I'm a trans man. I didn't realize how broken men are
I'm a trans man. I didn't realize how broken men are
Before transitioning, I didn't receive short pat hugs or shake hands; I got deep, long hugs.
Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.
One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We're only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.
I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?
The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I'm not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren't are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.
I mean, it's also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it's nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we're expected to grit our teeth and "walk it off."
I hope I'm not intruding on men's spaces here as a transwoman,
But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender's social dynamics. Men just don't get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what's the point of "equality" if we don't lift everyone up to the same standards?
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn't fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.
Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I'm blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman.
As a women that, granted, had some serious questions about gender in my younger years this has always blown my mind because it’s so multi-faceted.
Women are more emotionally supportive, but it can quickly spiral into an almost gross-feeling and superficial reinforcement. Everything seems to be “valid” or demands an emotion-ridden hullabaloo, whereas the men in my life have always been more direct and straightforward, unafraid to call out my general jack-assery or quip “yeah, that sucks” when there’s not much else to be said about my general state of affairs.
The flip side of this is that women tend to be more sympathetic/vocal to general life events and encouraging to mild up or down days, whereas men tend to cock an eyebrow and ask what you’re so excited/upset about when you show up to work “having feelings” on a random Tuesday because your spouse threw a fit about leftover spaghetti that morning.
The dichotomy is fascinating to me, to watch unfold every day with every interaction. I find myself (not correctly or incorrectly) leaning towards men in times of crisis (muted response), and towards women in times of -life in general- (exacerbated response) because it gives me the mean/median output of (normal human response).
However, this doesn’t mean men only have “regular” mode or “crisis” mode, or that women only live in an amplified wave of “normal” and “slightly less normal”, and I think that’s where we find our faults. Our definition of the masculine and the feminine revolve around a dead sun that no longer serves us well. Men ARE emotionally supportive, and women ARE reserved/stoic, it’s just not always what you expect at the time so it gets glossed over and deleted, to the detriment of everyone.
Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
Spitting straight-up facts.
It's not only a question of men. If you want a romantic relationship, you need to fit the society's standards for the sex you are looking for. If women are looking for toxic virility, the sad truth is that men who embrace it will have an easier time finding a relationship.
This is not something you take from anyone. And this is the biggest problem many men have with the #metoo era: we acknowledge toxic masculinity is toxic and can even be deadly, but what is the alternative? There is none currently.
There is no model for modern men that is worthy of both modern men and women. This is why we have incels and other hardcore conservative going hard on hating women or even more toxic masculinity.
But I digress. The solution is not in a fight, it's in acceptance from both men and women.
Your perspective is absolutely welcome here! I'm transfemme myself
Thank you for sharing. I haven't figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I'm a dad and wasn't going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.
There's a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don't have enough support, so let's give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It's the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he's part of the patriarchy, suppressing women's voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.
First, this is a long comment, and I don't want to come off as dissing it. I agree with you. Except for that concluding thought.
I used to think that that was true, women vs. men for voting rights. But about ten years ago, I wandered into the Berkeley Historical Society. They had a bunch of materials on display about the women's suffrage movement, including just boxes of documents. One of the first ones that I pulled out was a poster for an anti-suffrage meeting. A meeting organized by women.
In fact, they had lots of documentation about anti-suffrage efforts by the society women of Berkeley. That completely shocked me, given Berkeley's crunchy reputation. But I did more research later, and found that it was not at all unusual.
Up until the early years of the 20th century, most women were against it! Even when the 15th Amendment passed, a large minority of women still opposed it. As well, quite a lot of men supported it. (Obviously, they had, to since they were the ones voting to pass it.)
Anyway, the framing of the issue as women demanding the vote from men is oversimplified.
but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men.
Not really. Power has traditionally been held by couples, with men putting on the act and women pulling the strings behind the scenes. Our forefathers even created an entire institution known as marriage to establish these alliances formally. In fact, for a long, time women were more likely to be a part of the anti-suffragism movement than of the suffragism movement.
Even voting rights at the time were attached to land, not people. Before industrialization, it was impractical to own land without an entire family available to tend to it. A single man would never be able to cut the wood, grow the crops, care for the animals, and do all the household chores. There isn't enough time in the day. As such, land ownership too was for couples – thus voting was for couples.
Industrialization was the turning point. It brought increasing opportunities to live a life alone, and those alone started growing more and more disgruntled about a world made for couples.
I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I don't. Such movements happen because of technical advancement. Industrialization, as mentioned, was a pivotal time not only for suffrage but a number of movements. The rise of automation, freeing even more hands from the kitchen, was also a significant period with respect to these topics. These things would have never happened without those new, at the time, technologies changing the way we live.
When the world changes, then people change. There is little evidence that people can change ahead of the world. After all, things happen for a reason. There was logic in giving power to couples at some point in history – until the world changed and it no longer made sense.
Similarly, men are guarded today for a reason. Until some technical advancement lifts that reason from hanging over their heads, it isn't going anywhere. Going to war against an immovable object doesn't yield well.
Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?
That is the worst. So sorry you’re having to deal with that and not get support from the men in your life.
I'm sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that's terrible for everyone.
Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides."
I'm confused why you wouldn't want him to see them. Isn't in your best interest to have people who love you and think you're a good dad in your kids' lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?
Oh I'm fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn't hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.
My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was "cut off." So, despite the fact I'm sad that my mother can't see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn't right.
I will also mention my brother was "cut off" because of his close associations with me.
Not OP, but yes, obviously. It's still different than being in their kids' lives and even if the grandfather is supportive, it's no replacement for direct interaction. I also think there is the question of weather the grandparent will be supportive of OP or protective of the relationship with the grandkids when faced with a difficult decision with regard to who they need to win favor with.
A story all too common. Someone I know mine got divorced a number of years ago. He's a fun, charming, kind, decent looking fellow in good shape for his age, and I can't imagine he did anything to deserve what happened. I don't know all the details of their divorce, but I know all but one of his children was poisoned against him by his (now ex) wife, and it's only because the one happened to be away long term at the time.
His ex has several advanced degrees and is more than capable of earning six figures. And yet, he was still ordered to pay her spousal support and a sizable chunk of his pension. The divorce and family court system is absolutely fucked for men and it's a small wonder so many of them contemplate drastic measures when their lives are ripped away from them.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men and then conveniently "forgot" to balance out all of the exclusive rights women get just for being women.
Maybe it's because I live in a rural area, but no guy I know seems interested/comfortable with any kind of emotionally deep relationship with another guy. Definitely not throwing shade there, I feel the same way and completely unprepared on how to speak with anyone other than my wife emotionally.
The more seemingly well adjusted guys are all family guys with kids, so they basically have no time to do anything that doesn't involve the kids.
The ones without kids and the guys that never married or divorced all got into solitary hobbies like hunting or fishing. I like to trail run, so it's basically the same with me. I feel like it's basically impossible to make friends with another guy and I do try to!
Something I talk to a therapist about but otherwise have little idea what to do with is the fact that I literally have no actual guy friends, just coworkers and a few old college buddies that live hours away, so we only get together about one a year. I feel like the article was pretty good and it is very interesting that a trans man was able to capture the feeling so well.
It's definitely cultural as well. I'm European and never struggled to make guy friends. I moved to New Zealand which is very British, and I really struggle here. My guy friends are other immigrants from Europe or South America. However, 80 percent of my friends are female. I love them but at times I definitely do miss having more dudes to hang out with.
Kiwi blokes are super quiet and steer away from serious conversation. It's really hard here.
The "boys don't cry" stereotype may be very British/American.
It's definitely very cultural
i thought men in rural area have more friends, i thought men in rural area go fishing/hunting/camping with their friends. maybe i thought wrong.
TIL my friendships with my bros are about 5x healthier than average.
I read this thought it sounded super melodramatic and exaggerated. I guess it’s just more rare to have deep friendships with the boys. Looking back it got me thinking that I might be the weird one with friends that have deep conversations and know/worry about the others mental health.
So i guess, to any guys that read this and felt like it could have been written about them: go out on a limb and talk to your friends. Chances are they want/need a more meaningful friendship too. They are also probably similarly apprehensive about opening up.
I try to do that, but somehow it's magnitudes harder to talk to men and I can't figure out why. I'm probably already more open about how I feel than most men (at least in part because of the communities I chose to be part of, therapies, age, ...), but opening up to women (or non-binary persons) feels way more natural and easy for me and I don't even know if that's because other men's reaction to these topics are somehow subtly different (even with men who are also rather open) or because of some inhibitions on my behalf (e.g. not feeling safe around them because of bad experiences or because of an absent father figure or...).
It is melodramatic. He's writing as an outsider who doesn't know yet how to interact as a man, and may or may not have full male hormonal balance yet. Men form deep relationships with their male friends, but only on a long enough timeline for trust to be built, and then we display it differently. His perspective is that of a woman's, so he's probably missing a lot of nuance in reactions he's getting. Something as simple as a knowing nod can mean a lot between men. Just because we're not all lovie dovey, and hugging and kissing, doesn't mean we're broken, it means we're men, with male mannerisms, male emotions, and male forms of bonding.
So i guess, to any guys that read this and felt like it could have been written about them: go out on a limb and talk to your friends
Friends? What are these friends you speak of?
I'm with you. Guys are much easier to talk to about a lot of things.
Though girls are easier in some ways.
Talk to a girl about an insecurity and she will beat you with it. Worried about being small oh just join a gym even if you go all the time. Worried about being short, oh I wouldn't ever dream of dating someone shorter than me but there are girls out there who are shorter than you so try with them. Worried about low pay, oh you will get paid more in the future and then you will have worth. Anything like that girls are awful.
Missing something like a dead relative or ex. Girls tend to be better with that.
If you feel sad or talk to girls if you feel vulnerable or want help solving a problem talk to boys.
I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.
I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.
I'm a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men's issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.
Thank you, Kit.
Here are some questions:- I don't know if women really understand how powerful testosterone is. What was/is your experience with it?
- What other biological differences did you notice? Were they temporary or permanent?
- How do you think men and women can better understand each other?
- What are some things you would change about women? And about men?
- What did you think about strip clubs when you were a woman? Did that opinion change as a man? Why and how?
- What did you think about women before transitioning and how did that change after you transitioned? And also about men.
I don't want to wear out my welcome so I'll stop there. No rush to answer, I'd prefer more complete answers to quick ones.
Would you be able to answer some more questions please? I'm interested to hear more of your opinion and experience!
- Did you find as a man you are taken more seriously by employers and coworkers? Do you find your opinion became more valuable?
- What do you find are disadvantages of being a male?
Thank you!
This really resonates, mainly because it's so true. I think a lot of men these days are feeling lost, sad, lonely, and angry. Some of us think it's because we have forgotten what it means to be a "real" man, and the answer is more bravado, more machismo. But maybe what we actually need is to start learning to communicate with each other on a meaningful level, to redefine manhood in a way that allows us to express emotions in a socially acceptable way, and start forming real, close friendships with other men.
It's an important topic that is often brushed off due to the individuals that tend to bring them up. The problem is though, that the problems these individuals have are in part caused by the lack of emotional support men receive socially.
I'm not defending any of the macho know-it-all "gurus" that I'm talking about, but I'm just pointing out that it's important for women as well as men to care about this issue and try to change it in their daily lives, because aside from being toxic to men, it also creates more problems and worsens the existing ones.
How do you try to change it? Just open up more serious conversations with men, talk about feelings, even if they look at you weird at the beginning.
This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.
That's my experience, too. Most of the times I've opened up to a girlfriend, it's turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn't know is that male friendships aren't as deep.
That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.
never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends
My bros and I are very emotionally open with each other. We've had sit-downs where we listen to each other and help each other through problems, hug each other when we cry.
Sure, I'm not going to do that with someone I just met 5 minutes ago, but once we know each other a bit we are very supportive and open.
Kind of have to take the first step. If you trust one of your mates, give em a hug, text em out of the blue and thank em for being a mate etc.
The theoretical steps are rather clear, it's just a different "vibe" I have with men and women (therefore I guess most of my friends are women) - sure in the end I just need start doing it, but as with all emotional things it's easier said then done.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn't know is that male friendships aren't as deep.
He's a fool if he thinks he's going to form deep connections with other men in a short time period, especially as an outsider. Men make 4 friends in junior highschool and decide that's enough for the rest of our lives. Men are also very tribal. He's going to have to wait for years, or even decades to find the deep and meaningful relationships he's looking for. That's just how men operate.
It's very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.
My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it's not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It's not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.
it's not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
It's spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it's either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who've actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn't separated us.
When I open up to women, it's either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.
I just don't anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.
I'm mtf, being a woman made my life much much easier
I knew women were the superior gender all along
The comments at the bottom of the article though... I really hate people sometimes.
Oof they are awful, and indicative of the issues raised in the article. So many of the men commenting are defending the "man" stereotype as "natural", and ignoring that men have issues existing in society probably because of the pressures of that stereotype. Nobody wants men to feel isolated and lonely and kill themselves 4x as much. I don't think that's a "natural" part of being a man. At least it doesn't have to be.
As a minor example supporting a lot of what's in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, "I don't know, I didn't ask". She seemed shocked and can't understand why I say we don't have those kinds of conversations.
I still get sad at the surprise women have when I move before they do
Is this actually a thing? I've always moved away from everyone's path and never noticed anyone feeling surprised by that. And from every man I've ever walked with, I can only remember one who I noticed didn't make room for other people.
Oh, it's totally a thing. I'm a woman and short, so I'm below the eye line of most men, and I've had men plow right over me on crowded sidewalks or at events. Most men expect the woman to yield in that situation and they'll get annoyed if you don't. It actually is surprising when a man moves out of the way, though I don't know if it shows on my face.
I believe that's why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.
That's accurate, but doesn't convey they entire picture accurately.
Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women's incomplete attempts were deemed to be a "cry for help" rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.
rant incoming:
oh come on 4:1 consistently on an almost global scale is way too far to say that all of these women's attempts are sincere, 4:1 is batshit. it's the same as when someone says 'ive attempted ten times', cause no they didnt, if they did genuinely theyd certainly be dead. theyre not 'cries for help', theyre more like them getting internal validation for their feelings. garbaj on youtube made a great video about the romantising of alcholism but it applies here too. i know what i said is a tough pill to swallow but thats the cold truth. im not saying women en masse arent depressed or that theyre doing it for attention, i am saying far less of them are sincerely suicidal and want internal validation of their depression. same shit with sh, it becomes a contest of who can hurt themselves the most as you dont feel your pain is legitmate. people also do this wjth the whole 'i only got 4 hours sleep' 'i only got 2 shut up' 'my life is harder, you had it easy' 'i drink 4 beers a day' 'yeah wrll i drink a bottle of vodka'. people may or may not say this stuff out loud but people definitely fucking feel it deep down and start hurting themselves to feel like their emotions are justified. people need to get that someone having it 'worse' or 'better' means jackshit to your feelings, the whole 'be grateful' for what you have cause 'a kid in africa...' narrative is such a fucking dogshit way of thinking and leads to this shit by undermining and delegitmising feelings. if youre unhappy, you dont need to prove it. just cause someone needs alcohol to cope doesnt mean their circumstances are worse / feelings are more valid (those two things do not directly impact one another, dont think i mean that). even if their feelings were 'more valid' somehow, why the fuck does that matter to yours. this isnt some sucide competition, your depression is independent of theirs, they have no relationship.
dude. I'm not disagreeing but paragraphs are a thing
Really great article
As a married cis man moving towards his 40s, I can only confirm from my perspective that the male-to-male friendship experience seems broken.
First of all, in college I learned about the performative nature of gender and that gave me the tools I needed to push back against social pressure. I wear what's comfortable, I try to be considate towards others, I talk about emotions, and I do what sounds fun without a care about whether it makes me "feminine" or "gay". I feel that pushing against gender performance expectations has made me a better and fulfilled person.
But male-male friendships are still really hard, and I don't get it. I've lost all of mine, for various reasons. Some of us got busy with careers, families, or whatever other reason. I've reached out now, multiple times, over the last few years, to old male friends and coworkers that I worked with for 5+ years.
The conversation starts with a list of accomplishments. I congratulate them, so glad they're doing well. We're both pretty happy in careers too.
I ask how they're doing, what do they do for fun, you still with that same girl? Fine. Same old. Uh huh.
I suggest that maybe we should do something sometime. Play disc golf. Play some games. Hang out. Meet somewhere. Bring your kids if you want, I'd love to meet them.....and at this point they get distant and eventually ghost me.
After a few instances of this, I started to wonder if there's something wrong with me. Maybe they didn't like me. Maybe I said something wrong. But there was one other instance. A woman I worked with for like 9 months. I called her once to ask for a job reference. And we ended up talking for an hour about our lives, our SOs, life goals etc. Before I could ask, she ended up suggesting that hang out and bring our SOs.
The only male friends I have right now are the male SOs of female friends or my wife's girl friends.
Some of the most fulfilling friend groups we've had since were groups with LGBT and NB folks. And I think that's because, even though gender performance is absolutely an important thing in these groups, there's less pressure for us, a cis couple, to "perform" in a certain way. Our conversations are more real and liberated. It's less anxious and competitive. But at the same time, those friendships eventually end because I don't they can really connect with us - like, we're still outsiders and so there's a bit of a block. I understand, but it sucks.
Because we try to connect with cis men, or even couples, in our area, we either get standoffishness or competitions. Like, we're getting evaluated for our performance of gender / society / life expectations. My wife and I have careers, no kids, and we're fine, but we're also trying to explore who we are outside that. And new cis friendships at our age seems to be less about connecting and doing fun things and more about bragging about accomplishments or complaining about the lack of them over coffee.
And its so hard to find any cis men that are just fucking chill and maybe tired of all the anxiety and social pressure around masculinity and just willing to be a person rather than a "man".
I wonder if this is one of the reasons why MTF vastly outnumber FTM transitions
Actually they don't. Source
There's a fascinating history for why there may have been significant differences in reported numbers but they seem to have far more to do with the state of the medical establishment and their willingness to marginalize certain people than anything else.
[citation needed]
Lol right!? It's like "Welcome to the loser team" haha
Am I only the only one who thinks comes off like "men arent like women, and therefore broken"?
Not having to spend an hour discussing my feelings is actually one of the things I like about my friendships. I don't want long deep hugs, they make me uncomfortable. And I definitely don't want someone opening up to me about their life struggles. That's not the kind of friendship I like or want.
I guess that makes me broken!
And it's all perfectly fine to not want that.
The issue is there is a heavy expectation for all men to be like that. Many of us, me included, are not at all, and are often ridiculed for it.
I mean it does because those things only make you uncomfortable because you've been conditioned your entire life to feel that way just because you're a man.
Those things are basic human companionship.
100% mate.
All my best friendships have been 99% ripping into each other and telling funny stories. Like I don't tell shitty stories about work because I lived it once and I don't want to live it again. No one else does either. Unless it's to vent about someone because I'm angry. But I do tell funny stories about work.
Having said that even in the most masculine environments when anyone has had an issue or been pushed too fair the guys always rally and pick them back up.
Day to day shit is your own problem. The once in a month or few months is our problem and I'm here for you.
You boss was mean to you. You want to bounce other careers around or see if I can find someone to hire you? No, well grow up everyone's boss is shit. Either leave or deal with it.
Your misses just cheated on you. Right come on I'll get the guys and we'll go to the pub, she's a cunt you're better off without her.
Also hand shakes are fucking great. I usually go for a shake and a quick hug. But the handshake is better.
American men.
This is a great point. I'm super curious but generally unfamiliar with how things are in other parts of the world.
This is something I realized not so long ago, obviously through a very different path and story, because I'm only a man.
As is written, the hardest part is when women themselves will be disappointed or outright critical when you're not acting like stereotypical men. And when you don't have the social or communication skills that you didn't learn because it wasn't manly, and thus useless, then it's very hard to break out of deep lonelyness.
This is the kind of article I needed to read, thanks for posting.
That's a really interesting perspective.
Ah fuck. I feel that.
Enjoy!
This sort of reminds me of when a couple moves into a house right next to a local dive bar then begins to start a complaint campaign against said bar for being a bar near them.
Men aren't "broken" just because we interact differently than women. It may be news to that trans man, but we don't have the same emotional needs as women. We interact in ways that work for us. It is fashionable today to refer to all masculinity as toxic, but we are not the same as women, hard stop. Stop trying to pretend that we are.
I think it's worth examining how much of this is internalized toxic masculinity versus an innate feature of men.
well, women also get more attention therefor they are less lonely. Just look at dating apps: women get flooded with likes and messages, but men... good luck getting a like and if you get one, good luck getting a conversation where you are not the only one putting some effort.
Homie, this is quite a bad take particularly in the face of the article in question. One of the biggest things the author was talking about wasn't quantity of relationships, but quality of relationships. Having first conversations with 50 odd men is not going to produce a quality relationship in which you can talk about significant worries in life, or work through feelings that are causing distress.
but they dont get messages from only 50 year old men, do they? they get messages from a full spectrum of men. The only thing left to do is to choose. When you get to choose and if you know what to look for, you end up finding quality. When you dont get to choose, you either settle down or end up alone. Its offer and demand.
Men are also different from women. Not just physically but mentally. Part of the problem the writer had was not understanding how male friendships work and expecting a mirror of female friendships. Certainly it can be lonelier as a man but in some ways it's just the way we are.
I think the important thing here is that there's absolutely no reason it HAS to be this way. These aren't intrinsic properties of male and female friendships. They are driven primarily by cultural factors and have changed significantly even over recent history.
in some ways it's just the way we are.
Is it? What makes you think that our loneliness is inherent to us? How is it inherent to us?
The problem is not about you. It's about your ability to accept another man who wants a "female" friendship. And apparently you don't want any of that, which makes you part of the problem.
I'm talking about a woman who wanted to physically be a man but is still mentally programmed as a woman could not understand male friendships. It's not that men don't have friends or deep friendships. It's just that they're usually different from the opposite gender.