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It is shitty that civilians get caught up in this but I feel it's a lot as if Nazi germany accused the allies of genocide in WW2. There simply is no moral base for this. And let's not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
So what are saying is that because the allies bombed Dresden, the Germans were actually defending themselves against the Jews?
And you say that you agree with the Nazi's committing the Holocaust?
Wtf is wrong with you dude
What? What I mean is if you vote for the extremists, don't be suprised pickachu face if your male population is decimated and your capital looks like Berlin 1945 afterwards.
I didn't vote for Trump, but I should be killed because he got into power anyways? That's fucked up, especially since Hamas was financially supported by israel
If Trumps insanity escalates too much and you fail to distance yourself sufficiently then at one point thats the only way.
Think about it from the other side: was it wrong to accept collateral damage to german civilians in order to stop the Nazis? How is this different?
First, how is it different?
That was a traditional war, with opposing armies facing each other in combat. Palestine cannot have an army due to the oslo accords.
The majority of the people killed in WWII Germany were the victims of the Holocaust, then the German soldiers, not civilians. Here, the vast majority killed are civilians, not the Hamas combatants.
The goal of the Allies was to end the war. The goal of israel is revenge and (depending on which israeli you ask) the elimination of the state is Palestine.
Second, no I don't think that the German civilian deaths were fine. Just like I don't agree with dropping atomic bombs on two Japanese civilian towns. And WWII is infamous for being brutal, inhumane, and a repulsive example of human hatred and violence.
So to summarize, killing innocent people is bad. The people dying don't deserve to die and don't have to die. israel should stop.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians, they are getting caught up because Hamas uses human shield tactics that maximize civilian deaths. Israel also is not in to destroy palestine or for revenge, they are in for destroying Hamas. And when dealing with extremists you have to go for full surrender, always was like this thoughout history and it's also true here. War has changed that's true and Israel is making use of that to minimize civilian deaths, did you note how they are using guided bombs instead if carpet bombing for instance? Still it's impossible to save every innocent civilian and it is an infeasible standard for a war even in this day and age.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians
Well that's just objectively wrong.
Israel dropped more bombs to Gaza in a week than the US did in Afghanistan... in a year.
But you'll criticise the sources so let's go with the UN (although IDF trolls will still complain that UN is somehow controlled by Hamas or smth equally silly)
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15564.doc.htm
As Israel’s Aerial Bombardments Intensify, ‘There Is No Safe Place in Gaza’, Humanitarian Affairs Chief Warns Security Council
Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people
GENEVA (16 November 2023) – Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to “destroy the Palestinian people under occupation”, loud calls for a ‘second Nakba’ in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.
At least 95 civilians – nearly half of them children – killed in four unlawful strikes in Rafah
Attacks took place in southern governorate supposed to be “safe”
All four strikes are likely direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects and must be investigated as war crimes
Tldr gtf on out of here, idf troll
Hamas hasn't held an election since 2006. In that election, 45% of the population voted for Hamas, 42% voted for the Fatah, and the remaining 13% voted for smaller parties. Half of Gaza is under 18 and 65% percent of the population is younger than the 25 years old.
So what you're saying is that Gazans should expect to be murdered because, in an election held when the majority of them were too young to vote and half of them weren't even alive, a minority of people voted for extremists. Great point dude.
It's not like public opinion has changed much in palestine, check the other comments for sources.
But ultimately I believe that people are responsible for their government. If you are born in gaza, realize that Hamas is shit but don't try to bring change through protests or organizing opposition and also don't leave but stay, go on with your live and pay your taxes to Hamas etc. then you're part of the problem. Otherwise what is left? Hamas being untouchable due to the people acting as human shields? In my book that's way worse.
Totally dude, totally. If I were a child growing up in Gaza, and I lived in poverty, with poor access to food and medicine because of Israeli blockades, while thousands of my countrymen where killed or displaced by Israeli air raids or gunned down by the IDF for protesting...well, obviously I would want to overthrow Hamas. I would definitely hate the group fighting the country makes my life hell, and I would definitely try get Hamas out of power.
Like you said, people are responsible for their government, and the people of Gaza (who are, again, HALF CHILDREN) are responsible for removing these extremists from power, even though they don't hold elections. Another great take dude.
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity? And you think after what happened Israel should just accept Hamas at their border and wait it out for the next attack?
Sucks for the kids but it's also pretty bad for the Israeli children that are still in captivity btw. Should Israel just give up on them?
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity?
Holy shit the Israeli propaganda is strong.
After more than a month of the Israeli government’s unlawful blockade of Gaza, which has included catastrophic cuts to water, fuel, and electricity, as well as very limited deliveries of food, water, and medical supplies, the lack of clean water is resulting in “grave concerns” by public health experts of an imminent infectious disease outbreak in Gaza, including waterborne illnesses like cholera and typhoid.
Israel is genociding Palestinians. This is not some controversial take. It's the stance of the UN and the majority of the international community, supported by mountains of evidence.
Yet still pigs like you dare write garbage comments like that
I mean that's exactly what I am talking about. How was Israel in a position to cut anything? Because it was them supplying in the first place. To you expect them to keep on feeding and supplying after the attacks? You kill my festival goers and cry foul if I stop giving water and electricity in return? Maybe don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Honestly, it blows my fucking mind how utterly delusional people like you are.
A hypothetical, if you will: you own a house and assume (for some legitimate reason) that you own the land around it as well. Well, the state informs you that you don't actually own the whole land and I'm gonna build a house next to you.
No issue there, plenty to go around. But then for the next few generations, I keep annexing your land bit by bit. I even annex most of your house, and now you're living in the cupboard under the stairs, because I made you.
Would you feel anger? Well, that's irrelevant. At that point, you're dependent on me, because of my actions.
Does that justify then locking you in the cupboard without food, electricity or water? Does that make it okay for me to deprive you of basic human rights?
Especially because you didn't even do anything. It was your violent cousin that you have no contact with and who you think should be in jail. But he shares your surname, so I use that to justify my crimes against you.
UN notes I'm wrong. A majority of the international community agrees I'm breaking your basic human rights.
I still refuse to admit I'm doing anything wrong.
End of hypothetical. Do you see anything wrong with it?
No. And now you'll regurgitate some more zionist prppaganda while completely ignoring the UN's position that Israel is committing warcrimes. You simply can not admit any flaw with Israel, because of your programming.
Please. Please, prove me wrong.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/02/1146587
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/02/1146242
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/09/un-court-has-ruled-on-gaza-genocide-case-heres-what-happens-now.html
Did I say I approve the land stealing and settlement policies? What I said is that going on a killing spree and running amok on a music festival is not an acceptable reaction, even if you're being treated unfair and your land is being stolen. And if your government thinks it is then this kinda does become your responsibility.
A) No, I mean the blockades that have been going on since 2007. They limit necessary supplies to Gaza and are the reason it has been called an, "open-air prison." B) Israel is the occupying force in Gaza and therefore has a legal obligation to supply Gaza with water and power under the Oslo Accords. C) Israel has been failing in that obligation, because for years 97% of the drinking water has been below the minimum safety standards for human consumption.
Anyway, again, really great points, really showing your knowledge of the conflict here.
I mean there are also legal frameworks in place that prohibit kidnapping your neighbours kids and shooting up their music festivals. Somehow Hamas gets to break this but Israel is still bound to Oslo accords?
Great question! There are two possible answers: 1. Israel is a democratic nation that respects human rights, in which case it needs to behave in accordance with international law or 2. Israel is, like Hamas, a nation of extremists using violence against civilians to achieve its political goals, in which case it needs to be treated like any rogue nation. So, since you invited the comparison, you tell me; does Israel need to hold itself to a higher ethical code than Hamas, or are they the same as them?
Well I think you also forfeit some of our your legal rights after you commit crimes? And certainly that doesn't make Israel a rogue nation or just as bad as Hamas. There's nuance and middle ground, it's not black and white. The USA one-sidedly canceled the Iran nuclear treaty and the Paris climate agreement and they never accepted the ICC, that's shitty but would you argue it makes them a rogue nation just as bad as Hamas? I don't think so.
Great job blaming THE LITERAL VICTEMS OF GENOCIDE FOR THEIR GENOCIDE,
So the palestinians are being victimized both by Hamas and Israel and they have no control of their live whatsoever? If this is your take then why do they choose to stay and why do they choose to bring kids into an environment like this?
No, my stance is that Isn'treal is comitting a gennocide aganst palistine. Hamas is not victimising anyone here, they are in effect one of the organizations the opressed are using to fight back.
As for why they "chose to stay" where do they have to go, for the VAST majority not only is palistine the only place they have citizenship to, its also their home, and most people do not take kindly to an invador trying to take it, or to wipe you and your culture out.
As for why have children, because 1) why aid the genocide and 2) they are still humans doing human things, they still want families, they still have hope for a future, when things get bad we dont just stop having offspring.
Bullshit, the invader didn't exactly come unprovoked did it? People couldve stayed inside Gaza and live peacefully but no that's not enough somehow. They somehow have to constantly attack their neighbour and then cry foul when they loose. When they could've just as well directed this energy into improving Gaza and making it more liveable. And of course Hamas is merely fighting oppression, after all parading naked bodies of girls that they raped to death is just what freedom fighters do right?
Except they could not, Isn'treal kept encroching with their illegal settlements, also look up the Nakba, they where the ones who drew first blood, not the Palistinians. When you are being activly opressed, you do not lie down and make your getto more livable you fight the opression
also there is no evidence of Hamas raping anyone... let alone parading it arround, you know who has reports of raping women though, that is right Isn'treal. so maybe stop speaking out of your god damn ass, and stop suporting the genocider. Opressed people have a moral right to fight back aganst their opressor.
Im referring to the case of Shani Louk among others, go look up the videos if you can stomach it. Somehow I don't see this behaviour on IDF side, they also don't attack music festivals or take 4yo kids as hostages. Hamas has lost any credibility and certainly has no moral right to anything anymore. The case of settlements might be shitty but they are no justification for any of this.
And let's not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
So was Putin...
Same story, ultimately russians are responsible for Putin.
Yes but apart from the usual cynicism you can't know how bad a politician will be. Putin and Hamas have not had real democratic elections for a long time now. Longer than the expected term length. Are civilians really responsible for this? Would you risk your life and that of your family to revolt against dictators? Because that's what you're asking people to do.
On the topic of Hama' rise to power though, who created the circumstances for Palestinians to make Hamas a good option?
If you don't want to risk your life at the very least you can stop contributing and leave. And personally that would also have been my choice.
Palestinians had plenty of options and a shit ton of development aid and charity money to improve their place. Hamas was far from their only option.
Yes they have it so easy /s
Half the population wasn't yet born the last time elections were held.
Still they don't do anything to bring change.