Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable about people making such a deal out of whether they're "black" or "white"?
Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable about people making such a deal out of whether they're "black" or "white"?
Hey there, I was wondering if I'm the only one who feels like this or not.
So I grew up thinking that we people all look different and never had a concept of something such as "white" and "black" people.
But especially in the last years I noticed more and more that a lot of people make such a big thing out of whether someone is "black" or "white" and what their ethnicity is.
It feels like it's to the point where they make this define their core identity as if it's very relevant how people look and how bright/dark their skin is as if this changes their personality.
It's like so many of these people constantly bring this up to the point where it's brainwashing and they literally even use racial slur as slang that was used in the past to devalue and enslave people based on their skin tone.
Since I experienced this it made me very uncomfortable since I never had this concept before and now I constantly have to obsessively think about it and feel like it's manipulating me and these people still bring it up all the time.
I think this is driving me insane cause I never would think about humans so strongly because of their skin or something since it simply isn't relevant and it just feels wrong but I can't escape it since so many people continue to make such a big deal out of it.
Edit: To the people saying people have different advantages because of their skin, I'm fully aware of that and I wasn't intending to debate that. My question was primarily about if other people have the same uncomfortable feeling that many people differentiate between people based on their skin and make such a big deal out of it (so more a personal feelings question than a generale debate about why it exists) because imo in a healthy society this shouldn't be the case. But in my opinion the fact that we continue this behaviour instead of changing it is the exact reason we have racism and the issues of inequality based on someone's skin in the first place. We need to start to change at some place and not just give up on it. If we continue to see people as "black" or "white" instead of just seeing them as "people" and only look at the past we will never end this issue. Ignorance is certainly not the solution. I found these videos where I think Elon Musk and Morgan Freeman are pretty much hitting the nail on the head.
The first half of your comment is an acknowledgement that you don't understand American culture and the second half is you casting declarative judgement upon it.
I don't know which one of your minds to respond to.
Both.
He's an outside observer, and spot on.
Why would you judge it as something good to separate people based on how their skin looks like?
I wouldn't say it's "good" but it is what is. Humans connect with each other through shared experiences. Growing up black in America creates a unique cross section of obligate life events. Regardless of your culture or environment, there are things that connect you to other black Americans. Some black people prefer to engage with that identity, others prefer to ignore or actively avoid it. But either way, it's a choice that defines a significant part of their personality.
The reality is because of the lived experiences of people based on the color of their skin, people are different based on skin color. You're right that it's a stupid reason to think differently of people, but if people had been mistreated for many generations based on the color of their hair, and there was still a good chunk of people that something so arbitrary was somehow important, then you would want to approach a person with that hair color with understanding of that history and current struggle.
So why does it matter? Because 100 years ago, their great-great-grandparents had any wealth they managed to build up taken from them, 70 years ago their great-grandparents were kept boxed into separate, substandard areas, and 50 years ago their grandparents were kept from being able to buy homes outside low-income, substandard housing areas, and 30 years ago their parents were told it was their fault for growing up in crime-filled, poor areas with under-funded schools. And the whole time police have continuously treated them as that same substandard, poor, likely-criminal, so they have disproportionately been put in jail or grown up with one parent in jail. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone, but it's enough to lead people to treat them differently, either because they presume (until otherwise established) that they are poor, poorly educated, and likely criminal (by basically racist assholes) or with a certain amount of respect for their presumed struggles.
Taking it to an extreme, if a person comes across a very old person with a number tattooed in block letters on their forearm, they will respond one of two ways: with respect and concern for their presumed struggles and trauma, or with irrational hatred (by neo-nazis). Judging or "separating" a person for a barely noticeable tattoo that they didn't even put on themselves may seem arbitrary, but only if you ignore the entire history that makes them different.
Good? I don't know that you have to judge it as good, but it's easy to understand WHY and also that is serves a purpose in the US it may not serve other places.
People naturally separate into like groups as a matter of being fundamentally tribal, even though these are barriers we generally try to break down. The point though is that in the US there is often a cultural difference when splitting between white or black, just like there's a cultural difference for "grows payot sideburns", "dresses flamboyantly or effeminately as a man", "speaks Spanish at home", etc, etc. Sure, people are just people and we don't need to point out differences maliciously, but we ARE different and those are often things we like to celebrate. At the root, we want our differences to be a positive not a negative, but by and large we aren't changing our cultures anymore to blend into one big homogeneous, colorless group.
In most of Europe, black and white (or brown or purple or whatever) isn't a meaningful cultural distinction. In the US it is. Now whether or not we should police language or even whether or not the situation is sometimes uncomfortable... those are different topics altogether.
I really thought you weren’t American, because of the way you see the situation. I’m looking at that dumpster fire from the outside, and can’t help but think about many of the same questions you seem to have. Sounds like you might have grown up in a multicultural environment, where modern hate media and polarization sounds completely alien to you.
You are arriving at the same conclusions as Critical Race Theory in America, just from a clearly outsider’s perspective.
Your uncomfortable feelings quite directly align with the truth that “race” is not a historical or natural human element, but rather an entirely subjective construct built and enforced by white supremacists
infollowing the 1500s and perpetuated through today.However, systemic issues as deeply embedded as white supremacy cannot be addressed without systemic solutions. One such solution is solidarity. People of color, especially in a system as deeply entrenched in racism as America’s, will often need to rely on one another in order to overcome racial barriers. Indigenous, Black, Asian, Latine, mixed, etc. folk do not have the same privilege as White folk do as individuals or as minority groups, and so they strategically find ways to create spaces and communities that prioritize the needs of themselves and their neighbors. It’s kind of like the queer community. If gay people had never been demonized, sure! There would be no need for careful interrogations of identity and sexuality. But the fact is that LGBTQ+ people and POC have both been abused and mistreated for centuries. The process of healing those wounds requires a huge degree of intentional community and commitment to understanding marginalized identities.
I am guessing that perhaps 80% of the “making a big thing” of race you see is this forging of community in solidarity. Now, racism is of course still a thing, so when you do see racial language that is centered around putting down, limiting, or otherwise devaluing lives based on race, feel free to call it the fuck out and feel as uncomfortable as you like. But! If you even see a glimmer of mutual aid, solidarity, and a recognition and redressing of historical denigration of non-white life, take a moment to pause and listen. For centuries race has been exclusively under the thumb of white individuals, so it might be time to let people of color have a moment at the reigns as we move towards healing.
You need to go further back than just 1500.
Western European thoughts on this were heavily influenced by the Ottoman and Byzantine empires.
Which were in turn based on the Roman empire.
Which were in turn based on the Classical Greeks, particularly those of Athens.
To exclusively blame western Europeans for this, when they were nearly wiped out by the Roman empire colonialism, is very short sighted.
I’m not doing blame at all, I am pointing out the general span in time at which our modern conception of “race” came to fruition, which happens to generally fall between the 1500s-1660, at which point “race” became near irreversibly and totally entangled with concepts of supremacy and the slave trade.
Thank you for understanding and please let this continue to be a space of transparency and kind discussion. We absolutely do not need to throw attacks of short sightedness and men of straw in this debate of already highly sensitive topics. I’m more than happy to answer any questions you have about my positions but I will not respond to further misrepresentations.
If you're one color and you're living in a culture where you're surrounded by a majority of people of a different color who don't treat you as one of them, then you're going to identify more with the community of your own color.
There isn't such thing as "one color" with human skin. We all have different shades and tones by nature. People naturally look different. Your skin even changes depending how much you're in the sun and it doesn't make them a different person. It's the same with eye and hair color. Imo that's what makes us humans beautiful that we look different and don't all look the same. This is really not hard to see
Yeah it's not about that. It's about culture, history, systemic racism, discrimination, found family, community...
This "I don't see colour" argument is an old blind argument that ignores all of the above.
Answer: you’re white, right? Few people who experience growing up black in America come away saying “what’s the big deal about race, anyway?”
If you want to know what the big deal is with being black, there’s wonderful tradition in American literature of telling you all about it. Pick up a copy of Black Boy by Richard Wright for a place to start.
Why are people making more of a thing out of it than they were 10 years ago? Well, my personal view is that the whole “just don’t talk about it and it will go away” has not worked. And has that ever worked for anything?
People say that everyone has the same opportunities now. But life outcomes for white and black people are statistically quite different and it’s due to more than just talking about race. So I think people are getting sick of being quiet about something that clearly matters, and are talking about it openly. Others are responding by saying that talking about it is the entire problem and is, itself, racist. This is about the dumbest shit ever IMHO but some people are just really sick of having to hear about it and as a sheltered white person you have little personal reason to care. That is unless you care about other people.
White people who are sick of hearing about it loooove that Morgan Freeman video. They love it. It tells them just what they want to hear. But one extemporaneous comment by a celebrity does not make a thorough analysis of the topic that works for everyone. So yeah, sorry about that.
In other words, being able to choose to disregard the concept of race is itself an expression of privilege.
In a perfect world where everybody had that attitude, it would be the right attitude to have. But as long as some people continue to not only regard it but also use it as a tool to discriminate and oppress, their victims do not have a choice but to regard it also. To tell minorities they shouldn't care about race is to deny them the means to describe how they've been wronged.
Exactly. Very well said. And with all respect to Mr. Freeman, he is rich and famous and enjoys a certain level of privilege in that.
I would be genuinely interested to see what Freeman now thinks of that 16 (or more?) year old clip. While I don’t in any way question his experience or opinion, I think in some way that mindset was very much a (perhaps necessary) product of its time where color-blindness was considered to be the whole picture rather than a smaller bandaid solution of limited efficacy in the context of a holistic healing process.
Obviously he has had an extensive career making films that talk about race, so it’s contradictory on the face of it for him to say “stop talking about it.” Okay, dude! Stop making films that talk about it then!
Yeah. It was an off the cuff remark and right before it he commented on Black History month as limiting black people’s history to just one month a year, which is plainly stupid. Are we offended that Veterans Day bans all appreciation of service folk the other 364 days a year? No.
He is rich and famous and would love to not have the “black actor” label applied to him but again, an extemporaneous comment by a celebrity does not make a thorough analysis that works for everyone.
Ok, I'll bite. Just because you grew up not having to consider the color of your skin doesn't mean other people had that same privilege. I wish I could say that ethnicity doesn't matter, but people here will absolutely treat you differently because of race, whether it makes sense or not. The fact is that "not seeing race" is something you only have the privilege of when you are not in the minority race. Interestingly enough, while I am a very clearly black man, my mixed half sister (32) has faced more direct racism than me, starting from as early as second grade. Her also mixed daughter (15) also gets called the n word at school regularly. You're right that it shouldn't matter but it does to enough people that it can't just be ignored.
Imo that's why we need to stop doing it. Maybe it's too hard to do idk but it makes me feel uncomfortable when people see me or others as a color.
Maybe it’s too hard to do
Yes, that’s exactly it. In a world where a man can wrongfully accuse Haitian migrants, people of color, of eating pets and not only get away with it but be elected president, it is too hard. I understand that it’s uncomfortable but asking people to try to pretend race doesn’t matter is like asking a runner to keep running on a broken leg. When injuries are really bad you have to acknowledge the damage, sometimes for a long while, before it heals away.
There are three distinct concepts I think you’re confusing:
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The idea of biological races. Yeah, any given culture’s definition of “race” is historically contingent and biologically incoherent. I think you get that and are assuming that’s all there is to it.
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Race as a correlative of ethnicity. There are some ethnicities whose members tend to have darker skin colors or other physical traits, and people conflate skin color and ethnicity. Ethnicity (as a set of cultural institutions) is meaningful to many people, and some of them interpret a disregard for “race” as a disregard for their ethnicity, or as an attempt to suppress ethnic identity.
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Race as a social construct. When the above ideas permeate a society, people with different skin colors experience systemically different treatment—even in the absence of actual biological or ethnic distinctions. So people with similar skin colors can be grouped on the basis of those shared experiences, and the different behaviors resulting from those experiences feed back into society’s conceptions of biological race and ethnicity. And it doesn’t suffice to counteract such social constructs by ignoring them—social behavior is taken for granted unless people make a conscious effort to reevaluate it.
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are you white, by chance? i find that there’s a strong correlation between not understanding and caucasity - as a middle-aged white man myself, it was a blind spot for me, at least.
but also there’s a shitload of american culture that’s downright vicious to people who aren’t white, so having a community that shared something (in this case, skin colour vis-a-vis oppressive history/current events) is a powerful draw that i absolutely understand.
edit: the only people i see celebrating “white” are reactionary racists who seem to be able to not be able to tolerate others enjoying their skin colour or culture or whatever they enjoy.
Wow, nice assumption.
Also, define "white".
Are southern Italians "white"? Greeks? Bulgarians (who can range from Irish white to Indian brown)?
How about Roma? Do you even know who Roma are? You probably (insultingly) call them Gypsy. These are people who have been shat upon by virtually every society in existence over the last 10,000 years, and they too can range from Irish to Indian (since they originate from what is now northern India). Are they white?
Entirely depends on who the majority is. Racism is just tribalism.
Yes, those groups are all typically considered white by pigmentation except the ones that are Indian brown, including light skinned romani people. Just like light skinned gay people would be generally considered white, or ethnic Jews who are light complected.
The boundary between black (or brown, yellow, red, purple, or green) and white is not black and white, but the social implications can be pretty cut and dry if you find yourself strongly in one category or another in many parts of the world.
Trying to assign someone as "Asian" is a somewhat more difficult task with more nuance, skin color though is pretty straightforward. You can google peter griffin skin color chart and figure it out.
See that's literally what I mean what upsets me. It doesn't matter what my skin looks like, it changes nothing about me as a person. There isn't even "white" or "black" skin. I've never seen people with actual white or black skin. I would say our skin is more pinkish/brown and changes in brightness/tones if anything. But why would you even make a thing about it? It seems weird and isn't relevant
pedantic, ignoring the historical ramifications or even existence of racism. in a perfect world it wouldn't matter.
No, you're not the only one. It makes me feel uncomfortable as well, especially if it's white people making a huge deal about being white or others not being white. That's creepy AF, as this has been used historically as a really bad reason/excuse to mistreat others.
Yes I agree. But why can't we stop calling people "white people" in the first place? Why can't we just acknowledge each other as people/human beings?
Because we have to acknowledge the systemic privilege of white people. I'm so very white. I have my problems and my concerns, but none of them are for my looks. Black people do not have that luxury.
Whiteness is an exclusionary concept used to create an 'ingroup' and 'outgroup'. Hasan Piker gives a great breakdown of it here.
Historically, it comes from a justification of chattel slavery. Painting 'whiteness' as purity and superior and 'blackness' as inferior and subservient. Leeja Miller gives a great analysis about how this has influenced Eugenics in American history (which inspired the ideology of the Nazis) which is still practiced to this day in certain circumstances.
It's long, but Knowing Better gives an extremely detailed history of neoslavery in American history. To understand why 'whiteness' is still so prevalent in America in modern day, it's important to understand the history of systemic racism and how it persists to this day.
Edit: We can expand on this concept of Identity Politics from just America to the lens of Colonialist Race Relations through the works of Franz Fanon who explored and wrote about this in detail. While Fanon wrote about this in the 1960s, his works are just as if not more relevant today. Adi Callai does a fantastic analysis of Fanon's works about Identity Politics, how to overcome it, and the realities of Race Abolition. If you're interested in how to overcome and move past the identity politics of Whiteness and Blackness, check out Adi Callai's video here.
Post-Occupy American media social discussion has focused on nothing but race/race relations for the past ~15 years. Our 0.01%er overlords know its an immutable difference between people and use it to drive a wedge between us in the name of "progress."
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Are you asking why people bring up being black or make it a part of their identity? Being black in America is a part of their every day lived experience. At no point will society let them forget they are black and just let them be themselves. If not outright discrimination, then they'll experience people making assumptions about them based solely on the color of their skin. Assuming they're poor, uneducated, unintelligent, untrustworthy, or dangerous. So, since they can't escape the label anyways, they embrace it in order to find community and to heal. Like one might do if they were a part of the LGBTQ+ community.
Are you asking why black people have stereotypes about white people? The same reason you have stereotypes about anything. Humans are pattern recognizing machines, often to our own detriment.
Are you asking why black people might treat white people with disdain or fear? It's because the most blatant discrimination towards any out-group will always come from the most insulated in-group. As a result, they can't blindly trust that white people will treat them with dignity or respect.
Are you asking how we end racism or to get more people to think like you (colorblind)? That requires one, ending systemic oppression of black people (if you think this step is done, then you need to do you some learning). Two, educating people on the history of black people in America, both their contributions and their struggles, so that there's a solid understanding and empathy built up. Three, wait several generations so that no one has negative, undeserved biases against black people OR create a culture where people can be called out on their racist actions without fear of retribution or retaliation.
This is really difficult to grasp, especially if you've never experienced direct discrimination and think that is just the actions of individuals that are the issue. As a white man with a black partner, it took me YEARS to really breakdown all the negative assumptions that society instilled in me without me even realizing. Even the "I treat everyone the same, regardless of their skin color" thought is bad, because it means you're unwilling to listen when people tell you they're being harmed because of their skin color. Especially if it's you doing the harm.
You can't start by being mad at the discriminated for telling you they're being discriminated against. You need to listen to them with empathy and compassion, and realize also that they don't really need to teach you about this stuff, you need to be inquisitive and want to learn.
USAmericans have a heavy focus on heritage due to their history (wiping out nearly all of the local population). It is thus a great melting pot of people who left their own behind and had to start again from scratch. Going to another country where everybody's from somewhere else led to them trying to find out how they're unique and looks and heritage are the easiest to focus on. Combine that with a good chunk of their population being descendants of slaves (African, Asian, and European) and you will have a bunch of people focusing on that. Now factor in that blacks are the third biggest ethnic group.
The same didn't happen elsewhere to the same degree as in the US because there are millennia of history and culture in other places or the population is more homogeneous. Go to Poland you're surrounded by Polish people whose forefathers might've come from the very same region, spoken the same language, adhered to the same values and customs, suffered very similar fates, and shared the same traditions. They will try and stand out differently e.g through their accent, dialect, money, and so on instead of skin color and heritage.
It is a complex, multi-faceted issue, but those are my impressions of it. I agree that the focus is annoying, especially when copy-pasted abroad as if history doesn't matter there, but I'm sure the more you read about US history, the more you'll understand.
You should read up on the history of racism in the US. A lot of places it isn't talked about, because we are the land of freedom. /irony
America is literally founded on racism. First white settlers came and gave smallpox to anyone who looked different than them. Then they imported dark skinned people and made them literal slaves. Then half the country waged a war against the other half over the right to keep them as slaves. There was even a period of time when Italians and Irish weren't considered white as a means to discriminate.
There is a lot more context than just skin tone, and unfortunately white supremacy was never curb stomped out
gave smallpox to anyone who looked different than them
It's not like they had a choice in who did/didn't get it.
Nope. Sadly.
“We gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital,” Captain William Trent, a militia captain, wrote in his journal. “I hope it will have the desired effect.”
https://www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/amherst/lord_jeff.html https://allthatsinteresting.com/smallpox-blankets
True, many aspects about humans are really sad
White has an advantage because they always get the first move. To be more fair, any tournament should rotate the players between black and white pieces.
I truly can't tell if this is a perfect textbook nostupidquestion or someone being disingenuously obtuse.
Though not "black" and "white", I know that some black people do not like being considered African American. There is a difference between someone who has family come over through slave trade, and someone who came to America willingly from Africa.
I can understand why they might feel that way, they had family sold into slavery by others in their countries. They've lived on unable to express themselves for generations, and are culturally different from people from their ancestors homelands.
So being black and calling them African American may not acknowledge what they see as clear differences between the two.
This reminds me of this interview of Elon Musk and Don Lemmon where I think Elon is hitting the nail on the head. And the irony being Elon is more African American than Don Lemon since Elon actually is African and Don just is American.
I agree 100%. The answer is that people are dumb and like tribalism so they keep it going. Anyone that thinks perpetuating division will result in progress is an idiot, and frankly identity politics are a distraction from real issues like poverty
Great that someone can relate and I'm not the only one thinking this!
Poverty is a real issue in America that is also often influenced by race. Race is a real issue in itself that has many different facets.
Racism is a real issue, race is made up and needs to go away. If we divide people arbitrarily using a skin color chart, we're encouraging people's minds to see differences where there aren't and feeding the beast that is racism. We need to recognize the effects of racist behavior, but not play their game
You're right. Identity politics is itself what fractures the civil polity, working against creating real opportunities for ending marginalization, and perpetuating that marginalization through affirmations of difference.
I don't have a good answer to your question, but to me "white" as an ethnicity makes about as much sense as "Christian" does as a religious description - they both cover such a wide range of backgrounds and beliefs to be essentially useless. Do a Catholic, a baptist and a modern evangelical actually believe the same things beyond how they frame those beliefs?
To my mind, same goes for ethnicity - "white" can mean anything from the baltics to western Europe to north America, and to my mind, is kinda racist. It lumps people from as diverse places as Ireland and Russia together purely based on appearances. I get "black" as a self-selected descriptor of people who do have a big cultural touch-point in common - our ancestors were enslaved, brought here against our will, and we still feel the impacts of that even if our ancestors themselves were from a wide background.
I guess "white" is an easy antonym to "black", but then that still comes back to a racist tint - "we are white because we aren't Them" - and lumps in people who have nothing to do with the lasting impact of slavery in the US into this "oppressor vs oppressed" false dichotomy.