Slava Israel 🇮🇱
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more nuanced. Both countries' current heads of state are kinda like "all this land is my country's, the other country should not exist." It's unclear who is right.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other, the other just want it back. Ukraine's government is not claiming half of Russia.
"Unclear who is right"
No it's pretty clear, out with the colonizer government. How is this a question?
Edit: removed implied support for Hamas. Both militaries should burn. Hope for a quick end to the conflict for the sake of the civilians affected.
At the end of the day who is Isreal and who Palestine. If no one who was alive when Palestine was around can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to "Palestine". It's like the ship Theseus or something. Maybe I'm just dumb as fuck.
Just make the fuck up and work together instead of being greedy bigots.
Palestine has attacked territory that was assigned to Palestine by the UN in 1947. The UN also makes it very clear that a country may lawfully recover occupied territory "by any means, including armed force". UN laws are thus very clear: Ukraine and Palestine can recover territories by force. Now, that doesn't mean you should support them in their struggle to do so, but if you don't, it must be for some other reason (e.g., Israel taking over would constitute a huge strategic gain for the US, while Russia taking over would destabilize the world and thus benefit small or weakly aligned players).
I get that there is lot more nuances than russo-ukrainian, but imo there is a lot more similarities than you seem to imply : both Russia and Israel claimed that the land belonged to them before, that they should get it back, and use violence to kill local people who tried to resist or move them. The only difference is that Israel did it with the help of western countries and partially according to their laws, so they get like an aura of legitimity, but the acts remains quite close.
I do not like when people basically do not accept violent behavior but accepts them when they are allowed by some law or authority.
(Also yes Hamas is doing bad things and should be held accountable in some way, just like Ukraine to my eyes. But still, for me it remains obvious who kills more, who steals more, who oppresses more)
As a Ukrainian, let's sort out what we're accountable for once we're not getting genocided. We also have a lot of questions to our own government, but I would still prefer it to the Russian
all this land is my country's, the other country should not exist.
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says "your country shouldn't exist only mine!" and I am a country that multi-religious, and say "actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one", you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other
Russia's original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine's attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called "de-nazification" of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine's bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.
Russias pretext for the war is complete horseshit. They have been supporting the rebels in these breakaway republics that magically appeared just after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Their support went beyond the usual proxy war/hybrid warfare bs, as hundreds of russian armed service men were confirmed KIA in Donezk and Luhansk.
Also there's not a shred of evidence for the secret nazi government of Ukraine (led by a Jewish president) and Ukraines bid to join nato was 1. Years of not decades from its realization and 2. None of Russias business.
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
Is that the line this week? They've been moving the goalposts so rapidly they must be on wheels (and better maintained wheels than the Russian army)
The Russian propagandista changed their lines so many times it's blindingly obvious that there's no greater good and it was supposed to be a land-grab just like when they invaded and annexed Crimea
I feel like the people should have some say in who they want governing them.
It’s unclear who is right.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/
- Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;
Seems pretty clear.
"Lets have some nuance" people on their way to defend Nazi war criminals
Its unlcear who is right? Tell me, who lived there first before the US swung its dick around and displaced all of them?
True
Idk if this is a hot take, but imo the war in Ukraine is pretty clear city while the Palestinian and Israeli conflict his an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances.
It's far less controversial to say the former is Russia's fault than it is to say the latter is either Palestine's or Israel's fault.
Yeah mostly because isreal/ Palestine conflict is much older then russia/Ukraine so a lot of things happened. But at it's very core they both started because of the same claim : russia claimed used to own Ukraine so they want it back. The jews used to own Palestine so they want it back. So if you support Ukraine and isreal you're just a hypocrite
I haven't seen anyone here "support Israel". Almost everyone agrees that the Israeli State is not free of guilt, far from it.
What people really disagree over is whether that alone makes Palestine right (nuanced) and whether it justifies Hamas' actions (unhinged but unfortunately semi-common take on here).
I mean, if you go further back than 1947/1948, didn't the Palestinians used to own Israel? Or do we want to go even further back, to about 1200 BCE?
No its not that complicated. Israel are straight up shit stains generally speaking. Have been since they immigrated to Jerusalem and then ran a coup with western support. Imagine if Russians showed up in your backyard one day took over your house and then started killing your neighbors. Meanwhile china sitting there going 'looks good to me guys!'
Swap out relative names with jews and usa.
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Palestinian conflict is very simple: an army vs civilians. Only gonna end when all the latter are dead.
Should we ever try to sanction that army? Never! Should we try sanctioning US for killing million iraqis who had not a WMD? No! Should we sanction Nato for bombing the wealthiest african estate libya to it's ruin? Ah wait, WE are Nato. Can't shoot own ankle.
You can't compare these 2 conflicts at all.
Why? Because the west supports the occupied in one and the occupier in the other? Don't forget the west expected Ukraine to be an occupied state with a gorilla insurgency within a few weeks at the start of the conflict.
Edit: because I am getting the expected hate. The Palestinians didn't start out as Hamas. The extremism of Hamas was born out of the lack of action from former moderates. People will always become more extreme when they are met with a lack of action. That goes for the left and the right.
So ask yourself if someone came to your house and told you to leave how angry would you be? If you don't understand this look up the actions of the Israeli settlements.
gorilla insurgency
I've seen so many stupid takes today, and this is one of them. The conflicts aren't similar!
They're not identical, but they have similarities. What Russia is trying to do to Ukraine is not dissimilar to what Israel did to Palestine half a century ago.
In what ways are they different that it justifies supporting Ukraine but not Palestine?
No one is saying they're identical. But there are similarities.
Dumb meme, the 2 situations are not similar.
HAMAS isn't Palestine. Israel isn't Judaism.
And Israel has a history of propping up Hamas. They even admit it.
IMO everyone should leave everyone else the fuck alone and stop trying to be modern empires, but come on man, these are VERY different situations.
(Edit: what I'm about to say is a good bit wrong, but I'm not going to try and hide my mistakes. This article has a more complete history: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/why-israel-and-palestine-conflict-war-history-b2426050.html)
I don't support the violence at all, but this isn't a (direct) result of imperialism.
After WW2, the Allies were like, "what do we do with all these Jews? We don't want them in our countries." Then they thought, "why not Jerusalem?" But a bunch of Arabs were living there, but the Allies really didn't want more Jews, so they just dumped them all in modern Israel, told the Arabs this is Jews' land now, and recognized Israel as a state. Palestine has a right to be pissed. So this isn't so much an imperialism problem as much as a racism problem.
But still, Hamas are evil fuckers that take shit too far. Israel definitely is not the good guy and is not helping the situation at all, but this kind of escalation just makes shit worse for everyone.
"why not Jerusalem?"
That wasn't the allies, zionism predates the holocaust by decades, it's the literal promised land from their stupid fucking religion.
ho boy, here we go again.
At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it. So all I can do is judge both sides by their current actions without historical justification which, to me, results in fanatical religious fascists fighting fanatical religious fascists with neither side caring for civilian casualties. Not exactly a situation in which I'd support any side tbh.
Thank you. There's way too many people claiming one or the other side is justified or worse and frankly at this point they've both committed so many atrocities against one another that it's hard to have an emotional or subjective response other than, they're both pretty shitty.
Also just looking at history isn't going to solve anything. If that was the only solution we can just get any map remove all borders everywhere and discus how to draw them based on history. We all know this is just going to be a never ending discussion because it just depends on what snapshot in time (of the world) you take as your truth.
At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it.
You know very well who started it. You just want to pretend that historical facts are lost to the sands of time because they're damaging to your centrist bullshit.
Just out of curiosity what do you think should happen? Should Israel just give up the land to Palestinians? Should Palestinians give up the land to Israel? Should they coexist and if so how do you see that happening? I really am asking because I really don't understand how "how it started" is going to make a peaceful ending. I also don't understand why anyone who isn't from the locality and impacted by it should be stepping in for either side of what amounts to civil war. Especially not America who has a habit of doing so all over the world which usually ends badly for the people who live there when our puppet regimes tank.
no historical context needed. History is not useful at all to understand current actions. Do your own research, but i can tell you The british supported jewish militias, to occupy that territory (under british control). That started the ethnic cleasing of palestinians in 1948, displacing millions. I dont know how to link stuff pls help me
Hurr durr, now that a palestinian terrorist group is attacking is the best moment to be vocal about palestinian freedom
And you people wonder why you get downvoted?
You're telling on yourself. You genuinely don't give a shit about the Palestinian struggle. You just want them to sit down and take their genocide.
Warning: Some super-unique hot takes from edgelords here!
Proceed with caution...
You ruined the surprise!!!!
Ppl who have no idea how palestinian conflict started half a century ago commenting like 'completely different cases!'
Same ppl fifty years later and war continues in Ukraine: 'ok, now I get it'
It all started with this fuckin' Serbian dude getting a sandwich...
I'm so proud of my government for acting consistently. They support Russia and Israel.
(I get why they're doing it, but it still feels wrong.)
Let me guess... India?
Of course. Russia I expected, but I didn't know our government wanted Pegasus so badly.
Tasteless
Palestine needs a state and so does Israel
Broke: Two-state solution
Woke: One-state solution
Bespoke: Zero-state solution
Ukraine is simply more important to the countries bordering russia, the EU and it's allies
Ukraine is a sovereign nation that got attacked by another country.
Palestine just carried out a horrible attack on Israel. Plus the history of Israel and Palestine is totally different. It's just apples and oranges. I'm not claiming in any way Israel is right here, but Hamas is definitely scum of the Earth.
Let me introduce you to the conflict. Hamas' behavior is a natural reaction to what israel has been doing for decades and will continue to happen. Both groups are insane fundamentalists. The only difference between them is one has the backing of the superpower and its media apparatus.
Cant they just give the whole land to the Arabs, declare Jerusalem as a religious state (like Vatican City) and create a new Capital for the new Palestine Land?
I am anti oppressors and warcryers, sympathic to defenders, protectors and the dead. sometimes who the oppressor charges. I know asking doesn’t help but like please everyone stop killing eachother..
Both suck to be fair but Israel for me suck less. My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US. Israel though recently leaning more to the extreme right, is still liberal compared to the rest of the nations in middle east. Woman has more freedom under Israel it seems. LGBT is more supported in Israel. For Hamas on the other hand has the same vibe for me with Taliban it doesn't help that it is supported by Iran and Russia. As for Ukraine I support them since they lean more to the West (EU and the US) and they are more democratic than Russia. That's my thought anyway.
I'd keep my hand up
I love how the upvote/downvote rate is almost 1
Western hypocricy never ceases to amaze
What if I told you stuff is always "amazing you" because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of them.
Go ask the Palestinians if US intervention has been a big misunderstanding and they're actually looking out for them and bringing them democracy like they say
You said "western hypocracy" while I blame ignorance about history as a bigger matter here
In every sense of the word, you are the only hypocrite here
Simple, Palestinians are brown and have less resources that America wants/needs.
I’m with both Palestinians and Ukrainians.
Palestine has oil and gas same with Ukraine.
Aha i'm going to have fun reading the comments. Liberals let their fascism show whenever geopolitics get involved.
Says who buddy Bidens ass is getting reamed on this one
idk, from an american perspective, pretty sure the americans that support Ukraine also support Palestine, whereas the americans that support Russia also support Israel.
mostly certain.
No, there is a big group that supports Ukraine and Israel.
And that group includes a majority in Congress, President Biden and (in Ukraine) president Zelensky.
And then there are also the tankies that support Palestine and Russia.
Finally, a lot of people are neutral or non-aligned in Israel vs Palestine, including myself, but definitely pro-Ukraine.
I absolutely cannot keep track of the layers of betrayal and reconciliation. Anyone who tells you that an issue in the Middle East is certain is, at best, benignly unaware. It is utterly unsalvageable on both sides.
pretty sure the americans that support Ukraine also support Palestine
I'd like to see those people square that up with this: https://thelemmy.club/pictrs/image/90177c67-3aa3-4cb6-88cb-72c96b2a441d.jpeg
i mean, supporting a country's current struggle doesn't equal supporting every view of that country's leader.
shrug
But Israel supports Ukraine, hmmmm.
Because the TV tells them who to support
