it's weird that we are prepared to die for democracy, yet willingly enter dictatorships daily for work and spend the majority of our waking lives with people we vaguely know
The power a government has over you, and the power your employer has over you, are totally different.
The government is legally authorized to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, and even your life in extremis. Your boss can't do any of that and if they try the government should stop them.
Some people believe democracy is what prevents the government from punishing you capriciously, or allowing corporations to just do whatever they want to you. So they are willing to die to defend it.
I would say traditional liberal ideals are closer to what they'd want to defend than democracy itself, and I don't 100% agree in either case, but I can see the point of view.
The government is legally authorized to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, and even your life in extremis. Your boss can’t do any of that and if they try the government should stop them.
there was just a work email put out where I work about how employees shouldn't be going to the bathroom super often and if they are in the bathroom they should only be doing bathroom things.
I can't report them for that but it is fucking extreme and dehumanizing. To be policed in the bathroom. Because company time is more important than bodily functions. Or whatever other reason someone might be in the bathroom.
This is true for most people, but not all. Of course not being able to do so would constitute a form of slavery, but that is just the reality for a lot of people and I think if we are honest about the world we should admit that. Do agree softly on not downplaying political dictatorships though.
Unless you're a literal slave (which is a different problem) you're free to leave those jobs, just you might have to move (leaving family and friends) or you might never make as much money/your lifestyle suffers. That's vastly different from "if you leave your job we may literally kill you or throw you in a prison cell where you won't see daylight for days, weeks, months, or years."
Don't get me wrong, those people trapped in their jobs by circumstance are not in envious situations (and in many contexts their issues should be taken seriously), but they're still way better off than many in true dictatorships.
You can argue that both don't provide "real choices" but one really doesn't provide choices.
Yeah, this thought is someone trying to compare apples to oranges.
Then there’s the throw away comment of how you barely know anyone there, that’s a personal thing. I work for a small company now but I used to work for a hospital with over 2,000 employees, I didn’t know most of them but I knew the 100 or so people I interacted with pretty well and did things outside of work with many of them on more than one occasion.
As I walk through the front door of my air-conditioned office building and say hello to the receptionist I can't help but feel this is just what it was like living under Marcos or Pinochet.
Plenty of people live comfortable lives under dictatorship, you can compare that office worker to a citizen in Qatar and they'd probably live similar lives materially.
You could also compare the sweat shop worker for the company that office workers company contracts their manufacturing out to, to the migrant pseudo-slave workers in Qatar.
To the level that the corporation has control over your life, yeah. What do you think banana republics are? The more the company can control your life, the more its undemocratic nature becomes apparent. Working for a small company in a competitive market might not look like a company town, but it has the same fundamental structure as one. The main difference is that the small company has to offer a good deal to their employees compared to competitors. If the company is the only hirer in town, then they'll suddenly not have as much motivation to treat you well. If they control the housing, means of travel, and cops as well, you're basically enslaved.
The CEO can take away your livelihood at a whim, destroying your future career, and everyone has to tug the forelock.
Dictatorships are not bad in and of themselves. A benign dictatorship could be the most effective form of governing, there's just no mechanism to stop them when they stop being benign.
And on the flip side a CEO can improve and expand many people’s careers and therefore wealth.
A dictatorship like Mao Zedong, Mussolini, Hitler, etc can flow all the wealth and power to themselves, oppressing the people under them.
The point it: You can’t talk about best case scenario of one and not the other. Usually, as it’s human nature, both are going to sequester wealth and power for themselves over the people under them, but a bad dictatorship is leagues worse than a bad company/CEO.
But we don't need to accept a dictatorship to work. We should be working towards democratizing the workplace, forming unions, and creating worker owned businesses.
It's not an issue, that's just an effect of the sarcastic phrasing. There's kind of an embedded notion within the original thought that people actually do this by choice. I think most work in dictatorial companies because there's really no other choice except destitution.
The overlap of people willing to let themselves be beat down and exploited at work, and the people that would actually fight and die for democracy is slim to none.
You are incorrect. I absolutely run my businesses as a dictatorship because I’m the owner. We don’t “vote” on what to do, if you don’t like my ideas you are FIRED. Same goes for my tenants, if you don’t like my rules then get out of my property!!
I dictatorship would mean they'd die if they didn't do what you liked lol. It's in a government context, not a contractual obligation. A tennet can find another place to live, and a worker can find another company.
It's... not weird at all. Democracy is a form of governance that permeates all our lives and controls the state that has a monopoly of violence that can be used against us and take away our rights. It's not something we can opt-out of so it's important that everyone has a say in it.
Small groups forming to do things like commerce or non-profits or whatever are completely voluntary and can't take our rights away. The fact is, these authoritarian-like structures are efficient and effective. Even employee-owned corporations tend to organize this way by electing the officers.
Would love to see more companies experiment with democratic organizations though.
You think a company should pay you even if you decide not to work? As much as I wish the universe rained down food, housing, and smart phone but the reality is that it cares not of you get a meal at the end of the day.
sure, just sign up to like 10 credit cards, max them out getting good reliable camping equipment, and take a large loan out for one of those survival vans and flea the country
sure, just sign up to like 10 credit cards, max them out getting good reliable camping equipment, and take a large loan out for one of those survival vans and flea the country
This must be the same thought process of the people I see living in camping vans and tents down the street from me.
I feel like most ukrainians aren't fighting for democracy. They're kleptocracy is marginally better than the one in Russia, but not worth dying over. Their fighting either for nationalism and hatred of Russian imperialism that's oppressed them for centuries, or personal honor and fear of being called a coward by their wider social group.
In general nationalism and personal honor are the main reasons people will voluntarily sign up, outside of personal gain and mercenaries. In the west that nationalism gets tied up with ideas of democracy, but if a dictatorship took over the u.s. I doubt there'd be much of a difference in volunteers for the next war.
I worked for a cooperative once. It had its upsides. But it eventually lost steam because of the diffusion of responsibility. At its peak it had a strong core council of 5-7 official members looking after it and it flourished. But it was somewhat of a labor of love and over time they had kids, moved away, etc and eventually there just weren’t enough committed core people to keep it going.
A small business generally has one person who is ready to do absolutely whatever it takes to make it a success. This can be game changing. All their skin is in the game. If they have to skip a paycheck they do. If they have to work all night they do.
And if you work at a company and the leadership becomes burdened with other life events? They delegate management to someone whose job it is to keep things running smoothly.
Co-ops can work that way too lol, there's a co-op in Spain with 75,000 employees.
TL;DR people forget that like 90% of businesses fail, of fucking course co-ops are no different
In a workplace you're trading your labour, skills, and time for money. Think of it more like a convenience store, do you get to vote for the guy behind the counter, do you get to vote for the prices of the products? How would a convenience store be able to function if the customers could vote on these things?
Democracy works with government because most voters are also taxpayers. There's a an incentive not to vote for things that aren't affordable because the people voting have to pay for it.
Plenty of businesses function with workers in control.
Also, the basic understanding (though not totally accurate) is that customers do vote on prices by choosing what, where, and when to purchase. The issue is they don't organize to vote on it, and businesses do shady deals to rig the vote.
In a workplace you’re trading your labour, skills, and time for money. Think of it more like a convenience store, do you get to vote for the guy behind the counter, do you get to vote for the prices of the products? How would a convenience store be able to function if the customers could vote on these things?
Isn't that supply and demand? If something doesn't sell enough, it stops being on the shelf. You vote with your purchases.
Some places even give out surveys where you would rate the person who helped you. Some places take those surveys seriously and if you get bad ratings, they fire you.
Every single civilization with every single type of governance in human history requires most people to work. That will continue to be the case for a long time into the future.
Is the current system perfect? No. However it does allow for a greater degree of latitude than basically everything that came before it. It also has safeguards to ensure there's some sort of safety net if you fall on hard times.
You also mentioned democracy. Assuming you live in America, you can vote in a way that introduces reform to the system.
Starting a violent revolution is a last resort sort of thing.
Yes that actually the key difference. We willingly enter those communist dictatorships and we are not prisoners there but can leave.
That is fundamentally different than a place like a communist dictatorship country, which builds walls to turn itself into a prison.
Being willing to enter and able to leave a dictatorship makes it a whole different thing than a dictatorship you are born into, and cannot leave.
Consent is everything. Like, a person can tie you up, beat you with a whip, pour hot wax on your skin to burn you, and put clothes pins on your nipples, and it’s okay as long as there’s consent. That is, objectively, a bad way to treat someone. But consent changes everything.
And it goes the other way too. Helping a person without their consent is wrong. This is the problem with a lot of the social movements these days: not seeking consent from those they seek to help.
Well, he argued that we should all submit ourselves to an absolute sovereign, by which he meant a king or queen. Unfortunately he kind of lost out that argument since most places have rejected absolute monarchy, but luckily, people can still submit themselves to the new ruling class of business and property owners 😊
Not everyone can just quit and do a different job or become a freelancer, and some people can just packup their stuff and move to a different country without issues.
OP I'm familiar with your sentiment. This rhetoric is too ideological for most, I'd dial it back and try again. Most are allergic to leftist words and ideas. Union recruiters say to never even use the "U" word, and even saying burgeosie will have libs mocking you.