The Agora @sh.itjust.works chalkman @sh.itjust.works 1y ago

[Vote] guess I gotta make a post for this over here. Do we defederate with exploding-heads.com

My primary argument is that they post hateful content and covid conspiracies and it is irresponsible to platform this by including it in our federation. Secondly we already got rid of lemmygrad. Thirdly, there's little to be lost in the defederation given the type of stuff being posted over there. Do as thou wilt

Aye and nays pls

Edit: putting the screencaps I posted below here for clarity

I should probably put a content warning so

CW: homophobia, transphobia, and just being a shithead.

Edit 2: let's try not to downvote people just saying nay. Unless they are making bad faith arguments we should respect their opinions even if we disagree.

Edit 3: Imma be real with y'all, this has been a real shitshow. We gotta work out some kinda single voting infrastructure because the ayes and Nays isn't efficient at all.

168

168 comments

Nay. Just block the instance for your own account if you feel offended. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the examples you've shown us. However, this does not warrant censorship for one. And on the other side, if no one is able to convince them due to deplatforming, things won't ever get better. Thus: Nay.
- Things will get better if they can't share their message all over the place though.
  
  A good example of that is Maxime Bernier (leader of the PPC,a political party in Canada) who has seen his support disappear after media stopped having the "obligation" to cover him because of election rules. His message lost its reach and now he's doing live feeds in front of a couple hundreds instead of thousands.
  
  Why wait until it becomes an issue instead of taking preventive measures if we've seen it becomes an issue on many platforms?
  
  Oh, you're making this same argument here as well.
  
  This should be easy, I'll just copy-paste my replies since you are also copy-pasting your replies (which is a little weird and sus).
  
  Bernier and the PPC is an entire political party running for an election, not an internet community on a niche website that barely gets 20 different users.
- Can whole instances be blocked on Lemmy? I thought only users/communities were possible atm.
  
  They cannot
I guess I'll be one of the first.

Nay, for now.

Defederation should be the last option. After we have exhausted all other options. Because it's the exchange of ideas, and exposure to other viewpoints, that helps reduce bigotry and hatred.

I'm well aware that a fascist is gonna fascist, no matter what someone tells them. There is no reasoning with them or trying to have a discourse with them because they only want to frustrate you. Those users should be blocked, or better, banned from our instance if possible. But there will be other users of that instance who are regular folk who simply like the idea of free speech. They should not be cut off and left to be turned by the fascists.
- I ultimately disagree but I appreciate that you are making an argument from a place of good faith. It's extremely refreshing, Thanks.
  
  I don't have a lot of hope that the instance will change, but disconnecting them from everyone else lets them control the narrative of "us vs them."
  
  We should be acting as a counter to their made up facts. And calling out the fallacies, as frustrating and tiring as it'll be. Not on their instance, obviously, but anywhere they try to spread their hate. Fascism has festered in our society for decades, and now we need to shine a light on it for everyone to see it for what it is. Not hide it away.
Aye.

After reviewing the instance myself, their federation creates risks for this server falling afoul of the Criminal Code of Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Act.

I understand defederation is a nuclear option, and wait anxiously for improved tools for users to block posts from entire instances if so desired, but I see no benefit in our being federated with this specific instance.
Aye. Don't platform dog whistling.

Edit: Actually I had an experience as a result of exploding-heads because I was looking for an Oregon community and came across their oregon one (archive link), which included demonizing homeless and trans people. I ended up blocking it. This isn't just a bandwagon. I don't want others on this instance to be lured into those hateful rabbit holes. I ended up joining the PNW community on lemmy.world
Aye, nothing lost from defederating them
Aye.

I had given my reasons previously, but I prefer not to platform bigotry.

If there was a way to reason against this kind of thing, reason could be used.

It can't.
Aye
Nay. I don't like what they're doing over there, but I don't think defederating is the right thing to do.

Other people have already said what I was thinking: "Defederation should be the last option", "You have a block list, curate your own filter bubble", "we ourselves have felt what it is like", etc.
No, if the users are spamming this server then block them. I don’t like the idea of blocking jerks just cause they’re jerks on their own server
- They're not just jerks on their own server and the goal is to prevent the jerkification of our instance over time.
Nay

I think Contextual Idiot said it best - 'Defederation should be the last option. After we have exhausted all other options. Because it’s the exchange of ideas, and exposure to other viewpoints, that helps reduce bigotry and hatred.'
- That only works if the other party is open to the exchange of ideas and doesn't just double down instead.
  
  Do we really need to wait until it becomes a major issue or can we just learn from all other platforms that lost control and take measures before that happens?
  
  Ironic hearing that from you.
  
  I know from experience that you personally are not at all open to exchanging ideas.
I'm going to agree with contextual idiot

Nay

Mainly because we ourselves have felt what it is like to be defederation because of others on our instance. There could very well be normal upstairs people hosted on that instance that never interacts with their instances community itself.

If we defederate we risk them getting stuck in an eco chamber and potentially become exactly like the rest of them. And then that also brings up the same issue. The ones that are already bigots, if put into an echo chamber are going to think they are correct and are going to become bigger bigots. We won't ever see it but the people in their day to day life will.
- And you think letting them take part in discussions here won't make users outside their instance convert? The more they can spread their message the more people join their cause and more join then leave. Sure some are already over there and don't believe their bs, there's a lot less of them than potential converts on Lemmy at large.
  
  But are they coming to this instance in any significant capacity? If they keep their discussions/trolling off of this instance then I don't see any benefit. Individuals can already block the instance on their own accounts.
  
  Don't be afraid of their "arguments".
No.

You are not 'deplatforming' them by de-federating. They still have a platform, they still have communities and they still can post there. You can't deplatform people in a federated social media, they own their own instance. What you're asking is for the site admins to add every EH user and community to the block list of everyone on this instance. I'm an adult, I don't need a Big Brother deciding what I can and cannot see.

Save de-federation for last resort issues that cannot possibly be resolved in any other way. If an instance is spamming, if an instance is being used for planning violence, if an instance is allowing the sharing of abusive images or illegal material, if an instance is coordinating harassment (doxing, SWATing, etc) then de-federate them.

De-federation should not be used to create filter bubbles. You have a block list, curate your own filter bubble. Don't try to enforce your block list on everyone else.

It's also worth noting that, outside of the the 4th and 5th images, none of the posts in those images would even be considered breaking a rule if posted on this instance. You're, for the most part, just posting right-wing posts which makes this appear like you're trying to push a political position.
- They're not right wing posts they're alt-right posts, there's a difference there and it's a major one and the best way to keep that movement from spreading is to not let people be in contact with it.
  
  Please don't try to protect people from opinions. Eventually they find out and feel lied to.
Aye
Aye
Nay.

Having shitty opinions is not an adequate basis to defederate them. I believe defederation should be a last resort.

There is a very clear way to justify defederation. Namely, if another instance is preventing our instance from flourishing. But unless the server is actively causing harm to our users and communities, why is it necessary? Simply block them if you want.

When people ask me why we defederated them, I would like to have a good answer.
- I would have figured the hate speech would be a good answer to why we defed them.
  
  Not good enough for me unless they are specifically directing it at us. Defederating them doesn't make them stop existing. It simply plays into their narrative that we are too sensitive and we can't handle the truth.
  
  It's not about them, it's about our community and what kind of example we want to set. I would prefer to engage with any instance until they transgress against us specifically and significantly. I think that is the best way for a federation to operate.
Aye, after seeing the pictures this instance could very easily get into trouble for hosting that kind of content. Keep in mind that the site is not hosted in the US, but Canada.
Aye
Aye. Looks like this instance is not very nice.
Nay.

All that stuff is basically 0 comment and 0 up vote. It doesn't look like you would end up stumbling in that stuff as trending or whatnot. Unless your subscribed to it or looking to be offended it looks like a non issue. I've yet to see anything from them other then in these complaint threads.

I'm sure there is offensive content everywhere if you really look for it. Even here hence the whole beehaw thing.

I don't think we should defederate to control what other folks expose themselves to. If they were brigading other instances or butting in to be a direct nuisance that would be a different story.
Aye
Aye
Aye.

Cut off the diseased branch to save the rest of the tree.
Aye

The sooner the better because it's inevitable with our instance's rules
Aye.

At best it's clickbait trash. At worst it's the garbage OP highlighted.
EDITED

I've changed my mind. I vote:

Aye.

I initially voted the other way, as I don't agree with the content there, but I didn't think that defederating should be our first action. I still believe that, but this instance has now proved to me that it is extremely toxic. See this post: https://lemmy.world/post/747912

And additionally, many folks will use the fact that we do not defederate from such a community as justification to defederate from us.
Aye
Aye, and here's why. Exploding heads are not coming into our space and having discussions in good faith. They are acting as a troll farm and being abusive toward our members, and generally not following the rules of the road laid out for our instance. "Beehaw defederated us and I didn't like it" isn't a valid argument as this is a different situation. Beehaw defederated from here because they couldn't deal with the scale of moderating all the traffic coming from here which including abusive troll accounts. Exploding Heads is going by the alt right playbook and is almost exclusively being abusive, even if it's a small number of people.

And it is noticable. I see some people arguing that individuals who don't like that instance should just block it themselves, but that's not an available function of the threadiverse yet. You're saying that our server at large should endure abuse coming from that server because someday the functionality may be implemented for individuals to handle it themselves. I don't think this is a good moderation strategy and will only allow abusive actors to find foothold.
Aye
Nya. Just block them as I'm blocking stuff that I don't want to see. This function is there for something. Defederating is as extrem as the posts they are making
Nay. Not as long as they aren't causing trouble here. By the way, your screenshots show, among others, a user from this very instance pushing back against their narrative, which is exactly what I would ecourage to do. If they start banning people for simply being critical, then we can have the discussion about defederating again.
No. I've never seen an Exploding-Heads user on any other instance except for one guy who made an account purely to dissent on their instance.
Aye
Aye.
Aye.

Despite their claims, the evidence clearly shows they are a fascist instance. And fascists must NEVER be tolerated unless you want to become The Nazi Bar yourself. With enough "nay" votes, this could already be true.

Failure to uphold the most basic community safety will force me to move instances, and I'm sure many others will do the same, so then you will quickly see my point.
aye
Aye
Aye.
Aye
Aye.
Aye
I think I'm a nay - I'm torn. Basically I don't want to play the only ace card we have... Seems like an escalation, but I'm also qualified n00b and struggling to see how they're leaking across - other than with inflammatory replies
Nay. You're gonna encounter these people IRL. It's better to prepare yourself in a low stake environment like an internet forum.
- Oh I've already encountered their sort irl and they aren't half as bold. But I understand where you are coming from.
Nay
Nay. Bc even though it is bad, it doesn't seem necessary. As long as their users don't break the rules over here anyway
nay, down vote and move on. if it really bothers you, unsubscribe/block. defederate only if they start brigading and normal mod controls stop working, if it's just a few bad actors should be easy enough to ban them
OP, as this seems to be almost exclusively discussion, and there's currently a discussion about how we should split things between discussion & votes, maybe you could retitle this as a Discussion and hold a proper vote after a day or two of convincing people here? If you want to ofc, those formats haven't been voted on yet.

I do agree with your cause, but with how much of a touchy subject defederation is, it's an excellent test-bed for doing things in as transparent and as rigorous a method as possible.
Nay
Nay. Let's keep censorship to a minimum. No bubbles.
Aye. Cut out the infection before it spreads
Aye

Going forward, will be necessary to articulate standards and processes for defederation, to avoid having to relitigate the concepts of free speech, hate speech, etc. every time.
- Created a separate [Discussion] post for general defederation standards.
  
  It will be important to articulate what standards are intended to be applied to instances generally; it's not just about the particularly awful vibes of this particular one. There will be dozens or hundreds more like it, not to mention the spammers and whatnot.
Aye
Nay.
Withdrawn.

There's some content I find deplorable here but I'm no longer convinced that defederation is a healthy tactic to wield like a cudgel in this way. I'm comfortable deciding for myself what content I will and will not see. I think others should be extended the same freedom.
Our federation? Is that like our Internet?
aye
I'm a newer user so I'd appreciate more information before I vote. Why would defederation be more applicable than down voting en mass? From the examples it seems that there are very few up votes on the posts.
- By including them in our federation we are essentially acting as a platform for them to get their hateful content out and recruit people. Ie, they will have their content viewable by users on this instance. Defederating would remove their content from being visible on this instance, both preventing people from accidentally running across their shit and prevent them from interacting with this instance and vice versa. Given their admins and mods are some of the people posting bigotry, I think it unlikely that instance will ever clean up.
As far as I know the whole concept of agora was just announced yesterday, and now we are saying that entire instances can be defederated based on a vote ( with no rules defined for when the vote ends or how votes are tallied ).

This is ridiculous and dangerous. This is poorly thought out. Above all, this is a terrible precedent. That any motivated group of users can go to an instance, clip some pics of bad behavior, create a thread and then spam it with 'aye' votes and close the vote whenever they please, and that result in the cutting off of an entire instance? Not even a freaking poll?

Please consider withdrawing this until the rules of agora voting are clearer.
- some pics of bad behavior
  
  Bruv I provided more than some pics.
  
  I see 10 pics, which feature heavily the same 4-5 people.
  
  Now let me ask you, do you think I can't find similar evidence on most of these instances if I go looking? Especially if I find 2 or 3 toxic users to follow around for 5 or more days?
Nay! This is arbitrary censorship of an entire instance because they host content that disagrees with you. The support for such a measure here is more disturbing than the content itself.
- I disagreed with some of those screenshots, and that's ok. But others where just plain hatespeech, that's where I draw the line.
- arbitrary
  
  Have you not seen any of the numerous screencaps I've posted? Heaven forbid we decide not to associate with hate speech.
Nay

I think we should also unblock Lemmygrad. If you want to access hateful content, you do you, but I think we should only block instances if their users cause problems here. I am not impacted by you accessing a stupid instance.
Nay.

Personally I would feel that people that are present on those instances will find a home there and not enjoy being here or in other more reasonable instances. If they become more of a problem then consider it then.
Nay (for now)

My mind could be changed very easily on this in the future, especially if they get bigger. But in my opinion defederation should be treated as the "nuclear option" for an instance of our size, and a handful of bigots aren't enough for me to want to push the Big Red Button unless they start trouble for us.
Aye
Nay

Block them yourself. Defederation is against the principles of the fediverde. If you are looking for an instance that is more isolated, look into Beehaw.org.
Aye
Nay.
Aye
Aye for both the primary content and for the obvious dog whistling going on to defend it.
Given the examples, aye
Aye
Nay until some evidence is posted
- https://sh.itjust.works/comment/290981
  
  With this I'll change my vote to aye
Aye
Aye
Aye
Aye
Aye
Aye.
Nay

I am going to say Nay because I haven't seen any of this content organically surfaced to me, and I browse all > new all the time. In fact Im on lemmy a lot right now. That says to me that the fediverse community is doing a good job of downvoting this content.

My fear is that this style of argument will be used to censor any community that has enough motivated haters, thus anything controversial. Going over to a community and finding bad examples of behavior is going to be possible on nearly every federated instance. I bet I could do it with this instance, in fact.

I am open to changing my view if people can point me to a style of browsing lemmy that is organically surfacing this content a lot. I understand that over time we may identify certain instances that are really just troll farms. I just feel its too soon to be doing this and that the response is a sledgehammer against a fly.
Nay

if this becomes a problem we can still deal with it. But at this moment, i never came across gross content from their instance (apart from this discussion), nor did i encounter users from this instance being annoying.

##############

This may be inaccurate as I am not yet familiar with how the Federation works:

They build a village where they can behave however they want, so as long as they don't do it in our village, or do it to an annoying extent in neighbouring villages that we both visit, I don't see any need for action.

Just don't visit them.

###############

Lastly, we should really work out the details of the voting mechanism before voting on such topics
~~Overall~~ Aye, but I'd like to see some incriminating evidence of what we'd be blocking as an explanation and a warning before we do it. Pics, text posts can be banned and deleted.

Edit: Aye
Aye

As another user said, hate speech is not free speech. And associating with an instance such as that one could even have legal implications for @TheDude in the future.

Edit: Typo
Could we have some links to examples so everyone can get an informed view of the kind of content you're talking about? I don't browse that instance normally.
- OK sure, have some examples
  
  Oof that's an aye from me then. Thank you for the pics!
  
  One of these isn't from Exploding-Heads, you might want to remove that one example.
  
  There is dissent and disagreement in the only example that actually has comments.
  
  Not very convincing if your best examples are of one or two users who are posting dumb boomer headlines with zero upvotes and zero comments.
- https://exploding-heads.com/comment/95292
  
  https://lemmy.world/post/279473
  
  The links are from other instances but are replies on our instance, the second one if from a lemmy.world user that is then shown to be a exploding-heads user.
Nay
Nay. I believe in Free Speech and do not think we should ban any group unless they are doing illegal acts.
If you hate free speech, hate your own first and foremost and shut up.
- Hate speech is not free speech.
  
  Supreme Court disagrees with your claim. Hate speech is in fact free speech.
  
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/06/19/supreme-court-unanimously-reaffirms-there-is-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/
  
  Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.”
Nay

This isnt hateful content its just content you hate
Nay

168 comments