No clean hands here. The whole situation is garbage. The particularly salient point is that Israel, as the nation-state actor and a liberal democracy is expected to act more responsibly and with a higher moral character. Bibi's a trash human being, but the longer this goes (and has gone) on the more and more of the culpability is shared by everyday Israelis.
The entire conflict was started by israel when they stole the Palestinians land.
And the only party actively refusing to resolve the conflict is also israel, openly saying they will never acknowledge a Palestinian state and proudly presenting their plans to colonize the west bank as well.
The term "liberal democracy" is rather generous for a Nazi-like apartheid.
No, no, no... Clearly the Palestinians are just squatters when the Israelis, the true indigenous people, went on a little vacation. ...
/s. Are we still doing this?
Horrid take
In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you're saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi's that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
Since you are still under the impression that Hamas indiscriminately killed civilians, here's a nice video explaining what really happened on oct7
So what you're saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi's that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
I can't say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go "your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages", which couldn't be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
Israel is still in the wrong for retaliating to 10/7 at all. If you punch a guy in a bar, then he punches you back, you aren't then allowed to retaliate to the retaliation. Throwing a 3rd punch would mean you are both the starter of the fight, and also responsible for perpetuating it
Exactly, its not Israel that started this war, if you go stab a bear its not really the bears fault when it mauls you.
The bear isn't a democratic society with moral obligations not to commit ethnic cleansing.
Israel is partially to blame for how successful Hamas's attack on October 7th was and of course for the original motivation to commit such strikes.
So if I shot you, it's partly your fault for not dodging, right ?
Except, in this case, you had him tied to a chair first and shot him because he spat on you.
Gaza is just the Stanford Prison Experiment on a larger scale.
Aye stop killing civilians Abraham you cunt
Consistency is not necessary, IMO. What did Israel expect Gaza to do when they started genociding them? The deaths of all civilians as well as all combatants are the fault of Israel. They don't get to play dumb about what was going to happen after starting a genocide.
I disagree. It's difficult to ask perfection from Palestinian resistance but there were still mistakes made. But two wrongs do not make a right and we need to stay morally consistent.
If a Hamas fighter did knowingly shoot a non-combatant then that action is wrong.
Hamas started the war. Hamas took hostages to force a ground campaign. Hamas spent huge amounts of resources building an underground tunnel network. To say they dug in within the civilian population of Gaza is a massive understatement. Hamas does not wear uniforms when they fight.
Those are facts that oversimplified cartoon memes can't change.
Even if we assume everything you said was completely true and without merit... Does it justify IDF knowingly killing civilians?
It's war. If there's a valid military objective, then you hit the target even when you know civilian casualties are possible. Efforts should be made 9and they are) to prevent civilian casualties, but in a war civilian casualties are inevitable.
Hamas knew civilian casualties would happen in the war they started. In fact they started the war by killing civilians. Hamas simply didn't care about civilian casualties, both Israeli and Palestinian.
Isn'treal has been doing a genoicide lots longer than october the 8th, look at the Nakba, Heck look at the statments the government of Isn'treal makes about the palistinians.
The good old cycle of violence, huh? Logically if the Nakba justifies October 7, then October 7 justifies everything that's happening now.
Of course logically speaking, when you choose violence, the only thing that matters is which side has the greater capability of exercising violence on the other. And that side is clearly Israel.
The Nakba may have given Palestinians a stronger hand at the negotiating table. But Palestinians chose Hamas and Hamas chose violence. Their grievances are irrelevant when they commit an act of war.
It is shitty that civilians get caught up in this but I feel it's a lot as if Nazi germany accused the allies of genocide in WW2. There simply is no moral base for this. And let's not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
So what are saying is that because the allies bombed Dresden, the Germans were actually defending themselves against the Jews?
And you say that you agree with the Nazi's committing the Holocaust?
Wtf is wrong with you dude
Half the population wasn't yet born the last time elections were held.
Still they don't do anything to bring change.
8000-9000 dead combatants, 20,000 civilians. Hamas isn't even doing a good job of using human shields. One of the Lord's was before parliament yesterday putting the perspective of that ratio out there. Kudos to Israel for their hard work in protecting civilians in the Urban warfare they're engaged in was essentially the summary. 2:1 is apparently much better than the 6:1 typical of situations like this. Still too many people dying. The rockets need to stop ASAP.
Where does your 8000 number come from? So far we have not seen any credible claims of how many Combatants were killed.
We only know that 2/3 people killed by israel are women and children. Which means the civilian casualty ratio is likely far higher.
By the way the civilian casualty ratio on Oct7 was 2:1, even including all the civilians killed by the IDF. Do you praise Hamas?
Same place the 27000 comes from. Intelligence reporting from the region.
The 2/3rds women and children....how many of those children were fighters? You've gotta be really fucking stupid to accept that the under 18 crowd there isn't taking up arms, we've got hours of footage direct from Hamas and UNRWA proving otherwise.
That you're conflating the attack that started this war with the response, that you're comparing reservists pulled from their beds and taken hostage to the Palestinians using 5 year olds as human shields really does show your ignorance and bias here. If you think the rules of engagement should be those of 10/7, then so be it. Thankfully Israel holds itself to a higher standard than the likes of Hamas and yourself.
"We would like to extend congratulations to Israel for only grinding up two orphans for every enemy combatant when they could be grinding up six orphans for every enemy combatant"
What a bullshit line of reasoning. I'm not blaming you, to be clear. I'm blaming the unwiped asshole who decided that spinning this into good news was the only positive thing they could say.
Even IDF skewed exaggeratd false numbers admited they kill 70% kids and women to 30% Men aka Hamas. Where did you get that 2:1 from? Do you feel better to make up things just to not face the reality that Israel is an aparthied state and genocidal terrorists who kill babies in incubators, cripple and amputate kids, bomb and shoot women little kids hiding in their houses and cars?
The ratio was presented by a Lord in Parliament yesterday. Didn't catch his name, he was some sort of historian. I'm sure you can find it in the record, it was in session. The absurdity of calling Israel an apartheid state when Arabs sit in Parliament, on the Courts and in political office, while the street signs are Arabic and Hebrew is utterly absurd. Do you know any Israeli Arabs? They've been among the loudest supporters of Zionism out there since October. That statement alone identifies you as an absolute joke.
