By that you mean the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and not 'The Jews must be driven to the sea', right?
By that you mean the illegal settlements in the West Bank
This was the interpretation I upvoted for, so I hope it's what was meant.
Oh sweet summer child.
They don't need to be driven away, but the borders of Israel should be dissolved and all housing fairly redistributed.
They can have Germany.
Palestinians have been repeatedly kicked out of their homes for decades and decades ever since the late 40s, with their lands, homes and lives destroyed over and over again. An Israeli person born into the conflict who hasn't actively supported ethnic cleansing isn't guilty. This is a cursed problem because Palestinians deserve to have all the land back, but there are plenty of innocent Israelis who do not deserve to be robbed of their homes due to the crimes of previous generations.
Since Israel's actions have made a 2-state solution impossible, the only potential just solution would be a single state where both Palestinians and Israelis are free and equal citizens, and Palestinians are paid reparations. This is currently impossible because both populations are immersed in a cycle of violence and desire for revenge. So we should, at the very moment, focus on solutions that seek to immediately stop the continued murders, and hope that this calms down the bloodlust as the months and years come by. I don't see any way in which this is possible without the joint efforts of the historical allies of Israel and Hamas twisting their arms in order to prevent further abuse, and possibly establish a justice system that oversees and judges the crimes from actors of one side against the other.
I appreciate this comment. I have had a circular problem trying to determine a way out of the “both sides suck, but right now you suck more”. Now actually convincing the 2 populations this and getting the political will power to enact it is a whole other beast. But for the moment, this internet stranger is on board.
I don't know, the more this goes on the more I can see The Onion Future Report being a possibility...
"Violence reamed the Gaza scrap today as fighting broke out between the one remaining Palestinian and the one remaining Israeli..."
Are the Arab nations that expelled the Jews in the 40s and told them to go to Israel, going to give them their homes and citizenship back?
Didn't think so.
Europe is not Arab nations.
Always fun when people let you know right away that they don't know what they are talking about.
Boy what a hoot these comments are
I knew coming in here they'd be an absolute shitshow and they have not disappointed a bit
If the cartels took complete control of Mexico, stopped all elections, and then stated their goal was to kill all Americans; do you think that we might start patrolling our border a little harder and deliver Mexico a bit of freedom?
The current situation is an absolute disaster and a sad case for innocent civilians who couldn’t even vote out Hamas if they wanted to. But there is a reason that Israel is in the West Bank in the first place, there will never be peace in that region until Hamas is stripped of all power in Gaza. Israel is surrounded by religious extremists on all sides that would genocide them if given the chance.
If the cartels took complete control of Mexico
So, in this situation does Mexico still have an economy? I assume tourism has stopped, but are they still a petroleum exporter? Do they still make cars and trucks for export? Do they still grow Avocados and sell them to the US? Because the Palestinians in Gaza don't really have an economy to speak of, so unless you first reduce Mexico's economy to something barely self-sustaining, it really isn't a fair comparison.
then stated their goal was to kill all Americans
Not much of a cartel if they're killing their best customers.
we might start patrolling our border a little harder
See, that's a key difference. Nobody's saying that Israel shouldn't patrol their own border. What's a bigger issue is that they're patrolling the other borders too. Israel is in a position to cut Gaza off completely. Israel can completely shut off water, food, fuel and power to Gaza. Even before this conflict they shut off tourism and fishing.
In your scenario, imagine the US Navy had carrier strike groups in the Gulf of Mexico and along the Pacific coast, preventing even fishing boats from leaving the Mexican shores. Now imagine the Guatemala and Belize borders were closed too, so that the entire country of Mexico was essentially a prison. That's the situation in Gaza.
Also, in your scenario, is the US government encouraging Americans to move to Mexico and set up little American compounds there, either by building their own houses or by kicking Mexicans out of theirs and moving in? When Americans go to Mexico and take over a Mexican house, are those Americans protected by the US military? And do they get the protection of US laws, as if the families still lived in the US?
there is a reason that Israel is in the West Bank in the first place
Yes, they have extremely unfriendly relationships with almost every neighbouring country, and they seized that territory after one of the many wars with those neighbours, and have continued to occupy it counter to international law. That, of course, leads to extremely unfriendly relationships with almost every neigbouring country, which leads to conflict, which leads to a need to try to control that territory.
there will never be peace in that region until Hamas is stripped of all power in Gaza
And Hamas (or a group like Hamas) will always be popular in Gaza until people in Gaza have a reason to stop hating Israel, which will only happen when Israel changes the way it treats them. But, Israel is unlikely to treat them better because they know that the people there support Hamas (or groups like Hamas) because of how Israel treats them.
I appreciate this post as it adds needed context to the situation especially about the power imbalance between Israel and Palestine that my post doesn’t touch on (I wasn’t trying to mislead, just keep things simple)
Israel, for better or worse (mostly worse for Palestinians in Gaza) get treated like the US’ little brother because they are in an ever important geopolitical location for a US Ally so they get away with more than they should. The violence against Palestinians then creates a vicious cycle of shows of force and retaliation that helps the current Israel regime maintain power and aid as well.
Like a said it’s a horrible situation and there is room to be anti-hamas and pro-palestinian and room to criticize the IDF’s actions and not be anti-Semitic. Thank you for your comment
Let me improve your analogy.
Imagine if the Mexicans say that Mexicans and Natives Americans are the same (even though Mexico has so much European blood and influence) and started claiming the United States and Canada as their holy land. Then every powerful European country agrees with Mexico. The Americans and Canadians will then complain to the UN and the UN will reply "why haven't you just repartitioned your land better with the Mexicans?"
Fucking preach
Gaza West Bank and Israel all have to be dissolved. "Give the land back" implies land can be owned at all, which fundamentally violates the right of others to freedom of movement.
Guthrie said it best,
There was a big, high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said "Private Property"
But on the backside, it didn't say nothing
That side, was made for you and me
What needs to happen is the abolition of Israel and Palestine and the replacement of both with a south levant confederation that absolutely guarantees the equal rights of all citizens, and absolutely cracks down to the draconian nth degree against supremacism or separatism.
The Israelis have ruined the two state solution with their settlements in WB and in the Golan heights, so now they get to live with the consequences of democratic accountability instead of doing the rez shit America pulled where nobody felt like answering if indigenous folks were citizens too until they were demographically outnumbered enough to not retaliate against the politicians that screwed them.
Hamas are not freedom fighters, their the corrupt rez boss family that wittingly or not are the extension of the state's oppression over the people.
Also before anyone tries to cry
wolfAnti-Semite, Israel's a major funder of stateside politicians that ferment antisemitic sentiments by tolerating it among their supporters. Why you may ask? Because American Jews rejected Zionism heavily since their state of being in the US served as a direct refutation of the idea that Jews needed their own ethnostate to ever be safe. Israeli Jews often openly contempt American Jews for being "woke" since even orthodox american Jews can be considered more liberal than their European and Israeli counterparts.Israel wants to make America as hostile to Jews within their borders as possible because every family that flees to Tel Aviv over a swastika painted on the synagogue is another house they get to take from the Palestinians, and another "point" in the score in their vendetta against American Jews having rejected the initial call at Israel's establishment.
A no state solution? I'm in favor.
“Give the land back” implies land can be owned at all, which fundamentally violates the right of others to freedom of movement.
That's a compelling idealistic position. But what we're really looking at right now is a simple "Might Makes Right" arrangement. Israel controls its territory firstly because it successfully perpetrated the Nakba back in '48 and purged its current territory of Palestinians. And secondly because it defeated its neighbors back in the '67 Seven-Day War.
In that sense, the land IS owned. It is owned by the victors in these incredibly violent conflicts.
Hamas are not freedom fighters, their the corrupt rez boss family that wittingly or not are the extension of the state’s oppression over the people.
They're whats left of the government that has been smashed up time and time again by a rival military. If they look and act like a crime family, it might be interesting to interrogate what kind of conflicts other crime families emerged from. Check out Operation Gladio and its influence over Italian-American mafias. Or look into how the collapse of the USSR gave birth to enormous European criminal cartels. Ask what happened in the wake of the American Civil War and how organized crime along the Gulf Coast emerged as a result. Or the Spanish and Chinese Civil Wars, for that matter.
At some point, trying to point at an organization and say "These people are uncompromisingly evil" misses the historical events that gave birth to them. The Israel Government is a consequence of European anti-Semitism and of the Cold War politics of the Middle East. Hamas is a consequence of Israeli police and paramilitary transforming Gaza into an enormous black market by necessity.
What comes next will be a consequence of what came before it. And moralizing the actors does nothing to illuminate what to anticipate next.
Well, the first thing has yet to happen.
Has Israel made any promises about respecting Palestine's right to exist?
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers
the Palestiniansthe governing body of palestinians offered to Israel -None
You want Israel to give land back to Egypt and Jordan?
Why?
No, the current idea is to create a Palestinian state using the land that Israel currently occupies.
In 1988, with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) intention to declare a Palestinian State, Jordan renounced all territorial claims to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories
But I suspect you are trying (and failing) to create some "gotcha" moment. Israel doesn't have the legal right to annex Gaza, the West Bank, or East Jerusalem. They simply control it because they have more guns.
That's not a "current" idea, and is only diplomatically material. Hell it's only historically diplomatically material because Jordan and Egypt don't give a rat's ass about Palestinians after Palestinian refugees attempted coups in their countries.
My point is that the Gaza strip and West Bank were won in the Six Day War from Jordan and Egypt, so I'm not sure who OP means when they say "return land"
Palestine isn't a country, wasn't ever a country, and was only offered the possibility of becoming a country by Israel.
Ever since this happened I have held the firm belief that Russia was behind planning the attack. Russia, in dire need of diversion from their complete failure as a state and as a military power, go to their allies in Iran and ask them to equip the usual gang of fundamentalist extremists with a bunch of rockets and explosives and just sic them on Israel. Like, wag the dog.
The effect it had on media reporting on Ukraine before and after is stark, even though the Russian invasion is a far greater and more urgent existential threat to the west than the latest round in an endless cycle of conflict that's been raging for the better part of a century...
No one ever returns land that's been taken, winners rewards
Honestly it has little to no influence on my life and is too far away for me to really care. It's not like my opinion would change anything anyway.
Yup, I just shut the fuck up and thank god nobody cares what I think about this absolute man-made clusterfuck.
And when you say Israelis should leave, you don't mean Arab or Palestinian Israelis right? We know exactly which kind of Israeli you want specifically removed, the Jewish kind.
But even if we follow your argument, I'm native Mayan/pipil. I'll support your idea that Israel return the land, once you fucking return mine and leave my continent.
Wish we could but like the Palestine/Israel conflict we all know we can't. Just need to score internet points.
Wish also that all this insanity had people being specific about what kind of reparations would help heal the wounds rather than arguing that this is the point where a thousand year's blood feud should end with the complete destruction of an ethnicity.
Both these violent theocracies need to go. Fuck them all.
Sorry, we like it here
So because someone is an idiot, everyone gets to be idiots? I fully support leaving native land to native people, but we gotta start somewhere and that might aswell be Israel/Palestine.
Why?
Why not start by giving all of western Massachusetts back to the Wampanoag, Upstate NY to the Iroquois tribes, and the rest of the US to whichever other native tribe was originally lived there?
Or start by giving Australia back to the aboriginals?
Should apartheid have ended by deporting all the white South Africans back to Europe? Or was it a good thing that it ended by, you know, giving black South Africans rights?
Personally, I'm all for a one state solution, so long as it's one secular, democratic state that protects everyone's rights.
Why am I guessing you're white and blonde with 1/16th Mayan ancestry?
please stop.
"returning the lands" is literally denying Israel's right to existance
No, they (both sides) need to respect the other sides historical right to the land and need accept that they might need to live beside each other if they want to live on that piece of land.
From wikipedia article on a city of Acre:
Today there are roughly 48,000 people who live in Acre. Among Israeli cities, Acre has a relatively high proportion of non-Jewish residents, with 32% of the population being Arab.
Now, how many Jewish residents there are in Gaza strip (after 2005 unilateral disengagement)? Which side seems to respect the other side historical right to live in peace?
No country (ethnostate especially) has a right to exist. The people have rights to live unmolested lives to the fullest (just like the Palestinians), but states have no rights.
Do you know why Israel was created? What happened that caused Jewish people to want to have a place to live?
States have no rights other than those they can enforce at the end of a gun.
Are we referring to the right to exist in ancestral lands where largely, the only claim to such lands are a millennias old religious text? The current occupants of said land have actual, clear historical precedence rooted in fact to occupy said land.
Also, as others have pointed out, I think it's pretty clear that Israel could exist anywhere. The concept of a nation is largely driven by the shared collective of human experiences, culture, norms, and beliefs of the people that inhabit said Nation, not geographical boundaries.
Jews have always lived in that area (called Transjordan) and one of the reasons the British empire created the ethnostate of Israel was to stop another mass exodus of Jews happening. This time in a land where they have lived for thousands of years. Their claim is not different from the one of Palestinians.
There is plenty of archeologial and genetic proof that Jews are native to the area. It's not simply a claim because of religion.
Palestine on the other hand was not happy with the decision from the beginning and didn't want to accept sharing the land with a group that was a (not well liked) minority.
Now we know that probably Israel also wasn't happy with the sharing, though they pretended to be (or perhaps they were, who knows). Because they proceeded to take land from Palestine.
But they need the land their fairytale book specifies, otherwise their magical sky wizard will be angered.
I'd rather not take sides on this clusterfuck of an issue but I do want to point out that if your ancestors leave your homeland for hundreds of years and then you return, your claim to the land in a self-righteous ethnostate is a little questionable.
rent to own?
"Israel" can exist anywhere. Doesn't have to be on top of Palestine.
Where would you recommend they go?
The reason it is where it is now is because they were trying to find somewhere to go when fleeing the Holocaust, and literally everywhere said, "no, eff off" until GB was like, "here, go live in this colony that we have that's kinda your ancestral homeland or whatever."
Yes, that is correct.
Jews are from Judea, Arabs are from Arabia, the Arabs should give the Jews ALL their land back including Jordan, and the Africans all their land back, and fuck off back to Arabia :>/
Genetics and ancestry is a lot more messy than that.
Both Jews and Palestinians seem to have substantial native Levantine DNA with moderate admixtures from different groups.
If Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel despite having a significant amount of European maternal DNA, so are Palestinians. Genetically, Ashkenazim and Palestinians are cousins.
Shhh, your insulting the purity of their blood.
This is what always baffled me.
I'm a 2nd gen Palestinian American, I have more native Levant in me than most of these settler folks and I've never even been there.
This idiot thinks North Africans are Arab invaders
And we should split all mixed people down the middle and scatter their limbs across their respective land? Great idea! *sharpens machete*
Give the Southern Levant back to the Canaanites!
You find me one, and we'll talk. The Jewish people's indiginousy is recorded right there in our DNA for anyone to see. But the Edge lords, Jew baiters, Nazis, Islamofascists, and Anarchists, don't want to have the real conversation about Arab colonialism, and land rights. Doesn't matter to us, at all, we're home now, and we aren't going anywhere without a fight to the last.
I guess you also want all the non-indigenous people in the Americas to move back to where their ancestors came from, too? England and Spain are gonna get really crowded.
GTFO with this racist bullshit. What you're calling for is called ethnic cleansing.
He actually straight up calls it a cleansing in a comment from one day ago:
Hamas and Hezbollah financier, Iran, who calls America the Great Satan, and Israel the Zionist Entity which it will wipe form the history books, two weeks after "Palestinian" Islamofacist Terrorists stormed into Israel and slaughtered, raped, and burnt close to 2 thousand Israelis, concerns are noted.
The war will end, once Hamas and PIJ are cleansed from Gaza, and then Gaza will look far different than it does today, with far greater buffers between where the Arabs will live and the Israeli border. It's not going to end a millisecond before that is achieved, come what may.
We've got the US battle group in the Eastern Med, and we're ready to take on all fucking comers.So yeah, do your part and report this guy. I have multiple times and nothing has been done.
The Bible and all of history disagrees, but u do u.
