What he could’ve made if there were no taxes? I doubt he’d be making as much if there were no government.
Should be more mad of what isn't being done with all the taxes being taken out.
He'd be really upset if he knew what is being done with his taxes.
Argentina gutted its tax system and now certain people are making a lot more money. Its just that the state currency is increasingly worthless, as the biggest consumer of notes no longer wants them.
Those certain people probably wouldn’t include this guy. Nothing against him, he’d just be playing an odds game and the odds would not be in his favor.
As a libertarian I try to make it clear that free markets can’t exist in the modern world without government activity.
In the prehistoric world, a person with something to sell or trade could mostly do so without interference, because everyone had similar physical power, making robbery more dangerous than it was worth.
But once power structures started accumulating: armies, governments, powerful families, etc, the only way to maintain free trade is via government actively maintaining that secure market space.
So the natural deterrent of coercive economic interaction (get injured when target defends their stuff), got replaced with the artificial deterrent of law enforcement (go to jail when target reports your theft).
Free markets need to be level and fair, and it takes government firepower to counter all the other firepower and level the negotiations out. When people can negotiate without fear of violence reprisal, they can freely enter or not enter whatever set of economic arrangements are best for them.
Free markets mean people can enter the market and do whatever kind of business they please so long as someone else is willing to take that deal. You can’t do that without a large effort to keep the space clear of criminal coercion.
That’s an extremely simplistic view of commerce and human history. Robbery was very common before government. Robbery is still very common, but less so.
Fraud and dangerous products run rampant without government intervention. Basically, without a government to protect you, the likelihood that a mega corp will sell you something that will kill you is super high. Just look at how much regulation has improved auto safety in the last 70 years. And appliance safety, medical safety, travel safety, food safety, etc.
The kind of world that libertarians pine for is the kind of world that would kill them in a month.
Anyone who hates the concept of taxes should be barred from voting. Clearly, you're too stupid to be allowed to participate.
Taxation is only necessary in a country with a heavily privatized and widely stratified property distribution. The whole purpose of the tax system is to redistribute money between groups, by way of state spending. But if you don't have these enormous strata to begin with, you don't need crazy high tax rates to handle the rebalancing.
Cuba and Laos has a very modest 20% top tax rate. Vietnam has the same top rate as the US, at 35%. North Korea doesn't have any income tax at all. It's countries like China and Japan and Germany (top rate 45% with a 20% cap gains rate) and the US (top rate 37% with a 15% cap gains rate) that need these higher brackets, because they've got these bloated upper classes.
I could easily argue that taxation is just another kind of rent, and states are just another kind of landlord, in a country where the working class has no legal claim to any of the property it occupies. And that an ideal society would have many more free-at-point-of-service public utilities, such that cash (and the taxing thereof) had a diminished purpose.
In a country where you're compelled to chase a wage in order to have any kind of legal right to exist, the taxation of working-class wages really is awful and nobody should be punished for saying so. I'm all on board with eliminating taxation for anyone earning below the living wage. And I might go further, arguing for the abolition of private taxpaying businesses that depriving people of survival necessities.
How would he react if he saw how much the shareholders and CEO make?
We need to find an argument, which is convincing to billionaires, that the world will be better for them if they and all other billionaires pay their full share of taxes.
Government can be a win for the individual, if all the other individuals are also making the same sacrifice.
So like if Joe gets taxed some of his money and he’s the only one, then Joe loses because Joe’s money can’t serve him any better being spent by someone else.
But if Joe gets taxed some of his money and so does everyone else who Joe lives with, then Joe can win by this because the effect of the commonwealth generated can benefit him more than the money would have in his own account.
Like, I’m happy to pay taxes in order to live in a society of laws and security and free open markets where I can trade with people to get things I can’t provide myself.
By giving up that 10% of my money, I’m gaining all this other wealth in the form of a stable society.
So we need to articulate how the global benefits of those billionaires’ tax money being pooled and spent on commonwealth, is better even for the billionaires than if they’d each individually kept that money.
Am I being clear here? I feel like I’m not.
Like if we went after Elon Musk and only Elon Musk for back taxes, then Elon Musk loses.
But if we go after all the billionaires for their back taxes, then the billionaires can win too, by benefitting from the overall societal improvements.
And so long as the other billionaires are also taking financial hits, any given billionaire isn’t slipping in their billionaire-vs-billionaire game of status. They’re all losing money equally across the board.
The reason to go looking for an argument that takes the billionaires’ benefits into account, is that billionaires are the only ones who can make this tax thing happen. Their influence is too great to do it against their will.
I think it is a net positive like you say, but also some people really think they know better, and also don't like their impact of politics being reduced to that of their fellows.
Can you imagine what it's like to actually be able to influence policy workout having to vote, or even to take part in collective action with other people?
It can't be good for the soul, but it's got to be habit forming.
That’s the thing man. There are enough billionaires that they have a society. Being a billionaire no longer means unilaterally changing the world, because other billionaires won’t cooperate if you’re going against their wishes.
So billionaires are no longer “above” society. They just live in a new stratum of society, but they still have to deal with the existence of their peers.
So we need to articulate how the global benefits of those billionaires’ tax money being pooled and spent on commonwealth, is better even for the billionaires than if they’d each individually kept that money.
If they pay their taxes we don't feed them to pigs. How's that for a benefit?
I can't remember who suggested it, but they framed the question differently around taxing billionaires.
Instead of making it a negative thing, they said it should be framed as a great honour to pay these "special" taxes. The billionaire tax should be kept separately from all other taxes, it should be pooled into a limited fund that they own, and should be distributed to areas where they want it to make a real impact. They should then be given additional benefits in society based on the impact generated by their fund. It notes that capitalism isn't necessarily about accumulation of wealth, but profit, and that wealth should be taxed.
For example, if Elon Musk were taxed 50% as a wealth tax, he is personally invited to the White House to discuss his plans with the tax authorities and the president. He gets to attend specific meetings to see where his money has gone (let's say to hospitals), and gets public praise for pumping several billion into public healthcare initiatives. Wealth is reframed into an opportunity to help society, whereas capitalism pushes profit.
While I don't really like the idea of billionaires choosing where taxes go, if improvements are measured on societal impact it's still better than before where they just hoard wealth.
I think that billionaires gain their wealth by gaming the system, and it seems foolish to expect them to not continue to game any new system that they're a part of. Especially given the degree of control you're suggesting.
Idk, maybe it could work. Seems like there's a lot that hinges on billionaires doing the right thing, and I'm skeptical that they would.
This seems like royalty with extra steps
Instead of the $1 menu (wait does that still exist?) they get to choose from the billionaire menu except it's required...as long as they can't lobby for the billionaire menu items which is a dream too. It would have to be programs that actually show they help people in easing financial needs of course.
Thing is, this already happens, it's just currently more in the billionaire's favor because instead of tax it's a "donation". You're proposing the same system that already exists with lobbyists and Super PACs, just more enforced. No one is going to bite that bait when they can just pay Scheister and Swindel, Attorneys at Law, to cut a private deal with the CEOs and senators of their choice, be completely unbeholden to public opinion about it, and not be required to do it again next tax season if it's not profitable to do so.
Besides, I've had quite enough of rich assholes deciding that this year they're going to donate $80m to exterminate the gays / to shut down solar startups / to arm all the cops with rocket launchers. In every situation, given the choice, they will always invest their money into whatever is most immediately profitable to them, morals or longevity be damned. This would cause our already easily-purchased politicians to be even more easily purchased and with semi public approval, as Elongated Muskrat now has a legal right to billionaire hero-worship? No thanks.
The special billionaire tax isn't an awful idea. The perks attached to it are most definitely an awful, no good, very bad idea. If something like this did get implemented it would be an absolute requirement that the investor have no say in where these taxes are spent. They may advise in certain directions, but final say should be up to a jury of some sort.
Hmmm, this might be what I need to remember which is net and which is gross!
Net is what you catch in the net, and the rest falls away.
Corruption. Mind the corruption too. A lot of tax dollars are for that.
