buying (escapism). Each new item (or service) you get can temporarily fill the emotional void and provide a fleeting sense of excitement or comfort.
That tends to be how things develop when you're talking about systems. There's not a cackling Bad Guy engineering these things, but a system of socioeconomic carrots and sticks that, right now, favor exploitation. Schools and education happen within that incentive structure so its natural that they would take on it's characteristics.
As you are talking a lot about men, I would say we need to talk about toxic masculinity. Which means basically antisocial, competetive, emotion-suppressing, "talk about things instead of feelings" traits.
Which also is a huge thing capitalism feeds. Noone gets admired for having a healthy relationship with their parents or a few very good friends, but for damn shoes or minicomputers with glass, cameras and sensors everywhere, nobody knew they needed a few decades ago.
So capitalism with ads everywhere and consumerism instead of real values is a huge factor.
If you dont have your own TV, you have to share. No own books, you need to go to the library. No own car, you share it with others.
This is so "uncomfortable", while it would make people meet lots of new friends. I always make nice accquaintances in the train.
And you were off to such a good start, too. If only this didn't predate capitalism by several thousand years :(
It turns out even in a perfectly egalitarian society people will still compete for mates, and where teaching malea how to compete for mates gets filtered through idiocy, you end up with toxic masculinity.
Hell, if you're being totally reductionist (and if you get to be, everyone gets to be), then you're likely to experience more support for toxic traits in both men and women in an egalitarian society, because social differentiation becomes even more important.
They are not being reductionist, not to the degree you are claiming. It’s true it’s more complicated than “capitalism bad!” but you are talking on the other extreme of the spectrum and you are also wrong. Capitalism absolutely encourages and instills messages of “having things and showing disposable income means you are higher class”.
We just toss people blindly into the mess that is human interaction and relationships and no one knows what to do anymore.
I mean, to be fair, that's kind of always been the case to some extent. Not that it's an excuse or a good thing to have, of course.
It is true that schools don't teach many or any life skills, and it's unfortunate. Schools should also teach budgeting and real day-to-day life stuff but they just don't.
The real issue here is that school is a series of trade-offs, and the local community gets a say. When programs are cut, or content doesn't match your expectations, people like to blame something big - "it's the Republicans," or "it's the gays" - and in reality it's just your neighbors prioritize different things than you do.
My school had an entire personal finance class. We learned about compounding interest in math, but some kids really learned it for the first time in PF. They'd learned the math 3 years earlier but didn't care because "it's just math."
The community believed the lie that schools did not teach budgeting, when schools taught all the building blocks of how to budget, and kids couldn't put it together without the set course.
So, they prioritized that course - and the trade-off was that we lost other courses, because there is only so much money and time.
I think people focus way too much on romantic relationships. And many seem to see them as their lazy ticket out of loneliness.
If you want to improve social skills and alleviate loneliness people have to start and grow healthy communities, friendships and family bonds.
Capitalist thinking has reached interpersonal relationships. Instead of seeking community, people focus on how to optimise their dating market strategies and such. That's pretty fucked up.
I think that's also the reason why people lack interpersonal bonds. Investing into communities, friendships, relationships doesn't fit into a world that is focused on linear progress and material gain. Applying this type of thinking (success, optimization, comparison, ...) seems to lead mostly to resentment.
But community is not something you can teach, I think. You can facilitate it by providing opportunities for community building. Like the so called third place and enough time for people to get together casually.
Ultimately it's something we inherit from generations before, though. And we only stray ever further from it. It's in our hands now to do it in our lifes, online and in our neighborhoods etc.
Not true. Its never been as bad as 63% not in relationships and 15% having no close friendships. Its clearly an issue that has gotten worse evertime. Why do you think this period of time is known as the loneliness epidemic.
A vast majority of the non-Western world doesn't see juvenile relationships as conventional or even a good thing. In fact, youngsters fooling around with the opposite sex without parental consent is straight-up delinquent behaviour in almost the entirety of the Middle-East and Asia. What you call "bad" is rather ideal for the better half of the world.
A lot of blind courage is also missing. People used to answer to a lot of blind requests in a way that demanded a leap of faith and an effort to establish their own character. It also had a healthy dose of just wait and see. These days people can weasel out of uninformed situations quite a lot. So, we lean to shallow decision models with fewer good intentions accordingly.
most Gen Z men are lack the social and communication skills to even enter a relationship
Interesting choice of words. I'd say it borders misandry.
I don't think that decrease in social skills of the younger generation influenced solely boys.
That being said it's definitely a greater issue for them, since they are expected to initiate and organize almost everything in the initial phase of relationship. Maybe that's what you meant.
What I've seen (in admittably limited experience) is a decrease of skills all over the board combined with lack of patience and will to improve together.
It’s what recess is for, but we decided to just keep cutting that down because it’s hard to measure progress when kids aren’t sitting at desks filling in scantron ovals.
Exactly. My son's school even had "silent lunch" some days. They treated his ADHD by denying recess most of the time. In high school, he was barred from standing next to his best friend in the stands during football games (they both played trumpet in marching band) because they were talking. There is very little opportunity for children to socialize in school, and most of it is reminiscent of Lord of the Flies.
Socializing in school is only really allowed in the ~20% of time not made up of lectures / homework. E.g. Recess/Lunch/In-between classes. The other 80% is largely made up of lectures and homework. Ideally those percentages should be flipped. 80% learning via social learning(socialization) / 20% lecture.
Call me crazy, but I think humans learn best socially(conversationally) not by lecture via teacher. Talking and socializing should be integrated in how we learn and teach. The learning should largely be social between the students so that they actually learn material instead of just learning to temporarily remember the information for the next test.
The teacher should drift between the groups of students and clear up any misconceptions or disagreements that occur.
"But I love Kristy, and nothing will change that". It's not a rational, teachable topic. Which is why we teach contraception instead of abstinence. Tack on teaching financial well-being if you wanna improve odds of healthy relationships.
I mean you won't be able to save absolutely everyone but you'd be amazed how many get into abusive relationships because they don't know any better. Not even just abusive relationships either just relationships were they aren't valued that much.
You should include what country you are talking about. I know nobody in the USA who had an arranged marriage in the 1950s. They met partners at school, church, and neighborhood/extended family picnics and parties for the most part. They met in stores, libraries, and cafes. We have to maintain public casual community spaces. To paraprhase a Sociology professor I once had: you can't marry someone you never meet. It requires talking to other humans to make even casual friends.
There is some merit in the suggestion. Is there a country we can look to who already has some efforts here in their educational system like maybe Japan?
I think most of our issues are less about education, although it can certainly minimize, and more about how some members of society are wired. Not all brains are the same and some see the world in a more us versus them way.
Back in the day someone's father would teach their son's how to court a woman. I had no real father figure growing up but I was lucky to have met my wife in highschool. I recently asked my grandmother how my grandfather courtes her and it was actually so simple.
Nowadays men and women have unrealistic expectations of each other and what relationship should be. Social media is also put a divide between us and how we communicate with each other from a very young age.
On top of this men have become afraid of failure when it comes to talking to women. This a long with social media saying you are a creep for taking a shot men have been crippled in their confidence.
I believe that social media should not be available to kids and young adults until adulthood. I believe that social media prevents people from socializing properly. Face to face communication with both sexs is crucial for humans.
You are unfairly holding the entire world to your personal myopic standards. Romantic relationships don't hold the same importance for everyone (they aren't even held as positive by many orthodox communities of the world), and the fact that more people have started to avoid having them just out of convention in the West may even be a good thing. Who are you to denounce every single man as someone sick or deficient? Why does the existence of a relationship have to be tied to a person's social skills or standing?
Read generously, OP's point can be taken to refer to relationships generally, i.e. social skills. A lack of engagement with dating in and of itself doesn't point to someone being sick or deficient, it could indicate any number of things. I don't think there's anything implied about judging individuals here.
A societal trend of young people having fewer healthy interpersonal relationships at all is troubling. We're a social species living in a world that requires a certain amount of cooperation both for societal function and individual wellbeing.
Social isolation is a killer, both in terms of its effects on the person isolated and to society at large via the actions of (a statistically higher proportion of) those who are socially isolated.
A call for ameliorative measures against such a trend is not a personal attack on anyone.
Both of you are absolutely right - I think that the OP's emphasis on romantic relations is actually a symptom of the fact that an excessive amount of emphasis is put on forming romantic relationships over platonic ones
I agree. People are unhappy because they've been conditioned to think they lack something vital if they don't have romance. When really, a lot of times we're better off without all that drama.